Spaceman

Instead of being a virtual dummy, why not arm yourself with the facts. This assault by the Chinese Air Forces upon a US Navy aircraft flying in INTERNATIONAL AIRSPACE that even the PRC -ratified- in a worldwide recognized aviation agreement called "The Chicago Convention".

Why is it you cant arm yourself with that fact? Does the brain stop working once that point is reached?

Instead, you resort to emotive drivel (the bossing around bullsheetrock you espoused) with no information to back your argument up.

The EP3 aircraft was practically -half way- between the Philippines and Hainan Island (as depicted tonight on FOX News) when the Chinese aircraft collided into the US aircraft.

So, that said, when you people decide to make up your mind which treaty you signed covering airspace, or do you make it up as you go along so it fits the situation when you want it. Do you drive a car down a highway and get out removing speed limit signs and put up new ones where you see fit too?

In otherwords, does the concept of "the respect for the rule of law" ever apply to the PRC government. Are they ever accountable, do they like playing this pathetic "victim card" over and over again? Do you understand how stupid they look playing this propaganda effort to -snow- their own people? (rhetorically speaking, as in the kind of snow snorted up the nose, the stuff that makes you see and do things a bit mellow or strange?)

Furthermore, the US side DID offer to help in rescue operations to locate the downed flier in question but was -REJECTED- by the PRC government. Why? Because it's a "face issue" and the PRC government wants to play the role of "victim", when it CAUSED the incident to occur. I know how blasted important "face" is in that part of the world and this is the most offensive, childish, temper tantrum I've ever seen by a supposed government run by adults. They should be bent over and spanked! (better yet -caned- if it were to be administered in Singapore)

Respect for treaties the PRC signed seems to mean nothing, International Airspace agreements mean nothing, 12 miles -really- means 200 miles in "PRC speak". Correct?

If there is any apology to be made, it is to be from the PRC to the United States and to the families of the 24 airmen being illegally held on Hainan Island and also to the -Chinese- family of the pilot they had the nerve giving a license to fly an F-8 around like a "liquored-up hotshot" and got himself killed trying to force down a large transport-size turboprop aircraft.

If there is any compensation, it should be paid by the government of the PRC to the -US- to repair and replace the aircraft and systems damaged, as well as those "items" stolen now off the aircraft in question.

I swear, some of these children werent spanked hard enough at a time of life when they desparately needed it.

MAC

The only day China and Taiwan will ever reunite is when the ROC flag goes up in Tiananmen Square. And where it rightfully should fly like it did after the 1911 overthrow of the Ching Dynasty.

Only when China finally becomes a democracy and repeals it's communist regieme. Not one day sooner. Taiwan will NEVER allow itself to be absorbed by it's avowed foe.

I have met President Chen Shui Bian and I have full confidence in him that if the PRC threatens to invade or carrys this threat out Taiwan, he WILL declare independence.

That said, all the overtures each side make to each other known, Taiwan will never allow itself to adopt the "one country two systems" model advocated in Hong Kong or Macau. Taiwan knows it can and will wait. The PRC side is getting restless and wants to force the matter soon. The moment the PRC attempts to attack Taiwan, the PRC's gamble to buy off the West will collapse like a chandelier hanging above the Great Hall of the People in Beijing, come crashing to the floor.

Taiwan would never surrender it's autonom, let alone it's massive gold reserves it has in it's national bank to a government that would strip it empty and move it back to Beijing while the Communist party is running the show there.

MAC

Man you talk too much just goes on and on blah blah blah. Save yourself some life my friend.

Where did Taiwan get it's gold from?From China?Or did United states donate the gold to Taiwan?

MAC....

I think your series of posts on the aggressionist tactics employed by PRC are among the most intelligent, educated posts I've seen yet on this forum.

In addition, these words, posted by Wingman, sum this issue up perfectly, I think.

The lowest common denominator rears its ugly head. Ignorance knows no national boundaries.

That aside, some people justify China's actions by stating that the US plane was a spy plane
operating near China. So what? The plane was in international airspace and had every right to be
where it was. As an American, I fully accept that the US government does some incredibly stuppid
things. This is not one of them. We have a commitment to protect our allies in Asia as well as
Europe. Some people may say the US just does this for its own benefit but let's face it, this
protection has provided nearly 60 years of unprecented peace and economic prosperity (both in
Europe and Asia). That fact is unquestionable.

In order to sustain this Pax Americana, the US military must monitor any and all potential threats.
China is simply the largest of these threats anywhere in the world today. They have replaced the
Soviet Union as potentially the single most destabilizing factor in world affairs. By China I don't mean
the laptop assembly worker in Guanghou (sp?) of course, I mean the Chinese military (the people in
charge). They want the South China Sea for themselves and left to their own devices would squash
Malaysia, the Philippines, and Vietnam to do so. Taiwan would just become a footnote in history.

So next time you criticize this terrible US policy of flying in international airspace think about the
awesome responsibility that the US has. Whether you're from Greece, Singapore or anywhere else
you also benefit from the economic freedom to choose your own destiny that is made possible by
US-led stability. The US isn't always right, but in the larger scheme of things, I think its track record
is enviable. Ask any Asian if they'd like the US military to leave the region and I think that person
would just crap their pants. Trust me on this, China is very bad news indeed.

I don't think there is anything I can add on the subject of the importance of the presence of American military forces in potential hotspots around the world.

The real quandary of this issue is not what will become of the aircraft seized by the Chinese, or what will become of the 24 Americans being held by the Chinese. I have no doubt that they will probably keep the aircraft and return the crewmembers. The real issue here is what will happen after Congress approves the weapons sales to Taiwan, which is now almost a given.

In otherwords, the Bush administration faces its first diplomatic crisis, and it is a big one. I hope President Bush will not take the path President Clinton took. It is time for him to show the Chinese that they simply cannot get away with this kind of thing. Probably the biggest factor that has encouraged China in its path of aggression is the great deference with which American politicians, spurred on by business interests here in the U.S., have treated it.

I hope that for once our leadership will do what is right rather than what business interests in Washington want it to do.

DeltaSFO

Thanks for the deletion of my post, Gundu.

-------Not a single word of both Oxygen and hkgspotter1 is correct. --------

oh, so you mean you really are the American Professor that was arrested in China, WOW, then you must be in chinese prison now !!! Do they let you go online in the prison? that's great !!!!

oh so now I know you are not stupid, you are actually a highly educated Chinese American Professor who is now in prison. I respect you very much.

I would like to clear up a few pts here. I think that there is a great deal of double standards involved in this matter.

First, it WAS the EP-3 that flew into the chinese plane. The way the EP-3 is damaged can prove this.

Secondly, the EP-3 DID intrude into China without permission. And now the Americans is saying that the plane is part of their territory and the chinese cannot board the plane. NOW what If the chinese lands all their planes onto the USA WITHOUT PERMISSION and say '' hey this is Chinese territory and no one can board the plane !!'' what would the Americans do ? THE AMERICANS WOULD HAVE SHOT THE PLANES DOWN !!

Third pt. In 1976 a USSR plane landed in Tykyo. The Americans and Japanese DISMANTLED EVERY PART OF THE FIGHTER AND STUDIED THEM BEFORE HANDING THEM BACK TO THE RUSSIANS. NOW USA SEEMS TO HAVE FORGOTTEN ABOUT WHAT THEY DID AND DEMAND that the chinese MUST NOT study their plane. NOW THAT IS RIDICULOUS !!

Forth. People seems to be very concerned about the 20-something American crew, but what about the Chinese pilot? ISN'T HE A HUMAN BEING TOO ?

Fifth. I think that if USA finds that many Chinese planes are doing the same thing around the coast of America, they would have shot the plane down already.

Sixth. If the Chinese pilot is dead, then the pilot of the EP-3 or, the person who is responsible for the decision to suddenly bank to the right to hit chinese fighter SHOULD BE FILED FOR FIRST DEGREE MURDER.

Regards

Thankyou!!!

At last a bit of impartiality here.

Oxygen, please pull your head out of your fifth point of contact and breathe some.

1. The way the plane was damaged doesn't prove a dam thing. The damage to me indicates that the pilot of the psudo-mig probably was doing one of their old tricks. They fly underneath the a/c where they can no be observed and then pull up suddenly in front and as close to the nose of the aircraft as they can, scaring the bejezous out of the flight crew in the other aircraft. Any bets that this putz misjudged his distance in this case which caused his A/C to strike the other one.

2. The territorial limit is 12 miles. The US says the P-3 as 70 out the Chinese says 60 out. The truth is somewhere between the two but both are both considerably farther out then 12 miles.

3. About 1972(ish) a Soviet survaliance aircraft landed at Gambell, Alaska after getting cut off from it's operating base and it's alternate. Magadan and Anadyr respectively. The U.S. response was to send a C-130 up there that next morning with a GPU and a Bowzer with Jet-A on it. The Soviets spent about a day on the ground in the U.S. and where not detained not was their aircraft searched. In fact they wouldn't even let the village kids on their bikes get up close to their Aircraft.

4. His is dead. He is dead because he was stupid or ballsy. Either way he is dead. The Navy offered to assist in the search with those three ships. The Chi-com government turned down this assistance. They are now going through the motions. My sympathies goes out to the family he left behind but he caused his own death and very nearly 24 others. What he did is no different then getting yourself killed while recklessly driving on the streets.

5. See my note about the plane in Gamble. Plus I grew up closed to the russian mainland then to Seattle. Nuclear armed bombers and their recon aircraft where constantly being intercepted by the U.S. and I can't recall one of them ever being fired on up there. It just doesn't happen. Every fighter unit probably has a photo of one or two of their aircraft escorting a recon aircraft, bomber ect of the other side. Again I can't recall there every being a shooting incident.

6. No he shouldn't. If anything should I be wrong and the chinese pilot be alive he should be charge with reckless flying and endangerment, destruction of government property. Attempted murder charges seem out of line to me.

All this McCarthy era Communist crap is astonishing, given that we are living in the 21st century and it seems that people are just as ignorant now as they were then.....

WOW! I am surprised that so many people can get internet access in their trailer homes! I am really disturbed by some of the comments made by rednecks like N766AS and company. You people obviously have no clue as to anything about China!! All you doing is repeating over and over again wornout stereotypes that have nothing to do with this topic at all! All it does is reinforce negatigve stereotypes of the arrogant American and ruins the reputation of this great country. N766AS- you are a mindless lemming that turned retarded feeding on too much US propaganda. What do you think this is- the 50's?!?! "Oh-no, Red scare! the commies are after us! Quick- let's blacklist everyone". I really hope you have paid attetion to some of the more educated users of this forum who pointed out that Communism exist now mostly in name. In fact anyone with some college education will know that China's government has long since abandoned operating under socialist ideology. I would explain further but it is useless since most of you which seem to take the side that "America can do no wrong" is blinded by your own naive ideas of nationalism. You should wake up and realize that America can suck too! and usually does! I still can't believe there are people like yourselves that think that America is so respected and revered, that all nations look up to America to protect them. BULLSHIT!!! as this forum has shown, even Europeans laugh at you. You guys still think America is the best..look around you, almost all your industries are going to other countries. I mean damn! America can't even build a decent car. Japan almost kick your ass economically (opps! I mean they almost bought your ass..they still own a lot America hahaha) By saying all of this, don't think I hate America, in fact I like it. I'm just using this as an example to burst the bubble of these self righeous hicks that think America is head and shoulders above everyone (like it has more rights to demand back it's plane when they never afforded that option to anyonelse). It is just like any other country and must play by the rules

Mac Vet - thanks for all your comments. There are some of us here that really appreciate your insight. Don't worry about these other eggheads.

Oxygen, haven't you learned anything from what had been discussed above?

MAC_Veteran
President Chen Sui Bian is an idiot. I think you have been in Taiwan too long and got brainwashed by those nimconpoop "independence party" or whatever it is. Let's face it...the time has past, Taiwan is not overtaking the mainland. The attitude that should be taken at this point is the old "if you can't beat um, join um". Even the KMT has taken this type of approach- because it is the smart thing to do. As much I hate it (I am a KMT supporter, and I wished they won the civil war in '49) the one China policy is necessary- it is not important whether it is the nationalist China or red China- it has to be one for benifit of both sides in the long run. It is ridiculous to think this tiny island can have independece..what a joke! even if it was offically declaired independence it would still reley on someone- whether it be the US or China. Not every one is Taiwan is as dumb as you to think that it can stay that independent or it can stop China. If they did, then why the hell are most people bailing their resourcse outta there? Most of the people creating all this shit storm are those Taiwanese natives that think that being born in Taiwan makes them at totally differnt race than Chinese people. Those are the same idiots that are screaming for independence and for Taiwanese to be the offical language in Taiwan. Most of them don't even realize that the US is only using Taiwan to protect their own interests. If the US didn't see any benifits to gain from Taiwan, China can nuke it and the US would not give a rats ass

Ok we got another person off the deep end. Thanks Wisperliner. And remember this is comming from a guy who supports Alaskan Succession. Hardly the type of person in line for a D.C. Job.

Ok. in other news the Chinese Government just told our embassy over there that they wouldn't release the crew untill the got their "apology". They forgien ministry spokesman said they where being questions, He called them "Lawbreakers"

I don't know about about the rest of you but that raises this crew to the level of Hostages.

All because the Chi-com government is to proud to admit one of their pilots F**ked up.

If the Chi-com govenment wants to be respected they better stop acting like this. Hostage taking is something that can not be condoned.

whisperliner: the slightest chance that your post might have any integrity whatsoever went out the window when you used the stereotype of trailer homes and rednecks

shakes his head.....

am european having lived in the california for 4 years in the late 80's (reagan times) and since for 13 years in east and se asia (pr china, taiwan (roc if you wish), vietnam, singapore and thailand).
don't like a bit what is developing on this one and it smells and spells trouble.
am also puzzled (but not exactly surprised) about the "american sovereign, 'we are allowed to do what we want' / 'do not touch our plane', etc " approach on this one by a lot of home of the free contributors to this thread.
i would like to comment on many more contributions, but will leave it to giving my 2 pesos on this one:

Say Bye Bye WTO
Bye Bye MFN
Bye Bye Olympics Bid in 2008

the usa do NOT decide WTO membership, neither are they the only country to trade with china (probably not the most interesting retail market of chinese goods) and they certainly do not decide olyimpic venues (even if the largest sponsors are american)

how about
bye bye to sales of boeings
bye bye to granted 50 years of autonomy to hongkong
bye bye to an ever more interesting asian market (singapore, korea, japan, taiwan, yes even taiwan, are interested in china)

i am not anti american, but

good luck.

China have called the US' expressions of regret "a step in the right direction".

Basically, SITUATION OVER.

(I hope).

BTW, I assume everybody has forgotten that a Chinese pilot died in this incident, or does a Chinese life not equal that of an American?

Who said the US got out of the 50's? Look what the airlines are flying and not to mention the cars that are popular in the states.. Why is it suprising that they are still fighting "communism" even though Marx would laugh at the suggestion of China being a communist nation.

Anyway, everyone in here has basically said the same crap about 170 times and I haven't seen anything new posted. Everyone has made there side clear so lets focus on "Civil Aviation"!!! will this have an impact on Boeing orders to Chinease airlines? will it help Airbus? What will Eva and China Airways do? what will be the impact on future route development from the US to China/Taiwan? You would think that negative political relations would hurt the airlines who are flying to China, as far as restrictions, and if the US gov't puts a travel ban in place (as suggested before) then the effects would be tremendous.

Ignore my last comment, it's too premature a time to make such a statement.

Hello all,

I can't believe a country like China could do such a thing. This is very disgraceful for such a country. All that US plane was doing was to spy for US. I believe China should have blown up that jet in the air with a nuclear bomb...

HEHEHE.

Taiwan has alot of business interests in China. Many business from Taiwan has move their factories and workers to the mainland. Many people also decided to imigrate to China from Taiwan, because they see the vast opportunities in Chinas economical growth. Soon Taiwan will work out a deal with China so they can start direct flights. Taiwan already has too much interest in China to screw it all up to declare independense.

Dear China:

I am sorry your pilot could not avoid a lumbering 4 propeller Lockheed Electra. Perhaps you should try better training.

I am sorry you decided not to accept American assistance in searching for your pilot when we offered it.

I am sorry you decided to ignore international protocol by holding our crewmembers hostage and not letting them speak with US representatives for an unacceptable period of time.

I am sorry you still have not let them speak with their families.

I am sorry you are a hypocritical nation that spies on the U.S. all the time, and yet somehow expects an "apology" when we do it.

Please accept these sincere apologies, and please release the hostages you have taken. Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
America

Geez, that makes a lot of accidents. Iranian Airbus shoot down in the middle east by an US rocket, cable car collision with an US fighter in Italy, Chinese Embassy in Belgrade bombed by mistake, Japanese Fishboat in the path of an US Submarine and now an EP-3 collides with a chinese fighter...the world is not enough?. Why don't these guys have fun with their expensive toys over their own territory, it would give a break to the rest of the world.

Oxygen, you cannot tell who hit who by the picture of the damage. I've seen the pictures and they say nothing other than the plane in the picture has sustained damage. You are absolutely 100% full of crap when you say the pictures prove anything. That is one of the more absurd statements I have read on this huge thread. I'll be glad to debate you one on one on this issue because you don't know what you're talking about. I really wish you had not written that line. It undermines (in my mind) everything you say. My personal e-mail address if you wish to discuss this further is [email protected] As the F-14 pilots motto goes "Anytime baby."

MAC

Reading your "sources" and attempting to keep a straight face at the same time......they are the opinions uttered by a few authors.....and as such given their rather low circulation one should wonder why

Low circulation in America because the publishers "chose" to stop publishing the book. However, in the rest of the world, this book was WIDELY distributed.

Do you know who Goddard is, and what his background is? Do you know his current situation? Did you know that since writing his book, he is wanted in America, but was granted asylum in Sweden; where there was a diplomatic row over the issue?

Read the ACTUAL book yourself, and not base your opinions from a website, however, poorly done it is (the website that is).

If you read my original post, the IranAir A300 could have had a small (or even full) complement of passengers up top in addition to -quite already dead- ones below. So indeed, thost passengers from Dubai indeed were probably on the plane. But still how can you account for the bodies in the condition my friend described? Was he lying? I dont think so.

See how I highlighted the word "could"? You have written pretty much that point is actual fact.

You have yet to refute the view that the Iranian F-14's flew off the A300's wingtips....

I don't have to refute the view, because basically it was never that way. You have obviously not seen the documentaries in question, or if you have, you didn't listen closely to what was said.

Now all your other talk of F-14s "shadowing" the Airbus is beyond the point. IR655 was in Iranian airspace at the time of the incident, as was the Vincennes (or are you going to deny this?), and as such, other factors which I am sure you know of come into play also.

These things can *most definitely* happen and to dismiss such and then again place all of your trust and faith in a video and a few spuriously written books, while trumpeting a "US government murder or coverup" charge is simply preposterous.

Let me reverse this.

To place all of your trust in what ANY government says whilst trumpeting "an F-14 line" is simply preposterous.

As to the spuriously written book. I hardly think so. Like I asked above....do you know who Goddard is, and what his role in the intelligence community was?

What I do often do is not believe the "official" line, as the "official" line oftens serves a most-biased purpose.

To ignore the -very high- possibility this was a complete setup by the Iranian government at a time when they were -actively- attacking reflagged Kuwaiti oil tankers and various oil platforms in that region, the murk and mingle of a very tense battlefield reality, is, beyond comprehension.

How about ignoring the fact that the Captain of the Vincennes screwed up big time....even his crew admit that....why is it so hard for you to as well? Remember, they were there on the scene....were you?

You've trusted the sources you feel you can trust, versus mine who was actually there and revealed things that werent discussed at all on 2 video programs I watched (PBS and TLC). I watched the same programs you have (minus one you did see there -I will look for Maltese Cross, I have not seen that one.) So to then attempt me using my own "bias towards believing US media moreso" is hogwash. I'm watching the same stuff you are mate!

You may be watching the same thing as me....but are you actually listening to what the crew who WERE there have said on interview?

.......You cant disprove me.

Of course I can't disprove you. It is impossible to disprove an unnamed, unconfirmed source. Even you know that right?

I had a bit of a chuckle in the attempt to accuse this of being a farce and then scream for or endorse a form of censorship........

I do not believe in censhorship at all. What I do believe in is giving a balanced view to BOTH sides of any given story. The media is not well known for doing this at all.

Lastly, I would much rather trust someone whom I've known a long time personally and know their character.........and above all, the ability to see the level of truth communicated and felt by looking the person -right in the eyes- when they were telling you it.........

How many times in the past have you heard of court cases when an "expert" witness has testified, under oath, and have sworn black and blue, that what they saw was "A". The accused is convicted and sent to prison. When all along "A" was not correct, it was actually "B". People can see and hear things which they believe to be "A" when in actual fact it was "B". Your friend could be no different. I don't know what frame of mind your "friend" was in, what his experience and past history was, and a host of other circumstances.

Also, you make note of "commercial" interests.

Did you know that BBC, who commissioned one of the documentaries, has no commercial interests, as it is owned by the British government, and it is world-renowned for it impartial reporting on issues, and most importantly, looking for the "confirmed" FACTS. I am sure that PBS in America is the same? Would be a lot different if it was NBC, CNN or another "commercial" network commissioning the work.

Being government owned means being impartial? My dear friend, aren't you the one who spent some time in Russia? Can you say the same about the media there? Yes, Britain is not Russia, but your argument is still one of the most ridiculous and irrelevant things I ever read here. Poakkuratnee nado, dorogoj drug!

RIX

My point on the government ownership of the BBC is not to prove impartiality, but to show that they have no commercial (i.e. NBC, CNN) or political interests (most Russian TV stations). Much the same as the ABC here in Australia.

However, my point on the BBC being impartial is a well known fact around the world. There is no denying that?

Plus add to the equation:

Britain is a long-standing ally and friend of America. Why would Britain (through the government-owned BBC), who have had their own troubles with Iran in the past, produce a program which implicates the Americans whilst redeeming the Iranians?

This is proving the BBC's impartiality, no?

I have also said in the past, that to get the complete picture of the story, it is best to get the views of an outsider, who is not connected to the story. In the IR655, I am not an American, and I am not an Iranian. In the current case, I am not American, I am not Chinese, and I am not Taiwanese. I have no "interests" "preconceptions" or "allegiances" in any of those countries which would cloud my judgement.

I am not denying that MAC "could" be right on two points:

* That there were F-14s shadowing the A300
* That the bodies were already in an advanced state of rigor mortus,

however, given the facts attained from a WIDE range of sources (official and unofficial, partial and impartial), and studying those facts, both of those points do seem highly unlikely.

Oh dear.... and all I want for me and my children is a peaceful world.

This is by no means an aviation thread anymore, but the discussion is still welcome. It shows the (sometimes unfortunate!!) diversity of people in the forum, and their interests and ideologies.

I come from an unsignificant little country in Northern Europe who tried as best as it could to remain neutral and "friends with everyone", but who joined NATO because of its proximity to what was then the USSR when the cold war was at its... coldest. It was appropriately nicknamed "the neutral allied".

Now I live and study in another unsignificant little country in Oceania. If you turn the globe to where you can see nothing but blue ocean, you will find it down in the corner. Living here has given me another perspective on the world, but some things remain the same.

Enough about my background. Perhaps this particular incident represent the following, the standoff now being over whether or not the US should apologise:

The US have just got themselves a new administration, an administration who would like to demonstrate strength and a solid stance. Remember the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade? Madeleine Albright was on the phone to Chinese officials within hours and apologised. That happened well into the term of the Clinton administration.

The Chinese might feel that they don't get the respect they deserve. China has a long, strong (and utterly amazing) history. China is as sovereign as any other country, and is also the biggest in the world in terms of population. There are roughly four times more Chinese than there are US citizens. Perhaps the Chinese government just want the Bush administration to realise that the US, just like any other country, can make an honest mistake, and that China wants to be taken seriously.

I am not blaming any of the parts here. Accidents do happen, if it was an accident. If anyone is to be blamed, it will not be possible to reach any conclusions as to which part deserves it until the circumstances are thoroughly investigated.

I am confident that a solution will be reached, but to do so, the problem has to be clearly defined. To me, the problem seems blurred. Perhaps it is a problem created by media? The Chinese president is on a scheduled visit to South America - business as usual for him.

Just my 0.02 (choose currency yourselves).

Hans

PS - UAL747 - well said above. Welcome to my "Respected users"-list.

Idiot. And it wasn't a jet.

Idiot. It wasn't a fighter plane...

No wonder you took it seriously. You are going to be one of those west pilots...well friend, I sure hope to see you in the skies for a long long time. Just one more thing, with that attitude, it would really be surprising if you got a job in Airforce's washrooms.  

You are idiot.
Taliban.

Spaceman

Granted Taiwan has a large amount of capital invested in Mainland China, but that could evaporate quickly. Dont think for a minute they'd surrender their own country to get "kissy-faced" with the "jack-booted ones" in Beijing if they start threatening a REAL war that involves an attack or invasion on Taiwan. Taiwan's stock market has taken a *heavy* beating in recent months and the willingness to invest in Mainland China isnt that hot, like it used to be. A lot of businesses in the PRC that are owned or invested heavily in by Taiwanese businessmen have been facing incredible shortfalls. They frankly are NOT producing nor profiting the way they thought they would, and many have decided to forget it and go BACK to Taiwan (which is experiencing a rough economic time right now).

US and European investors have gotten -SEVERELY BURNED- in the PRC investing on their own under the pretentious fallacy as if it were a -democratic country- with a strong and sound legal system that enforces all types of laws equally. The "hunpao" that exists in the PRC to government officaldom is -unfreaking believable- and when times are lean back home, the less chances there will be for Taiwanese or US and European investors to expand or even maintain their investments there, especially one that might be willing to risk a major shooting war. Consult the latest Taipei Times and China Post business pages for further clarification on this.

The Taiwanese people are -quite- wary of what is going on back there and by no means -stupid- as a certain pompous moron (Whisperliner) attempted to bang out on his keyboard on this same thread.

The KMT now finds itself lost, rudderless and adrift seeking a new direction after the DPP trounced it in the last Presidential election.

A majority of people there gravitated to the DPP thanks to the "black gold" KMT politics of allowing corruption and gangsters in their government, as well as a natural yearning for change. They have -had- it. The KMT's old credo of reunifying with the mainland "eventually" must now be forced into re-examination with current military and economic issues at heart. They also now are beginning to realize that Taiwan would never have it's own automony under a unified China if the current Communist Party in the PRC remains in charge. Recent examples of what is occuring in Hong Kong and more restrictive changes to the people there have the Taiwanese people's interest picqued. This point is blatantly clear. They know the PRC's government is essentailly a "liar's tribe of brigands" and nothing less. Clothing a wolf differently still doesnt change the fact that it is a -wolf-.

Overall, If the PRC decides to accelerate the footpedaling (how appropriate, The PRC attacking on bikes no?! (LOL!) towards or attempting to prosecute a war, not only will it be a 'million man swim' for them, but the internal guts of the PRC economy will face certain collapse due to sanctions and villification.

"Der Fuehrer" Jiang Zemin should be quite wary of entertaining this idea of attacking Taiwan. For if he does, it's over for him and the PRC government.

MAC

Well, apparently the Commies want to play a game with the U.S., so lets play it with them.

And Sabenapilot, I see that you say you're being "objective" - how is that so with your support of the PRC in your first message? Being objective means to look at both the U.S.'s and China's story, not automatically progress with your love of spewing anti-American sentiment.

Although we should play the Commie's game with them if they want one, I hope that this entire situation ends peacefully, and if an apology on behalf of the U.S. is necessary then it might as well pursue it.

MAC_Veteran, just how strongly do you believe the US would back Taiwan if China made an aggressive towards it?


I don't know if I'm just apathetic or what, but I'm not really getting riled up about this issue. Even if China does examine the plane (and I think they will, even if they haven't already), as long as they don't remove anything or get access to any technical manuals, I personally wouldn't be too upset. As long as they promptly return the crew and airplane (which means, ideally, tomorrow), there's no need for a conflict.

Right now, since the US military has had so many accidents lately, I feel that we shouldn't push the issue. If the Chinese think the US is in a weakened state of resolve, they'd better wake up. Push come to shove, we'll be there. WWII cannot be repeated.

This is my opinion, and it doesn't necessarily reflect that of the other Americans on this forum. And The War of Northern Aggression absolutely cannot be compared to China's brutal oppression of Tibet (TWofNA is also called the Civil War by the yankees, but there was nothing civil about it).

"And The War of Northern Aggression absolutely cannot be compared to China's brutal oppression of Tibet (TWofNA is also called the Civil War by the yankees, but there was nothing civil about it)"

Where the hell does this come from?!?! You yanks should be the last to talk about oppression and what not- look at the oppresion of native americans. friggin stole their land. I don't think this is much different than what you think is going on in tibet (which is probably not much)

Good job. With this attutide I will make the perfect fighter pilot. It's a little thing called college. Looks like a certian somebody ( )may be just a little jealous! And when I called you an idiot, I had reason, being that you over there in Afgan should have no problem with the U.S., because the U.S. helped Afghan against the Russians. Plus, there is not currently an air to air nuclear missle. You however called me an idiot simply out of defense. This shows that you simply are not very clever. Anythigng else I should enlighten you on?

Someone back on this thread compared the American Civil War to China's occupation of Tibet. I had to point out that it wasn't an accurate comparison. I agree that not much is (probably) going on in Tibet right now. It's the past that's important.

MD-90

I believe we most definitely -will- back Taiwan, we are obligated by treaty (The Taiwan Relations Act of 1979) and contrary to what some may hope, we will back that island. If we had different leadership in Washington -at the current moment-, then I would tend to worry much more. But now that *Adults* are back in charge, I tend to believe that Taiwan's cause and stability of situation is far more enhanced. That doesnt mean the PRC wont stop in it's quest to attempt a blitzkrieg on Taiwan be it through missiles or a blockade or special forces actions here and there, but not as likely. Over time though, this equation will begin to shift away from Taiwan's favor if they cannot modernize their military.

I'll refer you to the following article posted on the NewsMax.com website. I agree in many ways with the author of the article. Here's the link, have a gander at this and think it over -carefully-:

http://www.newsmax.com/commentarchive.shtml?a=2001/4/4/190938

The issue of accidents occurring in the military services at an alarming level is testimony to the woeful under-budgeting for *operations, maintenance and training* and diverted to fund ongoing -peacekeeping activities- across the globe at the highest level in decades. It has stretched the forces thin and in many cases, to the breaking point. This is what the US military services have been imposed and in any ways -castrated- with, thanks to atle-brained policy making. It began immediately after the Gulf War and the fall of the Soviet Union, it accelerated to a *fever pitch* during Der Schlickmeisters magnificent "romp", which defined the period of incredible self-absorbedness that the author of the article identifies. Afterall, many in the US public are the "man in the mirror" no? Some are absolutely lost on or defining it, which this article linked here hints at. It gives good insight how the US was asleep at the wheel, and how close this could be. I agree with the author that when push comes to shove though, that it will change quickly if we do get into a combat situation with the PRC versus Taiwan.

The PRC of course is banking that our own loss of wits by stroking this very thing we are 'lovestruck with' in some areas will overcome us and that is what they are banking on. A thorough reading of Sun Tzu's "Art of War" is an excellent preparation to just begin to understand the contemporary PRC government's mind I might add. To ignore it, is a fools pleasure. It was written centuries ago, and looking at the present day, is as pertinent as ever.

As to Tibet, let's not get started there. We can talk about the mandatory sterilizations and other "measures" the PRC has used to "control them". They have employed draconian measures to wipe the Tibetan race off the face of the earth! Wonder why it's so difficult to get a visa to vist there? Why not ask Richard Gere that question too? He's a very active Tibet activist. Why not take a view of the movie "Seven Years in Tibet" while at it too. That's a pretty good movie/drama that seems to put a pretty decent perspective I think on the whole issue from the beginning.

Of course, in "PRC apologist-lackey-flunkie-stooge-Nouvelle Lord HawHaw speak" it's verboten to discuss "Internal PRC affairs". Of course this defines the true-opportunist-they-are method they use to deflect challenge on any issue. They believe they are unchallengeable and make no apologies for the arrogant smugness they display. Of course the PRC can buy and influence US Presidential elections, or steal nuclear secrets. If that's not an "internal --US-- affair" then what is? But no-one challenges that of course. The contrasts and contradictions of convenience for the opportunists that coddle Beijing are obvious and apalling. You can never ask the PRC to be accountable for their actions, for in their view it is best to roll over and capitulate to their demands.
If you DARE challenge them you autmoatically fall to ridicule as being a "Sino-phobe" or other untruths and inaccuracies that are used to conveniently emotivize or change the subject which inevitably leads to no change and no demand accountability. They like this approach because it plays well and unfortunately it works with some.

This effort is generally what can be deduced as -disinformation-.

Brings me to a story in the Taipei Times a few years ago that detailed the phenomenon of "Little emperor syndrome" occurring inside the PRC. Young bullies that do well in school, but terrorize a playground and are allowed to get away with it because they are -doing well in school-. Parents in the PRC dont know how to approach it because in their culture, academic excellence is everything thanks to a skewed interpretation of Confucius. Ergo, these "smart bullies" are never expected to be held accountable for beating the snot out of a kid for his lunch money or whatever else. The parents of the smart young brigand literally -dont know- what to do with them! This sounds crazy but it's absolutely TRUE. These kids are spoiled -rotten-.

The problem sounds similar to the problem the gangsters that run the PRC government have. To wit: They lie, they -actively- get involved in other countries "internal affairs" (Presidential elections) and then have the -nerve- to scream "violation of internal affairs" when we want to keep our eyes on them or when they threaten Taiwan and we dare say something about it, they are spoiled rotten in that everyone wants to build a factory in their country to take advantage of their cheap-skate labor rates (How does 20 cents a -day sound to you eh?..could you live off of that? That sounds GREAT to bloat "shareholder value" no?), they have been allowed to bully people inside their own country even if they sign UN agreements on human rights, they steal nuclear technology from other countries, they sell weapons of mass-destruction to rogue states, and overall show the signs of being a totally undisciplined bunch of thugs.

Does this fit the mold of a brat to you?

Disciplinary-wise, this leads me to deduce that they werent spanked *hard enough* when they should have been and are spoiled with *rewards* when they commit their egregious acts without any sort of retribution to ever be contemplated. We and others tend to shower them with more rewards, access and perks after they commit an act that is objectionable and monstrous.

There's no comparison at all between the US Civil War and the illegal invasion and annexation of Tibet by the hostile Chinese PLA forces that slaughtered the Tibetan people then. Again, see "Seven Years in Tibet" for a pretty decent rendition of that. BTW: The PRC didnt like that movie either and screamed (you guessed it) "Interference in Internal Chinese affairs"! (LOL!)

Regards
MAC

The following article, from the UK, I think describes the situation to a tee:

THE LEADER

CHINA vs AMERICA
Two things are clear about the drama now being played out between Beijing
and Washington. The Americans have behaved well and, despite their rhetorical
fireworks, the Chinese are in a corner. There is little doubt about the
facts: last Sunday an aging, American, propeller-driven naval aircraft,
crammed with the latest surveillance devices, was conducting the kind of
aerial surveillance which has taken place in that region (and others) for 50
years, when it bumped or was bumped by a Chinese pursuit jet. Damaged in the
collision, the American plane came down on a military airfield on China’s
Hainan Island. The Chinese jet crashed and the pilot is missing. As we go to
press, the authorities are holding the 24 American crew, technicians and
intelligence officers.

The contrast between President Bush and President Jiang tells the story: Mr
Bush blamed no one, and stated that the US wants normal international
practices to be followed, namely returning personnel and plane. He offered to
help find the Chinese pilot. Mr Jiang insisted that the United States must
apologise and confess that it bears all the blame. This is the same language
he used when the Americans bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade two years
ago, and killed three people. Beijing insisted it was a deliberate act. In
the Belgrade case Washington apologised and paid a large sum in compensation.

But this time the Americans are not taking the rap. It would be insane for
their pilot to ram a Chinese jetfighter and risk bringing down a top-secret
plane and all aboard. No, this was an accident.

There will be further thunderclaps from Beijing and escalating sighs of
exasperation from the Americans — which may turn into anger. Chinese rage
will intensify in a few weeks when the Americans sell Taiwan advanced
surveillance equipment that will enable Taipei to detect a mainland attack
across the Straits.

So what can China do besides demonstrate how angry it is? Not much. Indeed,
its anger is out of proportion to its position: as only a medium-powerful
international player. Beijing’s impotent rage is heightened because the Bush
White House has decided to treat China as a ‘strategic competitor’, rather
than as the incomprehensibly designated ‘strategic partner’ of the Clinton
era. In the Clinton years Chinese officers were shown over American military
bases, where they saw much. This privilege was not reciprocated. Hundreds of
Chinese officers studied at American universities, most notably Harvard.
President Jiang dined at the White House and President Clinton, in Beijing,
echoed China’s line on Taiwan.

But times and administrations have changed. The star of the Chinese
contingent at Harvard two years ago, Colonel Xu Jungping, has just defected
to the United States. Nothing could better illustrate the changed atmosphere
— except perhaps the recent arrest on spying charges in China of two
Chinese-American scholars with strong American connections. (The
five-year-old son of one of them, an American citizen, was detained for 26
days in a kindergarten.)

The Clinton concept was absurd: if ‘strategic’ and ‘partner’ collectively
mean long-term shared interests, no two countries could be further apart. The
Party locks up all organised political opposition, and crushes those Roman
Catholics, Protestants, Muslims and Buddhists who decline to worship within
the ‘Patriotic Church’, not to mention its persecution of thousands of the
followers of the Falun Gong sect. According to Amnesty, China leads the world
in extra-legal executions, and tortures its political prisoners. A recent
report by Robin Munro of the School of Oriental and African Studies details
the frightening use of psychiatric hospitals against dissidents of all
stripes. Such behaviour is being condemned this month in Geneva by the
American delegation to the UN’s annual meeting on human rights. (It is
notable that not a single EU country will co-sponsor the American motion.)

The truth is that George Bush is right. While not exactly an enemy, the
Chinese government is no friend of the United States, although many of its
intellectuals, businessmen, athletes and ordinary people like America and
Americans. There is no sign that China is going to follow Taiwan’s lead and
become a democracy. On the contrary: Beijing menaces Taiwan — and in ten
years may be able to overwhelm it.

But Mr Bush knows that what China wants above all is to sit at the
international top table. Specifically, this means entry into the World Trade
Organisation and holding the 2008 Olympics. If Beijing wants that kind of
global face, it should promptly hand back the American plane and those who
flew in it.

Screaming, rock-throwing crowds outside the American embassy, which were to
some extent legitimate after Belgrade, will be out of order this time. So is
the continued detention of the academics: and there was never any
justification for holding the 24 Americans as hostages. Beijing painted the
grass green recently to impress the International Olympic Committee. It will
have to do far more than that on Hainan Island, and quickly too. Otherwise
George Bush will start treating China like the Evil Empire.
· Send comment on this article to the editor of the Spectator.co.uk
· Email this article to a friend

© 2001 The Spectator.co.uk

of course you shouldn't even go there with tibet!..since it is obvious that you know anything about it. hahahaha..oh my god!!! you think watching "seven years in tibet" make you some kind of china expert...you are so retarded. I think you can stop masqarading as being scholarly on the subject since I smell heavy bs

No...Hollywood isn't a good teller of history....With the noted exception of "Patton"

Cwapilot put up an excellent article. Lots of food for thought.

Cwapilots article was indeed a very good one.

Why do so many Yank´s on this board cry and whine ? When you spy then take the bill if you got caught .

Those of you with a continued interest in this issue, may wish to purchase a copy of the latest edition of The Economist which has an interesting article on the accident.

The front cover reads "Seeing Red", and has a picture of the damaged a/c with a Chinese flag as the backdrop.

The Author infers the Chinese are mishandling the accident.

CP

Whisperliner

If you could -read- the reference I made to the movie "Seven Years in Tibet"; the direct message made was that it is meant as a -good drama to get yourself acquainted about Tibet and what happened there-! By no means is that movie the "end all" source on the subject as you seem to have concluded rhetorically. Isnt that patently obvious? Does everything have to be spelled out in a three-dimensional thought pattern for you before going off on your own to discover the subject?

There are plenty of sources available on the web to research Tibet, most of which do -not- spew the Beijing line that they'd like everyone to take as Scripture. They like to conveniently re-write history for their own aggrandizement and heroic stature in their own minds of how they colonized a sovereign country and have attempted to (still are) wipe out an entire race of people. But of course, if we dare say that or confront that awful truth, that might get the Mao-jacketed Mandarins in Beijing a little mad wouldnt that?

I swear..this is like debating the "Manchurian Candidate"
...care for a game of solitaire? (LOL!)

MAC

Captain Picard and CWAPilot

Firstly CWA Pilot, excellent article posted here! I found it an excellent point of view on the subject.

Captain Picard, I have The Economist's online version and will go check it out. Thanks for posting that here.

The obvious mishandling of this has turned into a blame-fest for the PRC in that they absolutely -cannot- take responsibility for their own actions without losing face to themselves. The classic retort is always to -blame others-. It's the all-too-common means to beat up the West (the biggest convenient target they have) when the situation self-serves them at their leisure and/or for their manipulation in the press to a -captive- audience through state controlled media.

They know precisely how to apply and massage the cultural axioms that exist there where someone has to look like the hero, and the other must look like the villain. But herein lies the rub that many in the West arent shown.

The -astonishing- fact of Chinese -face- is, (from the Taiwanese-Chinese perspective):

Say this was a car accident, the person who caused it would be gracious and SO WOULD the victim!

There's no bellicosity nor arrogance to be shown in situations like these. The two parties would be literally falling over each other in trying to maintain an -equal- level of "face" so that both have an equal sense of dignity when they "walk away", the problems or repirs are taken care of and be on with your life.

It is NOT this "in your face" bellicose Bull-Sheet-Rock that sprouts forth from the Mao Mandarins in Beijing now, nor the trolling forth of the pilots wife insulting the US President on TV or a letter read on the air, to the man-on the street interviews in Beijing saying the US pilot should be put on trial!

This is totally -opposite- the system I am used to.

This PRC spin on "face" for them though is the core thought pattern at heart. It runs truly counter to the -Classic and Traditional- Chinese version of it that I am used to.

The -Civil and Gracious- method versus -Barbarian and Coarse- contexts are being proven out.

Regards
MAC

Just a thing of note, Asian parents seem to push their kids to take violin and piano lessons more so than other ethnicities do. The Huntsville Metropolitan Youth Orchestra (the METRO) has quite a few Asian-Americans in it, more so than the expected amount of a minority. I've always thought that Asian parents really pushed their children to excel in school. The analogy to the PRC leaders being smart bullies is the best I've ever heard.

MAC_Veteran, I thank you for the excellent article, but I must confess that I don't understand why it's so dire. China's single advantage is its huge population, and that's a helluva an advantage, but I can't think of any other. Why can't we expect to crush China (that does sound a bit like wistful thinking) militarily and economically? I'd greatly appreciate it if you could answer my question.

I can't speak for every American, but that flag means something to me.

I particularly like the last sentence in MAC_Veteran's NewsMax article:

A bright light burns in the White House; he is married to an educator.

I say thank God it's not self serving Al Gore and the flighty Tipper.

MD-90

I will forward two -very- thorough links to get you up to speed on why there is a sense of urgency inside the PRC to re-arm and modernize their military and how they very much want to push the US out of Asia. The massive trade angle is explored in some manners in that the ordinary person does not understand that if trade with the PRC is cut off, it effectively undermines their cash-base to buy and build the weapons programs they are so actively seeking! -That's precisely IT!-

Unfortunately, many intellectual dummies populate the world community (heretofore referred to as "sheeple') and believe trade with the PRC is done under the precepts of "trade makes freedom". This is wrongheaded thinking and an intellectual absurdity. The implications of this are that they are either completely unaware (being the good sheeple they are), or are in complete -utter denial- and -know- the implications of what they are espousing. The former are 'played like violins', the latter described are the more sinister, and knowing of the implications. More responsible. Most of this latter, more cunning group who espouse this 'thinking' are people who only seek to profit for -themselves- off of the cut of their investments they have made there. To which they do quite handsomely in some cases, but the flip side to this that isnt quite publicly discussed are the -PRC government coffers- reaping a *MASSIVE* share as well, paid in taxes, levies, etc, as the logical price for doing business in the PRC. This money then gets folded into the PLA's military expansion project underway. It generally does not make it back to the average citizen of the PRC whatsoever. The profiteers and investors in China could give a collateral rats-ass-less what happens as a result. This explains the brash selfishness of those who are only motivated by profits and not by principle. Again, this has happened before during the 1930s; it happened in Hitler's Germany.

Many cannot understand this piece to the puzzle and as history has shown us once before, events and circumstances develop to the point where it's too late to react in time to prevent a tragedy. Hopefully we will catch on beforehand.

This message needs to be hammered out and understood: The profits from investment and industry in the PRC -pay- for their militarist ambitions! The best antedote to this is to -boycott products made in the PRC-. That -will- get the PRC government's attention. Then they may be willing to cooperate then and this dangerous period we are entering will become a past memory. It will bring their ambitions of conquest to be frozen from under them and a catastrophe being averted.

Here are the reports:

First up is:

CHINA'S STRATEGIC MODERNIZATION:IMPLICATIONS FOR THE UNITED STATES
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/doctrine/chinamod.htm

This is a very large PDF file, 230 pages+ in length, 692K in download size. Download the file and use Adobe Acrobat reader to peruse it, if you have a lot of paper and a fast printer (G), you may want to print it out and read it that way.

It goes in and translates Chinese PLA officer's comments about their strategic ambitions and plans. Let's just say that they have taken a page from Hitler's 'How to create a war' playbook in how -he- planned a war machine, built an industrial base to support it and then executed the "grand scheme of things"; but frighteningly, some things planned by the PLA are demonstrably much better for their side and appear to be much more effective. The days of thinkig the PLA is some backwards force to be laughed at are thoroughly debunked in this report.

I went over the report this afternoon and it will grab your attention. Read it several times, it will take a while digesting it. Keep in mind, this report was written 2 years ago. The seriousness of it applies now more than ever. Funny how this report didnt get much play in the media, -then-, either.

Second up is:

The Chinese Missile Threat: A photo essay for special reports
http://www.cdiss.org/China_Essay.htm

This report lays out three major missile systems the PLA forces have fielded, what they can do and where they are intended to be used. Photos of the various missile systems are available for view. Takes the cloak off the picture just a tad. At least one of the missile systems shown were used to intimidate Taiwan twice in recent years by live fire testing into waters immediately off Taiwan's shores.
If that's not intimidation, what is?

Regards
MAC

I just hope that China does the same thing that USA did to the Soviet MiG-25 when it landed in Japan!

Take that EP-3 apart, study every bolt and after that send it back to the USA in BOXES!

I would not be surprised if some time after that China would start manufacturing EP-3!