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BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:35 am

Hi,

British Airways wants to cut capacity. Virgin Atlantic wants to add capacity. Who is making the right decision?

http://www.flightinternational.com/ficurrent/airtrans.asp

Rgds,
Joe
 
Guest

RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:41 am

I think Virgin is making the right decision using the high capacity 747-400s on some of it's North American routes to the UK. During the busy summer tourist season they will need these aircraft to handle the large crowds flying from the USA to the UK.
 
b744
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:41 am

Seems that one is a growing airline and one is a dying airline. Well, maybe not 'dying', but BA are certainly cutting back on routes.

Having read the book 'Dirty Tricks - BA's secret war against Virgin Atlantic', It's great to see VS doing so well at BA's expense.


 
KLM747
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:48 am

It looks like Virgin is gaining now. Too bad BA is backing out on some of their routes, and replacing some 747s.  Sad

KLM747 Big grin
 
cba
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:51 am

What you all don't realize is that BA is gaining more profit, even though they are lowering capacity. They probably make more money flying completely filled 777's over 75% filled 744's.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:52 am

Wait until the economy starts to really hurt... VS will be stuck with those huge 744s and BA will have the more efficient, more profitable 777s.

The days of the jumbos have come and gone.

DeltaSFO
 
Superfly
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 11:16 am

Sounds like a bad idea to me.
I would never fly BA 777 to London. I would much rather fly BA 747 or VS A340 or 747s.
 
blink182
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 11:51 am

Doesn't BA have one of the biggest 747 fleets in the world? Now they want to replace them? Sounds like a pretty sad idea if you ask me.
rgds,
blink182
 
Guest

RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 11:57 am

I don't think all of BA 744s are leaving. I could be wrong, it does not sound like it.
DeltaSFO, I would say its always been like this. Many airlines have this problem with the jumbos. They can fill em up during the peak, but off-peak, they are a big money drain.
-Tom
 
Samurai 777
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 11:57 am

If BA does get the 777-300s, would that make it the first non-Asian customer to order this variant of the 777?

BTW, I hope it won't be long before BA can use 777s or more 744s on the LHR-YVR route! The 742s have got to go. Big grin
 
tupolev154b2
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 12:05 pm

In October or so Air France ordered the 777-300ER. Therefore, no.
 
baec777
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 12:07 pm

Best for BA to stick with their B744s a while longer, maybe another 10 years now before considering for the 777-300 longer stretch / longer range jets.


Baec777  Big thumbs up
 
b757300
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 12:11 pm

I wonder if this will quite the rumor that BA is about to order the A380?
 
thomacf
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 12:16 pm

If BA can't use the 747 efficiently, then why would anyone want a bigger 747 or A380?
 
thomacf
Posts: 532
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 12:19 pm

Let me get this clear. BA has 56 747's, how many will be left after the -200's are gone and the -400's that they are trading in.
 
travelin man
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 12:51 pm

According to the article, BA currently has 56 747-400s, and 15 747 classics, which will be retired within 18 months. Therefore, BA currently has 71 747s (all types).
 
ba319-131
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 3:44 pm

The 773 order would be for between 10-12 aircraft.However BA is demanding an increase in the MTOW.This increase would rule out the latest RR Trent engine as being too small,leaving BA having to go back to the GE90.So don't expect an order soon as BA wants to stick with the RR Trent's.

BA319-131
 
BlatantEcho
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BA319-131---

Wed Feb 21, 2001 3:54 pm

You are half right. BA is trying to help along Boeing in making an increased MTOW 773 to fit between the standard 300t 773 and the 3XXt 773ER. 319t would be the intermeditate 773, as the GE clause states that anything over that weight must have the GE90 on it. If the 319t goes through, BA will not have to get the GE engines.

BlatantEcho
 
Logos
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Wed Feb 21, 2001 3:59 pm

BA is looking for a way here to reduce capacity with minimal capital outlay. The 747-400s they are trading will have good value to someone for some time. It is something of an extension of what they are doing replacing their 757s with A-318s.

The article said that they are trying to find a way to make a RR-Trent with greater thrust that is nonetheless below the 700,000 lb limit over which GE is the exclusive engine supplier for the 777. In essence, BA is asking for a completely new variant of the 777 just for their needs.

It's an indication of the extremely competitive nature of the commercial aircraft industry that Boeing is even discussing this, especially after BA screwed them by not taking the 717 after they kindly brokered the disposal of BAs 757s.

Cheers,
Dave in Berlin
 
JumboClassic
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Thu Feb 22, 2001 12:48 am

Very smart move IMHO. BA is trying to be more competitive by increasing its profit, instead of adding capacity. More capacity doesn't necessarily mean more profit, as some airlines have found out the hard way. Considering the increase in fuel costs, swapping the 744 with 773 seems very reasonable.
JC
 
RIX
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Thu Feb 22, 2001 1:19 am

Who is making the right decision? Why can't BOTH? Why can't VS get 747s if BA replaces them, and vice versa? Or do all the airlines have to be of the same size and fleet?

About "Dirty Tricks..." - don't be naive, no airline has angels in its management. "at BA's expense" - does BA pay for 747s for VS?  Smile
 
nwa747-400
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:28 am

DeltaSFO:

I think across the atlantic the 747s days have come and gone, but acrosse the pacific the 747s continue to be needed and thrive. I think you were just talking about tran-atlantic 747s right?
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:37 am

It depends, I hink BA is turning into a "Business" airline. Look at it, they hardly care for the Economy class passengers do they? I've had that feeling since 1995

Also, I think Virgin offers better inflight service. Especially those massages and whatever.

However, I think that BA is doing the right thing. And Virgin is doing the right thing. Virgin are meeting demand, and BA are cutting capacity as people aren't flying with them too much.

So both are doing the right thing.

However I prefer Virgin, as they have great IFE, IFS, the seats are nice and the F/As are nice and the uniform for the women look nice. Also, Singapore Airlines owns 49% (worth £600 million), of Virgin so profits for VS = profit for SIA!!

Whoppweee!
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:59 am

Singapore is the best exponent of filling 744s I feel(they fill them to capacity regularly on many routes), and it looks like VS are trying to following their example. BA are adopting a different strategy, they have more slot, so they use smaller sized planes in order to get higher payloads, whereas VS have fewer slots, but choose the larger aircraft to meet capacity.
 
Guest

RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Sun Feb 25, 2001 9:38 am

I hope that Rolls Royce does come out with a new 800 series engine with thrust over 100,000lbs that can be put on the new 777-300ER, so that many airlines that currently have RR Trent 800 powered 777-200ERs such as BA, AA, SIA & DL that do not want the GE90 can order these aircraft.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:14 am

It is not a matter of whether Rolls can come up with a more powerful Trent 800 engine. The exclusive agreement between GE and Boeing excludes Rolls from being able to offer such an engine. The likelihood of two of the four airlines you listed to eventually have GE powered B772LR and/or B773ER is extremely good. Just mark my word.

It is interesting to observe that people (of who many with no airline marketing experience) slight BA's decision. BA's decision does not mean there is no room for aircraft like the A380. However, from a management perspective, BA's approach is more conservative (therefore, less risky). Do remember, BA is probably still the largest B747 operator in the trans-Atlantic market, while many US carriers have long switched to the B763ER as their trans-Atlantic workhorse. Both sides are successful in their own way. Thus, both strategies could work provided they are properly managed. BA's strategy is just as sound as VS's.

 
Guest

RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:32 am

Don't count on AA getting the GE90 777-200LR or 300ER, they LOVE their RR Trent 800 series engines on their current 777-200ERs which is why they are ordering more of them to replace their DC-10/MD-11 aircraft.
 
Guest

RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:39 am

What is the difference between the 777-200ER and 200LR models that they can only offer the GE90 engine on the 200LR and not the P&W 4000 and RR Trent 800 series engines?
 
ryanair
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:57 am

BA's current 777's have GE90's and not Trents.

I don't think selling 744's right now is a good idea, their book price has just gone through the floor, to the point many Wall St types are looking at new formulars to value airlines (currently their assets are not used) because they fear the effect could be so great.

Having said that BA may well find the money they save with 777's is greater than the 747 write off (which will have to be made at some point anyway).

IF VS can fill it 747's (which it seems like it can) then taking advantage of currently lower prices to upgrade, seems to make good sence. Remember they are the launch customer of the A340 stretch.
 
Guest

RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:55 am

BA has a mixed bag of 777s that have both GE90 and Rolls Royce Trent 895 engines. They were the launch customer for the GE90 on the 777. They had an order for some Rolls Royce RB211 powered 747-400s that they cancelled in favor of more new 777-200ERs. Because they could not cancel the engine order with Rolls Royce, they opted instead for the 95,000lb thrust Trent 895 on these new 777-200ERs which they are very happy with.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Mon Feb 26, 2001 5:46 am

TEDSKI:

In one of your earlier posts, you asserted that four airlines, DL, AA, BA and SQ, would not order the B772LR and/or 773ER with the GE90 engines. I replied that two out of the four would likely order the new B777 derivatives. I didn't name which are the two, but I'd agree with you that AA would not be a likely candidate, at least not in the next few years. However, I would not describe AA loves their Trent engines. How would they know either the GE90 or the PW4000 could not be better if they don't have them in their fleet? Since the EK B777 incident in MEL, Trent 800 operators have to inspect their fan blades evey 100 cycles or so. I doubt AA would love to do that.

Technically, there is no real technical issues stopping Rolls from developing a Trent 800 that is capable of powering the new B777. Contractually, Boeing would not be able to offer such an engine even if Rolls has one ready.
 
raggi
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Mon Feb 26, 2001 6:11 am

If BA orders the standard 773 instead of the GE90 powered -300ER, they are not smart..
Ordering a less capable aircraft simply because the engines are not built in Derby does not make sense.

To both Dynkrisolo and Tedski, I think AA is a likely candidate for the new Longer Range 777s. Being a staunch GE customer, they won`t rule out those excellent aircraft just because they aren`t avaible with Trents. But they might not see the need for the ultra-long range -200LR or higher capacity -300ER right now, and instead get more 200ERs. But if the LR 777s are needed in AA`s future plans they will order them.


raggi
 
VirginA340
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:05 am

NWA 747-400;

Dleta SFO is not only trying to say that the 747s across the Atlantic is gone but the Pacific 747 divison eventually might fade if airlines go for more flights a day on smaller planes like the A340-600 or the 777-300 than less on a 747. Bear in mind that there were many airline who did order the 747 back in the 60s but then got rid of them in the 70s and early 80s because it was just too big for their route structure. For example AA went with the DC-10 rather than the 747s so they traded with PA 747s for DC-10s after the disasterous National merger. EAL had gone for the L-1011s and a handful of DC-10s when they used to fly ATL-LGW and MIA-LGW. Even though there were 4 EAL 747-100s they were sold to TWA (One was TWA 800; R.I.P) the 747 was just too big for them. As planes get more fuel and maintinace efficient the planes that use up more cost will be be left behind while newer more fuel and maintinace efficient planes take over.
 
Akira
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Mon Feb 26, 2001 12:08 pm

BA has no plans at this time to order any 773's, nor does it have any plans to scale back its fleet of 57 744's. It IS phasing out its fleet of now 15 742's and serving those routes with 772's. The reason it will not order the 773's is because of the shorter range. Routes currently served by 742's will never be served by 744's because those are for really long-range, like to Australia. Some routes operated by 744's may be served in the future by 772's, because of the cost (747 has 4 engines, 777 has 2). As for whoerver said they would rather fly to london on a 742 than a 777, I've been on both, and the 777 is a lot better, more modern, and has like 18 video channels, even in economy, compared to the 742's, which have none.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Mon Feb 26, 2001 6:27 pm

Welcome Akria.
It was reported in a press release that BA was interested in the 773 to replace up to 12 744's mainly on US routes. I love both aircraft and probably more the 744.

Scott.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:26 pm

I think that BA may order the 777-300ER.

And don't worry about BA NOT wanting them because of the GE90-115B engine issue--after all, BA has 25 777's powered by the GE90 engine already.

And don't be surprised that BA orders as many as 35-40 planes--they will use them on routes from LHR to smaller US cities plus routes to some cities in Asia. The BA 744 fleet will of course still be used on LHR-JFK, LHR-IAD, LHR-MIA, LHR-LAX and LHR-SFO routes.  Smile
 
na
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Tue Feb 27, 2001 12:46 am

BA does everything these days to loose image in my opinion. I think they´re more in trouble than people might think looking at what they do compared to expanding competitors. If you watch their plans over the past 2 years you´ll see that everything points to that direction. They expect to loose more business to Virgin & Co. Okay, BA overstretched their expansion in the late 90s. But that they look for the most ugly widebody currently in production (including Russia) doesn´t help. In 100% of all cases I would prefer the 744 over the 773. Currently they are still one of my favorites when going to the US because they are one of the few airlines using the 747.
But in future: Go Virgin if you´re flying from Britain!
 
UA777
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:59 am

I believe BA wants to trade in its 744 for 777, not so much because of capacity but rather profitability. Profitability in what is not apparently obvious.

If I'm not mistaken, an airlines value is partly based on its fleet. BA has a large number of 744's in it's fleet, and what has become increasing obvious is that there isn't a market for 2 types of VLAs. Why are there 60+ orders for the 380 and none for the "proposed new 747?"

Because Boeing will not be able to sell an radically updated version of its venerable 747, then the 747's currently on the market become less desirable and less valuable. Once again, the value of the airplane does affect the airlines bottom line.

By BA trading in the desirable 744's now for the popular 777, it is protecting it's value as an airline 5+ years down the road when the 380 is on the market and the 747 may perhaps pass the torch as the current queen of the skies.

my $.02

 
raggi
Posts: 886
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RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:04 am

I don`t think BA care about the way their aircraft look....
The 773 is more economical to operate and can carry substantially more cargo than the 744, so ordering a little bunch of the ( in my opinion ) sleekest aircraft flying today for routes where the 744s slighty better range and capacity aren`t needed is highly logical!
Hopefully they will!!


raggi
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: BA Wants To Trade 744s To Boeing For 773s

Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:45 am

Raggi's comment is right on the mark. The B777-300ER (and the A340-600 as well) is an excellent B747-400 replacement with approximately the same range and a slightly smaller capacity. You will see a lot of B744s be replaced by the B773ER or A346 in the next ten years. BA is leading the way. Believe me, BA's soon-to-be-announced decision to order the B773ER is a very sound decision! You can argue why they should order some A380s, but you can't fault them for ordering the B773ER to replace the B742/B744s.

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