What's Going On At RDU - Part 1

jetpixx · Sat May 09, 2015 3:31 am

It seems that there have been some major announcements, and excitement at RDU lately. It likely warrants its own thread, especially as the new services begin this summer.

Here are some of the recent highlights:

AS announced non-stop flights to SEA beginning Oct. 1.

SEA-RDU 8:40a-4:50p
RDU-SEA 5:50p-9:00p

UA announced Friday that they will have two new non-stop flights (using E175 equipment) to DEN beginning Sept. 13.

RDU-DEN 8:20a-10:19a
DEN-RDU 10:05a-3:35p
RDU-DEN 4:10p-6:09p
DEN-RDU 5:20p-10:50p

In addition, this week marked the inaugural flights for G4 to RDU.

Flights from Raleigh/Durham go to PGD, PIE and SFB.

Also, I believe I have heard AA will have 777 flights to LHR briefly, but has that upgauge been cancelled - or will that actually be the case. I have found conflicting information.

MesaFlyGuy · Sat May 09, 2015 4:23 am

Quoting jetpixx (Thread starter):
Also, I believe I have heard AA will have 777 flights to LHR briefly, but has that upgauge been cancelled - or will that actually be the case. I have found conflicting information.

The 777 still shows on AA's website when you go to book so I'd assume it's still going to happen.

RDUDDJI · Sat May 09, 2015 3:22 pm

The last two years or so have seen some nice long haul adds for RDU. (4x LAX, 2x SFO, 1x SEA staring in Oct., 5x DEN when UA starts). I have to think that some of that wouldn't have happened if there hadn't been so much airline consolidation the last few years...

RDU has seen two new carriers announced this year (AS, G4). I was very excited (and a bit surprised) to see that AS was adding RDU-SEA. That route will be great for me.

Interestingly enough, it looks like UA has been adding the most organic new service/seats the last 2-3 years. (SFO, DEN, more mainline to IAD and IAH).

Quoting jetpixx (Thread starter):
UA announced Friday that they will have two new non-stop flights (using E175 equipment) to DEN beginning Sept. 13.

Wow, that will make 5 flights/day on three different airlines (2 WN, 1 F9, 2 UA). Never would have expected to have that much service to DEN, but I'm thankful, because I have family there.

Now my personal wish list is down to: MSY, BHM and AMS. I realize AMS will probably never happen, but I'd rather have AMS than CDG (which I think will happen in the next 5 years).

Quoting jetpixx (Thread starter):
Also, I believe I have heard AA will have 777 flights to LHR briefly, but has that upgauge been cancelled - or will that actually be the case. I have found conflicting information.

It's still showing 777 from June-early Sept.

ERJ170 · Sat May 09, 2015 4:19 pm

Great to see all this new service. Happy for the airport. Delta needs to start adding routes again before they get usurped. DL should already be offering E75/CR9 service to MSY and AUS... They should have added SEA already, and should be going out the box with MKE and SAN... But they gotSEA on the brain so they are slipping... But I think they will come around... DL has a nice love affair with RDU and, in my opinion, still wants that #1 spot.

Right now, I think TATL for RDU I son aback burner for any U.S. airline due to the stronger dollar.. But I think a European airline might start looking if they were smart....

Noise · Sat May 09, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting jetpixx (Thread starter):
UA announced Friday that they will have two new non-stop flights (using E175 equipment) to DEN beginning Sept. 13.

RDU-DEN 8:20a-10:19a
DEN-RDU 10:05a-3:35p
RDU-DEN 4:10p-6:09p
DEN-RDU 5:20p-10:50p

Wow awesome, had no idea.

What type of range do the E-jets have? I'm wondering if we can see the return of RDU-SLC with DL's E-Jets instead of with the A319.

SunsetLimited · Sat May 09, 2015 4:34 pm

In 2014, RDU-MSY averaged 81 PDEW with a yield of $0.31. If DL added it with a daily CR9, it would probably do very well. The trick would be convincing them to overfly ATL. I'd even say the market is arguably big enough for WN to add, taking into account some limited connections on both ends and nonstop traffic simulation. Just for info, WN recently started MSY-SAT, and that market is at 90 PDEW.

MesaFlyGuy · Sun May 10, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 3):
Great to see all this new service. Happy for the airport. Delta needs to start adding routes again before they get usurped. DL should already be offering E75/CR9 service to MSY and AUS... They should have added SEA already, and should be going out the box with MKE and SAN... But they gotSEA on the brain so they are slipping... But I think they will come around... DL has a nice love affair with RDU and, in my opinion, still wants that #1 spot.

I think Delta knows what they should and shouldn't do better than us. I'd love to see all that new service and uncharacteristic P2P flying (they tend not to fly P2P trancons) as much as you, but oviously Delta wouldn't.

SANFan · Sun May 10, 2015 6:38 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 3):
They should have added SEA already, and should be going out the box with MKE and SAN...

Much as I love to see you including SAN on your DL wish list from RDU, the traffic (for most of 2014) was right around 110-120 PDEW which is certainly of note but unfortunately, probably still a bit thin to support nonstop service. (Even though the traffic has been growing nicely over the last couple of years.)

The market is too long for something smaller than mainline a/c, and the nature of the market would probably not support sub-daily service - even if someone decent were to offer it.

Believe me, I'd be one of the people cheering the loudest if RDU-SAN were to happen! However, I would have to put the chances of it happening anytime soon at 'quite remote - especially from DL.'

bb

Noise · Sun May 10, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 7):
Much as I love to see you including SAN on your DL wish list from RDU, the traffic (for most of 2014) was right around 110-120 PDEW which is certainly of note but unfortunately, probably still a bit thin to support nonstop service. (Even though the traffic has been growing nicely over the last couple of years.)

The market is too long for something smaller than mainline a/c, and the nature of the market would probably not support sub-daily service - even if someone decent were to offer it.

Believe me, I'd be one of the people cheering the loudest if RDU-SAN were to happen! However, I would have to put the chances of it happening anytime soon at 'quite remote - especially from DL.'

I'm thinking Southwest or Alaska Airlines are the more likely candidates to start this route.

SANMAN66 · Sun May 10, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 7):
Believe me, I'd be one of the people cheering the loudest if RDU-SAN were to happen!

I'd be one of those people cheering too if we were to get RDU-SAN! Most of my family's from the Raleigh
area. I continue to believe it's only a matter of time. There's already nonstops from RDU to LAX,SFO,and
soon to be SEA.

SANMAN66 · Sun May 10, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 8):
I'm thinking Southwest or Alaska Airlines are the more likely candidates to start this route.

Yup! WN or AS has the right-sized aircraft. (Although DL could probably do it with an A319.) I'll take a
nonstop to RDU from SAN anyday I wouldn't care if it's out of the old, rundown, T-1!

Noise · Sun May 10, 2015 6:32 pm

The success of RDU-SFO/LAX and now SEA will only serve to demonstrate that non-stop flights from RDU to the West Coast are indeed viable. The problem with RDU-SAN is that while SEA, LAX and SFO provide plenty of connecting opportunities thanks to the AA, DL, UA and AS hubs, SAN does not offer the same opportunity (except flights with AS to Hawaii).

Even though they'd have to fly over a hub or two, I never understood why DL never ventured into flying RDU-AUS nonstop. It's a big market and perfectly doable with an RJ.

SANFan · Sun May 10, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 8):
I'm thinking Southwest or Alaska Airlines are the more likely candidates to start this route.

Definitely, but again, I don't expect to see either of them jump in the near-term future. (As of a couple of years ago, I would think AS would have offered a real possibility. Not any more.)

There are a few other cities with more traffic, yet no nonstops from SAN, that I would think WN would be more likely to start first.

Quoting Noise (Reply 11):
The problem with RDU-SAN is that while SEA, LAX and SFO provide plenty of connecting opportunities thanks to the AA, DL, UA and AS hubs, SAN does not offer the same opportunity

Exactly. SAN would have to be pretty much supported mostly by O&D traffic, which there is a fairly good supply of, but, as I said earlier, not quite enough.

WN would prolly offer the greatest connecting potential thru SAN but again, I just don't see enough of it.

All this being said, I would love to be proved wrong by WN -- or anyone!

bb

Noise · Tue May 12, 2015 6:31 pm

Now that UA has added flights to DEN from RDU, any chance we'll see them add flights to LAX hub as well?

wolfpacker · Wed May 20, 2015 10:07 pm

I see WN adding a few ATL and DEN flights.

Good to see.

Hope this keeps thread alive.

ERJ170 · Wed May 20, 2015 11:26 pm

Actually, WN is adding +1 to TPA, MCO, and seasonal FLL returns... There's another +1 but I can't remember where. So far, the only stagnant airline is AC... I hope RDUAA is reaching out to WestJet and/or Porter for additional Canadian lift

Noise · Thu May 21, 2015 2:36 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 15):
So far, the only stagnant airline is AC... I hope RDUAA is reaching out to WestJet and/or Porter for additional Canadian lift

Mainly because the RDU-Canada market has been pretty stagnant for the past decade. The tech bubble burst in 2000 and Canada's tech industry hasn't really recovered since.

YUL might be the only other market that can support service to RDU.

MAH4546 · Thu May 21, 2015 3:54 am

Quoting Noise (Reply 13):
Now that UA has added flights to DEN from RDU, any chance we'll see them add flights to LAX hub as well?

It's already an over-capacity bloodbath, with AA and DL obviously happy to dump capacity and not cede to each other.

Besides, UA is cutting from LAX, not adding.

rtalk25 · Thu May 21, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 11):
I never understood why DL never ventured into flying RDU-AUS nonstop.

I think it's a route WN would consider and maybe soon with the momentum of the AUS increases from the last extension.

Noise · Thu May 21, 2015 1:19 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 17):
Besides, UA is cutting from LAX, not adding.

I'd expect them to start expanding at LAX soon since they're dumping half a billion dollars into revamping their terminals.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 18):
I think it's a route WN would consider and maybe soon with the momentum of the AUS increases from the last extension.

Has WN been expanding out of AUS? Who are the major players there and who's been expanding as of late?

MAH4546 · Thu May 21, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 19):
I'd expect them to start expanding at LAX soon since they're dumping half a billion dollars into revamping their terminals.

While losing four gates.

ATAIndy · Thu May 21, 2015 4:36 pm

I recently checked DL's summer schedule out of IND and 2x RDU-IND are the only DL ER4 flights this summer. Hopefully there is enough demand to upgrade to EMB-170's after the draw down of 50-seaters. RDU is the only non-leisure P2P left at IND.

Noise · Thu May 21, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 20):
While losing four gates.

Ah thanks, I had no idea.

rtalk25 · Thu May 21, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 19):
Has WN been expanding out of AUS? Who are the major players there and who's been expanding as of late?

There are many players there including AS, VX, B6, G4, F9, but WN is the largest and has been expanding. AUS-EWR goes 2x daily (at MSY-EWR's expense), AUS-SEA and AUS-BOS will be added later in the year. AUS-SNA and AUS-STL are added in the summer, and AUS-PDX has some seasonal service.

I'd think AUS-MKE, RDU, CLE and PIT would be possible with WN being the only nonstop airline and able to funnel connections through as well, and maybe WN would add back AUS-PHL where AA/US has just one flight/day. It has AUS-OAK but maybe it'd add AUS-SFO. WN wouldn't need to compete with UA like in Houston as directly, nor deal with the likes of NK as much.

On RDU, I'd think maybe it could add RDU-MKE as well but that'd be of lower priority to RDU-AUS. Atleast MKE might be still used for some surburbs of Chicago region and there is some connecting activity on the MKE side.

[Edited 2015-05-21 10:23:07]

wolfpacker · Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:02 pm

Article about RDU .. I always thought it was a good event when AA left.

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/...ould-know-rdu-airport-raleigh.html

Noise · Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting wolfpacker (Reply 24):
Article about RDU .. I always thought it was a good event when AA left.

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/...ould-know-rdu-airport-raleigh.html

Frankly, I believe the thing that will differentiate RDU from other former hubs (PIT, MEM, CLE, etc) will be the addition of a second long-haul destinations.

ncflyer · Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:03 pm

Agreed on long haul #2 if it happens, that would be a big bonus.

As a fomer Trianglite (is that a word?), now living in CLE, one thing about that article is that it's disingenuous to include CLE as a comparison of a hub that hasn't recovered as well as RDU. CLE lost it's hub just over 12 months ago, and has had FANTASTIC recovery in a very short amount of time, frankly it's been perhaps the quickest hub to recover, but it's not in the same league yet as RDU or BNA or STL (with all those WN flights at the latter two). Raleigh lost it's hub, what over a decade ago, maybe even more? Give CLE another 12-24 months, maybe even a bit more pruning from UA and it'll be in the same league as RDU, with possible exception being the international frequency.

Noise · Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:11 pm

RDU lost its AA hub in 1995 and then the Midway hub in 2001.

Former hubs that one can argue haven't fully recovered would be CMH, CVG, PIT, STL and MEM. RDU, BNA, and even SJC seemed to have recovered just fine but it took over a decade to fully recover. The verdict is still out in CLE but I agree that the flood of new entrants into the market is encouraging.

In the event a second long-haul destination is added out of RDU, is it a given that it will be to CDG? Will it be with DL? 757 or 767?

[Edited 2015-06-02 15:11:52]

jetpixx · Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:17 am

I received a strange alert on my phone about Raleigh-Durham International Airport and Paris, with some sort of announcement set for 10am tomorrow or Friday. I cannot find it again.

Anyway, has anyone heard anything? Is a new airline planning service from RDU-CDG, or even to ORY? Is the long-rumored RDU-CDG flight from DL about to be announced?

It sounds like RDU is about to get another international flight.

jetpixx · Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:18 am

Sorry, I searched and didn't see the other thread about RDU-CDG. Ugh. Mods, please delete - unless others want to talk about other goings-on at RDU.

thegreatRDU · Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:18 pm

How are the G4 flights performing?

ERJ170 · Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:19 pm

Seattle starts in about a week.. that's gonna be cool to see another tail...

thegreatRDU · Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:08 pm

I would love to see Virgin America or Spirit come to RDU we'll see what the future has in store.

jetpixx · Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:13 pm

Just for fun I checked the airline listings for employment at RDU. I noticed quite a few listings from American Airlines. Does anybody know if AA is expanding and/or offering new flights? Or is this just generally the norm in preparation for summer travel?

kotoka · Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:45 pm

Quoting jetpixx (Thread starter):

Just for fun I checked the airline listings for employment at RDU. I noticed quite a few listings from American Airlines. Does anybody know if AA is expanding and/or offering new flights? Or is this just generally the norm in preparation for summer travel?

Where do you see that? On careers.aa.com, I only see a part-time customer service agent position listed. I don't see AA expanding much at RDU. RDU is pretty well connected for a non-hub airport. With DL commencing CDG this summer, the only "holes" in the route map are domestic destinations IMO. AUS, MSY, MCI, SAN come to mind. For AA specifically, BOS would be a nice addition. And maybe a weekly to SJU, although not sure how much demand there is now with the zika outbreak.

MesaFlyGuy · Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:18 am

Quoting jetpixx (Thread starter):
Does anybody know if AA is expanding and/or offering new flights?

A representative from Trans States recently told me that a crew base is opening there (I forgot the timeline she gave me).

ERJ170 · Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:52 am

From what I can tell, the "hub" holes are as follows:

AA: PHX, BOS
AS: PDX, SAN
AC: YUL
B6: MCO
DL: AMS, SEA
F9: ???
UA: LAX
G4: ???
WN: ???

Airlines that could appear: NK, WJ, PD, Mexican airline to MEX

Destinations that could appear: AUS, SJU, MCI, SAN, MSY, PVD, NAS or HAV

AVLAirlineFreq · Thu Mar 24, 2016 6:19 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 3):
DL: AMS, SEA

SLC will be back on and then off that list again at some point, right?

Noise · Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:33 pm

Not sure what else we'll see out of RDU. DL doesn't like to overfly its ATL hub and WN hasn't expanded out of RDU in quite some time. If we're going to see AUS, it might be WN...I doubt DL would step in and overfly its ATL hub. Same with SAN. I think AS might be in the mix with SAN which might make the addition of the route a little more likely.

jetpixx · Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:07 am

It appears UA did not care for DL stepping on their turf with EWR-RDU flights, as UA has stepped up and added LGA-RDU flights with E170 equipment.

Is RDU the next battleground for UA and DL? Will we see ORD-RDU by DL as a response, or even IAH-RDU? It sure is fun to watch.

rajincajun01 · Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:31 am

Interesting move by UA. Can't help but notice that AA continues to stand on the sideline at RDU as their market share continues to shrink.

11725Flyer · Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:43 am

What are odds that DL could start RDU-LHR in a few years? If they did, AA would be in a tough position to continue based on the strength of the JV with VS.

rajincajun01 · Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:52 am

RDU can't support two LHR and a CDG without connecting traffic. AA has a lot of contracts in the RDU area with businesses plus they make a ton on their cargo with that flight. Many don't realize that flight has been around for 25 years.

TWA772LR · Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:37 am

Quoting jetpixx (Thread starter):
Will we see ORD-RDU by DL as a response, or even IAH-RDU?

I Can See ORD-RDU eventually on DL, but not IAH-RDU. Houston fliers are very loyal to UA on the upper end and WN on the lower. If the current RDU DL/UA flair up continues, expect to see more UA mainline in Raleigh.

ERJ170 · Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:01 am

So, a couple of questions...

1) when will the Terminal2 gate swap happen?
2) what gates is being transformed to an international gate at RDU?
3) any NEW airline rumors?
4) which alternative do you like from the Vision 2040 presentation?

Noise · Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:49 am

Would love to see LAX-RDU on UA.

JDAirCEO · Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:45 am

RDU is the airport I grew up traveling from and now fly into frequently but I don't understand some of the planning. Today between Terminal 1 and 2 there are 11 unassigned gates. Terminal 1 has five and Terminal 2 has six. WN could have easily operated from Terminal 2 with two spare gates, why remodel the old Terminal A? Why not mothball the terminal until there was a need, if there ever is one, then remodel? Given that every gate iat Terminal 2 is Common Use the gates could easily be distributed based upon demand. I know the unassigned gates are often used as overflow but I've never known all six extra gates to be occupied.

Also, why split Terminal 2 into concourse C and D when it's effectively one continuous space?

Regardless of the above the landscaping around the airport is some of the nicest I've seen at any US airport.

ERJ170 · Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:06 am

Why remodel Terminal 1. Because WN did not want to go to Terminal 2. WN did not want to pay the cost of replacing Terminal 2. WN wanted to keep its cost down. And because WN stated they would be able to expand to fill the gates in Terminal 1.

So RDU decided to have a Legacy Terminal and a Low Cost Terminal. Terminal was originally meant for WN AND B6. But B6 wanted Terminal 2. Frontier wanted Terminal 2. Even Allegient wanted Terminal 2, which I thought was odd. If Spirit ever gets to RDU, it makes you wonder where they will go.

Terminal 2 is CUTE but it seems the airlines are possessive of "their" gates. AA got all 3 international gates and was hogging them. You see they still haven't reshuffled with the AA/US merger because airlines like their gates and don't want to give them up.

And Terminal 2 was split into 2 concourses because it still has room to grow. Concourse D side was built four quick expansion at the end for future growth. I belief Concourse C was too. If it was started at 1 on one end and then they decided to expand, they would have to renumber everything instead of just adding C26-32, for example.

I, however would have made a different move and made C1, C3, D1, and D3 the international gates.. But that's just me.. If more were needed, I would have been able to expand to C5, D5... But hey! I didn't make the decisions.

rajincajun01 · Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:51 pm

AA is far from hogging the international gates. They use C23 and C25 for their operations. C24 is a city hate that all have access to. During seasonal Cancun service season, AA slides over to use C24 for their LHR flight and Delta uses C23 and C25.

C21 will eventually be glassed in to make it an international hate as well.

The lack of international growth planning of the airport authority is the problem, not AA "hogging" gates.

RDUDDJI · Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:33 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 8):
I, however would have made a different move and made C1, C3, D1, and D3 the international gates.. But that's just me.. If more were needed, I would have been able to expand to C5, D5... But hey! I didn't make the decisions.

That was one of my comments when I toured T2 when it opened. Why put the Int'l gates at the location *farest* from the FIS? I got an unofficial answer that it was due to the ramp space (or lack thereof) in the middle gates. That may be true. To get say a 777 in there would probably require such an angle that it would make the next two gates unusable.

My other main gripe of T2 is that there's no direct escalator down to baggage from the Terminal...pax have to go up to get down (insert James Brown reference). Doesn't affect me much as I don't check bags and park in the decks, but it does cause a traffic jam near where fam/friends are waiting for inboulnd pax.

Quoting JDAirCEO (Reply 7):
RDU is the airport I grew up traveling from and now fly into frequently but I don't understand some of the planning. Today between Terminal 1 and 2 there are 11 unassigned gates. Terminal 1 has five and Terminal 2 has six.

T2 was planned before the recent era of airline consolidation. Since that time, some of the RJ flying has gone away and capacity has been replaced with bigger airplanes and less frequencies (RDU-IAD is an example).

That being said, I think almost all gates on T2 are used at some point during the day. Some of the high D gates are not fully utilized for sure, but used for IROPS, RONs, charters, etc. Nice to have a little room for expansion. Where else would DL put all their new flights....

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