#199

This is post number 200! WooHoo!  

-Shawn

If anybody in this thread honestly believes that UAL (the worlds LARGEST 777 operator) would have A330's in their fleet... your nuts. It makes ZERO sense. United chose the 777 over the A340 and to a certain extent the A330 aswell. Period. That shows that they have no interest in the A330. And WHY would you keep a FEW if you can sell them off for pretty good $? They will have 60 777s soon, and there is no chance that they will keep the A330s. Look at my screen name... does that prove that I'm not an Airbus basher? I love the A330! It is my favorite plane... But anybody who can't see UAL getting rid of these planes... is.... well silly. It makes no economical or common sense.

:::QantasA330:::

Whether UAL keeps or sells the 330s, it will have nothing to do with how good the aircraft is but with what UAL needs (the same for possible 764 purchase). So what the hell are all those emotions for... and these eager attempts to prove this is better than that... looks like someone's life crashes if it is not...

...CPDC10-30 and Gerardo, bon appetite if YOU are wrong. 

Widebody:


Hopefully, more and more people will be flying by then I suppose. And I DO believe that they need the capacity of a BWB for some of their routes. For example: JFK-HKG, SFO-HKG etc.

Just my 2 cents!


Des

Wow........203 replies.    

United Airline has achieved his goal in life: A thread with more than 200 replies! Way to go, United Airline.

I second that of King767 and QantasA330.

If the 767-400 is such a terrific plane why is the A330-200/300 out selling it? Look how many current 767-200/300 operators like Air France and others are going for the A330-200/300 instead of the new 767-400? It would be a great idea for United to keep the US Airways A330s and go on a PR campaign to compete with NW on which US airline has the best A330 service on routes such as LAX to Hawaii.

What a great topic!!!!!

Please: keep arguing, I'm learning a lot!!!!
(... by the way, I love the A330-200 so much)

*****

TEDSKI, maybe because the 764 has just came out...

I think the 764 isn't a hot seller is because it is a niche aircraft. The 777 was designed to replace the DC-10/L-1011. Most airlines that have the 777 indeed have replaced thier DC-10's/L-1011's with them. (i.e. United, British airways) I believe that the airlines that have the 764, have them to suppliment thier 777's. (Delta, Continental) I agree that the 764 may not sell as well as the A330, but it will be just as pleasing to the passenger and the operator. It may not be the "hot seller", but it will be a success.

Boeing nut:

You are right! The B 767-400/400ER will be a great success in my opinion. It fills up the gap between a B 767-300 and a B 777-200. And is a perfect replacement for older B 767s.


QantasA330:

You are right. It is kinda silly to order both the A 330/340 as well as the B 777. It makes no sense at all. The B 777 can do everything the A 330 can.

Just my 2 cents!


Best Regards:
Des

One more thing, the B 767-400 is still new.

 

Please distinguish between the A332 and A333. The B777 can do much of what an A330 can but don't compate it to the A332. The A332 is a B764 competitor, just because of the size. A B777 is just much larger!

The A332 is a hot seller regarding the many airlines which have already ordered it. And I think there are already interesting examples where B763ER-operators didn't order B764ERs but A332s. Those examples are Air France, EVA Air, Qantas, LTU and I'm sure more will follow.
And not to forget the airlines which have already replaced A310s or A300 with A332s instead of B764s. The latest example are Cyprus Airways and Qatar Airways which ordered five.
And come on, the reason is not just because the B764 hasn't been on the market that long. You can sell aircraft long before they come out, just look at the A318 or the A380.
Nobody knows how B764 sales will develop, but I don't see a large market beside American operators and some few loyal Boeing airlines such as KLM and Alitalia. Why? We have already discussed it a lot, but one thing is clear, Airbus has something very hot to offer with its A332!


Regards
Udo

Why should UAL buy 764s if Boeing is now touting the 20XX ?
And if Boeing has shelved the 747X (apparently),
and UAL needs 500+ seats, then UAL will buy........

I don't think Boeing will completely kill the B 747X program. I am SURE they will be in production by 2006. Korean Air is about to reach an agreement with Boeing on the B 747X Stretch Freighter.

I do expect them to order the B 747-400LR, as well as 10 B 747X Stretch. They need the capacity of a B 747X Stretch for some of their routes.

For the B 767-400ER, I think they may order some for domestic, as well as for European Routes.

Just my 2 cents.

 

OH COME ON!!!!!!

EVERY TIME SOMEONE SAYS 'A330-200 IS BETTER THAN 767-400' THE LIKES OF BOEING747-400 CLAIM THAT THE 764 IS STILL NEW. THAT'S CRAP!!!!!

Becuase, if you look at the sales figures, in the time since the 764s first order (DL, Mar 97) the sales have been like this:

A330-200: 118
767-400: 47

So, the '764 is new argument' just doesn't wash...

If the 767-400 is such a terrific plane why is the A330-200/300 out selling it? Look how many current 767-200/300 operators like Air France and others are going for the A330-200/300 instead of the new 767-400?

TEDSKI, your really showing us your "knowledge" of the aviation industry, keep it up!




It would be a great idea for United to keep the US Airways A330s and go on a PR campaign to compete with NW on which US airline has the best A330 service on routes such as LAX to Hawaii.

This is one of the funnyiest things I have heard on this whole thread. What a joke.


And come on, the reason is not just because the B764 hasn't been on the market that long. You can sell aircraft long before they come out, just look at the A318 or the A380.
Nobody knows how B764 sales will develop, but I don't see a large market beside American operators and some few loyal Boeing airlines such as KLM and Alitalia. Why? We have already discussed it a lot, but one thing is clear, Airbus has something very hot to offer with its A332!

So, Udo, please tell us the "other reason" why the 764 is not a hot seller, according to you. I have one guess, your extreme bias toward the American aircraft manufacturer.

Nobody knows how B764 sales will develop, but I don't see a large market beside American operators and some few loyal Boeing airlines such as KLM and Alitalia.

YOU don't see a large market, how suprising. So then Udo, your pretty much saying you don't see a market for the A332 either? Hey Udo, can you spell "some few loyal Airbus airlines".
But one thing is clear, Boeing has something hot to offer with it's 764.
-Tom

Greetings all! Should we try for 300 replies?  

King767:


I agree with you! Boeing indeed has something hot to offer with it's 764.

What is it? Let's see and we will know.


Des

Boeing nut;

Sure we should! Let's have a go!

     

Des

Hey guys! Sad to hear that Boeing will not be 'actively marketing' the B 747X anymore. However, they will still be building it if an airline expresses interest in this program.

What I think is......... UAL has the potential to become a launch customer of the B 747X, as well as B 747X Stretch. So as Japan Airlines.

By 2015-2020, some of the B 747-400s will have to go. I think they will order both the B 747-400LR as well as B 747X to replace them.

And IF there is a need, which I do see a market demand for UAL's flights, UAL will order about 10 B 747X Stretch.

They still have the interest in this program. And I HOPE this program will not die.

What do you guys think?

 

I hate breaking it this way to you, but it seems you havent read through the various press releases (independent of those from Boeing mind you) and understand the manner in which you were 'spun'.

To borrow from a popular childrens song..

"Ding Dong!..The 747X is dead!"

Boeing "shelved" it's 747-500 and -600 a few years ago, now they have shelved the 747X. Doesnt it get -any- more obvious?

Boeing's short term effort was a campaign to undercut the A380 in price, talk the market for it down, revise it's market projections a few times, and now today, they effectively canned their 747X "threat" to the A380. The 747X is effectively "histoire". In my view, the sole intent of the 747X campaign was to see how far they could be used as a pricing leverage to Airbus in the negotiation of purchases. It was a competitive 'tool' to bargain with and nothing more. Now that the A380 has settled into some sales and none for the 747X, Boeing has realized it's time to move on and market what they believe is their next hot seller.

The "Yellowstone" project (the new Mach .95 jet they have just announced) will now purportedly commence and their efforts will focus on the enhanced 747-400 (which is NOT a 747X), the 767-400 and 777LR variants. It will be interesting to see the fuel sitaution in a few years is and what the fuel consumption of the Yellowstone will be by the time it's into it's flight test phase.

The 747 is a wondrous aircraft, has done an incredible job, established mass travel worldwide and brought accessibility to air travel to bilions of people. But alas it's production lineage will -probably- end with the 747-400IGW model.

Time for a brief journey down history lane..shall we?

I wished there still was a McDonnell Douglas around, and yes I wished there still were DC-8's being made, they were tough as nails, proven in engineering and capability, a JOY to fly on -nothing like those huge windows they had on them. That plane too evolved on paper into the -original- DC-8-70 series (using souped up JT3D's -not- CFM56s that we know the DC-8-70 from the later Cammacorp/CFM conversion vintage) and even a SUPER Stretch DC-8-80 variant. But the airlines these were proposed to didnt bite because of the newer DC-10, L1011 and 747 widebodies at that time. Alas, The DC-8 ended production in the early 70's, many pundits, observers and fans of which said was well too early (considering it only started flying in 1958). The 747 has had an excellent run and proven itself very well. It's time to move on.

Just a few drachmas on this.

MAC

Hey MAC, if you would learn how to read, they slowed the plans down for building the plane, and they will bring back newer 747s when airlines want them, according to the article. I hate to break it you MAC, but 747 has MANY more years left in production buddy. You're dream of the 747X death did not occur today, dead means forever, Boeing stated that they will bring it back when the time comes. Sorry.

Hey 747-400

Ahem..If you could -read- and -understand- the -obvious- in the press releases and also factor in this is the SECOND TIME a project based on an upgraded 747 has been "shelved" in only a few years then you would finally wake up from this punch-drunk ridden dance called -DENIAL- and realize that the 747X is a paper airplane, will remain a paper airplane and b'gosh, will probably remain a footnote on history books 10-20 years from now as nothing more than a marketing scheme by Boeing to get prices lowered on the A380.

Can you -understand- that?

How many times will the international airline industry take yet another journey down memory lane with yet another trolling out of another paper 747 based design after this?

Hmmm? Cant you figure that out?

How much business and marketing experience do you have by the way?

Now, if you'd please Mr 747-400, I'd like to order a Quarter Pounder with Cheese, a large order of fries, a Coke and an Apple Pie.

To quote a commercial on the radio heard lately..

"Denial...is not a river in Egypt".

Try to Think and -understand- about that and please wake up!

I'm tired of seeing people banging out useless type, canned spam, ridden with drivel and above all not at all "seeing the forest for the trees"...why not try banging out some -informed- opinion from you!

If people are -that- thick and cant see the days of the 747X are done, then I've got a fishing expedition getting ready to set sail in the Sahara Desert too.

Your Pal
MAC

Oh come on! Sorry to break it in this way but Boeing747-400 is right. Boeing said they WILL produce the B 747X if an airline needs it. It wouldn't surprise me IF they lower the price for airlines that show extreme interest in it. Maybe not for now.... But.......

Marketing always change. They market to every individual customer in different ways sometimes.

Just my 2 cents.

 

United

Hold on a second here.

Let's get something straight. Boeing just announced that it's "shelving" the B747X and announced that they are going to concentrate on the "Yellowstone" Mach .95 jetliner.

How much do you think the "Yellowstone" is going to cost in development?

Easily..Quite Possibly *more* than the $4 billion the 747X was projected

Ergo.

Here comes Big question Number One.

Does Boeing have some sort of incredible stash of cash sitting under a rock near Seattle to build the 747X, the "Yellowstone", the 767 enhanced variants and the 777LR variants all at the same time?

The answer is probably not.

So..Here we have the crowd that squeals about Airbus having to spend $11 billion or so on the A380. Encompassing one major project.

OK...now on that same page..where is Boeing going to get all the money to build all these various aircraft programmes being wished for here in this thread by some who refuse to "accept the forest for the trees"?

If you add all of the development costs up, this could -conservatively- tally up to around the same dollar figure (at minimum) if not more than Airbus is spending on their single project.

How is Boeing "goeing" to pay for it all?

And Now..The $164 Billion Dollar Question:

If this is the case, will Boeing get more US Government Corporate Welfare to pay for it all?

Now that's what we could call an 'aggressive shareholder value enhancement program'! (LOL!)

Just curious..

Regards
MAC

United Airline, I'd be very interested to hear your take on Airbus' plan for the A330-500.

The A 330-500 is a great plan as well. Hope it will be launched some day.

Wasn't it cancelled?

No United Airline, The A330-500 was shelved, yet you picked it up as cancelled...funny that, i did the same today......

As for the 747X, it is dead.....as MAC mentioned above, cost.......the A380 will cost 12 billion, and everyone has made it clear that Airbus won't be able to develop much while concentrating on the A380....dead right......the Yellowstone project is projected to cost 9 billion, the new variant 777's I would guess being pretty expensive, and the 747X 4 billion....the money just ain't there......

Shelved I mean.

Sad to see that A 330-500 has to be shelved.

It is very hard for them to make big bugs out of the A 380 Program. They would have to sell AWFUL lot before they can make some money.

For the B 747X, I would call it 'in sleeping mode', not dead. IF they are able to find a customer, they will still launch it. Korean Air is extremely interested in this product. I guess UAL and JAL as well.

 

If they find a customer they will launch it? Will they spend $4 billion for one customer? BTW, if KAL, UAL and JAL are all interested, why was it shelved?

Umm......... true. But who knows? Maybe they are not interested for now.

Anyway, let's see.

The B 747-400LR will do well for UAL anyway. What do you think?  

I think personally the -400LR will do very well.......it will depend though on what operators want to replace their -400's with.......they can stick with the -400LR, or if they need the capacity, they have the A380.......what would worry me about the -400LR's future is the A380-50, the 481 seat version.........Boeing have capped their capacity with the withdrawel of the 747X......I think they're quiet happy to let Airbus handle anything above 400 seat, while they concentrate on the lower end of the market capacity wise.....

I am sure it will be a great success. Long Range, more payload........

Do expect UAL to go for more B 747-400s, as well as this B 747-400LR after the merger.

I don't think the 500+ market is large enough to overtake the B 747 in anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Actually, when did they start coming up with the idea of a B 747-400LR? I am interested to know.  

A great idea.

THE 747X IS NOT DEAD.

Boeing is still offering the plane, they have put it into a sleep, and it will eventually wake. Boeing did this because they still don't think the timing is right. Boeing will produce larger 747s or a new 787 to compete. Widebody, Boeing has capped their capacity? Boeing can build a plane 50 times larger than the A380 if they wanted, but it wouldn't make any sense. So they are doing whatever they think is right, Airbus is doing whatever they think is right, and publically right as well.

The new 747s are not dead, Boeing is going to compete with the A380. The war has only begun....

United Airline Wrote:

am sure it will be a great success. Long Range, more payload........

Do expect UAL to go for more B 747-400s, as well as this B 747-400LR after the merger.

I don't think the 500+ market is large enough to overtake the B 747 in anyway.

Just my 2 cents.


United Airline...United Airlines is looking at more varients of the 777 over the 744. I have even heard some un-thinkable comments from UA people about the 747 future. It is my opion that UA would order 773ER with GE engines as engine commonality does not always matter. This would allow for more cargo capacity, as well keep the yeilds up on routes. The 777-200LR would also be a better plane for United, for those longer routes, such as SFO-SYD, and LAX-AKL. You dont have weight restrictions with the 777 on that flight, and ETOPS is not a problem on that route. UA sends the 744s out half full on that route. The truth of the matter is that the 777 will provide UA much more options in the future over the 747.

Now there is the possiblility of more 747s at United, but I do not think that it is that great of one. I do not think that UA will order the A380 either, as there is really no need for an aircraft of this size in United's fleet. Maybe a few flights to HKG...but tomorrow's flight from JFK to HKG is not even half way full.


Question for you:
Why would they need more 747s after the merger? US Airways for the longest time could barly fill a 767-200 over the pond. Also after the merger, UA would have inhereted US Airways debt, and UA would be in debt too. There would not be the funds to purchase new 747s...or the market.

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