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Guest

I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:05 am

I haven't contributed much to the forum because of reasons I've stated before in other posts. One being how nasty  Acting devilish people can be in here. Before I go ahead with what I wanted to say, I'd like to explain a couple of things, since I am, in a way, coming to Boeings defense and I might be verbally attacked by one of the many fanatic 'to the death' Airbus fans. Since everything from not reviling my real name (at one point), my hair, eye color, where I live and/or even my nationality might be attacked and to blame, I'd like to put that out there  Wink/being sarcastic . My name is Ricardo Pellegrini, I'm thirty-something, brown hair/hazel eyes, born in Rome raised in Barcelona (there fore I am European) and have been living in Seattle for about 5-6 years. Also, I have no preference to either, I like all planes from the CBA-123 Vector, Caravel, MD-80, dc-10 B747/57/67/77/37/27 to all Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier, Tupolev, Illyushin and any others I've might have forgotten. With all that said, let's get to it.

1) As usual and frequently here at airliners.net someone keeps putting down Boeing, in particular, (seems to be now) the once loved 747. Now, we keep reading how old the design is, etc. etc. Same with the 737. It was one day on flight from Seattle to Boston on a new American 737-800, that I was reading a magazine. I believe it was Air International (?) (not sure, I'm sure one of you have read it). The article was about Airbus turning 30!! Happy birthday! Congrats and all that other good stuff. I decided to look back… and find info on my 'puter about Airbus' first jet. The A300, which emerged in 1968 and flew for the first time in 1972. I remember the first time I saw it. It was such a pretty bird. Anyhow, what I fail to see from any Boeing fans when the 47 or 37 is attacked about their age and what I never seen from an Airbus fanatic is the age of the Airbus design? I guess people don't to see it but minus a few engines here and there, new materials, redesigned wing, etc., the A340-600/500/300/200 A330-300/200 and even the A310 is derived from the good ol' 300. I mean the fuselage is the same except some changes and upgrades in the cockpits and new technology, the over all appearance of these jets are similar. So why is it okay for Airbus to do it, but when Boeing does, its too old ,30 year old design etc. Airbus is just as old. What's wrong with Boeing taking a proven airframe, updating it and possibly making it better (like they did with the 737NG)…nothing. Just because people are tired of they way it looks?  Confused Same thing goes for the A320. Unless a new radical break through technology pops out anytime soon what do you think happens after the A320 gets too old? Build a whole new plane? No, most likely we will see an A320NG. It bothers me when I see these A vs. B and Boeing keep getting trashed and I find it unnecessary.

2) As I mentioned before I recently experienced an American 737-800 between Seattle and Boston with the more room in coach which was greatly appreciated. I've doing a lot of business traveling between Seattle and Boston, New York, Newark, Chicago, Minneapolis, Detroit, Las Vegas and Phoenix. Flying with American (7378), Continental (7378/7) and Northwest (A320s) and America West (A320s). Now this might be just my opinion but this so much praised (by Airbus and Airbus fans) wider cabin than the 737s might be a fact (what are we talking about though 3 inches?), but it is completely, totally, for me of course, unnoticeable! Except on Americans 'more leg room' coach there was no difference. Continentals 737NG, were just as comfortable as Northwest's and America West's A320s. I just didn't see the big advantage, not even in the aisle. Oh…just in case anyone wonders about my stats?: I am in good shape, my queer peers and other people in the States would call my type a 'gym bunny' or a 'muscle queen', I work out J . I stand 5'10" , 32" waist and have broad shoulders and big arm (hence the muscle queen label  Insane ) but whether it was a 737 or 320 I felt equally comfortable in both! With out fighting, does anyone feel the same? Or do you actually feel the difference 'cause I sure didn't.  Confused

3) Moving away from the controversial A vs. B let's go to all planes overall. Many say, that they way planes looks are getting rather old. A tube with two triangles coming out of the sides and triangle coming out of the rear top, is one way it has been describe. Bring the topic up of a proposed blended wing concept and people freak out! Oh my god no windows!!! THE HORROR!!!  Wow! Or you read comments like 'can you imagine going to an airport and all you'd see are wings?' and 'how would you apply a livery' etc. I'd like to know what is it that you'd like to see? Not like everybody could be satisfied but what would be an ideal aircraft for you? As we all know, except for the people who fly the planes, are in the industry or just love airliners like us, people in general don't know what's what! Unless the media exploits an aircraft after an accident like they've done with the MD-80, 737, and even the A320 after the Air France crash…. people don't care what plane it is or what type. As long as it gets them there safely, who cares.

Finally, I promise, with Airliners.net now being advertised on Airways magazine and I read something about CNN and being included in The Best Aviation Websites book, it's kind of sad to see the quality of the forums keep going down. New members join every day and there are more to come. What I don't understand is how (especially) older members (400 days + or since A.net came to life and never logged off) sometimes completely ignore the forums rules, bash other members and complain that a topic has been discussed too many times. Well, that's your fault if you spend every day in here. They might not know about the search button but sometimes this doesn't even help with all the varieties of post titles. Older members can sometimes throw this cocky attitude as if they own the forum because they've been here longer.  Insane Have the forum rules been scrapped? This goes for newer members as well. All you read any more are insults and constant attacks with no shame. Some would say, 'If you don't like it don't read it' but how can you know? With all the misleading topics titles, you or I won't know if we like it until you open the thread and read the first few lines. I can only imagine what people in the industry think or say about the stuff that goes in here. Fights over who's better A or B and CRJ or ERJ… and countless amounts of misinformed post…I guess they laugh out loud, like I do most of the times. Yes, this is a forum where you can chat about rumors and what aircraft you prefer, but I suggest reading the forums rules one more time or for the first time for obviously many of you. I don't know. It seems that it has become more of a popularity contest in here. From how long they've been a member, to how many post they've contributed and who has the most names in the 'respected by' feature in your profile. At first I though this feature was cute but quickly saw how ugly it turned out to be.

Johan has a great site here. What do you say we bring back some quality into these forums and start respecting each other. Like somebody once said "Can't we all just get along?" Because I think most of us are mature enough to have serious conversations without insulting each other.  Innocent

Peace & Love
Ricardo Pellegrini

 Big thumbs up

Alright bring it on!
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7143
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:14 am

Amen!
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:21 am

Well said!

Additionally, the A320's cabin is 7" wider than a Boeing. That is a bit of difference, but since most airlines order seat to fit in both Airbus and Boeing, the aisle is who sees the added space!
Climbing
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:28 am

I thought the rules state that you are only to use one "cartoon face."

All kidding aside, I absolutely agree with the call to raise the respect level in here.

I'm pretty new, but I read the rules and I adhere to them.

Focus on the issues, and remember everyone has their own opinion. If their opinion differs from yours, explain why, don't knock them off their feet with a low blow and keep hitting them when they're on the ground.
Lay off. Get back to the topic. It's not an arguement, it's a forum for ideas and Q&A.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
Guest

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:42 am

Hey DIA

I gonna be anal but about the cartoon faces it says 'Never use more than one smiley to express an emotion' ... I had different emotions in there so I felt I need to use different ones.  Smile

Peace
Ricardo
Sea_tac2000
 
widebody
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2000 5:08 pm

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:46 am

Yer right, things are getting out of hand recently....... one of the worst things that's starting to show is the lack of respect...this forum is made up of all ages, from kids to pensioners, people with no knowledge of the industry, to people with 30/40 years experience...it's important to know your place......you get to know your level fairly soon, it's a question of whether you want to learn or just argue......if you're out of your depth, then learn from it.......people like Preben up there have more knowledge than most of us ever will, all we can do is learn.....


As to your questions, the 737/747 are a proven design, Boeing have no need to build brand new aircraft, the NG aircraft are better than any newbuild.......in most cases all that remains is the internal structure, and that doesn't have much of a part to play....everything else is state of the art....as for Airbus, I must correct you on the above, the A330/A340 have nothing in common with the A300, yes, most of the lessons learned with the A300 were designed into the A330/A340, but all they have in common is the nominal cabin width, the contouring is the same, but apart from that, they have nothing in common.........the 737/747 take the existing frame and work on it, Airbus didn't...doesn't make much of a difference, but there you go....

As for the 7 inches, fuck all when you think about it, I've never noticed it, it depends on how the airline wants to use it......

Rgds...
 
Guest

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:46 am

I'm a new member as well...in fact I saw the add in Airways.
As far asyour post goes. Bravo. Good reading!
You might think the respected users is silly but I'm afraid I going to have to start using it.
I like your style!

Peter
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:55 am

Amen Brother!  Big thumbs up Big thumbs up Big thumbs up
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7143
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:01 am

Braniff727 wrote:
... the A320's cabin is 7" wider than a Boeing.
----------------------------------------------

That's correct Braniff. But that's not the whole truth.
The 320 family fuselage is circular.
The Boeing narrow body fuselage is a double bouble. It makes it "feel" slightly wider than it actually is.
At shoulder higth there is not much difference. And at one very important point - at overhead locker higth - they are practically equally wide.
Where you really feel the difference is at floor level at a window seat.
All in all I think that Sea_Tac 's figure - 3 inches - is a pretty good "avarage" figure of the extra width of the A vs B narrowbody. It gives you half an inch! Still better than nothing. But nothing worth writing home about, and much less to fight about.
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Guest

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:07 am

If you need to apologize for your post, it should be obvious not to do it.

All I can say, is sales is the only thing that counts in this game, and we all know who is leading the way!  Laugh out loud
Iain
 
User avatar
c172akula
Posts: 826
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RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:14 am

I like the cut of your jib Rico! Profs to you for the post. There is nothing wrong with differing opinions and healthy debate, so let's keep it that way!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Notarzt
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2000 2:45 am

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:19 am

Ricardo,

Well said!

As for your points. The 'age' of certain Airbus and Boeing designs is a bad (may be the worst) so-called argument ever used - not only on this forum, by the way. If you would like to, all Boeing narrowbodies go back to the B707 and all Airbus widebodies go back to the A300... in DIAMETER. Anything else was and is new.
The 'cabin width' issue is another joky one. Again, you put it all-well. The passenger simply does not notice any difference between the A320 and the B737 - only specification fanatics do. And they really love to bring that up when required.

All in all, I enjoyed reading your post. I agree to the downstep of discussion level here which is quite unfortunate. However, as time goes by, things will change again.

Daniel  Big thumbs up
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:26 am

The airlines decide how to use the space of the cabin, not Boeing or Airbus. A seat that is 1 inch wider really doesn't make much difference to me or the average passenger. I'll fly on the airline that fits my schedule and has the ticket for the right price, not the airline that has a plane that is a few inches wider.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
I Like To Fly
Posts: 1070
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:17 pm

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:29 am

Amen! Big thumbs up
 
kmia
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:04 am

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:37 am

well said Sea_Tac2000, I agree completely  Big thumbs up, I also have the feeling, that some members here are very inmature, but well, just look at their age in the profile..................
 
Guest

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:56 am

I agree 100% Sea_Tac! I hate it when some of the best plane out there are critisized for just the age of their design, it happens to both Boeing and Airbus aircraft, but think it happens to Boeing more because of the 747 and 737.


I like your username! It is a great place and home of Boeing!  Smile
 
Fly-by-pilot
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 10:45 am

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:07 am

If you bash the 747, and 737 then you havent a clue about aviation.
 
Guest

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:13 am

Hey,

I totally agree. It's good for the forums to get someone to post things like this. Keeps us in line.
 
KALB
Posts: 564
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:15 am

Boeing and Airbus are going to be around for a long time. Frankly they need each other in order to encourage inovation and improvement. The 737NG probably would not have happened without the A320. The 777 is a response to the A330/340 and I think the A380 wouldn't be happening without the continuing sales success of the 777 and 747-400 programs. I think its time for a third player to get in the frey. I think the Russians can contribute if only Illushyin or Tupolev design bureaus could get western financing.
 
NAACREW
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 3:05 pm

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:58 pm

Well said Ricardo! Although I am partial to Boeing, only because its the type I work on. If you love flying,which I think we all do in the forum, I really dont think it matters what type AC you fly on. Theyre all great!

Bob PS You dating anyone!?  Smile
 
RIX
Posts: 1590
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Wed Mar 21, 2001 12:16 am

Well, many (most?) of us have their preferences in aircraft manufacturer, aircraft type, airline, ..., all this can be and will be discussed (including how old a design is or are those extra 7 inches of A320 better than less circularity of 737), but:

1. Don't be personally offensive.
2. Don't bash.

Both can be said as "be respectful to someone else who may like what you dislike - even if it is older, worst selling, ..."
So, Ricardo is definitely right...
 
Guest

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Wed Mar 21, 2001 4:33 am

I agree completely with RIX. It is important to remember that a need for civility should not be mistaken for a requirement that we all agree. There are legitimate differences between Airbus and Boeing. There are differences between Southwest and American.

In analyzing these differences, we each have our preferences. These preferences may tie into feelings of nationalism and fair-play. More importantly, many of the people on this board are more than just passengers or disinterested observers. For those who work in the industry, the outcome of an Airbus v. Boeing battle or a British Airways v. Virgin Atlantic skirmish related directly to financial security--either through a job or through the price of stock. Under such circumstances, it is understandable that people hold passionately to their views. This forum should be a vehicle, moreover, for sharing those views with others and opening those views to reasoned criticism.

Nevertheless, the mere fact that another individual holds a view opposite your own does not make that person unreasonable or unintelligent. Accordingly, ad hominem attacks not only show the weakness in your argument, they detract from the exchange of ideas on this board. We must further respect the passionate feelings held by others on this board and take mind not to offend their sensibilities. One should therefore not rage about how an airline subjectively "sucks." Better to give reasons as to why you would not fly them.
 
WiLdmanVzla
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 12:17 pm

RE: I Apologize Up Front, But I Have An A Vs. B?

Wed Mar 21, 2001 4:50 am

very well Ricardo!!!!.

I love airplanes but I'm sure I don't know anyting about it... so I use this posts to learn each day a little bit more & more about my hobby (this means: Airplanes are my hobby, not my job).

... by the way, I like the A320 design... but I have to say the B737-700 (for example) is most confortable to flight in... & it's just because my experience, so it doesn't have to be the last word about the differences between both planes for me!!!!.

I dislike when some post are just excuses to start a war between Boeing and Airbus fans. Please just talk about differences of those planes & try hard to teach us about airplanes... it will be really appreciate for some of us.

*****
 
FedExHeavy
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2000 6:50 am

RE: Sea_Tac2000

Wed Mar 21, 2001 7:51 am

Testify!!!!!, right on Sea_Tac2000! Smile/happy/getting dizzy, I don't think you should have to apologize for anything, it's a discussion forum, people post messages and they get disscussed, there shouldn't be limit on what you can or cannot disscus, just as long it's about avation.
and you have a nice day!
FedExHeavy
So far this is the oldest I've been.

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