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jaysit
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Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Fri Feb 09, 2001 11:49 pm

http://www.msnbc.com/news/528686.asp

I knew that Boeing were working on a blended design project, but had no idea that it would seat 800 passengers or that it was a serious consideration for their next big project.

Looks like a case of pie in the face for the Boeing spokespersons who not so long ago said "there is no market for a very large airliner."

Frankly, this announcement appears to be either a case of the press jumping the gun (as usual), or Boeing attempting to win the PR battle against Airbus (and pick up a few points in the stock market as a result).
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
cwapilot
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 12:16 am

Boeing never said there would never be a market for VLAs. They have said that, at present, and along the timetable of Airbus's predictions in regards to the A380 market, there would not be a market of sufficient size to warrant a $12 billion investment. The blended wing VLA being studied would not have an entry date until after 2013, when the A380 (all 80 to 100 that will be built) are old news.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
JAL
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 12:29 am

I agree with Cwapilot in that Boeing never said that there would be no market for VLA, they only said that there is no sufficient demand in the timetable Airbus provided.


Can't wait for the new Boeing!!!!!!!!!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
jaysit
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 12:40 am

I believe that Boeing are reevaluating their projections on VLAs.

By the time 2013 rolls around, the market will have matured even further for VLAs, with A380s (unless they prove to be a total aeronautic dud which is highly unlikely) having established a foothold in the industry - if Airbus delivers on the performance projections.

A blended wing VLA would probably cost a lot more than $ 12 Billion to develop. In 2013 dollar terms, project costs might run into $ 40-50 billion.

In any case, its all a moot point. Apparently, there is a market for A380s or else 60 wouldnt have been ordered as of today. Plus, in 10 years, the current crop of 744s will be 20+ years old and due for retirement. With annual pax growth projections of 5-8% annually, the A380 (both versions) is poised to step in and take their place. I suspect you'll see more than 100 alone in the fourth year of production ~ 2007.

Yeah, its cool to see a blended wing design move from concept to product, and I bet that Boeing will then make the same arguments touted by Airbus in favor of their VLA - yes, of course, there is a market, etc etc etc.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 12:41 am

I think one of the reasons why Boeing may have an "ace in the hole" with the BWB jetliner is the fact the plane offers a LOT of advantages over the A380.

I mean look at the following advantages:

1. It can carry up to 300 more passengers than the A380 does now.

2. If it incorporates folding wings the BWB can actually take up LESS gate ramp space than a 777-200ER!

3. The plane's design has a lot of natural lift, so very likely BWB won't require the 747-length runway requirements that the A380 needs.

4. The plane has 20% lower seat mile costs than even the A380. That translates to very long range (e.g., JFK-HKG on an 800-seat BWB is easily achieved).

5. Because of the larger interior space, there is much more flexibility in seating and lounge space areas.

I think right now Boeing has quietly formed a study group in partnership with a number of airlines interested in this plane--especially UA, NW, CA, CI, JL and KE.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 12:41 am

What about the Airbus BWB? Here's the link to a recent Flug Revue article:

AIRBUS STUDIES FUTURE AIRLINER CONCEPTS
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH0101/FR0101e.htm



 
jaysit
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 1:07 am

Exactly, Curious66 !

Both manufacturers have been proposing the blended wing concept for a few years now, but what made the MSNBC news report different (and stupefying) was that it suggested that a) Boeing was planning on taking it from concept to manufacture in the near future, and b) that they were planning on making the Blended wing Aircraft a VLA. Of course, it could be the popular press getting its facts wrong again.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
mt99
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 2:39 am

It just seems petty that Boieng is publicing this at this moment. If it not scehduled to be built until 2010+, I think that the like to be the center of attention, which is now being stolen by Airbus.
Step into my office, baby
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:26 am

Boy, I am really looking forward to getting stuck in the middle seat in a 12-20-12 seat configuration. Although, it might be better than a window seat which will have a tremendous arc every time the aircraft banks. Talk about a vomit comet.  Wink/being sarcastic
 
cwapilot
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:52 am

Wow, everything from "they're just trying to steal Airbus' moment of glory" to our aeronautical engineers letting us know exactly why such a far out concept will never fly....Maybe it is that Boeing has a handle on the future, and is willing to do the homework behind taking commercial aviation on a real technological leap, not just taking what we already have and making it bigger. Maybe they are seriously considering building this aircraft, and, as they have said, build a family of aircraft of various capacities around it. When the A3XX idea began to circulate, it was circulated in the same way. I would think that the fact that both manufacturers have looked at and considered this radical new design (fr commercial transport) and at least one is looking at it seriously, would excite anyone interested in aviation.....I am sounding like all the A380 groupies, and the A380 groupies bashing this new concept are sounding like the A380 bashers they like to lecture. "If people thought like you when the 747 was coming out, it never would have flown", etc. But, this does fit in with the attitude of Airbus groupies that the A380 is somehow the end-all, be-all of commerical aviation, which it is not.

Grow up....we won't be flying around in metal tubes forever....this should be something to look forward to.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
mt99
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 4:14 am

Great my Seat number is "15M"!
Step into my office, baby
 
jaysit
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 4:20 am

It is something to look forward to ! It's probably going to make the whole idea of flying around in a pressurized tube seated above a large fuel tank seem positively absurd in 40 years.

It's just very surprising that the design in its first commercial incarnation is being scaled up to a VLA project. That - and Boeing's public comments on VLAs make the whole report seem out of whack.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
gerardo
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 4:41 am

Does Boeing really want to kill us????????????????????

Imagine a crash with such a huge bird, which besides nobody needs.


 Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Heya, Airbus fans (me included), let's start to copy and paste all those silly anti A380 posts!! This will be fun!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
RIX
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RE: Gerardo

Sat Feb 10, 2001 4:51 am

Why copy and paste? You, guys, are no less creative and innovative in this area! Big grin
 
watewate
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:10 am

Just a few things...

If Boeing goes ahead with BWB, it's likely that A380 customers will order BWB as an insurance policy. And if BWB performs markedly better than A380, it still has a chance in the market place.

Folding wings were an option on 777, yet no one (I'm aware of) has ordered that option. Could it be the same for BWB?

How does Boeing plan to make derivatives out of BWB? It's not as easy as cutting the fuselage or plugging it in.

How fast can Boeing evacuate the plane especially with people in the middle of the fuselage that are far away from the windows?

Lastly, travelling public have to get used to flying in an 'opera hall' like space. We're so used to flying in aluminum cigar tube that for some people (esp. those in the middle section), it will be quite awkward flying at first.
 
jaysit
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:27 am

I'm sure that Boeing (and Airbus) have addressed the passenger comfort, safety issues, as well as the manufacturing imbroglios. I guess the fuel tanks would be at the rear of the aircraft closer to the rear mounted engines. Correct me, if I'm wrong, b/c I haven't seen much information on the design elements of such a plane.

However, such an aircraft will be a HUGE investment for Boeing (or Airbus, should they decide to enter the fray as well) in terms of design and manufacturing. It would revolutionize not only aircraft design, but systems engineering, manufacturing, component manufacturers AND not the least, airport design.

I seriously doubt if such a blended wing VLA would be a fixture in the skies in the next 10 years. Perhaps, its the future of air travel, but it aint gonna happen for awhile.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
gerardo
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:34 am

Back to serious discussion.

Jaysit, you said: "I guess the fuel tanks would be at the rear of the aircraft closer to the rear mounted engines."

I think, this would cause problems with the balance. The amount of fuel will be enourmous. Or am I wrong?

Regards
Gerardoh
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:37 am

I read that the proposed BWB will have no windows. You get to watch the outside view on a monitor. Talk about feeling claustrophobic!

This is a Boeing South idea (McDonnell Douglas). This concept was talked about at least 5 years ago before Boeing had bought McDD and was on a back burner until now.

IMHO, I think it's just Boeing South's desperate attempt to remain in Southern CA when the 717 program fizzles out. In short, it's a pipe dream.

Nut
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:48 am

According to the drawing from the LA Times (which had the original article), the fuel tanks would be in the outer sections of the wing.

By the way, Boeing is aware of the issue of that during a banked turn the outer seats on the plane will move up and down quite a lot, which can definitely cause motion sickness. One way Boeing might address is during turns the plane banks at a shallower angle, but use the winglets on the end of the wing as fully-moveable surfaces to turn the plane.

Boeing is also working on means to evacuate everyone off the plane quickly; they have said the front wing edge will have extra large emergency doors, and there will also be doors on the top and bottom surfaces of the wing for evacuations from the back of the passenger compartment.

Sure, development costs won't be cheap (we are talking US$12 billion in 2001 dollars), but the numerous advantages over the A380's conventional design may make it worthwhile.
 
cruising
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:52 am

People who watched "Building Giant" on TLC few days ago might rember this. According to the program, some people believe that in the future Boeing adn Airbus might have to work together to creat BWB aircraft, because there are so many engineering challeges they have to go through. And also don't forget about its development cost.

It seems unlikly at this point Boeing and Airbus ever work together in near future, but you never know in 2010 and beyond.

 
767ALLTHEWAY
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 6:12 am

Imagine, If youre on along flight at night and you have to go the bathroom and youre on a window seat. You would have to wake up and squeeze past 10 people just to get to the aisile. Obviosuly im just kiding, would it have 4-6 aisles?
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear"
 
Ryefly
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 7:15 am

If looks like that model on that TLC show I know I wouldn't want to be on that thing. With all those people on board and no windows it would be too clostaphobic for me. I guess it would be like a moving movie theater. Now if the thing went into space or something I could understand, but I would rather take a 747 or A380 if they were offered on the same route just because you can actually look outside from in it.
 
N312RC
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 7:20 am

It will NEVER happen.

BTW, I am NOT a fan of plastic airplanes.
 
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Winds Aloft
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 7:46 am

Well, I for one don't care if the BWB has fewer windows than current airliners. I mean, most people on a 747/777 aren't even seated next to a window to begin with. At least with the BWB, every seat would have a view of the outside via the individual monitors. Besides, the BWB is probably going to be used on long-haul flights. Passengers will be spending more time asleep or watching the in-flight movie than looking out the window. If the BWB design can cut down on flight times from, say, New York-Tokyo, by any significant amount, than I say Boeing should go for it. Windows be damned.
 
AC330
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 2:53 pm

I really have to admit i do not at all like the flying wing idea!! I would hate not being able to sit by a window!! I am much more a fan of flying on airliners with a fuselage!! I would avoid flying on it at all costs!! Well maybe i would just once to say i did it but i really don't think i like the idea.
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:14 pm

I think that this might fly if the following happen:

1) Airline alliances might have to go in together on these aircraft for flights between their (usually very busy) hubs. For instance, AA, BA, CX would get together on flights to and from LHR, JFK, and HKG. This would avoid duplication of service and provide the economies of scale.

2) The airlines make a point of putting up a sort of stand-up lounge in front where people enter, maybe with fold-down seats and a soft drink bar. I know I'd fly up there. On the top deck there'd be a sort of skylight window and on the bottom deck there'd be a panoramic spectacular view. I would kill to get that view on my plane. And imagine how quiet it would be all the way up front...

3) They'd also have to radically reform the lighting inside so that it was more incandescent and softer than flourescent. Also, the air quality would have to come up.

4) I think that the airlines'd have to take a few simple steps to ensure that passengers don't kill themselves over these long flights

a) Make the seats just a tiny bit wider to accomodate two armrests for each passenger

b) Increase legroom just 10% and allow the seats to go farther back.

c) Do whatever it takes to give the passengers Internet connections and on-demand movies if they want. In 2010 there will be virtual retinal displays so as to give them the entertainment they want.

5) The large size of the aircraft makes it easy to have a sort of "Family Zone" where the kids can annoy each other all they want. Heck, the kids could all be one one floor!
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:42 pm

I was gonna ignore this postsbecause I though it was just a rumour or a Boeing fad. However, i was deemmed wrong.

It looks spectacluar but is 3 engines enough? I doubt it. Also, 800 pax? I thought Boeing said there wasn't enough a market. Well shove that! I'm happy. I hope Boeing gets a move on and as someone rightly said. This could be an insurance policy for the A380 airlines, however I think this is more risky.

Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Boeing Plans New 800 Pax Blended Wing Jet

Sun Feb 11, 2001 1:31 am

Pictures of the proposed plane appeared in today's Miami Herald. Talk about UGLY!!!!
a.

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