As I was reading the KLM MCO thread, somebody mentioned a 787 flight from SFB to MIA. When I visited Arkefly's website to see if it was bookable, I found out that it was not, likely for the same reason as QF LAX-JFK. Anyway, this got me wondering- to circumvent these restrictions, is one way hidden city ticketing a good idea on Int'l flights? If one has only a carry on, and is in no FF programs with the airline (nothing to lose) and gets a fantastic deal on a flight (QF or Arke outbound from the US only), but only intends to fly the first leg, does this have any other ramifications? Immigration issues, etc? ie. On SFB-MIA-AMS or JFK-LAX-SYD, the second half is "thrown away." Has anyone tried this? All contributations appreciated, thank you.

If I get the US system right, the departing a/c leave from the domestic terminals as there is no passport control when leaving the country (quiete strange IMO with all the security hassle in the USA). You only go through passport control, when arriving to the country. So theoretically, if you fly the first leg (intra-USA/domestic) and then hop of the plane at the intermediate stop, you would be inside the domestic terminal, if you can go through the "same" jetbridge other passengers are boarding through.

The questions are: Will they allow you to leave the aircraft at all? If you you still insist on leaving the aircraft, will they call the cops? Could you get fined for this? But even if not, could this be a lot of hassle? Perhaps someone tried this before and can answer that question to you.


Regarding JFK-LAX-SYD, I know that a few years ago all the pax at LAX had to leave the aircraft, but were hold in a separate room, with no possibility to go landside or leave that area except through emergency exits which trigger an alarm. Also there was nothing in that room to do or no place to buy anything AFAIK. I don't know if it is still done in same way...

I wonder if they'd hold the plane while looking for the missing, illegally transported passenger.

What makes this different from domestic hidden city ticketing is that while on both Int'l and domestic flights you pay the full fare to the final destination (even if it is cheaper than only to the hidden city), on domestic, there is no immigration, so if for whatever reason you wanted to suddenly continue on to your final destination and skip the hidden city, you can do so without penalty. On Int'l flights however, you cannot do this, because while they may be no checks departing from the US, when you land at Int'l arrivals, you can will be totally screwed by immigration.

CARST wrote:

The questions are: Will they allow you to leave the aircraft at all? If you you still insist on leaving the aircraft, will they call the cops? Could you get fined for this?

Regarding JFK-LAX-SYD, I know that a few years ago all the pax at LAX had to leave the aircraft, but were hold in a separate room, with no possibility to go landside or leave that area except through emergency exits which trigger an alarm. Also there was nothing in that room to do or no place to buy anything AFAIK. I don't know if it is still done in same way...

Ideally, you would have your passport and visa approved for Australia just in case this turns out to be true. I mean, worst case scenario, you get a free trip to Sydney, if you can say that. But again, you will be slapped on the return when you have to pay the price (no pun intended) to fly back.

As KTPAFlyer notes, immigration issues are the first issue. But assuming this isnt an issue.....

My belief, at least in the USA, is it depends on whether you are able to get off the plane with passengers who are allowed to depart. Say you are flying on the SYD-LAX-JFK route. Maybe the ticket to NYC was way cheaper but you only want to go to LAX. If you get off the plane with the passengers at LAX and tell the agent you are having a panic attack, they are probably just going to confirm you have no checked baggage and let you walk away. They certainly are not going to force you back on the plane and escalating the issue is not worth it/carries legal risk. No customs issues either since are deplaning at a proper international arrivals point.

As for your SFB-MIA example, I dont see why you would ever book it but it represents the opposite situation where rather than deplaning some passengers you are only picking passengers up and likely they would not let the people flying from SFB off. In that case, to get off the plane you are going to have to create a scene or fake medical emergency. Not something I would ever want to do.

If I ever did this type of ticketing, I would only do it if I knew I could get off the plane at my destination. Once I am off the plane, the airline is pretty much powerless to get me back on. But I am never trying to force the airline to let me off the plane.

As a side note, I recently flew to Cancun through YUL (with a overnight layover in Montreal). The ticket from EWR to CUN was only 200 bucks but the ticket to just YUL would have been $350. I would certainly consider throw away ticking on future trips to YUL. Just book a long enough layover that you have a good excuse going through customs on the off chance they ask.

ec99 wrote:

As KTPAFlyer notes, immigration issues are the first issue. But assuming this isnt an issue.....

My belief, at least in the USA, is it depends on whether you are able to get off the plane with passengers who are allowed to depart. Say you are flying on the SYD-LAX-JFK route. Maybe the ticket to NYC was way cheaper but you only want to go to LAX. If you get off the plane with the passengers at LAX and tell the agent you are having a panic attack, they are probably just going to confirm you have no checked baggage and let you walk away. They certainly are not going to force you back on the plane and escalating the issue is not worth it/carries legal risk. No customs issues either since are deplaning at a proper international arrivals point. .

Not quite right. All international passengers are required to clear customs and immigration at their first point of entry in the US. Thus in you example of SYD-LAX-JFK, all passengers must deplane in LAX, clear immigration and then customs with their bags. The passenger then would recheck their bag and check in for the continuation of the flight.

The procedure is the same for foreign airlines as well as US carriers.

So what other flights have a "domestic leg" that continues an Int'l flight?

KTPAFlyer wrote:

So what other flights have a "domestic leg" that continues an Int'l flight?

I'm pretty sure those two are it. Airlines generally try to avoid them since they can't carry local traffic. If they have to make a stop they would prefer it to be a 5th freedom stop in another country if feasible.

It is possible to book QF JFK-LAX-Australia with a stopover of indefinite length at LAX, so you could fly JFK-LAX on QF, *stopover* for weeks or months if you wanted, then fly LAX-Australia as long as it is all on the same ticket. In this case I see no way they could stop you from throwing away the LAX-Australia flight.

KTPAFlyer wrote:

So what other flights have a "domestic leg" that continues an Int'l flight?

Cathay operate CX146 BNE-CNS-HKG and CX103 in reverse.

Just to correct some misconceptions above ..

The QF flight from JFK-LAX connector departs JFK from BA's International Terminal 8. Check-in requires a passport and an onward international ticket coupon ex LAX, both of which are checked scrupulously. In past years, there have been a couple of instances where QF has been fined for 'non-compliance' and they are assiduous in ensuring this doesn't happen again. Arriving with no checked luggage would raise some eyebrows as well, given that the flight is carrying passengers from one hemisphere to the opposite. Er, Mr X, it might be 105degF in NYC but it is only 52degF in MEL.

Since JFK-LAX (Tom Bradley) pax are invariably connecting to SYD/MEL/BNE or same plane service to BNE, there is generally a 90min layover in LAX. JFK pax do deplane in LAX, in order for the aircraft to be cleaned - but security is fairly tight. Even going outside the Terminal in LAX for a cigarette break requires you to re-clear TSA / Security and is generally a 'no-no'. QF and contract LAX staff monitor this quite tightly.

Classicjets is correct in that anyone can buy a QF JFK-LAX-[SYD/MEL/BNE] ticket and stop over legally in LAX. In any case, to throw-away the LAX-[Australia] sector, who would be crazy enough to do this paying 6-7 x the JB JFK-LAX price just to fly a B747-400? Hence, the pax monitoring at LAX. And by the way, don't even think about requesting a refund for an abandoned sector [LAX-Australia]. Not gonna happen. This is probably one of the few sectors in the USA where if you don't travel on the required sectors, you'll be prosecuted.

kimshep wrote:

Since JFK-LAX (Tom Bradley) pax are invariably connecting to SYD/MEL/BNE or same plane service to BNE, there is generally a 90min layover in LAX. JFK pax do deplane in LAX, in order for the aircraft to be cleaned - but security is fairly tight. Even going outside the Terminal in LAX for a cigarette break requires you to re-clear TSA / Security and is generally a 'no-no'. QF and contract LAX staff monitor this quite tightly.

That is interesting, so since the new TBIT, the pax leave the plane into the normal "departure" area of the TBIT and are free to roam the terminal and the shops? So it would be easy just to leave the terminal and go landside? So this flight can be flown domestically...

kimshep wrote:

Classicjets is correct in that anyone can buy a QF JFK-LAX-[SYD/MEL/BNE] ticket and stop over legally in LAX. In any case, to throw-away the LAX-[Australia] sector, who would be crazy enough to do this paying 6-7 x the JB JFK-LAX price just to fly a B747-400? Hence, the pax monitoring at LAX. And by the way, don't even think about requesting a refund for an abandoned sector [LAX-Australia]. Not gonna happen. This is probably one of the few sectors in the USA where if you don't travel on the required sectors, you'll be prosecuted.

I think the thread was never about the price. Most people won't pay 2000€ for a one-way ticket to Sydney and just fly JFK-LAX. It is more about the opportunity to do so. And if you are booking on very short notice, perhaps a roundtrip ticket JFK-LAX-SYD-LAX-JFK might be cheaper than the JFK-LAX ticket. So why not use QF on this route...

CARST wrote:

I think the thread was never about the price. Most people won't pay 2000€ for a one-way ticket to Sydney and just fly JFK-LAX. It is more about the opportunity to do so. And if you are booking on very short notice, perhaps a roundtrip ticket JFK-LAX-SYD-LAX-JFK might be cheaper than the JFK-LAX ticket. So why not use QF on this route...

If you are booking on very short notice you are probably flying round trip however. Buying a roundtrip ticket on QF to get from JFK to LAX will still require you to book a separate ticket on an American airline to get home.

kimshep wrote:

This is probably one of the few sectors in the USA where if you don't travel on the required sectors, you'll be prosecuted.

Really??? And what would you be prosecuted for? The only thing that might happen is you could have trouble trying to book on the same airline again. They might also fail to award FF miles, if applicable as it could be argued you breached the ticket conditions. Assuming you were forthcoming with CIQ in LAX, there is nothing you could be prosecuted for.

CARST wrote:

Regarding JFK-LAX-SYD, I know that a few years ago all the pax at LAX had to leave the aircraft, but were hold in a separate room, with no possibility to go landside or leave that area except through emergency exits which trigger an alarm. Also there was nothing in that room to do or no place to buy anything AFAIK. I don't know if it is still done in same way...

Not sure about QF, but NZ used to do this at LAX for AKL-LAX-LHR. Perhaps QF did it for SYD-LAX-LHR?

mmo wrote:

kimshep wrote:

This is probably one of the few sectors in the USA where if you don't travel on the required sectors, you'll be prosecuted.

Really??? And what would you be prosecuted for? The only thing that might happen is you could have trouble trying to book on the same airline again. They might also fail to award FF miles, if applicable as it could be argued you breached the ticket conditions. Assuming you were forthcoming with CIQ in LAX, there is nothing you could be prosecuted for.

From memory, the last time QF had such an occurrence (back around 2004-5?), they were fined approx. USD $150,000 if I recall correctly - and that was for a single passenger. You actually answer (above) your own question, since pure 'local / domestic travel' on a US domestic sector on QF is not a permitted option under the QF ticket conditions (a legal contract) and also US Government law regarding cabotage. It is a [legal] condition of travel on this domestic sector that your travel is in conjunction with an international exit of the USA.

Now, having purchased your international ticket, QF / AA (this is a codeshare flight BTW) will have your passport number, any Frequent Flyer details, your email address, credit card details and contact / home address (given that these are required in the booking for exchange of USA<->Australia Immigration procedures / requirements and the necessity of the carrier to advance notify). Not gonna be difficult to track you.

mmo wrote:

The only thing that might happen is you could have trouble trying to book on the same airline again. They might also fail to award FF miles, if applicable as it could be argued you breached the ticket conditions.

Nope. Booking - I'd suggest that should QF be fined for this, your ability to book under the same name / passport / credit card would be automatically declined.
Nope. FF Miles. Let me correct that sentence for you. "They WOULD fail to award .." for the reason suggested in the same sentence.

QF take US Government compliance issues very seriously. Not to be played with.

mmo wrote:

kimshep wrote:

This is probably one of the few sectors in the USA where if you don't travel on the required sectors, you'll be prosecuted.

Really??? And what would you be prosecuted for? The only thing that might happen is you could have trouble trying to book on the same airline again. They might also fail to award FF miles, if applicable as it could be argued you breached the ticket conditions. Assuming you were forthcoming with CIQ in LAX, there is nothing you could be prosecuted for.

I doubt the passenger would face any penalties but QF certainly could be fined for carrying illegal cabotage traffic. Several non-U.S. airlines have received heavy fines in the past for selling U.S. domestic traffic. Korean was one if memory correct as they were openly selling connecting traffic between the mainland U.S. and Guam via ICN. I believe either JAL or ANA may also have been fined at least once for doing the same via Japan.

CARST wrote:

That is interesting, so since the new TBIT, the pax leave the plane into the normal "departure" area of the TBIT and are free to roam the terminal and the shops?

Correct. You either transition to the arrival gate for a later onward departure on the same aircraft (LAX-BNE], move to an adjoining gate [LAX-SYD or LAX-MEL] departure, or head to the QF (or other) relevant Lounge or shopping area and then await your onward departing flight.
Pax who are staying in LAX are not 'penned' here, a la Air New Zealand as suggested above. However, they are herded / directed to Baggage Claim via a chain of non-QF CSA's (some uniformed, others not). I choose not to detail further the exact security methods and procedures employed on here, as it would be inappropriate.

CARST wrote:

So it would be easy just to leave the terminal and go landside?

In a word, no.

CARST wrote:

So this flight can be flown domestically...

... provided you comply with the Conditions of Carriage, don't violate US cabotage rules and have an onward international ticket sector for exit from LAX.

CARST wrote:

And if you are booking on very short notice, perhaps a roundtrip ticket JFK-LAX-SYD-LAX-JFK might be cheaper than the JFK-LAX ticket.

In all sincerity, I would hardly even conceive of this being true. Walk-up / same-day / short notice fares on QF are always at a .. gravy-train .. er, premium.
That JFK-SYD return USD $1250 Coach sale fare you booked 3 months ago to travel tomorrow is [i]guaranteed[/i] to cost you a minimum USD $2,600 as a walk-up for tomorrow, subject to availability.

Viscount724 wrote:

mmo wrote:

I doubt the passenger would face any penalties but QF certainly could be fined for carrying illegal cabotage traffic. Several non-U.S. airlines have received heavy fines in the past for selling U.S. domestic traffic. Korean was one if memory correct as they were openly selling connecting traffic between the mainland U.S. and Guam via ICN. I believe either JAL or ANA may also have been fined at least once for doing the same via Japan.

Hi Viscount724,

Not so sure about that. If I recall correctly, legal action was pursued by QF against the pax in the US but I don't recall the outcome distinctly. Comes with age, I guess?

Just to clarify. QF's fine was not the result of conscious 'direct selling' or seeking to overtly abuse USA domestic cabotage. Prior to the incident in question, what was then QF7/8 B747 originated in SYD and was a same-plane service through LAX to JFK and return. Due to a refit program, a schedule change occurred which meant that the 'through' same-plane service to JFK was assigned to BNE, which made the route BNE-LAX-JFK-LAX-BNE. Hence, SYD & MEL passengers to JFK were required to clear Customs and Immigration in LAX and board the (BNE originating) service to JFK which was not where the problem occurred. On the return sector ex JFK, passengers deplaned in LAX and either rejoined their onward flight to BNE, or transferred to other connecting services (SYD / MEL). Apparently, a couple of inadvertent res 'snafus' occurred with the transitioning and a few 'pax' were 'lost in terminal', which didn't accord with ARR/DEP records at LAX .. and QF was fined. The res system was changed to comply with regulations accordingly. With the introduction of the A380-800 service to LAX from SYD & MEL, Brisbane (BNE) retained the through service to JFK, as it is today.

kimshep wrote:

In a word, no.

Why not? From my experience I can leave any US terminal without being asked from where I came from. And from my experience the departure area at LAX TBIT is even connecting airside to the terminal AA is using for its domestic flights. So there are ways to go landside. Or do I remember this wrong?

kimshep wrote:

... provided you comply with the Conditions of Carriage, don't violate US cabotage rules and have an onward international ticket sector for exit from LAX.

1) Not complying with the CoC should be a minor offense. I don't think QF will ban me from flying with them. I could have not felt like flying or whatever lame excuse I could come up with.
2) For not violating US cabotage rules, this is only a problem for the airline, not for me. And I guess no one would fine them for my "fault" leaving the airport at LAX, same excuse as above could apply.
3) Why would I need an international ticket to exit at LAX? I am not arriving at LAX as an international passenger (and thus don't have to go through immigration). I would leave the airport without any controls like a domestic passenger.

kimshep wrote:

In all sincerity, I would hardly even conceive of this being true. Walk-up / same-day / short notice fares on QF are always at a .. gravy-train .. er, premium.
That JFK-SYD return USD $1250 Coach sale fare you booked 3 months ago to travel tomorrow is guaranteed to cost you a minimum USD $2,600 as a walk-up for tomorrow, subject to availability.

I know talking about fares is extremely subjective and really depends more on personal experience at a certain time than an objective study. But just last week I've seen roundtrips on QF for departure within 3 or 4 days between JFK and SYD for 610 EUR return in Y. Let's say this are 700 USD. At certain times getting a transcon flight for this price could be difficult. So if I have to fly this route oneway or can book the return cheap or on miles, why not pick the QF flight? Of course it's more a thing for a.nutters to fly a widebody on a domestic flight with a foreign airline yada yada and no normal person would do this. But for us nutters it should be an option...

CARST wrote:

3) Why would I need an international ticket to exit at LAX? I am not arriving at LAX as an international passenger (and thus don't have to go through immigration). I would leave the airport without any controls like a domestic passenger.

You would need to hold a ticket with onward travel from LAX on QF in order to purchase a ticket that includes the QF JFK-LAX sector. You couldn't have boarded a QF flight at JFK if you didn't hold a ticket on QF beyond LAX. Otherwise QF would be selling illegal cabotage transportation.

CARST wrote:

Why not? From my experience I can leave any US terminal without being asked from where I came from. And from my experience the departure area at LAX TBIT is even connecting airside to the terminal AA is using for its domestic flights. So there are ways to go landside. Or do I remember this wrong?

I really don't want to "re-hash" information that I've already posted above. I respect 'your experience' but it is not necessarily all-encompassing. Did you not see the above post from another member detailing Air New Zealand 'corralling' their in-coming passengers and keeping them in a single room - as an example?

CARST wrote:

1) Not complying with the CoC should be a minor offense. I don't think QF will ban me from flying with them. I could have not felt like flying or whatever lame excuse I could come up with.
2) For not violating US cabotage rules, this is only a problem for the airline, not for me. And I guess no one would fine them for my "fault" leaving the airport at LAX, same excuse as above could apply.
3) Why would I need an international ticket to exit at LAX? I am not arriving at LAX as an international passenger (and thus don't have to go through immigration). I would leave the airport without any controls like a domestic passenger.

1. Read my response in previous posts above and also that of "Viscount724". "Not complying with the CoC should be a minor offense." Your opinion. Not the law.

2. Read my response in previous posts above. If not sufficient, refer to "Viscount724's" post which details adequately carrier fines imposed on other airlines, so your assumption that "no one would fine them for my "fault" leaving the airport" is incorrect and factually wrong . As a passenger, whilst you may not see this as "problem", rest assured that airlines and the US Government do.

3. a) "Why would I need an international ticket to exit at LAX?". Because without one, you won't get to board the QF flight out of JFK to LAX in the first place.
b) "I am not arriving at LAX as an international passenger .." Patently wrong. You are travelling as an international passenger on an international flight that has a domestic stopover / sector leg included. For the rest of your question, I am not going to rehash previous posts.

kimshep wrote:

In all sincerity, I would hardly even conceive of this being true. Walk-up / same-day / short notice fares on QF are always at a .. gravy-train .. er, premium.
That JFK-SYD return USD $1250 Coach sale fare you booked 3 months ago to travel tomorrow is guaranteed to cost you a minimum USD $2,600 as a walk-up for tomorrow, subject to availability.

CARST wrote:

I know talking about fares is extremely subjective and really depends more on personal experience at a certain time than an objective study. But just last week I've seen roundtrips on QF for departure within 3 or 4 days between JFK and SYD for 610 EUR return in Y.

I don't know what sites you are looking at, since the QF website prices all 'ex USA' travel in USD, not Euros. The example I cited was for travel ex JFK-SYD return - taken from the QF US website - for travel the day after the post (ie. 1 day hence).

Let me ask this, let's take the QF JFK-LAX-Australia route, does the flight out of LAX have to be on QF metal to Australia, or could it be a QF ticket for a codes hare flight out of the US to say Mexico or Canada on AA ?

My understanding is that legally it could be on any airline's flight to anywhere outside the US, as long as it's on the same itinerary, but QF impose tougher restrictions in that it must be on a QF or AA flight to Australia or New Zealand on the same itinerary.

XAM2175 wrote:

My understanding is that legally it could be on any airline's flight to anywhere outside the US, as long as it's on the same itinerary, but QF impose tougher restrictions in that it must be on a QF or AA flight to Australia or New Zealand on the same itinerary.

+1

There was a thread several years ago where someone booked QF/CX JFK-LAX-HKG as part of a Oneworld RTW ticket. QF took him off their flight and rebooked him on a domestic AA flight for the JFK-LAX sector.

Okay, I figured QF wouldn't allow that (puts the pax out of their "control") but it was worth asking, thanks for the quick replies.

XAM2175 wrote:

My understanding is that legally it could be on any airline's flight to anywhere outside the US, as long as it's on the same itinerary, but QF impose tougher restrictions in that it must be on a QF or AA flight to Australia or New Zealand on the same itinerary.

That's not the way I read the bilateral. If QF permitted a passenger to travel JFK-LAX and connect to a 3rd carrier, for example, to Japan, they would not be complying with the bilateral. If QF, hypothetically, operated their own flight LAX-NRT-SYD with 5th freedom rights LAX-NRT, then they could sell JFK-LAX-NRT on QF on both sectors (or on a codeshare service using a QF flight number). That would be the equivalent of QF's former LAX-AKL-SYD service where they could sell JFK-LAX-AKL. Actually, when that service ended in 2012 they were using the same A330-200 JFK-LAX-AKL-SYD.

I wasn't aware it was covered in the bilateral at all actually, merely that US laws against cabotage are more generous in their definition of what constituted a "passenger undertaking an international journey" than QF is.

Also, LAX-NRT wouldn't be fifth-freedom for QF because no part of the route serves Australia - it would be seventh-freedom instead.

With the QF JFK flights if you have arrived in the US with QF you are permitted a stopover. For instance Last year I went MEL-LAX stayed for 4 nights and then caught the QF flight to JFK. On the way back I went JFK-LAX with QF before countinuing on to SEA with AS.

XAM2175 wrote:

I wasn't aware it was covered in the bilateral at all actually, merely that US laws against cabotage are more generous in their definition of what constituted a "passenger undertaking an international journey" than QF is.

Also, LAX-NRT wouldn't be fifth-freedom for QF because no part of the route serves Australia - it would be seventh-freedom instead.

Please read my reply that you're referring to. I used a hypothetical example of QF operating LAX-NRT-SYD where LAX-NRT would be 5th freedom.

Yes, I apologise, I did misread your reply.

Could you tell me more about how this is a bilateral issue rather than one merely governed by US law?
And also, does that mean that there are or were similar bilateral provisions for CX CNS-BNE and UA SYD-MEL?

XAM2175 wrote:

Yes, I apologise, I did misread your reply.

Could you tell me more about how this is a bilateral issue rather than one merely governed by US law?
And also, does that mean that there are or were similar bilateral provisions for CX CNS-BNE and UA SYD-MEL?

You can read the US-Australia bilateral here. That's how I understand it.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/168386.pdf

Not sure what you mean where you refer to UA SYD-MEL. UA never had local traffic rights on that sector as far as I know. They operated but without traffic rights. The current bilateral is very clear that a US carrier can't carry local traffic within Australia and vice versa and I doubt the much more restrictive former bilateral wouldn't have permitted it. Wouldn't make sense for Australia to grant US carriers cabotage rights within Australia when QF has no equivalent rights in the US, and QF operated HNL-SFO-JFK for about 20 years. They could permit stopovers on their own services but passengers had to be continuing on QF beyond the US. Did CX have cabotage rights CNS-BNE? That would be surprising.