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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 8:10 am

WN boy, I agree- this is WAY too convenient. I believe it was as intentional as it can get. And no doubt its being used as a propaganda item- one only has to look on this very thread to see that.

Late developments- the aircraft in question had on board lots of intelligence documents that may or may not have been destroyed. If these fall into the Chinese hands (assuming they already haven't in the past eight years), the intelligence community has sure taken a blow.

>What I am surprised is why the aircraft decided to land in Hainan.

Same here. If I were on board, I'd probably be thinking of national security instead of my life.

My feelings are that we should immediately step up to DEFCON 3 because the Red Chinese haven't been cooperating (its been nearly three days) whatsoever. Lets see how the Chinese feel when suddenly half our military is at a higher state of readiness.

>Would it be possible to send in a S.E.A.L. team to destroy the plane to prevent the Chinese from obtaining any further intelligence from it?

No- they would be killed. The security where the USN aircraft is being held is no doubt extremely high. I believe dropping a smart bomb on the aircraft may be a viable solution though.
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 8:27 am

Dropping a smart bomb is too're putting the lives of US pilots at risk. If there is any action, my bets are on the Tomahawk.

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 8:35 am

You are right, but the thing with the Tomahawk is it's accuracy. The last thing you want to do is accidentally hit something other than the plane, the worst of which would be the cells where the Americans are being held. There would have to be some good way to cover the bombers in order to destroy the aircraft, but maybe not.

I was also thinking about why the CINCPAC hasn't stepped up his readiness and maybe moved more assets into the region. As of last night, US Pacific Command only had the USS Kitty Hawk in the South China Sea- days from the nearest carrier group.

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 8:37 am

>>"This situation will get out of hand. It will get out of hand until it is out of control!"

I love the quote first uttered by now-Senator Fred Thompson (R. Tenn.) in his role in "The Hunt for Red October." Good call, Akula!
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 8:45 am

Dont forget shooting down a Iran Air A300 because it looked like a F15 !!!

Fact is most of you guys just support the states. Thats fair but dont be rude about it.

How can we be so sure the P-3 did not hit the jet ??.

The crew will be seen today, so I'm sure baby bush will come out with the report later today. In my view I think China should let them go ASAP but should hold the plane for a few days before letting them fix it. You know just to let them think what they did with it !!

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 8:54 am

>How can we be so sure the P-3 did not hit the jet ??.

Sigh... we've been over this over and over. Scroll up.

Guess what, Hkgspotter- not everything you see on state television is true, quite the contrary actually.

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 9:04 am

Way to many posts on this topic to read them all, two things I noticed... This was a US NAVY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EP-3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT AN AIR FORCE PLANE, NOT AN AIR FORCE E-3!!!!!!!!


RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 9:07 am

WASHINGTON, April 2 (UPI) -- Three U.S. Navy destroyers were sent home from special deployment near the Chinese island of Hainan where a damaged U.S. spy plane and its 24-member crew are being held. The USS Fitzgerald, USS Higgins and USS Hewitt were ordered to return to their home port of San Diego.

Moving to a distance outside Chinese air cover to launch a Tomahawk strike?

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Hkgspotter1: A Surprise Not Known About IranAir

Tue Apr 03, 2001 9:13 am


I want to share with you something that is NOT well known about the IranAir A300 shootdown.

I had a friend and classmate I knew since 3rd grade tell me a very alamrning story about that very incident you are attempting to use as some sort of 'justification' to punish the US.

My friend was a US Navy medical corpsman *quite* intimately involved in US Navy crash recovery effort after that unfortunate incident.

He was on an amphibious/helicopter carrier in the area at the time of the incident. We were involved with escorting re-flagged Kuwaiti oil tankers into and through the Strait of Hormuz.

He personally had to go in and 'fish' bodies out of the Persian Gulf.

He informed me that the A300 was trailed at each wingtip by IRANIAN F-14 Tomcat jets that were sold to Iran during the Shah's time. They deliberately flew CLOSE to the wingtips of the A300 so the IFF codes would indicate a hostile aircraft. They knew DAMMN well what they were doing. This was a suicide mission.

He also told me that the bodies were 'fished' out of the water (less than 3 hours after the incident) ALREADY had "Rigor Mortis" set in! He also told me that many of the bodies were severely decomposed. If you know something about Medicine and what happens after the human body dies, "Rigor mortis" is when the body stiffens into various shapes after death. This process takes around -8- hours at minimum to set in. Decomposition begins to set in around a day afterwards.

So, that said, can you explain to me why those bodies were already DEAD before the aircraft was shot down? He told me that the bodies he saw plucked out of the water had been dead at *least* 2-3 days. And this was -hours- after the incident. A little forensic research needed eh? Something a "little fishy" here no?
Me thinks so.

Remember, this is around the time of the Iran-Iraq war and I wonder if a morgue somewhere witin Iran was "cleaned out" to facilitiate this deliberate setup. That was the view of my friend and I've long wondered about it.

Was there a small amount of 'live' passengers aboard the aircraft, versus maybe a potential belly load of containerized human remains below? We'll never know.

The pieces he offered to the mystery fit quite well.

Let's not get off the subject of China and this incident. But I thought it would be appropriate to bring this shared view and recollection I've carried with me for many years.


RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 9:14 am

Looks like the predicted and executed GWB snub of China seems to have worked.

I lurv N766AS comments on so called 'watching state television'. I know I believe everything I see on 'CNN' is true...

The chest thumpers are out in force today..


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RE: Kill Two Bird With One Stone

Tue Apr 03, 2001 10:09 am

That would be nice Chiawei but unfortunately, the government/business "bipartite" that exists in many countries wont let this happen.

Money talks, or as the Chinese word "hun-pao" ('money under the table') defines, -Money is everything-. Money -gets you everything you want. And they know precisely how to use this as an effective economic tool crafted into a weapon that will gradually give them strategic power and eventual victory of their aims and ambitions of such. These are very crafty and smart people, they are -not- stupid.

They have quite successfully used money to influence US Presidential elections and the international business community. These same leaders then pressure politicians in their own countries to allow sales of sensitive technology (eg. LORAL) and selling out their own workforce to move operations and manufacturing to the PRC, which then in turn allows same business leaders to entice -stockholders- the promises of profits and lower costs to increase "shareholder value" because of this.

Quite a "VISCIOUS cycle" eh?

This sell out is now quite definable as one of the major underpinnings to the PRC strategy to undermine and attempt to use whatever form of blackmail and influence to get what they want, be it through money, intimidation to invade or missile attack you, test missiles off your shores, influencing US presidential elections, etc.

The methods used are something Gangland era Al Capone couldnt have done better.

The stupidity and duplicity of people outside of the PRC to allow this is incredible. The use of these means by the PRC is deplorable.

The ultmate conclusion of this ends in the PRC government's mind when their PLA troops are goosestepping on parade through Taipei, Taiwan and the democratically elected leaders of Taiwan "dealth with" PRC style (which generally involves 3 bullets to the back of the head).

That will be their ultimate conquest.

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Bush Demands Return Of Plane, Crew

Tue Apr 03, 2001 10:12 am

Maybe someone already posted this, but here it is just in case:

Monday April 2 7:51 PM ET
Bush Demands Return of Plane, Crew

By TOM RAUM, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - In a tense standoff with China, President Bush (news - web sites) demanded the prompt return of 24 crew members of a Navy spy plane Monday and the release of their crippled plane ``without further damaging or tampering.'' China said there would be no access at least until Tuesday.

Bush, reading a sober statement at the White House, said, ``Failure of the Chinese government to react promptly to our request is inconsistent with standard diplomatic practice and with the expressed desire of both our countries for better relations.''

The emergency landing of the turboprop EP-3 surveillance plane on the Chinese island of Hainan after its collision with a Chinese fighter jet early Sunday brought a new chill to already frosty U.S.-Chinese relations just as Bush was nearing a decision on an arms-sale package for Taiwan that Beijing has opposed.

The crew, in one of its last communications from the plane, told U.S. authorities the aircraft was being boarded by the Chinese, a senior U.S. official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. But Mary Ellen Countryman, a White House spokeswoman, said: ``We have no confirmation that they boarded the plane.''

As a result, U.S. officials had no information on the extent to which the plane, laden with high-tech surveillance equipment, might have been searched. The United States considers the aircraft sovereign U.S. territory and not subject to search or seizure.

China blamed the collision on the American pilot, saying the U.S. plane veered into one of its F-8 fighters.

Navy spy planes fly routinely off China's southeastern coast to monitor military activity, especially any that might threaten Taiwan, and they are often shadowed in turn by Chinese fighter planes.

As tensions grew on Monday, the United States ordered three Navy destroyers to remain near Hainan island instead of continuing their journey home from the Persian Gulf. Later, Pentagon (news - web sites) officials said the three ships no longer were needed and continuing with their original plan to return home via Guam.

The United States sent three diplomats to the island in hopes of meeting with the crew.

``Our priorities are the prompt and safe return of the crew and the return of the aircraft without further damaging or tampering,'' Bush said on the White House lawn.

Later, during a picture-taking session in the Oval Office with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak (news - web sites), Bush sidestepped questions on whether the crew members were viewed as hostages or whether he believed the accident to be a provocation by China.

``My reaction is that the Chinese must promptly allow us to have contact with the 24 airmen and women that are there and return our plane to us without any further tampering,'' said Bush, facing the most difficult foreign situation of his young presidency.

At the State Department, spokesman Richard Boucher said, ``We see this as an accident, as a midair accident. That's what we know.''

As to the condition of the crew members, Boucher said, ``What we've been told is that they're safe and that they're well. And we appreciate that, but we need to speak to them directly for us to find anything more out about the conditions and the situation.''

Despite Bush's demand for prompt access, China indicated there would be none before Tuesday night, China time, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said. That would be Tuesday morning in Washington.

``We find it very troubling about the lack of speed. We continue to press for prompt access,'' McClellan said.

At the Pentagon, spokesman Rear Adm. Craig Quigley said the spy plane's left engine and left wing were damaged. The plane is from an electronic reconnaissance squadron whose home base is Whidbey Island Naval Air Station in Washington state.

The Chinese fighter that collided with the American plane crashed into the sea and the pilot was missing. The other fighter returned safely. The United States offered to help China in locating its missing aircraft and pilot, but the offer drew no response from Beijing.

The episode created a serious diplomatic situation for both nations.

Anti-American sentiment in China still remains high two years after the mistaken bombing by an American warplane of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, Yugoslavia.

Chinese officials have also been leery of Bush's intentions after statements by administration officials suggesting he may take a harder line toward China than did former President Clinton (news - web sites).

China also opposes Bush's advocacy of a missile-defense system and has adamantly opposed Taiwan's request to the United States for the sale of four destroyers equipped with the Navy's most advanced anti-missile radar system.

In related developments:

-Gen. Henry H. Shelton, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said it was ``hard to imagine'' that the larger, relatively slow-moving turboprop-driven U.S. plane had initiated the collision. As to access to the crew, ``under international law, that should have happened long ago,'' Shelton told a group of newspaper editors.

-Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., urged calm after talking about the situation with Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites). ``To lower the temperature is the right way to proceed. This is a delicate matter now. We need to make sure that we deal with it quickly and in an appropriate way,'' Lott said.

-Joseph Prueher, the U.S. ambassador to China, said in Beijing that it was ``inexplicable and unacceptable and of grave concern to the most senior leaders in the United States government that the air crew has been held incommunicado for over 32 hours. The Chinese so far have given us no explanation for holding this crew.''

-Rep. Henry Hyde, R-Ill., chairman of the House International Relations Committee, said the situation ``will only be defused by China's immediate release'' of the crew and equipment. Sen. Fred Thompson, R-Tenn., said the Chinese ``always test a new president and I'm glad to see that the president is taking a tough stand.''


On the Net: Pacific Command Web site on the incident:

I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.


Tue Apr 03, 2001 10:21 am

MAC veteran.... I totally agree. This was all planned by IRAN to blame the US. I mean, they showed some of those bodies, and a few of them were damn near NUDE! They knew what they were doing. I am not saying the US is Saintly by any means, but, we were not the cause of that.

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RE: Mac_Vet

Tue Apr 03, 2001 10:32 am


I still get goosebumps up my back and my arms when I remember how my friend told me that story.

He looked me dead-in-the-eye and I knew he was telling me the truth and nothing but it. This was no leisurely chat bloated with bullshit. This was something he saw with his very eyes and he wanted to tell me about it.

The terrible thing about the IranAir A300 shootdown "justified" the terrorist destruction of another airliner:

Pan Am 103.



You've Got Your Own Little War...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 10:39 am

It sounds as if you were planning a war? So, it looks like you have your own little war, guys. You should hear some of the shit you're saying: Iran, IranAir A300, Pan Am 103... If you are, save it for the Penatgon, they could use all the help they can get!
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 10:41 am


Thanks for that. If true that is very horrible. The problem is how do we know whats going on in all of these situations ??

Just heard that on landing the P-3 of the UNITED STATES NAVY was boarded by chinese soldiers.

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:14 am

>I know I believe everything I see on 'CNN' is true...

Thats a mistake... CNN and the Ted Turner crowd isn't credible either. I was going at the point that PRC state television is nothing more than a propaganda tool for the government to stir up the people and make the Politburo look good. As one of our favorite radio talk show hosts said this afternoon, "The propaganda the ChiComms are using is right out of the Cold War handbook!"

>Why not simply ban all chinese goods into US

Exactly. A while back on this forum we were discussing this. I brought up the point that 'progressive sanctions' would work best so that we can pull out our corporations and have them move to other, democratic, non-totalitarian nations.

>Just heard that on landing the P-3 of the UNITED STATES NAVY was boarded by chinese soldiers.

I just hope the crew destroyed everything before the commies boarded... there are items of vital interest to the United States' national security.


RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:38 am

>China sucks, I feel sorry for their citzens who are trapped

As do I. I was actually talking with my friends about this today (stemming from the hostage taking of our sailors). We were trying to think about how it would be possible to ship citizens of the PRC out of the nation. Currently, they buy a ticket to the USA or Canada for US$40000+ (living in slavery basically when they come over) on a crowded, unsanitary shipping container. This is downright horrifying.
Screw the Politburo, we need to get as many people out as possible. Maybe if we could get one of our cargo ships over there and get hundreds of them at a time, providing sanitary conditions, not to mention food, for the ride to a free nation. I know its meddling in the affairs of another nation, but I can make an exception in the case of Red China.
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:55 am

Miss the cold war do we...?

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
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RE: You've Got Your Own Little War...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:58 am

There will be NO war if people learn from mistakes in history and of course, those committed in the present, and correct them. That means people should vote and take responsibility for their governments, their community and yes, their business community. All are accountable. The power to challenge and have backbone to do so is democracy's greatest gift. Those who hold the power are those who let you live.

In a democracy, the people are supposed to be the ultimate arbiter, and should be the ones with the power to decide, not the power of monied interests or priviledged to elitely decide for their own 'best' interests.

Be they "shareholders" of a company hell bent on making profits at any cost, even if it means commtting potentially treasonous acts like selling missile technology to a sworn strategic foe while they layoff your neighbors and friends so they can move their business there to "enhance shareholder value". Try asking Rupert Murdoch, or AOL TIME Warner's CEO (who has said he is a "very good friend" of Chinese President Jiang Zemin) a question or two about this subject.

Where are -they- being held accountable?

To a career politician who seeks re-election at any cost, even if it means committing treasonous acts like receiving money via various laundered means from the top General Staff of the Chinese People's Liberation Army. A despotic regieme that hurts it's own people and threatens other countries.

If you hand over your power by not voting and dont question things, then get ready for someone to take that right from you. They most like will enjoy it too.

Identifying these arent clamors for war, they are simply pointing out the obvious and the truth. It's a demand for accountability.

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This Is Long But I Hope Worth A Read....

Tue Apr 03, 2001 1:10 pm

Hi. My name is Chris Morgan. Im European, Welsh actually, and I like americans. I like your country, and i like the people that you are. I like the neverending stream of humanity which seems to emanate from you. I like the way the American nation collectively feels its own responsibility toward other members of the human race. President Clinton said "We are living in the most multi racial, multi cultural, multi religious democracy in the history of the human race." I like that. This is not a political speech. Its not even a speech. I would like to voice my opinion on this. I may voice my own feelings on some matters which some of you may not agree with. That is your choice. The mere fact that a) you have a choice: "dare to disagree", and b) you are free to make such a choice, neatly sums up the backing behind what i have to say.
I think there are larger issues in play here than merely the forced landing and cpature of an American spyplane. These issues are not, however, the same issues you have all been pontificating about. Firstly let me express my heartfelt sympathy towards the crew of the aircraft, and their families. This is a horrible thing to happen, and regardless of who was at fault, it must be prevented from happening again. As I see it, the EP3 Orion was carrying out various recce duties in the datum of the attack, and the Chinese sent interceptors to ward off the prelude to a border incursion. These included (correct me if im wrong), ELINT, and TAC-ELINT surveilance, and i am of the understanding that the EP3 carries a scaled down version of the J-STARS airborne ground surveilance radar. There is no reason to assume that the crew miscalculated thir postion, as their military grade GPS makes this highly unlikely. More likely, the Chinese detected the EP3 at full standoff range and sent fighters to intercept, as per usual operation doctrine. Just a thought, if this EP3 aircraft was so packed full of electronic gadgetry and what have you, then wouldnt the chinese be interested in air to air pictures? Here they have license (there's nothing the EP3 can do to evade or elude) to conduct close formation flying stations on this aircaft. Spying on the Spy perhaps? Who knows. What we do know is that the Orion sustianed damage to the horizontal stabiliser, and the wing. I think, given the position of the damage, that the Chinese fighter was conducting high speed passes close aboard, and that one such pass resulted in a minor colision, which was enough to destroy the J8, and force the Orion to ground. Ok so now the Orion is on the ground on Hainan island. What now? the Chinese politburo may have little to decide on the fate of the aircrew. It may ultimately rest with the local Comissar and so unless the USA are really intimidating with their threats, and expressions of deepest dissapointment, the Chinese are unlikely to bend on this, as the Politburo will not order something which is not idealogically correct, unless they have to, especially not to a commissar, as he represents the closest link the Chinese people have to high level Idealogical Chinese Maoist Communism. If they Politburo ae clever, and we know they are VERY clever, if not particularly concerned with the rights of the individual. If they are clever, they will release the crew, direct to the Americans, with a big PR fanfare of how merciful they are, and how these foreign criminals are being mercifully and compassionately given over to their families, in a show that the PRC really isnt so bad after all, to the worlds press. This gains popularity with the people, and the world is pleasantly surprised at the new soft line that the PRC is taking. The usual insistance that a court martial should take place as soon as they get back to the US, will be sent along with the crew back to the US. This will be a direct result of the decision of the Politburo and will have nothing to do (much) with the threats of sanctions, and bribes of favourable tarding conditions offered by the US government. So what if the threats and bribes dont work? Well then American Foreign Policy comes into play. Since the 70's the United States has enforced a carrot and stick policy which has been base to all foreign policy doctrine since then. The Carrot is permitted access to the vast free trade market of domestic USA, and the vast sums of money to be gained in such trade, and the stick depends on the President. Nixon's big stick was the B52. Reagan's big stick was the Ohio class SSBN. Bush's big stick was the Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Clinton and Dubya's big stick is the whole carrier group. Specifically, the Air group embarked on the carrier, the MAU embarked on the Tarawa class helicpoter landing ships, and most importantly, the Tomahawk cruise missiles carried by the two Aegis Cruisers, and two Aegis destroyers, and by the two Los Angeles batch 3 SSN escort subs. All in all the most potent fighting force anywhere in the world. Add to that the NATO assets which will typically include more destroyers and frigates, and perhaps an Aircraft carrier, and certainly a Tomahawk capable SSN, or SSK. There is no way China could defeat one carrier group, let alone the three that the USN always have close by. Please understand, i'm a military operations analyist in training, and i know what im talking about. The number of aircraft china have is irrelevent. The number of Anti shipping missiles is also irrelevent. There are very few ways of taking out a carrier group, and the only one i can think of is to do as the CIC says. China does not have a navy that is a threat to the Americans in the the theatre. They have diesel attack submarines of the Kilo, Tango, Foxtrot, and Juliet classes. They have Victor 3 SSN's. None of the above is a match for a Los Angeles. I could go on all night as to the detailed operational and tactical and technological reasons why, but the point is, once Dubya sends in a Carrier Group (or more than one) then the Chinese HAVE to do as he says. Failure to comply with the demands set out by Pres Bush will ultimatley result in the swift destruction of great swathes of Chinese Naval Ar Power, including their most modern front line fighters. Then, China will lose her ability to wage sea war, by losing her entire offensive naval force. China knows this, and the mere presence of a CBG will be enough to force the issue. I'd be VERY surprised if a shot was fired, or indeed if the CBG even gets to China, as the political noises will be enough i suspect. The reason why China appears to cave in so easiliy? But you all thought they were murdering barbarians with no can they know the concept of mercy after what they did to Tibet and the Dalai Lama? Perversely, the reason is actually more Economics than Geography or Ancient History. Economically, China cannot afford to lose the USA as a business client. It would bankrupt the nation, and the people would ultimately starve. The Politburo holds more fear in the wrath of the people than in anything Pres Bush can conjure up. History shows this is a very wise position to take. To see a resolution to this matter, we must look into the minds of those who are the PRC, specifically, the high council, and the rest of the Politburo. Contrary to what CNN will have you believe, these people are not savages. They are a nation of the wisest, most cultured, and downright clever people. Confucias was Chinese. Buddhism is essentially a Chinese concept. They are a nation of survivors. Whatever the outcome of this situation is, i am certain it will serve chinese interests one way or the other. The Politboro is not thinking "Shall we give them back?" but more along the lines of, "What are the best terms we can get for their release?" China is not ready to fight America. It is not an even struggle. The High Council know this, and will push as hard as they can, right up to the point where the patience of the US govt snaps, and direct action is needed. Just before breaking point is reached, as the cries of the Aircrew's families become to loud to bear, the Chinese will strike a deal. I couldnt even begin to speculate on the terms, but rest assured, the chinese will do very well out of this. There. That is my detailed hypothesis of the China Issue. Let me know what you think. Id love to actually have a good informed debate on this....

As for all the chest beating of the "We are the centre of the free world-Europe sucks, and we should liberate the Chinese from their oppressors" crew, i have an opinion, but unlike yourselves, I feel this to be outside the scope of this discussion, and so if you want to know what i really think about China and its image problem, then by all means e-mail me, and i'd be delighted to share it with you.

In the meantime, let me say a couple of things. Firstly, the US aircrew are being treated well. The Chinese would not dare harm them, as they know a Special Forces operation is well within the scope of the Americans, and NATO, and by harming the aircrew it forces the Americans to think seriously about a delta force incursion, which the Chinese do not wnat as these things are rarely failures, and the prisioners hold great value for them. Secondly, let me state my awe and admiration of the men and women who do go up in these aeroplanes knowing that capture by the Chinese is a very real possibility. They are a credit to their nation, as our British forces are to ours and so on. Its is something that would scare me, and to do it voluntarily as a job, is something i respect greatly.

Thanks for reading this far....

Best Wishes
Chris Morgan
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 5:26 pm

Maybe you would like to give us the name of this "friend" of yours. Why? Because he has told you information which we know nothing about....ONLY this....about the two F-14's flying on the wingtip of the A300. Where does this information come from? And who released it? Why hasn't it been reported in the press?


Because it is a load of you-know-what.


America fucked up in shooting down IR855 (ADMIT IT!!!)
America fucked up in bombing the Chinese embassy in Belgrade (ADMIT IT!!!)
China and/or America may have fucked up in this latest incident (until the facts are known on exactly what happened we don't know that is true and what is smokescreen).

Like we have seen above, people have said "Don't trust anything the Chinese media says"....but we are supposed to believe 100% what the American media says? Both sides are being fed information from their respective governments. I still remember when Iran Air 855 was shot down by the Vincennes, all the information coming out via the Yankee media. Today, it is known (by the admission of the Vincennes crew) that this information was a load of horseshit!! But we are meant to believe the American media right? We are meant to believe the American media when they lie and twist the truth on our crime rate and gun control laws here in Australia....right? The American media wouldn't deliberately lie to the public....would they???

Anyway, my reason for even posting on this "what has become a" trivial thread, is that this incident, was an accident. Even if the American aircraft was outside of Chinese territorial airspace, the Chinese had the same rights to fly with the aircraft to ensure it did not encroach upon Chinese territory. The Americans would do the same to a Chinese aircraft if it was flying in international waters just outside of America.

How about people spare a thought for the pilot who is now missing?

Too hard right...when a piece of machinery is more important.

Where is the value in human life.

And about this damn American aircraft.

As usual, all the usual suspects have piped in in this thread with "Leave the aircraft is sovereign US property". What a crock of shit.

Do these people then mean to tell me that when a Soviet pilot defected with a MiG-25 in Japan, that they handed the aircraft back to the Soviet's without looking at or taking apart the aircraft? The MiG-25 was Soviet sovereign territory. Not the property of that pilot. The Americans have done exactly the same thing with MiG-29s.

Would the American government do the same thing if this was a Chinese aircraft on their territory? Damn straight they would.

If you guys can't deal with things like espionage and all that, you need to wake up. I don't like it, but at least I realise it is a part of international relations.

How about everyone stop talking about a piece of damn metal, and start talking about the SAR effort for the missing Chinese pilot?
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:28 pm

It reminds me a greek saying: "The thief is shouting to scare the landlord".

China is an independent country and, as every country, does not like "moles" to put their noses inside.
The plane was a spyplane, that means that it took off with a specific mission to collect information to be used against China. No country would tolerate that in international airspace or not.

I live in Greece but it could be anywhere. I don't like America to tell me how to live, I don't like America to spy my country. I don't like anyone to spy me.

Why would China tolerate a spyplane to cross its border? Would you???

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Strip Check The Whole Plane!

Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:37 pm

I think what the Chinese should do, is to check thw whole aircraft and see what the freaking HELL this AMERICANS are spying at !! Destroying the aircraft would even be a better decision !!

The AMERICANS are always full of shit. They even flew over Russian airspace before and they have been caught several times !! Only this time the CHINESE made a big deal about it and thats a bloody gOOd thing to do !!

If it was the CHINESE or RUSSIANS entering their airspace, they would immediately order to check the whole aircraft and says it is for safety reasons !!

This is my OWN personal opinion except for a few .. !

Source: Unknown  Angry
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Tue Apr 03, 2001 7:05 pm

You probably don't know this but about 1974(ish) a Soviet recon aircraft flying in the Bering Strait. Anyway they ended up not being able to make it back to their home base at Magadan or to their Alternate at Anadyr. So they ended up setting their aircraft down on the airstrip at Gambell, Alaska.

They crew spent the night on the Aircraft and excepted some food/blankets from the civilian population. Anyway the next day the Air Force sent a C-130 up there with a fuel bower and GPU. They got the airplane fueled and on their way back home.

No inspections, No forced confinement, No problem and this was at the height of the cold war!
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Tue Apr 03, 2001 7:27 pm

So about this incident, suddenly all these anti-China posts on human rights etc, just shows how pathetic it is.
What has this got to with China's internal problems, again just people maniupulating the situation to put their biased views on China.
USA fears the rise of China
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 8:14 pm

Just look at the word "Yankee" that you are using to describe americans.. It's a Dutch last name that was translated wrong because of mispronunciation a few hundred years back..

Realize Americans are made up of a bunch of foreigners from Europe, Africa, Asia, The middle East.. And maybe a few dozen native Americans. Now if you look at the Chinease section of that population in the states they are predominently from Taiwan not the Mainland (yeah you can blame this on visas or whatever you want) and they hapen to be doing extreamly well.. Just look at the breakup of Harvard/Princeton/Stanford students. Now with lots of education and lots of money comes lots of influence and a lot of donations to a lot of politians, then you combine the fact that they are in conflict with a communist nation (which for some reason americans will always be afraid of) and its not hard to see why Americans have a problem.

And please don't give me any human rights BS... Every American knows that problems with China have nothing to do with human rights I have never heard anything of America ever getting involved in a conflict over human rights issues, and usually human rights issues only get worse when America is involved in a conflict. Of course they like to use human rights as an excuse but it is NEVER the reason. The conflict with China is about two things MONEY and POLITICS nothing else.... cheap labor and poor working conditions are just a part of economic growth. And last I remember America seemed to be having there own human rights controversy with the UN for trying to execute minors (wasn't that in your presidents state!!!!) And hopefully you won't shoot all the Chinease that you plan to "save" from communism like the Mexicans trying to escape the US backed "regime" in Mexico. Maybe if you close of China to the rest of the world it will improve everything including human rights, seeing as the people of Iraq are doing so well..

The US position on human rights it "extreamly" questionable at best. The fact is and as said before is that China is looking to become the next major world power and this is seen as a direct threat to the US. When the US finally realizes that their own economy can't compete with any other nations linked to China and the huge population/market. then they will come to there senses and finally work something out with them. Of course this will only happen once Bush is out of office. So for the next 4 years we (in the rest of the world) will get to watch the US and China play cold war games, and hope that neither side slips and presses the wrong button destroying the rest of the world. Did you people learn nothing from the lasst cold war?

"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 9:16 pm

Right now, IMHO that China did this intentionally and is trying to throw the blame at us...this is only preliminary...when I get more info I will try to re-evaluate the situation...

Chief college football stadium self-pic guru
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 9:19 pm

Once again, an interesting topic to read (not always informative, but interesting). Thanks, guys! registered User #136 :mrgreen:
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 10:44 pm

Mac-vet. You really made my evening. What an idiot you are. I hope you are not in the State Department. But your blustering is funny.
What do I think?
1) It was an accident
2) China is a bully which does some despicable things to its people. But the Chinese people are not evil.
3) USA is a bully which does some depicable things to its people. But Americans are not evil.

Neither side is any better or worse than the other. Lets's hope this can a be resolved peacefuly before it gets serious. Let's hope the US guys get home safely. And lets pray the Chinese pilot didn't die.

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RE: MAC Veteran..

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:09 pm

MAC: Again, excellent topical comment and analysis. I unfortunately agree with you that confrontation with the PRC is inevitable and, having fought in one land war in SEA, I'm not relishing the prospect of my sons fighting in another.

I am very concerned over the long-term upgrade and expansion of the air, surface and subsurface forces fielded by China. They now dominate East Asia and the
future seems to be pointing towards the neutralisation of S. Korea and Japan as potential rivals. In this, the PRC seems to be following a dual track:

a. Upgrade and expansion of regional tactical and strategic forces to threaten/neutralise/dominate US allies and friends in the region. This can be best seen in the acquisition of SU-30 a/c, modern Russian multipurpose destroyers, cruise missile equipped submarines as well as the deployment of theater nuclear missiles. Outside of Taiwan, the only state which seem to recognize China's long term destabilizing influence is Australia.

b. Economic reform which utilizes free market investment to upgrade industrial capabilities while bankrolling military expansion with a widening trade surplus from the West. This is frightening because this is where the Russians failed; they could not compete economically with the West, could not buy technology due to insufficient funds and could not keep pace with western developments because of an inherently incompatible economic system which could not adapt to changing economic and political considerations(and still can't).

I certainly hope that the EP-3 crew destroyed as much of the a/c's equipment as possible. Given how much technology China has acquired through investment as well as through covert activities, the US cannot afford to give free lunches. I am curious why the plane was not ditched instead. Certainly the was little chance the crew would not be rescued.

Best regards,


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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:21 pm

To Anti-American posters:

The American government isn't spying on China for the protection of American citizens, America is spying on China for the protection all of citizens in all free countries of the world, including you!!! Why isn't Australia, France, Japan, Brazil, Germany, etc, etc, etc spying on China? Because they don't have to!!!!!!! Get off your morale high-horses, you ungrateful boobs. Spying is a terrific way to prevent war. On behalf of the America're welcome!!!!!!!! Now sleep tight and sweet dreams.
"Shaddap you!"

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:24 pm

If the Chinese think that they can just board a United States Navy aircraft and remove equipment from it, as they apparently have, perhaps the United States should seize the next Chinese airliner that happens to land at LAX. That may compensate us for the loss of our aircraft and the compromise of its classified intelligence equipment.
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:37 pm

Creating international incidents and stockpiling nuclear weapons is making my sleep much better... Thank you America!

Oh I almost forgot thanks for denouncing the whole Kyoto agreement. It comforts me to know that America is making the earth nice and warm for all the homeless people out there who are probably suffering from horrible non democratic govt's.

This forum is going nowhere except the suggested deletion box....
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:53 pm

I love it how some suggest the deletion of any sentiment with which they do not agree. God, I miss the 60's when liberals actually favored free speech.
travelin man
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LI Just Found Out Last Night...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 1:13 am

... my cousin is one of the 24 airmen China is holding. I had been reading this thread, and suddenly it is very personal to me.

Since my uncle still has not heard from his son, and since China still refuses to let our country talk to its armed service men, it strikes me as strange that some people are viewing China as a "victim". After all the secrets they have stolen from us! OUR airmen were over INTERNATIONAL WATERS, hit by a Chinese plane (on purpose, or are the Chinese just bad pilots?), and now they are being held HOSTAGE.

Let my cousin (and the rest of our airmen) go. Don't play with their lives.

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 1:35 am


Outside of Taiwan, the only state which seem to recognize China's long term destabilizing influence is Australia.

This is somewhat untrue. Australia has an excellent relationship with the People's Republic. Ties were downgraded with Beijing after Tiananmen, but in recent years military links between Australia and China have become more cordial. People may think that Australia is simply an American lacky. This is untrue. Our country has it's own agenda, and is pushing ahead to further our goals in the region, i.e. East Timor. The people in power in Canberra realise that China is a nation which is not to be despised, instead a nation with which a friendly relationship should be built. The powers that be also realise that a weak China is not good for Asia. A weak China would be an even greater destabilising force in Asia.


Why isn't Australia, France, Japan, Brazil, Germany, etc, etc, etc spying on China? Because they don't have to!!!!!!!

I beg to differ here my good friend.

When the new Chinese embassy was built in Canberra, there was a massive diplomatic row (which was soon smoothed over), when it was discovered that ASIO had completely bugged the new diplomatic compound.

My country spies on every country with which we feel a need to spy on. As does America; as does Germany; as does Russia; as does Burkina Faso.

It is often thrown about that America does not spy on Australia, Canada or the United Kingdom. This is somewhat untrue. The CIA does not spy in these country's, however operatives in the State Department, Justice Department, and other Federal Departments, routinely spy on these countrys.

Our aims are very, very different, and this has to be realised.

Economic reform which utilizes free market investment to upgrade industrial capabilities while bankrolling military expansion with a widening trade surplus from the West. it is good for the goose (i.e. America) but not good for the gander (i.e. China)?

WN Boy

I love it how some suggest the deletion of any sentiment with which they do not agree. God, I miss the 60's when liberals actually favored free speech.

Call me a me a me a me a whale me what you will.

I support free speech and all of that, but what I do not support is when people talk utter crap, and then try to defend that diatribe with non and half-truths. (ala MACveteran).

If the Chinese think that they can just board a United States Navy aircraft and remove equipment from it, as they apparently have....

There is no proof that the Chinese have boarded the aircraft at all. Pure speculation on your behalf there.

The views of some posters on this thread are beyond belief, and somewhat contradictory.


Now let me make this quite clear.

China is not interested in taking over Asia in a military sense. They have come too far since Deng Xiaoping introduced free market reforms to China in the mid 1980s.

It still amazes me that people denounce communism in this day and age. Firstly, there is not one, and never has been, a communist country. Let's establish this fact first.

Let's just, hypothetically, say that China is a communist nation.

Do you really think that the government in Beijing would allow their citizens to have access to the internet. The very medium by which you are reading these words? Do you think that the Chinese government would allow Chinese people to travel overseas? Do you think that the government would allow Chinese citizens to own shares in private companies? Do you think that the goverment would allow their citizens to own private property? Do you think that the Chinese would try to find it's place on the world economic stage?

Not on your nelly!! These very ideals go against the very ideology of communism.

There is a rising middle class in China, as their markets perform, and as the country gets ready to enter the WTO, we will see the largest of the Asian "tiger" economies take its rightful place on the world economic stage.

As can be seen throughout history in the 20th century; when there have been "alternative-style" governments in power, real change hasn't come about via military confrontation or war.

Change has come about when the middle class burgeons.

China in 20 years from now will be a very different China from what you see today, or even in 5 years from now.

People really do need to realise that the world's largest country does have to be powerful to enable a region to be stable. China has ties with both the "Stalinist" north and the "democratic" south on the Korean peninsula. In fact, their ties with Seoul are actually more important to the leadership in Beijing, than the ties which China holds with Pyongyang. Why? Economics!


Here is an interesting note:

Hainan Island, which is where the American spy-plane is being held is also the home base of Hainan Airlines.

Why do I mention this?

Because Hainan Airlines is currently one of the two front-runners to become the 4th Chinese-designated airline to operate on China-America routes, after Air China, China Eastern Airlines and China Southern Airlines. The other airline vying for the designation is an unknown China Eastern Airlines subsidiary.

A decision on the new designation is expected in the coming weeks.
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Chinese Are So Honorable That They Steal

Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:06 am

Just heard from CNN that the EP-3 has been boarded and raided by chinese.

Like I said before its time to ban all chinese product from entering US market. Hopefully, chinese market will be in utterly ruins for decade to come.

The best way to deal with a barbaric country is by not giving it means to survive.
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Nuair Must Be Sleeping

Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:11 am

Like chinese are doing much better in cutting back on nuclear arms and cleaning up air.

Shanghai has by far the worst air quality in all of Asia.

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:18 am

Aviatsiya, to be clear, CNN, Fox, NBC, and the New York Times are all reporting that the last transmission from the aircraft was that armed Chinese soldiers were boarding the aircraft. In addition, CNN is reporting that its sources say that the Chinese have spent the last two days removing equipment from the aircraft. I did not just make this up. Perhaps CNN did, but I did not. Consequently, I stand by my original conclusion. That if China in fact has been looting the aircraft, which is, after all, property of the United States Navy and a sovereign piece of the United States no less than would be an embassy, then we should consider it appropriate to seize an Air China 744 at LAX as compensation.
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 2:36 am

Just one undisputable remark:
(also the reason why you all reacted so strongly.)

Right now, the USA is standing there with its trousers down on its knees and sadly there isn't much that can be done about it right now!
All the USA can hope for is that they'll manage to pull the Chinese their pants down too in the near future, but even then this will not change the current American embarrassement.

THeres nothing wrong with this you know guys.
That's how things go if you're engaged in this kind of military power games.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.
Nobody around the world would make a big deal out of this minor conflict, but what is very remarkable for us in Europe is what a bad looser the USA turns out to be.

If we were to end up in such a situation, we'd pull up our trousers and would sneak away for a while, but the USA even starts a public discussion with their pants down offering everybody a splendid view.
As you know, it takes a friend to tell you in such cases: you're making a fool of yourself...


RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 3:08 am

Europeans are jealous america rocks. thats it.

jealousy. we are better.
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 3:52 am

Sabenapilot, feel free to come closer and kiss Big grin. Exactly as you were doing when the Soviets were around. Sorry, European fellows, no way wanted to hurt you all, but since you are silent when one idiot speaks for all of you...
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 3:52 am

I support free speech and all of that, but what I do not support is when people talk utter crap, and then try to defend that diatribe with non and half-truths. (ala MACveteran).

Just one short comment--how far has our nation fallen when the definition of "free speech" is "any speech that I agree with."

It's a good thing that the American government largely still does not follow this sort of mentality of censoring what they do not agree with. The common liberal ideology is, however, trying to change this very slowly, whether people realize it or not. This is a perfect example of that. You might not like what MAC is saying, but frankly, as long as it doesn't break any forum rules, etc., who are you to complain to the administration about it? If I complained about *your* posts because I disagreed with them and tried to have them removed, perhaps you'd like it less. The only thing such actions can bring about is a politically correct state where no one can say *anything* because it offends someone else.

As to the issue at hand, this is going to be resolved diplomatically, and not on the forums of Shouting nationalistic rhetoric at each other is ridiculously childish and pointless. It certainly doesn't help the discussion tone here when people are constantly sniping at each other over whether their country is better than the other. I must admit some annoyance when our European friends go on their anti-American diatribes, but quite frankly, we're not saints, and I can admit that. In any case, the issue is not over which nation is better, or who can beat the other...the issue is 24 of our men being held captive in China. Until something breaks, that is the situation I think that warrants discussion.

RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 4:09 am

Hopefully after this incident the american people will see china for the evil communist foe they really are and stop wanting to treat them like allies just so some companies can make money. All these anti american posts are laughable.
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 4:19 am

OK, enough with the mudslinging...

And lets return to some serious discussion  Smile
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Nobody Seems To Be Paying Attention...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 4:24 am

Hi. In case you havent read my other post, I shall re-introduce myself. Im English. and I have had enough of all this nationalism. I tried to give you all a balanced view of the situaltion in hand, and my thoughts on it, and my (somewhat informed) opinion as to how I think it will be resolved. This is a forum. You meet here to discuss things. There have been a couple of posts that I feel have summed up the issue, and have offered something worth reading. The rest however is utter shite. Did I miss something? Is this a nationalism discussion now? Clearly most of you think so. I feel sorry for the chap who posted that he had family in the incident, and NOT ONE of you replied to offer your sympathy. Most of you were too busy writing things like:
"Europe sucks America Rules"
Since when was Europe an issue? I know fools suck as Sabenapilot have given us a bad name in this forum, but I assure you we actaully do have opinions worth listening to. I think most of you read my post up to.."and I'm European". Then you switched off. Why?
I tried to give you a summary, and you didnt like it clearly, because you couldnt find anyhting that you didnt like or disagree with. We lastly let me offer my sympathy to the chap whose Cousin was on that EP3, and let me also say that collectively, as a forum, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Forgive my condescending tone, but someone had to say it. To those who feel as i do, and who have actaully remembered what this forum is about, ie: not petty nationalism vomited forth by those who should know better. I suggest to whoever posted the topic, to re-start it, so we can get on with an informed discussion and exchange of ideas about this.
Thank you.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
travelin man
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RE: Nobody Seems To Be Paying Attention...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 4:32 am

Thanks Chris. You are classy and a very respected user of mine. I'm not so happy with the Chinese right now, as I am fairly certain they are violating every diplomatic rule in the book by detaining our airmen (and my cousin) without letting them talk to anyone from the US, including family.

But I agree, stop the petty nationalism. "My country is better than yours" should have no place in this forum.

And to China: Let them go.
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RE: Usaf Aircraft `bumped' By Chinese Airforce Jets...

Wed Apr 04, 2001 4:33 am

Aviatsiya: Your points are well taken. However, a couple of other points to consider:

No matter how cordial current relations are between Australia and the PRC, the Australian military seems to have concluded that the only state which is orienting itself towards the capability for long range power projection in Asia is the PRC and a number of potential military equipment acquisitions are being evaluated with that in mind. Undoubtedly your country has its' own agenda(stability in the northern archipeligos, insurgency in Papua/New Guinea), but your military chiefs are being prudent to consider all scenarios.

I hardly think that anyone in power, whether it is in Canberra or Washington, "despises" the PRC. You cannot ignore a country of 1.4 billion people, no matter how much you disagree with their politics or their philosophies. What you are seeing here is fundamental disagreement over how this affair is being handled. I cannot image the government of any country
not taking exception to one of its' aircraft being forced down and the crew held prisoner. Intense diplomatic pressure is the most level-headed response to just such a incident.

Sabenapilot: Your comments are nothing short of incredible. All you see in this affair is what a sore loser the US government is? I would like to think that your government would be equally "sore" if a Belgian a/c or Belgian citizens were involved...or at least you should hope so.


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Wed Apr 04, 2001 4:48 am

Great words, Chris... if it only was possible for everyone to remember them in every future thread here...

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