Just a sidebar, but China is not exactly in the dark ages with gay rights. The authorities mostly ignore gay clubs, bars and saunas...of which there are many espescially in Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou. There is nothing in Chinese law prohibiting homosexual acts.

Puke!

First off, "American" is everyone who lives in the "American Continent" (look at your aviation charts, there are othe things, due North and South!).

I feel that the crew should have been relaease by now, no doubt about it. The chinese may have the right to keep the plane, but not the crew.

Howcome evryone loves "boycotts"? Are you "Americans" willing to pay 5-10 more for stupid plastic things you are famous for buying just to make sure that they are not produced in PRC? I remember last year "americans" gettings their panties up in a bunch for high gasoline prices in the Midwest... Yes, it all for "principles" until it actually start afecting your pocket.

Things are more complicated than people think.

I know, I'm just trying to make a point. My whole arguement here is not for the plane, or egos or testosterone. It's for the 24 people who are being detained because of something that is and was completely out of their control.

What it boils down to, to me anyway, is that China is trying to show that they have big balls, and this whole thing is about who's genitals are bigger.

Let's see who's are, but how about feeding, educating and creating prosperity rather than detaining people and bickering!

Please!!!!!

1. US did not cause the accident in the 1st place.
2. When a ship/plane declares a mayday it has the right to land or dock at closest port/airport when needed. This does not consititure violation of territorial air space.
3. The plane and crew are still part of US territory. China is not abiding the international standard of conduct.

This is the proper way to go to punish a barbaric state.

The public company has right to do what it wished. This is simply Mesa expressing its displeasure.

BTW, talking about lack of political separation from business, look at china and see how tightly these two are linked.

So what is the barbaric chino men doing in illegally detention and violating US territory.

more US corporation should do the same and ruin chino men's economy and sent them back to stone age.

nothing more can be said

To make matters worse, there have been reports that Chinese are removing equipments from the plane. Not comfirmed, but if true, US won't stand and see their sensitive equipment fall in the hands of wrongs nation.

Oxygen, you are from China. I don't expect you to understand anything relating to this incident.
Face it, your country is making a big mistake.

I beg to differ with you, 'ol chap. We in America don't view our Bill of Rights as "crap". At least we Americans don't pay out of pocket to support the lifestyle of a band of crazed monarchs who serve only as figureheads.
Perhaps only certain foreigners who don't clearly understand America's system of government and sacred documents view the Bill of Rights as "crap".
I'll say one thing, if China had a Bill of Rights, they'd be much better off.
And I see no need to list 101 reasons America is great (or whatever you mentioned). It is quite obvious to the world that America is a great country.

WateWate

My biggest fear is the profits from this massive business interest so enmeshed inside the PRC is now starting to provide the resources (taxes and levies by buisnesses who are invested there, from products made there, etc) into a monstrous military genie that will never be able to be contained. The actions of the PRC government in recent weeks is indicative also that their -military- are the ones with the real power and calling the shots with matters. I detect a change of tone from before, much more marked. Before at least their civilian leadership played a more promient role discussing -something- when a crisis posed it's head. Now, we seem to get are Foreign Ministry statements now and then, but a boatlad of statements coming from PLA sources rattling their sabers. This part I find truly alarming. As if soe sort of quiet coup has happened inside the PRC's government that we may not be aware of. The miitary seems again to be the ones fully in charge, not Jiang Zemin. I dont know if people are catching 0on to this view or feeling yet. If it is true, and this "script" is their new "boilerplate" for handling this and future crises, then we will have a truly real replay of the ColdWar all over again. Then we wilkl have to get into the posturing of 'containment', a much larger military deterrence presence in the area, I could see us quite possibly re-opening facilities in the Philippines and/or expanding bases on Mainland Japan, Okinawa, South Korea, Thailand and Guam.

It has the ingredients for quite a mess.

I see the potential for a pincer movement of some manner in how the PRC may 'play' the 'North Korea card' in all of this as well, they are their most influential ally and given the "sunshine" effort by South Korean President Kim Dae Jung to get closer to Kim Jong Il, I see something a bit too quiet (or is it the uncanny amount of it causing a sense of disquiet?) with the DPRK.

The ultimate nightmare scenario is the DPRK and the PRC work together to create some sort of sudden crisis there with an attack on South Korea catching everyone off guard and by complete surprise, this lulling of both sides seems to camouflage something else going on. Then with that operation underway, a quick all out effort by the PRC to attempt something with Taiwan.

The massive buildup of PRC military forces suggests this is precisely what they would like to have the capability of doing.

The PRC currently is lacking in amphibious assault ships to help facilitate that, but this too will change in their buildup. They also have a very potent missile attack force being established in Fujian provence across from Taiwan. At least two major facilities are already online, with a third soon to be completed.

If they really wanted to force it sooner, they could follow the April 9, 1940 battle model by which Nazi Germany invaded Norway. In that situation, the Germans cleverly used merchant ships disguised as Norwegian ones, filled to the brim with lightly mechanized SS and Army invasion troops (small, easy to carry and fast on the ground to cover more territory). They snuck in close enough to important bases the Norwegians had, and then had the German Navy and Luftwaffe move in and complete the job. the Germans lost a few heavier surface ships (a heavy cruiser and a light cruiser I think) in this invasion, but overall it was incredibly quick and caught people off guard there. The PRC has a vast merchant and fishing fleet they could use in a smilar manner. Several times in recent years, Taiwanese coast guard ships and ROC Navy vessels have chased away large formations of PRC flagged fishing trawlers and factory ships getting a little too close to Taiwan's shores, so I would bet the PLA has at least conceptually thought of this concept and saw the reaction it could bring and comparing the logistics and time needed to put it together.

If it were to happen, we'd be strapped two different ways from our major bases in the area and would be hard pressed in some regards.

The flashpoint in this is, if there are nonconventional weapons that may be a part of either plan in this, Or not. This forces the hand of which country capitulates first and/or which one gets hit first with them. Then factor in Japan, whom most certainly wont sit by and allow this to happen and destabilize their country either. This modernization of the PRC military has got to have some in the JASDF thinking about rewriting their national constitution so they can counter the threat they may indeed face as well.

..Just thinking out loud some of the strategic schemes of things that could be at play.

The PRC's government is -extremely smart and shrewd- in knowing how they build the course of getting what they want, they have very shrewdly discovered how to play the West for the economic machinery and facilitation of technology to be in hand to achieve their strategic ends. Economic means building military means.

What I am afraid of though are many cant grasp these ingredients and how they are actively combining the two together to build a war machine. I've been through one war and that one was one far too many. I know what they look like and how they start, I saw the beginning rumblings of Saddam's intentions in Kuwait as far back as April 1990 when he was conducting missile tests with kit-bashed Scud-B's and no one then was paying attention. The time between then and August 1st, 1990 was a constant string of political invective reported in the English daily "The Turkish Daily News". The bellicose language streaming out of Baghdad was thick, but no one was paying attention to it, it seemed. The next day came and we all found out the hard way how foolish we were.

Regards
MAC

MAC,
It's interesting that you bring up US military presence in the Asia-Pacific region. US is in no position to expand its military force in the region- especially in S. Korea and Japan. I was fortunate to live only a block away from US Airforce base in Osan in S. Korea a while back, and I must say, there's almost zero % chance of US expansion due to strong public stance especially in light of Sunshine policy President Kim is pursuing.
You're right in that PRC is rapidly building its military forces. I only found out today that PRC boarded a US patrol/spy boat off the Korean coast. That didn't receive the press coverage like the plane incident because no hostages were taken. PRC is undoubtably playing a dangerous game with weapons with the development of new fighter jet and build up of its forces around Taiwan.
But as I said earlier, there's nothing China has done to warrant an all-out sanctions by US or any other government for that matter. PRC is clearly testing how far it can push other nations to getting its way, and I don't think we'll see much done against them unless they invade Taiwan.

very nice comment Tsully, I fully agree, HKGspotter1: relax and spot some planes, I guess that's what you can do best. My prayers go to the crew, I hope they are home very soon

WateWate

Here's an interesting link to a NewsMax story on this crisis:

http://www.newsmax.com/commentarchive.shtml?a=2001/4/6/182126

BTW, I was stationed at Osan back in 1991-92. It's a very hemmed in base geographically. The mission by the 51st TFW is shared with that of the unit down at Kunsan Air Base further south. I remember when Taegu was online with F-4E's and/or A-10s, along with Suwon Air Base just south of Seoul. We only have two truly 'operational bases' (with their own fixed fighter wing in place) in South Korea now. Nothing like the nightlife in Song Tan-si though. (G) Ahh, the UN Club or "The Golden Gate", "My House Up"..(LOL!) I liked Seoul a lot better for some reason, the further away from the bases, the better. One must do Inchon's seafood restaurants when possible or trip up to Pochon-gun north of Seoul (and quite close to the DMZ) to get some of the breathtaking scenery (or a gallon or two of Pochon Mokkoli rice-wine..it's smooth as velvet I might add, get a plate of kalbi BBQ going and a couple swigs of that and your'e set (G). I used to live in an apartment atop a supermarket behind the Yeong Chon Hotel in Song Tan, that hotel had a public shower and sauna area for folks. It was awesome for folks living on the economy, many apartments didnt have shower facilities and the Yeong Chon was a lifesaver. (G) I had two encounters with an "old fashioned Korean shower" consisting of a warm bucket or two of water standing outside in a communal water catchment area where everyone either bathed or washed their clothes in 35 degree air and will never do that again. (G)

Regards
MAC

MAC,
You must be joking! I was living in Song-Tan in 92, too! What a small world. I was living across the street from apartment complex designed for military personnel. My memories are sketchy at best, but my complex was just across the street from armed forces'. And I know the 'night' spot you're talking about- as well as the communal bath.  
I loved it when you guys opened up your base once a year or so for a 'carnival'. Nothing beats those genuine Pringles bought on US base.  

Geez...we've really strayed from the original idea...the propriety of a US airline making a political statement. But, then, why not; it is always interesting to see what others think and learn more about their backgrounds and interests.

This whole incident is just another of those occasional convergences, when routine international intelligence collections (aka, spying) makes the news headlines. I do agree with many of the statements about a growing PRC military power, but I also believe this incident is mostly just a simple power test wherein PRC is testing out Bush. My gut feeling: the rules are slowly evolving, and power shifts in powerful countries will not necessarily be announced; in fact, those in power may become more inclined to just lead from behind screens, as perhaps the PRC military is doing today.

No questioning the strength and greatness of the USA, but, I am not sure that our Bill of Rights would make China "better off". Given China's history and population, it is quite possible that our style of individual rights would be incredibly destructive. My vague recollections of some Chinese history make me suspect that too much freedom could, indeed, be a dangerous thing in China. Spend a few minutes researching the latest news articles about US/China relations, Chinese history, etc. and all of us can be enlightened.

Bottom line is, as Women_fly_too stated, China is simply making a big mistake trying to use US citizens as poker chips. And, the US made a small mistake for which they must reasonably suffer the loss of a P3 and whatever intelligence secrets the Chinese can glean from it.

Kangar:A large population doesnt need an authoritarian state to "control" it.

My country has just crossed the billion mark, and i dont think we r a dictatorship!

Women_fly_too:Why do u seem to believe that anyone who doesnt speak what u want to hear doesnt understand the situation? i think oxygen understands the situation well. but there r some people who think that only "first-world" fellows r entitled to opinions. terriotriali integrity etc.

First of all,
If India is supposed to indicate the superiority of democracy over communism for administering over enormous amounts of people, then you've kind of shot yourself in the foot, things ain't no bed of roses for large numbers of the population there either. And, education for women in China about birth control would take effect about 15 years down the road, too late to prevent a population explosion by a long shot. Famines currently occur for political reasons, that doesn't dictate what will cause them in the future. And no, the world does not have enough food to sustain population growth, why do you think GM crops are being developed at such a frantic pace? Off the whole aviation topic I know......but what the hell..........
Regards
Kangar

Kangar,

Not sure I get your point. How have I shot myself in the foot? India has a billion people and they manage to hold fair elections resulting in popular representation in the government without say military of monarchical influence (that cannot be said about Pakistan). Last time I checked, democracy does not equate to jobs and BMW's for everyone. Democracy is about representation of the people with a peacful transfer of power (of course I am oversimplifying) not a more developed status. Russia, Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore are all examples of countries that foregoed democracy and decided state lead business and industrial objectives outweighed representation in government. Of course that has changed but only after 30 years. I would argue that the same thing is happening in China. I would think within 20 years, there will be a transition to democracy.

You are assuming that China is not educating women today, which by in large is not true. Women hold very high positions in China. Literacy is high in the urban areas (which is where the real problem is). Worldwide the empowerment of women has had a direct effect on birth rates. Just look at your own country, Britain, the US, Eastern Europe, Japan etc. In fact in the West the situation is reveresed since people are having less children there will be a problem as less young taxpayers will be supporting an already overleveraged social services system.

Famine by definition is caused by political factors. You are arguing the GM food is being grown to increase productivity. That is true but it is also used to help combat agricultural disease, insect resistance etc.

Did you know that farmers in the US are paid NOT to grow crops so that the price for grains and rice will not plument thus causing farmers to lose their farms. Did you know that in ports and silos around the world food is rotting since their are no consumers or distribution channels to transport it.

We are producing more food with less farmland then in the history of the world. The world is so good a growing food that we have been a victim of our own success since we overproduce thus causing farmers to go out of buisness since prices are so low. GM food development is not designed to solve a world food crisis.

As for MESA airlines. Jonathan Ornstein (sp) is by all accounts an idoit. I unfortunately have had the pleasure to work with that snake and I can say by all accounts the man is a crook. I don't know what his objectives are with this China garbage except that he must be looking for some political clout from our Republican right wingers in Arizona.

Well, I'm glad the standoff is over today.

Had the U.S. apologized a week ago, as they should have, the airmen and women would have been home a long time ago. The U.S. has nothing but itself to blame for the delay.

I am sure this news has just got to burn Oxygen up. It sure took them long enough. No Boeing 757/767 the Chi-com government is the party at fault for the delay. They just couldn't seem to come to grips it was their pilots blatent disregard for keeping safe distances that caused the crash. Or perhaps you didn't notice that CNN article that qouted sources as saying the fighter had made two passes that came within a METER of the P-3 before the third, accident one. I don't know of any country that would let their aircraft fly within a meter of another aircraft. Save aerobatic performance teams of course.

I wish I had a copy of "God Bless the USA" to put on the net for those guys. The deserve it, Even if they where Navy 



I'm prod to be an american
where at least I know I am free
And I won't forget the men who died
Who gave that life to me

God Bess the USA!!!