It was a United States Navy Ep-3E Aries 2 based on Japan. It was over international airspace when ambused by the pair of SU-27 not migs. china does not even have MIG's.

I send you to this site to learn of PRC's army.

http://www.emeraldesigns.com/machup/military.shtml

I mispeled the link Matchup is speled wrong

L-188

How do you know I'm cute......- 

My post was just to prove how sensitive you guys are over things like this.....and your response just served to prove it even more.

I'll not bother to "analize" any further, but just say, how do YOU KNOW that what you write is correct, even if you heard it from the navy or all-knowing CNN I will not believe that more than sabenapilot.

Regarding Tibet and Taiwan, let's just say we share the same view there, but it's not the point.

As to US military behaviour around the world, I think (and partly know) that it is exactly what we think, have seen it myself!

Your last sentence sums it all up, What's the big deal? It even happens in Sweden......

Cheers

I would give anything if the US military wasn't all over the world. We Americans are very much out of our element dealing with the affairs of other countries. It is an area most of my countrymen dread. Unfortunately, to let situations like Yugoslavia be dealt with by the Europeans is not even something to consider. The Mideast problem, Chinese expansion (get ready), Russias' indecision, internal African aggression and external interference, and on and on. Who will help us? That's the reaction and behavior to observe. On top of all this, we (the US) now have a leader who seems clueless as to what to do. Maybe we should not get involved at all. Interesting times for all. Maybe its time for the people of the planet to finally work together. Right!

I would give anything if the US military wasn't all over the world. We Americans are very much out of our element dealing with the affairs of other countries. It is an area most of my countrymen dread. Unfortunately, to let situations like Yugoslavia be dealt with by the Europeans is not even something to consider. The Mideast problem, Chinese expansion (get ready), Russias' indecision, internal African aggression and external interference, and on and on. Who will help us? That's the reaction and behavior to observe. On top of all this, we (the US) now have a leader who seems clueless as to what to do. Maybe we should not get involved at all. Interesting times for all. Maybe its time for the people of the planet to finally work together. Right!

As L188 pointed out, many facts cited by Sabenapilot and others are just wrong. The U.S. Navy EP3 was damaged by one of two F-8's. I appears the F-8 which collided with the P3 crashed. Sabenapilot, you make me laugh. It's nice to know you so readily dimiss the long list of atrocities committed by the PRC against it's own people including many forms of genocide including the "Cultural Revolution" and Tianamen Square. Also, you seem to have amnesia regarding Chinese spying in the U.S. which has apparently resulted in acquisition of technical details of the W88 nuclear warhead amongst other things. The Chinese have even been trying to interfere in U.S. politics with serious questions about Chinese donations to the Clinton Administration, and administration arguably weak on integrity. Finally, not only has China shown enmity toward it's own people and the U.S., but they also don't seem to be a very good neighbor. Just ask Tibet and Taiwan. Nice government you support. Numerous instances of world condemnation for violation of human rights. Number one source of "pirated" copywrited material including music, literature, and computer software. Quite the wild frontier, wouldn't you say? Very moral bunch you support. What does that say about you? By the way, if you in fact are a pilot for Sabena (which I hope isn't true), I'll be sure to fly other airlines.

Whatever happened?
And whatever "international law"...
It is always the right - or rather the duty - of an ordinary country to monitor what happens in dictatorships.
It's a difficult and potentially risky job. But all normal people on this planet must appreciate that there are people, oragnizations, countries who are willing to do that risky job.
Those of us, who have been living closer to the problem for a long time, have an attitude which is quite opposite to Sabenapilot. But then luckily the Berlin Wall crumbled, and the f..... dictatorships in my part of the world became normal nations, some of which are already good NATO members and practicing together with my air force on the same air bases in the same air space for the same case.
It's too bad that this planet still has too few normal countries, and there are still a lot of "Berling Walls" to get rid of. Let's hope that at least we will have some further progress in our lifetime, or the history books will condemn our generation as being no more than a dark extention to the dark Middle Ages.
Best regards, Preben Norholm

Can anyone post a link to a pic of the Chinese plane?

thanks
russ

Sabenapilot,

You have been on my Respected Users list for a while now, and with good reason, as I find you an informed member, who, although we will disagree, is open to different views than your own.

That said, your post on this thread offends me to no end. Nothing that you said has any truth behind it whatsoever, and it appears you read a headline then made up a story to go along with it. I'm not going to get into the political agendas of either China or the U.S., but by immediately declaring blame and making assumptions about the intentions of both the Chinese fighters and the U.S. Navy aircraft, when you had no knowledge of either, is truly disheartening. I post a link here for you to read, so that you might learn a few details about this incident so that you won't have to make up your own. Obviously, the full truth of the incident will likely never be known. However, we cannot fill in the blanks with our own versions of the story, but instead, must go by what we do know.

A very disappointed,

Hamlet69

Sorry, I forgot to include the link:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010401/ts/china_us_plane.html

Hamlet69

It all reminds me of the James Bond movie Tomorrow Never Dies.
For the ones who didn't have a chance to see it:
A British Navy Ship is chased by MIGs after it went into Chinese Territorial waters (a media mogul was playing with sattelites to get the course wrong). The event took place in South China Sea. What a coincidence.
If you wanna know the development of the situation , watch the movie. I-0

China does indeed have migs. Their F-7 and F-8 are copys of the mig-21, while the F-6 is a copy of the Mig-19.

COPYS not mig's

Actually, we have a leader who has been working feverishly throughout the last several months sifting through the garbage of the last administration to salvage what vestiges of an actual foreign policy we may still have, and to formulate and enforce (for the lack of a better word) a consistent foreign policy. The reaction of the administration of the past 8 years had been to send the US armed forces to almost every area of conflict in the world, to do everything from what the armed forces are supposed to do, to passing out rice at refugee camps. Whatever would give the Zipper in Chief that 5 point bump in the approval rating polls that week was what was done. Eight years of neglect are not fixed overnight, and the President and the team he has assembled (Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld, Condoleeza Rice, among others), have things well in hand. So, please, if your opinion is based solely on the NY Times Op-Ed page, do not speak for the rest of your countrymen, or even "most" of them.

To the rest of you, using an incident like this to try to start the traditional "Europe is paradise on earth, you heathen Americans" flame wars, you should be ashamed of yourself. This could easily have been a British plane or French plane on a NATO mission. China has had a vision of world dominance with concrete plans on the books for quite a while. They are slowly and methodically pursuing those plans, with things heating up quite rapidly at the moment. When the wonderful PLA is knocking at the EU's door, and don't think they wouldn't, I am sure the horrible US Armed Forces will be welcomed with open arms, as the EU joint force would not even concern the PLA...it's always the same thing, when American money or firepower is needed, arms are wide open, but the rest of the time, American money and firepower are derided as the bane of civilization. As a couple people pointed out before, this sort of American activity has assisted the European public a couple times, at least!

OMG OMG OMG!!! Sabenapilot are you nuts?!?!?!?!?!?

The United States Navy is involved here not the USAF or the US Army. Were you serious about all that crap you said or were you just kidding? Perhaps an April fools?
***I'm with L-188 all the way!

:::QantasA330:::

I could have been an honest mistake. The PLAAF is very undertrained and underequipped. They shouldn't of been intercepting a P-3 if it was in international airspace though. IIRC an country can only control air and water 9 miles from it's coast.

Boeing in pdx,
A mig is a mig. Are the F-16s license built in Holland any different than the ones built in the USA? Are the Su-27s built in India any different than the ones built in Russia? Are the F-15s built in Japan any different than the ones built in the USA? Didn't think so.

Here is a picture of a Chinese J-8 interceptor, edited variant of the Mig-21 (not Su-27 as stated by Boeing 747 in pdx).

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/j-8-2_3.jpg

Note: The J-8 involved in the incident crashed, and it is unknown whether the pilot survived.

I jst wonder whether the 24 crewmembers are going to be detained/held prisoner for very long. This could turn into a major diplomatic emergency if China decides to put them in prison.

I don't know what they were doing, so I'm not going to judge who's right and who's wrong in this. I'm just thinking of their families.

redngold

There would surely be a war or something if they did decide to keep them.

Well we've all seen or heard of this before. During the good old cold war Russian Bear aircraft were doing this all the time near Alaska, and the US doing just the same as well. Of course I would hope that the Chinese decide to release the crew and aircraft "post haste" for their own sake.

In my opinion I don't think Dubya will beat around the bush on a matter like this like the previous administration would.

And quite frankly there will be a conflict coming, maybe not soon, but eventually something is going to snap between these two nations.

Here's a link to the CNN article about what happened.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/04/01/us.china.plane.03/index.html

Basically the Chinese say the Navy plane caused the crash, and the U.S. says that they don't know exactly what happened, but that it was an accident. The U.S. has made it clear that the plane was U.S. sovereign property and that no attempts of seizure or boarding would be tolerated. The plane was in international airspace and made an emergency landing on Hainan Island.

There was two Chinese jets and one of them is missing. As for the US aircraft it damaged its tail and wing.

I would have to go with the the idea that the US plane was in the wrong as they are very well known for flying in the wrong areas in Hong Kong controlled airspace. Many times the jets from carriers can be seen flying into air corridors without telling Hong Kong. I myself have heard the ATC telling pilots to look out for strange aircraft from 5,000 to 25,000 feet.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that China "claims" more territory than international regulations allow, and that China (may have, we really don't know) considered the American aircraft to be within her borders.

This reminds me of the Gary Powers incident. And it also reminds me of all the time US Navy ships and Soviet ships accidently collided while playing chicken. According to Tom Clancy, as long as you didn't actually hit the other guy, it was okay.

Personally, I wonder if the world is headed for another bi-nation set of superpowers. At least US leaders are sane. I'm not sure you can say that about all the Chinese leaders. They have committted some serious crimes against humanity in the past, and some regard Westerners (mainly Americans) as evil.

I hope the US decides to start escorting the EP-3's with a High Value Unit CAP consisting of a couple F-15C's....

I just hope the next time the USAF or USN get bumped out of chinese are space they make a landing in Hong Kong !!

They are not migs just becuase they are based on a mig model. besides those planes don't deserve the MIG name because they were not made by mig.

Sabena Pilot,

Assuming you live in Brussels, a cradle of international justice and human rights, it's pretty laughable to see you cheering the regime in charge of the PRC. Bravo.

About the yet to be cleared up details of this story, I would be very surprised to find out that a veteran pilot on a tricky mission like this would endanger the lives of 24 people by "bumping" into a fighter jet. Even if the plane suddenly veered in the direction of the F-8, the Chinese pilot would have to have the reactive skills of a complete moron not to be able to avoid a slumbering pig like the EC-3.

One thing's for sure, the Chinese steal any equipment off that plane and Taiwan just got itslef 4 AEGIS cruisers.

Wingman, you got it all figured out. Make the 4 Aegis Cruisers and 1 carrier battle group for that matter. And then add a dash of B-2, and we got ourselves a war! But "What if we threw a war, and nobody came?" A true question to ponder.

But in all seriousness, this situation needs to be resolved. Apparently the US embassy is sending diplomats to Hainan Island to meet with the crew hopefully.

But does anybody know if the crew has stayed on the plane, just to keep the Chinese out. Because that aircraft is a little Soveriegn piece of the United States.

By God, that aircraft is a 4 engined sovereign piece of the United States and if the Chinese so much as touch her,..........there gonna be trouble. (just kidding).

Here's a link for a picture of the plane:
http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/aircraft/ep3/ep3-bw.jpg

TWAmerican, what a lame post.

Do you think that US aircraft would "back off" if a suspiscous military aircraft was near their territory? I think not. China has a right to defends its soverignty.

good!!!!

that will teach the USA something, i hope China give them a good ass whopping...

Well, I just hope the PRC knows better to not engage in a "let's strip the aircraft" escapade, and above all that starts to play games with the 24 people aboard.

I hope the officers and enlisted folks aboard did everything they could to destroy whatever gear they could and rendered the data monitored on file or tape as useless.

Remember, the PRC desperately want an advanced ELINT and AWACS capable aircraft to help wage a war against Taiwan, as evidenced by their efforts to buy a modified IL-76 equipped as such through Israel. If they get their hands on this equipment we have some major problems in store. I wonder if the TR-1 (with the large dome fitted up top) could do the a modestly similar mission as the EP-3 (it can fly way up there and those F-8's would gag on thin air before they ever could dream getting close to one of those).

Sounds like a sale of 4 AEGIS destroyers is in order (at minimum), the upgraded Patriot system, most definitely adding Taiwan's participation in the Theater Missile Defense (TMD) system, some P-3's of their own, and even an enhanced Taiwan defense cooperation treaty is in order. I say, give Taiwan whatever it wants now! It would make an excellent base for adding ELINT and AWACS capability and it's much closer to the 'action' than Okinawa is.

Okinawa is essentially a 'cocked pistol' aimed at two adversaries, the PRC and North Korea. Air Force assets and the capability to handle heavy bombers, also has a massive Marine Corp presence. The Marine Corps troops arent allowed to be stationed in South Korea by UN armistice mandate (they are viewed as "shock troops" by the North Koreans, so they are stationed on Okinawa which is very close by.

If we added cooperation with Taiwan this would most definitely sew up a major "hole" in the southern flank opposing the PRC since 1979, and we'd be closer to the Spratly Islands and the Philippines if the PRC ever decides to wreak havoc to grab the oil deposits there. I know Tainan Air Base in Taiwan was a former US/ROCAF base up until Jimmy (The Peanut Picker) Carter turned his back on Taiwan, whom I believe to be a true friend in the Far East. Beautiful base I might add. It would be perfectly suited to resuming it's former duties and then some. Hsinchu Air Base near Taipei would serve quite well and so would the massive Chin Chuan Kang Air Base near Taitung. (The PRC has built an -exact duplicate- of this airbase to train commando units on how to attack and seize it in the event of an invasion of Taiwan, funny how no one in the West knows about that, but it was widely reported on Taiwanese TV channels and newspapers during the summer of 1999.)

Maybe this will be the perfect opportunity to correct all of that.

MAC

WOW, what a -STUPID-, moronic comment! Congratualtions! You and TWAmerican should get together! Imagine the intellectual level of those conversations!

I really don't get this.

The 707 is in the wrong airspace, so fighters are sent to warn it off. The fighters want the 707 to follow them somewhere, and there is an argument. Why did this dumbass pilot have to run into the 707? Iff it was bad weather, I'd understand, but come on. Shouldn't the Chinese pilot given a few warning shots beside the aircraft instead of running into it?!


Really odd.


BTW, AirbusDrive, that was probably one of the dumbest posts I've seen on these forums yet! What an idiot!

Will the people who try and stir stuff up by claiming that China will invade Taiwan please shut up. China's navy doesn't have the capacity to mount a large scale seaborne assault.
Taiwan can keep buying what it likes from where it likes as far as weapons sysytems goes, China can't invade and wouldn't try anything that would see several American C.V.N's park themselves off the coast of Taiwan.

China will not strip the aircraft. I'm sure the crew are not just going to leave it and I'm sure there are more US staff on the way at this moment.

As for the STUPID remarks of TWAmerican well thats all they are. Its the Americans that are always sticking their nose into other peoples business.

You know, the P-3 Orion isn't exactly a spy plane. Its a slow moving 4 prop plane usually used for submarine monotoring. If the US military was trying to spy on China they would have been using a U2 or something. One of my friends dad's used to fly P-3s out of Moffett Field (right near where I live) and he said that the worst the plane could have been doing was dropping sonar bouys (cant remember how to spell). Anyway... The point is that if the Chinese aircraft "bumped" the P-3 it was either a mistake, or just a really bad pilot. If the plane had been shot down I would have had a major problem with this. The problem I still have though, is that why are the detaining the aircraft and the crew? To all those of you who support the Chinese government, I cannot respect your opinion, though I respect that it is your choice to have the opinion, but I plead for you to watch the video from Tiennenmen Square..... I was just a 5 year old kid at the time, but what I saw still horrified me. And don't go telling me it was an isolated event... I don't want to hear that bullsh*t.