Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Boeing757/767
Topic Author
Posts: 2183
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 11:05 pm

Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:07 am

This is ridiculous. While I respect a company's decision to boycott, it sends the wrong message in an industry where aircraft parts come from the world over and an industry that transports people and goods around the world.

It's best to lie low and let the diplomats take care of it.

P.S. If I landed in China without a visa on a warplane, I would be detained as well!

Mesa Air Group to Boycott Goods and Services Produced by The People's Republic of China
PHOENIX, April 9 /PRNewswire/ -- Mesa Air Group (Nasdaq: MESA - news) announced today that as a result of the illegal detention of 24 American service personnel by the People's Republic of China, it would immediately implement a boycott of any and all goods and services manufactured by that country.

In making this announcement Mesa Air Group Chairman and CEO Jonathan Ornstein stated, ``We can not on the one hand continue ''business as usual`` while at the same time the People's Republic of China ignores international law and refuses to release 24 American service personnel. Mesa encourages our employees, other airlines and the Regional Airline Association to join in boycotting goods and services manufactured by the People's Republic of China until our service men and women are released. We hope that our action today will help in bringing this regrettable situation to a speedy and satisfactory resolution for all parties.''
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:12 am

Boeing757/767;

The plane was hardly a war plane. While yes it is a spy plane, it posed no threat to the Chinese. Additionally, the Chinese brought the plane down, and are illegally holding American Soldiers.

Boycott away! Bring our men home!
Climbing
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:34 am

In defense of the Chinese, a spy plane is somewhat of a threat to them. However, the Chinese SHOULD NOT HOLD THESE AMERICAN SERVICE PERSONNEL. Though I'm sure the US would detain the aircraft, the US would never hold 24 Chinese nationals for no sufficient reason. I understand China is upset they lost a pilot, and that a US spy plane landed right next to one of their "secret bases" but this is absurd. They cannot place all the blame on the US. How many P-3s do you know that can catch up and RAM an F-8????
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:59 am

My compliments to Mesa Air
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ryu2
Posts: 1557
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:08 am

I am from China but I think that is is inappropriate for any public corporation to use their business actions as a forum for any expression of unrelated political opinion.
 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:18 am

This really is ridiculous when both governments are exercising caution. Mesa really jumped the gun and is not helping the cause at all.
 
Greeneyes53787
Posts: 817
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 10:34 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:22 am

I, too, proclaim Mesa Air.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Thomas Reich



Nice picture isn't it.

Greeneyes
 
crjmech
Posts: 257
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2000 6:31 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:45 am

Greeneyes-
Ha! I wish we had something that good looking. But I guess our existing fleet is pretty sharp, even if only a mother could love the 1900D.

As for the boycott announced by the esteemed Mr. Jonathan, I'm keeping my opinions strictly on the down-low.
Thou shalt mind thine altitude,lest the ground reach up and smite thee.
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:54 am

Well, I applaud Mesa's decision. Its time that a major corporation finally stands up for what is right. With any luck, many will follow. Too bad it came this late though- the Chinese government has been quite uncivilized for some time now.
Theres a boycott thread going on right now on non-av forum, by the way.
 
USAirways737
Posts: 986
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:20 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:09 am

I hope other corporations will follow Mesa's example. The Chinese have no right to do what they are doing.

USAirways737
Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © James Richard Covington, Jr

 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7129
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:25 am

MESA just expresses in public what most people automatically think and do.
I wouldn't buy anything Chinese these days if I can avoid it. On the other hand I'm not going to throw away my $100+ Chinese produced jocking shoes.
Most people would think twice these days when they read "Made in PRC".
The longer this takes, the longer they will remember too.
The Chinese are not very smart.

As a Dane I hate to admit when Swedes are smart  Wink/being sarcastic
But when the Soviet submarine U-77 stranded on the Swedish coast (which was an entirely different thing, clearly an illegal act) then the Swedes helped them off the rock, searched the ship for seaworthyness, and told them to sail back home and tell their leaders that they had done something stupid.

That was smart. And no, the Chinese are really not smart. My country has acted in similar stupid ways, but that was back in the "Thirty Years War" 1518-1548. We are smarter today.

Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
tupolev154b2
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2000 9:01 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:19 am

It is inappropriate for a company to take such an action that should be free of public and political opinion.

The products that I buy are based solely on quality and how they fit my needs, not on political opinions.
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:42 am

What a load of BS. Who the hell do you yanks think you are ??

The USA is always pissing people off and now someone has said NO. Face it the USA just cant stand for someone to say NO to them.

How about China ???, The stupid yanks blew up their bloody embassy !, all the USA can say is `Oh sorry we had an old map' Yeah right.

----------------------------------

I do think that the Chinese plane did hit the P-3, however we do not know what they had been doing before they hit.

Mesa are very stupid. Tell me 100% that nothing in their planes or the products they sell is from China... I DONT THINK SO.

May be I'll burn the Mesa shirt I got in Phoenix last year !
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:43 am

Every company that has ever exsisted was founded by someone. If they want to boycott anything, it's entirely within their right to do so. It is not inappropriate.
 
ILOVEA340
Posts: 2064
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 1999 9:49 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break

Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:48 am

_________
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7129
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Tupolev154B2

Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:48 am

Yeah Tupolev154B2, you are right, at least as long as your brother or sister is not in the service.
It is simply too far away from you - beyond your horizon.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:56 am

Hmmmm...
...interesting (albeit not too commercial-aviation related) topic, and some very hard opinions in most cases.

How can it be inappropriate for a US corporation to express a corporate opinion? Do some of you REALLY believe US corporations need to censor their public statements to ensure they are "free of public and political opnion"? Are human rights in the PRC so diminished that these 24 are being held from home and family with no end in sight FOR A VISA VIOLATION? And, as consumers, have we degenerated to the point that we buy "solely on quality" and the fulfillment of our perceived needs, with no regard to ethics and the environment and the "quality" of the manufacturer? C'mon...
...either you guys love to test reactions with lots of wild statements, or you just don't understand "Freedom of Speech".

I've never been one to make a big deal about patriotism and the Fourth of July and all that but, when I saw Mesa's news release I thought "wow, here's a company that has enough heart to focus away from the dollar for a short while and make a risky statement." Good show, Mesa!!
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 10:08 am

What dollar ???
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 10:24 am

As I wrote elsewhere:

Does this mean that Mesa's mega-order for 75 Y-12 props and 15 Y-10 jets will now be cancelled? Whatever will the Chinese do? What about the plans Mesa had to apply under the next bilateral agreement, to start flights from Farmington to Suzhou? Are those plans now on hold as well?

Yep, I am sure the Chinese are going change their mind because a little two bit airline which operates regional airline services is boycotting their country's products.

Anyway, I am sure that the Chinese will sorely miss all of those hundreds of dollars worth of business which Mesa gives to them each year. The way that things in the business world are today, you will have a Chinese product without even knowing that it was made in China.

What next? Mesa boycotting Canadian goods because the Canadians are better hockey players?

Which "two-bit" airline will be the next to jump on this bandwagon?
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 10:36 am

...Mesa is not trying to break China financially by withholding their two-bits...

...Mesa is simply offering it's two-cents.

Isn't it great that, everywhere on this shiny blue planet, where people meet eye-to-eye, there is a universal eagerness to behold the opinion of others and a freedom to express one's own opinion? Gotta love it...!
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 10:58 am

>...Mesa is not trying to break China financially by withholding their two-bits...

You're exactly right. And that is where Brissie (aka Aviatsiya) is mixed up. Not everything is about money (as much as some people worship it)...
As Lsjef said, it is great to see a company look past the dollar and stand up for what is right. They may gain business from this or they may lose business from this. They don't know- they are just standing up for what they believe. And they are setting the example.
One can hope that more and more companies follow. Then it won't be "hundreds of dollars worth of business" but billions of dollars.

Wow- our values have really gone down the shitter if we think like Aviatsiya.
 
blink182
Posts: 5370
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:39 am

Go Mesa! I hope other airlines follow as well. This plane posed hardly any threat and the Chinese brought it down and are holding our men illigally and is an act of war. We want our men back! Go Mesa!
rgds,
blink182
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
yhu
Posts: 445
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:51 am

An Act Of War??? I hope you do realize that if the US did go to war against China, their would be no winner. They would both end up bombing each other with Nukes and blowing up the whole dam planet. I sometimes think the Americans are not happy unless they are on the brink of war with someone. The always have to have someone to hate.

I think what Mesa is doing is bad. Sure they have a right to express their opinion. But I'm worried that this will help the "Anti-China_ feeling growing in the US that will start this huge hatred over China. Not the Chinese Government, but of China as a whole. Next thing you know the US public will be hunting down Chinese-US citizens and assaulting them.
 
MAC_Veteran
Posts: 702
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 3:03 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:58 am

Good!

It's great to see a company stand up for principle! It's about dammn time!
Maybe other companies will follow suit. If enough of these "two-bit" airlines stood up, there could be more leverage to effect change to the Reich in Beijing. Then comes a groundswell, then a -mass-. That method worked with then South Africa, it's high time to employ the same to Beijing.

Funny, many like to mock the US for "picking on small countries", the vocal left pushed for divestment in South Africa back during the 80s and the pressure then mounted, worked. Apartheid was revoked and Mandela became president there. Ergo, where is the cry to do the same to a much larger country by the left? The answer is: No where. Are they collectively 'scared' while being the true collectivists they are? Or is it really a case of them agreeing with (or quietly winking towards) the ideology and 'methods' espoused by the regieme they now choose to coddle and stroke like they did with the former Soviet Union as well?

Is it a case of the 'the new nascent super power attracting moths by the dozen....to it's zapper'? The fascination with something to admire as a counter to the 'evil and wicked' US. We've been down this road before!

Are they 'in-the-closet totalitarians' themselves? Many in the modern left truly are. They seek to squelch debate entirely and mock ridicule of their newly-found favorite totalitarian regieme that fits their own selfish convenience. They admire power and the use of it. One wonders if they are the new elitist opportunists that enjoy the cheap pleasures and product of a slave-labor state and want to keep it that way? A homage paid to the land where they 'Live like a emperors..on 20 cents a day'!

The world wonders where the outcry from the modern left is. They screamed bloody murder about apartheid, but are curiously silent (being the good 'sheeple' they are) when it comes to China. Kow-tow how now!

It's simply incredible.

On a closing note, Here's a website I thought of interest, Arm youself with facts on a PRC opressed land here:

http://www.freetibet.org

MAC

 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:07 pm

By boycotting a whole country's wares, you are not hurting that government one little bit. You are hurting over 1 billion people. That is why boycotting of a whole nation is not the ideal situation.

However, I do support the boycotting of individual companies....i.e. Nike because of their business dealing and outright slavelike conditions in South-East Asia; because that boycott will hurt the company.

One also has to wonder exactly how many parts on the CRJs which Mesa operates are made in China. Are they then going to demand that any aircraft which Bombardier makes for the airline, to be free of any Chinese-manufactured parts?

Mesa will also be hurting themselves in the sense that by boycotting a whole country, they are sending out the wrong signal to the Chinese people. Although their Chinese passengers are probably far and few between, those Chinese who would fly Mesa would fly elsewhere.

And for Mesa to do this is so hypocritical.

Are they also going to boycott Colorado and Georgia because of those state's draconian laws dealing with gay people?

Are they going to boycott Mexico because of that governments dealings with the Chiapas problem?

C'mon Mesa...come to the party and show us all that your company is not hypocritical and "has SOME balls".
 
MAC_Veteran
Posts: 702
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 3:03 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:18 pm

Aviatsiya

Do you understand that the taxes made by the PRC to businesses that invest in the PRC go directly to fund the expansion of the PRC military machine and security service? Havent you known of this fact?

Boycotting and divestment -has- worked in recent years, South Africa is an excellent example of that. There is a price to be paid of course, but you need to see the larger picture of affecting changes to rid ourselves of totalitarianism. You cannot buy or trade your way with a determined, statist regieme like the PRC that fully intends to keep it's employing it's fetid ways no matter how much you trade with them along with helping them with the cash to arm them with a military the world does not want to see unleash war with. Cutting off their cash flow, cuts off their means to do harm with, cant you see that? It's elementary.

Boycotting and divestment are the perfect tools to employ to help effect this change, outright conflict either internally or externally are the only other way. Which way to you prefer? Mass Bloodshed helped along by the taqxes and levies made in the businesses that are built and invested there? Or a few years of difficult economic times for them and some toys not being available?

It seems very simple to see this point, the left argued this point quite successfully with South Africa during the 1980s. They employed the same across the board effort to force companies to divest themselves of South African investment then. Why cant this -proven- method be used now?

MAC
 
Guest

About Time

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:28 pm

It is about time American companies send an economic message to the chinese. I'd absolutely love to see many more American held companies join in on the message sending to those bloody commies. The chinese are making a big mistake when messing with the U.S. on this magnitude. It's a shame US airlines aren't suspending service to China. Let's cut off the American market to the chinese and see what happens. I'd venture to say we'd have our men and our plane back in no time.
Don’t waste your time telling me that my post has offended any of you - because frankly I don’t care. I am an outraged American who is becoming more pissed at the damn Chinese with every passing minute.
A message to the Chinese government: give us our men and plane back or prepared to be screwed!

 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:32 pm

Boycott, or sanctions by governments, do work to certain extent. An extremem example is South Africa for its apartheid policy. Sanctions over the years have left the economy in tatters and in no good shape to feed all those hungry mouths in South Africa. But there have been more cases where sanctions or boycotts have failed to make a difference- read: IRAQ. A decade has passed with one of the extreme cases of economic sanctions the world has ever seen, yet his iron-fist rule is as strong as ever. And Iraq wasn't even a major powerhouse China is.
China is a power to be reckoned with in the Asia-Pacific region whether US likes it or not. They can choose to go along with China and try to capture the unlimited potential Chinese market presents for US firms (like rest of the world), or isolate itself and make themselves look like an @ss with boycotts no other nations will follow suit. In fact, other governments will only be happy to fill the void left by American departure.

I just think it's silly for a corporation to publicly declare PRC as an enemy when it's over a captured spy plane. Crewmen/women, by all reports, have been treated fairly with 'unfeathered' access granted by the Chinese officials the other day. Folks, they aren't being tortoured- PRC is trying to save its @ss from looking like incompetent idiots from the public. I would do the same if my fighter jet went down by a prop plane with no weaponry that flies 1/10 of the fighter's speed.
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:34 pm

To anyone who read my previous post:

I did not mean I am angry at the Chinese as a people...
this situation is beyond their control.

I am pissed at the chinese government, not the people of China.
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:34 pm

I'm not sure on who hit who but China has no right to hold our men and women because the didn't get an apoligy. The US has express deep regret for the pilot who died and and to his widow who is going through this terrible time for the loss of her husband and the life that they could have had together but now that is gone in a blink of an eye. I've been down that path as a good number of you know. But China is violating international law by not returning our poeple. So they do deserved to be punished if they do not agree to the negociations that the diplomates from both countries and the US gov is trying to work with the Chinesee Government. There are 24 families in the US who are going through hell right now on the fate of their sisters, , brothers, sons,daughters, fathers, and mothers.

All I have to say to China is that you had better take good care of them; because if your spy plane got into the same senario and had landed on our soil. We would take good care of them and try to make them comfortable and return you as quickly as possible in great health. I hope that China will not violate international law any further along with the Geeneva Convention.

To the widow of the dedicated pilot who died; If it was infact the US plane that was at fault. Then the US will apoligize personally. I can only imagine a fraction of what you're going through. I hope and pray that with time, supports from family, friends and therapists will you find some sort of closure in this whole ordeal.

But again as far as China holding our people for an unreasonable amount of time is quite ridiculous and illegal as well. And if China continues to put on this tirade then yes I do believe a boycott is in order. But hopefully diplomacy will be the solution to this problem.
"FUIMUS"
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4688
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:40 pm

I think we need to cut down the rhetoric here. Are we now going to question the legitamacy of the PRC government and pretend it doesn't exist?

We suspect that it was the Chinese pilot who crashed into the Aries II, but we don't know yet for certain. If anyone on this board says they know for sure who is "at fault", then they are full of sh*t.
Both sides are putting out a feeler on this issue. China is finding out the resolve of the new president - who so far has shown weakness and reluctance. The US is trying to find out how far China will go and what threats they will bow down to - economic or military.

Unfortunatley in this game of chicken, we have 24 innocent people trapped up in the middle. I think it has pretty much been established that the Chinese will grant the release, but only with a full apology...further damaging US pride. I don't think there is another way though.

However, many Chinese expats (including my bf and his family) couldn't be happier if trade was cut off with the PRC.

 
Spaceman
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 3:28 pm

RE: Women

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:45 pm

Well many Chinese people share their government's point of view. What is the difference between a people and their government? Afterall government is made of Chinese people, do you know "People's Republic of China? As a Chinese I feel inflame by your statement.
 
CPDC10-30
Posts: 4688
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 4:30 pm

RE: Women

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:50 pm

What is the difference between a people and their government

The difference is that not everyone agrees with their governement, and they are not free to express this in the PRC.
Generally most Chinese that I have met abhor the PRC government. I don't know if they only express the opinion while outside of the country, but it seems to be an overwhelming majority.
 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:51 pm

Spaceman,
This may rub it the wrong way, but people of China did NOT elect the current regime. And evidently, many Chinese people do not share the government's view, as witnessed during the Tiannamen(sp?) massacre.
 
MAC_Veteran
Posts: 702
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 1999 3:03 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:56 pm

WateWate

Are we that deluded into thinking the impeding of "freedom of movement" by this crew is something we can just "live with" and ignore as a lesser of two fears, the primary fear being the loss of of stock market profits by some companies invested in China and that we will lose valuable profits from the 1.* billion population of China?

Is that how debased we are now as a society?

Where the quest for profits now is a means where we can delude and apologize away ourselves and our idealism from avoidance of confronting outrageous acts? Is that the shill society we have become?

The PRC is banking on this selfish approach as the main ingredient to undermine our resolve.

If we have no resolve, then what are we any more?

I suppose that makes our entire past history as an irrelevant set of events because in many of them they didnt have a profit motive. Granted there were many motives for such in many conflicts we have fought, but if it were to come to a clash with the PRC, the choice of whether we stand on principle or for profits and deciding which is better is truly a sad day, it's indicative of the lack of idealism and cynical apathy people have now come to embrace. People have become in large parts truly rudderless and owned by their wallet.

When the world faces another totaltiarian state threatening or conducting itself in a horrendous manner, say if there is another Hitler that threatens Europe, would it be better for the US to just ignore him and let him do whatever he wants? Maybe the ultimate lesson in this folly is to turn a blind eye to it all and say "it's their problem, not ours, there's no profit motive in it for us, we arent invested there".

Maybe it's time that society does face a question like this in short time, for if it is as pervasive a view as it appears to be, then maybe the world deserves to -lose- it's freedom and the ambulance chasing we have done trying to secure some sense of stability to it thanks to it's apathetic and selfish attitudes that are now en-vogue. Scarily, this same attitude and apathy was quite common pre-World War 2 and Santayana may again be proven right.

When you lose your idealism, you lose the soul of -who you are-.

MAC
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:59 pm

Go MESA !!!! ... I hope a pattern emerges here. All the more reason why I someday hope to live in the valley of the sun, well I rather live in Tucson. LOL

~Lindbergh Line
 
tsully
Posts: 680
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 5:02 pm

HKGspotter1

Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:23 pm

I feel sorry for you. You just don't comprehend humanity. But I suppose if I lived under such a horrible government I may not have an understanding for humanity, either. And thanks HKGspotter1, I take being called a "yank" a compliment! There is nowhere else on the face of this earth I would rather call home.

China is clearly not winning the international popularity contest, (but then again, have they ever?) They are playing with dangerous toys... toys that will have stringent repercussions if not dealt with swiftly and professionally.

It's long past time we bring our boys (and girls) and plane home.

I fully support any suspension of Chinese market activities.

One last note, in civilized America (and throughout the western world) we would merely send someone without proper travel documents (i.e. visa) right back to where they came from. There would be no pussy footing around. We would not hold them prisoner; we would just divest them from our country. Perhaps civilization has not reached the Chinese government yet.
Any argument based on the fact that our soldiers didn't have Chinese visas is asinine.
A scenario: if an Aeroflot plane full of Russians was in transit between Moscow and Canada and was forced to land on the U.S. east coast due to mechanical failure, would we arrest the distraught Russians and blame them for not having U.S. visas? Of course not! But then again, we are civilized here in America.

Those 24 Americans had no intention of landing in china, so why would they have Chinese visas?

The greedy Chinese are just too proud to admit the accident was their fault and move on. Instead, they want the U.S. to take the blame and try to get financial compensation. Fat chance!

The worst implication (for them) of the Chinese government’s unjustified behavior is being visibly displayed in this very forum. The vast majority of Americans (and other nationalities to some extent) are ready to burn anything Chinese. The Chinese leaders in Beijing are either incredibly stupid or incredibly intelligent, because they are making the worst possible P.R. move for their country. They must think they are accomplishing something of significant value by detaining our men and plane. They have a tremendous amount at stake.
I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:32 pm

I respect your view MAC- well put.

But realistically speaking, there's nothing US, or any government for that matter, can do right now. It would be ludicrous to impose any sanctions against China over a spy plane incident.

But you're justified in your concerns over China's ever growing aggression (and oppressive stance-to its neighbour Taiwan, might I add) in the international scene. But you have to give credit where it's due- PRC has shown quite a restraint over the years in the 90s (i.e. tolerance of Hong Kong and Macau). Situations like these would have never been possible even in the 80s. This is a departure from its "my way or highway" approach they are famous for. Maybe PRC is doing it for international support and are doing a dang good job of covering abuse in the mainland China of oppression, but it has certainly fooled and appeased many governments around the world- enough to get these governments get itching to invest in PRC.

IMHO, the best way to give power to PRC people is by way of creating personal wealth for them. With wealth comes knowledge, education and so on. Sanctions always end up benefitting the few elites.

Not that PRC should not be immune to international criticisms in the future, but their handling of this incident and the crew have been in accordance with relevant international law thus far. As much as I would like see China pay the dues on other incidents (Tibet, Tiannament), it just won't happen.

PRC is just playing the international game- they know how important this incident is due to the upcoming WTO and Olympic decisions.

If China ever decides to annexe Taiwan or have aim guns at their own people again, you can expect to see some international sanctions. But until then, there's not much anyone can do.
 
Guest

RE: Women

Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:35 pm

Spaceman wrote: "What is the difference between a people and their government"?

The difference between a people and their government is the fact that the people's opinions, ideas and desires are not always clearly represented by the actions of their government. I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that most Chinese do not approve of what their fanatical government is doing in this matter.

Spaceman wrote: "As a Chinese I feel inflame by your statement".

And I am mutually inflamed by your government's actions.
Look Spaceman, I tried to be polite by clarifying my position against your government, but you are just being difficult now. I'm sorry if you take offense at my criticism of your government, but keep in mind I am not criticizing your people.
 
DG_pilot
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 10:21 am

Mesa Air: Principles In Front Of Cash

Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:51 pm

Horay for Mesa!!!! It is about time a company put their principles first. I am glad they are setting the example. I will support them any day.

Brissie Lions (aka Aviatsiya) said:

""And for Mesa to do this is so hypocritical.

Are they also going to boycott Colorado and Georgia because of those state's draconian laws dealing with gay people?

C'mon Mesa...come to the party and show us all that your company is not hypocritical and "has SOME balls".""
----------
Hypocritical? Just because they don't believe in what you believe does not make them hypocritical. The laws might be "draconian" in your opinion, but they might be "too liberal" in someone else's opinion.

How does the release of our service people in China directly relate to Colorado and Georgia's laws dealing with gays? It makes no sense. There is no sensible reason why Mesa Air would be hypocritical in this situation.

 
DG_pilot
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 10:21 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 2:06 pm

Another thing, don't only be concerned for what the Chinese government has in store for its own people, be even more concerned in what they want to do the United States as a whole. They are not thinking small here.
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:09 pm

This should most likely be moved to a non-aviation forum. But before that happens I thought that I would post something from Tom Friedman in the Op-ed in the NYTimes. I couldn't of said it better.

So Hong Kong Spotter if this what you want, I for one are willing to give it to you. We'll take the 24 Americans back as well as our $40 billion dollars in trade with China annually. We could also influence the world to vote against the Olympics, and send all the Chinese students home for US universities.


April 6, 2001 , New York Times

FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Sorry About That

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

I would never do this myself, but if one wanted to be nasty, one could write a column with the following lead:

"China says it wants an apology for the collision of the U.S. surveillance plane with a Chinese fighter jet, which resulted in the death of a Chinese pilot. Well, I say the Chinese are right. We should apologize. But why stop with the plane incident? We should apologize for being the market for $40 billion a year of China's exports. We should apologize for the fact that U.S. companies are among the largest foreign investors in China and have been instrumental in China's economic takeoff. We should apologize for the fact that 54,000 Chinese students study in the U.S. every year, more than any other nationality. We should apologize for the fact that the U.S. has shown restraint in weapons sales to Taiwan. We should apologize for the fact that the U.S. paved the way for China's entry into the World Trade Organization. Yes, we should apologize for all these things and promise to stop all of them immediately."

That would be the nasty approach. If I were trying to be a friend of China's, I would point out that China is behaving as if America were the only country with something to lose if this dogfight is not quickly resolved. China has said that either the U.S. accepts that the incident was all America's fault and apologizes, or the relationship will suffer and America will suffer. That's only half true.

Yes, U.S. interests would suffer from a prolonged crisis with China. But China would suffer just as much. Let's start with the basics: The Chinese Communist Party has struck the following bargain with the Chinese people: You let us continue to rule, even though Communist ideology is no longer functional, and we will guarantee rising living standards. For the Communist leadership to fulfill its side of this bargain it needs a steady inflow of investment and technology from the U.S., and, even more important, it needs access to the U.S. market for China's exports. If China is seen as holding U.S. airmen hostage, the U.S. Congress will move to block everything from China's entry into the W.T.O. to its trade privileges in the U.S. to its possible hosting of the 2008 Olympics.

Moreover, it would be one thing for China to call for an immediate U.N. investigation, or a joint U.S.-Chinese investigation, into this collision — which occurred in international airspace — and if the U.S. is found responsible to demand compensation. No problem. But for China to insist that the U.S. apologize before it has debriefed its own pilots, analyzed the flight recorders or spoken to Chinese military officials, is another way of saying that the rule of law does not matter. All that matters is how China feels. Such brutish behavior, if sustained, will quietly prompt China's neighbors — Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam — to draw militarily even closer to the U.S., and that would be a big strategic loss for China.

Finally, it took America 10 years to rebuild a bipartisan consensus on China after the Tiananmen Square killings, and it could all be exploded by this incident. Since Tiananmen and the end of the cold war, there have been three American camps on China: those who wanted to contain a rising China, as we did Russia; those who believed we could tame China with economic engagement; and those — who eventually became the bipartisan majority — who believed U.S. policy toward China should be to build bridges where possible and draw red lines when necessary. If this current affair is not resolved soon, the U.S. consensus on China will explode and the advocates of containment will triumph.

The press is now yammering that this crisis is a test for America's new leader. That's true. But it's just as big a test for China's old leaders — of whether they really understand the new world they're living in.

Guess what? America is not the only country enmeshed in today's global economy and globalization web. So is China. Secretary of State Colin Powell expressed "regret" about the loss of the Chinese pilot precisely to help those in China who don't want this affair to blow up relations with America. But China too has to behave in a way that enables its U.S. friends to sustain the relationship. China too has an enormous amount at stake in ending this crisis legally, quickly and quietly. Indeed, if one wanted to be nasty, one would say that China has a lot more at stake than the U.S. does.

 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:12 pm

DG_Pilot.

This is where you are so very, very far off the mark.

I quote from the initial article

"We can not on the one hand continue ''business as usual`` while at the same time the People's Republic of China ignores international law and refuses to release 24 American service personnel."

You know what?

Your own country, America, has signed off on various international statutes guaranteeing the rights of gay people everywhere.

The Colorado and Georgia state governments have chosen to snub this INTERNATIONAL treaty.....so therefore, Mesa should show those two states the same biase that they are currently showing to China.

But, hey, I bet Colorado and Georgia make up quite a bit of Mesa's revenue and outgoing business, and are not willing to risk it.

Also, to those who have quoted apartheid. The sanctions against South Africa were ones which I fully supported. Don't think that it was the sanctions that made South Africa buckle....it was because the regime in Pretoria had their whole attitude changed. Change is not going to come about because of sanctions....change is going to come about when those people in power are ready to change....not a moment sooner.

And for those people who have said that if China was to "invade" Taiwan, international sanctions would be imposed. By which country's? The United Nations? (Doubt it...remember China has the same power of veto which America has used on many occasions). Remember, ALL of the major countries on this planet recognise one China and one China only.....and that China is the one with it's capital in Beijing.
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3124
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 5:19 pm

While i dont really support the American pt of view on the matter, i do feel that there is nothing wrong with what MESA has done. Private Enterprise mustnt lose its social conciousness. The MESA mgmt have some views and they chose to put their feelings into action in their own little way.

How many "made-in-china' products does MESA use anyway. It is a symbolic act to express their views.

Or mebbe they did it to win over peoples hearts by playing the patriotic card.
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:32 pm

Well, great to read a post which has not (as yet) descended into irrational anti-Chinese-everything rhetoric.

And it's pleasing to see some people regonise the difference between Government opinion and the people's opinion. That was a concept that no one appeared to grasp in the previous thread we had!

Undoubtedly, the present regime will have it's supporters though, even if the majority are against (Miloseviv/Serbia).

I've heard the problem is:

China has had a history of being humiliated in the past, and it is not willing to be humiliated, by what it sees as a very arrogant and overbearing US Government.

That is partly the reason they keep demanding an apology from the US.

-Given the fact that most of the press I trust (The Independent Newspaper UK, BBC and The Economist) seem to be pretty certain that the collision occured in INTERNATIONAL waters, and that it is highly inlikely the US a/c collided with the Chinese interceptor (rather vice-versa), I don't think an official apology is warranted. Expressions of sympathy yes.

However, if what I read is in fact true, China really ought to be giving out an official apology.

As for the MESA business, I think it's a bit of a waste of time really-in this specific circumstance, I highly doubt they're going to change anything-and if this hurts anyone, it will probably be themselves!

Who are they harming anyway???? The people or the Government?

Sorry, I think that is very petty action. As others have said, better they concentrate on what they're best at....and it isn't politics!
 
rajno1
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2001 10:17 pm

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:59 pm

Careful HKspotter, you will inflame the Americans so much that they are going to start boring us with their 'Second Amendment' crap, or '101 reasons why I love the US'
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:15 pm

Just because the UK finally just passed your Bill of Rights doesn't mean that we American's are going to get our noses bent out of shape over some small Chinese problem.
 
Kangar
Posts: 362
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: About Time

Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:08 pm

Folks,
I've seen a lot of Commie this, commie that, but I have one question. What system, other than an authoritarian one works when administering and controlling 1.2 billion people? It can't be democracy, because the one family one child policy clshes directly with that. If China went democratic, we'd have a famine on a scale never witnessed before. That said, I'm suspicious of their military intentions. However, common belief has it that PRC had intended to hand back the crew until Bush demanded their release, and then felt that to do so would be a climbdown. If you ask me, this is their little thank you for bombing that embassy.....
 
Braniff727
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 2:25 am

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:38 pm

Well I certainly hope that I am never flying anywhere near China unless I have a Chinese Visa. God forbid we need to make a landing in China! I might be held prisoner because I didn't get a visa for a landingthat I didn't know would happen.

I imagine I would be put to death there, being gay AND without a visa! Personally I'm not concerned about where the prisoners are from. I'm concerned about their HUMAN RIGHTS.

Let's see everyone return home safely without a single drop of blood shed.
Climbing
 
Guest

RE: Mesa To Boycott China Goods -- Give Me A Break!

Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:11 pm

Kangar,

Last time I checked there already was a country that is a democracy and has over 1 billion people. It is called India.

Are you telling me that Chinese people forego democracy so that they can control their population?

The definition of famine means that their are political factors effecting food supply, not a lack of food. There is plenty of food on earth, the problem is how to get it to the people who need it. That's politics not agriculture.

Lastly, there is evidence that as you educate your populous, and specifically women, the average birthrate goes down. Giving people an education and a job is going to go further to reduce the birth rates and not through oppressive population controls.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos