OMAAbound
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Which major airline has the worst business class hard product?

Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:58 am

Which major airline has the worst business class hard product?

Defining 'worst' is certainly a personal choice, and certainly ones opinion is just that, and as the post states it's about the hard product only.

My personal choice that I've had the (not so) joys of sampling are
• Qantas
• Lufthansa
• Qatar (77W & A330)
• United

In 2016 it's a surprise when a major airline doesn't have direct aisle access in business class (Don't get me started on the LH A350!) and especially such high and well regarded airlines like I've quoted above.

Interested to hear everyone thoughts....

OMAA
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RL777
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Re: Which major airline has the worst business class hard product?

Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:56 am

Lufthansa, Emirates (777 fleet), the BA club world seat is getting up there but there's still quite a few people who don't mind it.
 
OMAAbound
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Re: Which major airline has the worst business class hard product?

Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:51 am

RL777 wrote:
Lufthansa, Emirates (777 fleet), the BA club world seat is getting up there but there's still quite a few people who don't mind it.


I forgot about Emirates- I avoid the 777 fleet like the plague it's that bad and I forgot about it.

Don't mind BA business personally, but haven't experienced it much

OMAA
Right hand seat of a 787. Also can be found eating sandwiches, drinking coffee and attempting to understand Chinese ATC!
 
infinit
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Re: Which major airline has the worst business class hard product?

Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:39 pm

Emirates.. 7 abreast in Business Class these days is a joke. Especially when their rival Singapore Airlines has been offering a true 1-2-1 configured Business Class product across their long haul fleet for over a decade
 
debonair
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Re: Which major airline has the worst business class hard product?

Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:14 pm

These are all real PREMIUM airlines with an OUTSTANDING BusinessClass - regarding to the airlines I flew last:

Uzbekistan Airways B757 (Long-Haul Business Class, sorry - but what is IFE?)
Philippines Airlines A330 (not even PTV in a brand new a/c - pls. can you hold the dig player on your lap?)
Azores Airlines A330 (seats broken/not possible to put the seat upright for take-off and landing, no IFE)
 
MiddleEastMike
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Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:12 pm

Hello all

A question I saw raised a few months ago elsewhere, was which major airline has the worst business class seat in the skies.

Emirates, Qatar, Qantas, South African, Lufthansa were all mentioned. Which is this day and age where direct aisle access and lie flat bed are a must, these carriers don't seem to offer these facilities.

So who is your opinion of worst business class seat in the sky?

For me, Emirates 777 is the worst, United back to front seats make me ill, Qantas seats also are uncomfortable and restrictive too!

What about you?
International Man of Mystery
 
jkrugman22
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:22 pm

Any carrier with business class seats that aren't fully flat bed or direct aisle access are subpar in my opinion #thestruggleisreal
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:25 pm

I don't think you can tag an airline this way. For example, the UA 747-400 Business Class seats don't all have direct aisle access, but their 787 seats do. LH is still flying aircraft with lay flat seats, but they aren't 180 degrees to the floor, but not all their aircraft are that way.
 
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UnitedIsBae
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:27 pm

glbltrvlr wrote:
I don't think you can tag an airline this way. For example, the UA 747-400 Business Class seats don't all have direct aisle access, but their 787 seats do. LH is still flying aircraft with lay flat seats, but they aren't 180 degrees to the floor, but not all their aircraft are that way.


Agreed. I think its aircraft+airline+staff=your rating
If it ain't Boeing I ain't going PERIOD
 
c933103
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:31 pm

How about those business classes that use economy seat with extra service?
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jumbojet
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:34 pm

jkrugman22 wrote:
Any carrier with business class seats that aren't fully flat bed or direct aisle access are subpar in my opinion #thestruggleisreal


so basically AA's 777's that still haven't been converted yet qualify. 2-3-2 angled in business. worst in class.
 
hinckley
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:36 pm

jkrugman22 wrote:
Any carrier with business class seats that aren't fully flat bed or direct aisle access are subpar in my opinion


I would agree with this sentiment. I've been flying international J-class fairly regularly for the past 20 years. In my earlier days, I would occasionally spring for a first class upgrade. But with fully flat beds and direct aisle access, it's now very hard to justify any price in $$ or FF miles for the upgrade. Sure, some J-classes are a bit cramped (DL comes to mind), but for us mere mortals, it's absolutely fine and an absolute luxury compared to the larger flying public sitting in economy.
 
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airzim
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:38 pm

glbltrvlr wrote:
I don't think you can tag an airline this way. For example, the UA 747-400 Business Class seats don't all have direct aisle access, but their 787 seats do. LH is still flying aircraft with lay flat seats, but they aren't 180 degrees to the floor, but not all their aircraft are that way.


United has no "direct aisle" aircraft flying except for 1 777-300ER which won't start until later this month.
 
PanzerPowner
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:39 pm

Philippine Airlines on their Airbus A340. But it is better than their economy amazingly.
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:51 pm

Air Koryo Business Class. yes I know it's not a "Major" but it's a flag carrier after all!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scjHAu1I8fQ
 
JAAlbert
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:54 pm

BA's coffin like cubicles seem so uncomfortable to me. I cant imagine why folks fly BA J claas given what the competition offers
 
irelayer
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:57 pm

PanzerPowner wrote:
Philippine Airlines on their Airbus A340. But it is better than their economy amazingly.


And a good percentage cheaper (at normal fares) than almost any other carrier flying to or from PI.

The funniest thing to me is that they've just renamed things. Basic Economy used to be Economy which used to be Premium Economy which used to be Business Class which used to be First Class. Everything was just taken down a notch. Now I do see the distinction in SOFT product more than anywhere else. First Class is now much more "Premium" with an emphasis on more privacy, better food, better alcohol (sometimes I'm amazed at what they serve in first class, in terms of wine and champagne vintages especially), more personal service, premium brand amenity kits, priority handling from your doorstep to destination, special services, better lounges, etc etc. It's almost like one step away from flying on a private jet.

To answer the thread question, I've only ever flown BusinessFirst (and multiple times) and let me tell you, from soft product to hard product, it's a pretty piss poor contemporary J class product. From what I've seen on trip reports on YouTube, it's pretty bottom end compared to the likes of LX, SQ, even Emirates. I'm sure when it came out it was awesome, and good on UA for recognizing they really needed to update it with Polaris. But that rollout is going to take quite a while. Long story short I wouldn't pay for J class on UA unless it was the new Polaris product.

-IR
Last edited by irelayer on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tysmith95
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:05 pm

#1%Problems
 
Ferminios
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:07 pm

It all depends on what you take into the calculation. If we however judge just by the hard product, you gotta put the KL older A330's up there. That's a Business class that I consider not worth paying for.
 
pasu129
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:24 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Air Koryo Business Class. yes I know it's not a "Major" but it's a flag carrier after all!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scjHAu1I8fQ


Love that the video is of another a.netter Mr. Sam Chui!
Viva Las Vegas
 
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ACCS300
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:26 pm

I'd assume we're talking long-haul only Business Class as the monikers can be confusing. The US uses the term "First Class" to describe domestic business class which I find VERY confusing and very 'dated'. In Europe much of the short-haul Business Class is simply Y with the middle seat either empty or made into a work table of sorts, with upgraded dining.

Hence for long-haul Business Class, BA is my absolute least favourite. They seemed to have gotten away with this claustrophobic, prison like, impossible aisle-access configuration for far too long, finally people are beginning to notice. Lufthansa didn't get it right either with their relatively new product, the footsie issue and the 'facing your neighbour' element is awful.
 
pasu129
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:26 pm

JAAlbert wrote:
BA's coffin like cubicles seem so uncomfortable to me. I cant imagine why folks fly BA J claas given what the competition offers


As tiny as it looks, it is quite private and comfortable when you're on a long haul journey and traveling without company.
Viva Las Vegas
 
BestWestern
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:32 pm

Scootbiz is simply terrible.

Seat: Terrible (don't choose a window seat if you want to get up for any part of the flight.
Food: Even worse
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3167
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Re: Worst Business Class

Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:45 pm

How has everyone missed mentioning China Southern? Poor hard product, dismissive crew... so far, that's the worst I have endured.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:14 am

United Airlines business class with 8 abreast seating and some seats facing backwards are way below anything that should be allowed to be called business class.
On the other hand, Scandinavians (SK) new business class with 1-2-1 seating in business are surprisingly good.
 
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N62NA
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:18 am

JAAlbert wrote:
BA's coffin like cubicles seem so uncomfortable to me. I cant imagine why folks fly BA J claas given what the competition offers


I can't believe it took 11replies until BA was mentioned. They ARE the absolute worst!
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:20 am

airzim wrote:
United has no "direct aisle" aircraft flying except for 1 777-300ER which won't start until later this month.
You're right. I was confusing them with AA. Although the UA 787 center seats are direct access, so if you are travelling on your own you can usually get one of those. The Polaris seats will take a while to be widely available.
Last edited by glbltrvlr on Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
DDR
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:20 am

Asiaflyer wrote:
United Airlines business class with 8 abreast seating and some seats facing backwards are way below anything that should be allowed to be called business class.
On the other hand, Scandinavians (SK) new business class with 1-2-1 seating in business are surprisingly good.


What UA aircraft has 8 abreast business class?
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:21 am

Just to be snarky...Southwest has a fare bucket known as Business Select which offers some soft perks but the same coach seats as everyone else.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
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christao17
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:25 am

tysmith95 wrote:
#1%Problems


That kind of sums it up! :D

I think any airline that is offering a true lie-flat product is pretty good. Even without direct aisle access (event UA's 2-4-2- back to front layout), I find it easy enough to step over the other person without disturbing them and I can generally get a good nap on the seat.

Beyond that, it is hard to say best/worst as it really is a matter of opinion and preference. Some people want a J class that reminds them of F (attentive service, fine food and wines, etc.) while others just want to be able to sleep while others just want to be able to work... there is no single right answer.
More than a dozen years flying in and around Asia...
 
ahj2000
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:29 am

UIA flies tiny recliners across thepond...
-Andrés Juánez
 
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christao17
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:29 am

DDR wrote:
Asiaflyer wrote:
United Airlines business class with 8 abreast seating and some seats facing backwards are way below anything that should be allowed to be called business class.
On the other hand, Scandinavians (SK) new business class with 1-2-1 seating in business are surprisingly good.


What UA aircraft has 8 abreast business class?


All the legacy UA aircraft had 8-abreast business class in an alternating front-to-back layout. The newer planes are being delivered (starting with the 777-300ER) with the new Polaris layout which has direct aisle access for all seats.
More than a dozen years flying in and around Asia...
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:30 am

DDR wrote:
Asiaflyer wrote:
United Airlines business class with 8 abreast seating and some seats facing backwards are way below anything that should be allowed to be called business class.
On the other hand, Scandinavians (SK) new business class with 1-2-1 seating in business are surprisingly good.


What UA aircraft has 8 abreast business class?

Both thier 744 and three class 772s. Fortunately their realized their mistake and put better seating into the 77W.
Check out seatguru for more details.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:39 am

pasu129 wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Air Koryo Business Class. yes I know it's not a "Major" but it's a flag carrier after all!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scjHAu1I8fQ


Love that the video is of another a.netter Mr. Sam Chui!

Yep. I read Sam's reviews avidly when he writes them, and love the videos.
 
trent1000
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:50 am

Singapore Airlines (cue audible gasp from some ANetters) operate their regional workhorse, the A330, to Australia as well, with 2X2X2 config angled seats for flights around 8 hours. Not ideal for overnight flights, compounded by up to a three hour time difference. Not only do they charge like wounded bulls for that, but then one is whacked with major A380 surcharges for connecting sectors.
 
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Rookie87
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:03 am

glbltrvlr wrote:
airzim wrote:
United has no "direct aisle" aircraft flying except for 1 777-300ER which won't start until later this month.
You're right. I was confusing them with AA. Although the UA 787 center seats are direct access, so if you are travelling on your own you can usually get one of those. The Polaris seats will take a while to be widely available.



AA doesn't have 747-400s so make up your mind on who you're confusing them with lol
 
pzurita1
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:09 am

From my experiencia, Air Koryo. Though it is not actually that bad as many think, it still lacks of amenities of other seats in business class. I guess for a two hour flight (PEK-FNJ), service and seat was enough. So, as said, not bad but still years from others.
Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
 
redrooster3
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:35 am

DDR wrote:
Asiaflyer wrote:
United Airlines business class with 8 abreast seating and some seats facing backwards are way below anything that should be allowed to be called business class.
On the other hand, Scandinavians (SK) new business class with 1-2-1 seating in business are surprisingly good.


What UA aircraft has 8 abreast business class?


sUA 777-200s, International and Domestic birds. And the 744s.

I honestly don't see the hate in the BusinessFirst, the seat is very comfortable and especially with the Polaris upgrade makes the food quality and Amenities a very enjoyable flight. Then again, I've only flown the BF product on the 2-2-2 layout on the Dreamliner and 767s
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rwsea
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:46 am

glbltrvlr wrote:
I don't think you can tag an airline this way. For example, the UA 747-400 Business Class seats don't all have direct aisle access, but their 787 seats do. LH is still flying aircraft with lay flat seats, but they aren't 180 degrees to the floor, but not all their aircraft are that way.


Not true, UA doesn't currently have a single plane with all direct aisle business class, with the exception of the 777-300ER which isn't in revenue service yet.
 
HPAEAA
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:52 am

jumbojet wrote:
jkrugman22 wrote:
Any carrier with business class seats that aren't fully flat bed or direct aisle access are subpar in my opinion #thestruggleisreal


so basically AA's 777's that still haven't been converted yet qualify. 2-3-2 angled in business. worst in class.

Agree, the small intestine v screen & the fact that you constantly slide down the seat really doesn't make it a great experience for long haul... honestly though even the 763 regime isn't that great, I like the concept but the cut corners on the entertainment...

JAAlbert wrote:
BA's coffin like cubicles seem so uncomfortable to me. I cant imagine why folks fly BA J claas given what the competition offers


I actually love these seats, long, private & pretty functional, I usually try and fly them whenever I cross the Atlantic...
1.4mm and counting...
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5333
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:21 am

DL's 767 C seat is pretty meh (if you are tall at least) for longer flying. I am pretty disappointed they picked the Thompson XL seat for the A350 fleet. I was hoping for either a better version of the Cirrus or the Super Diamond.

Also the hospital feel of DL's C cabin in general needs to change. JMO.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:35 am

The BA club cabin is quite good actually. Centre seat upstairs in the A380 is fantastic. CZ business class is a full flatbed that is seen on many airlines. Hard product good, soft product poor.

ScootBiz by far the worst, even when comparing the Air Asia J class seat, which is surprisingly fantastic for a LCC carrier. No wonder scoot have dropped HKG.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:54 am

I suggest moving this to Travel, Polls & Preferences.
 
zkncj
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:23 am

Virgin Australia offers an pretty poor short-haul intl (New Zealand & Pacific Islands) Business Class hard product.

On these routes which are 3-5hours long they are operated by 738s that have there domestic product on board. For example no leg rest, no tv's just basic recliners and an half high fake wall.

http://www.traveller.com.au/airline-rev ... and-1mjmw4
 
BestWestern
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:25 am

The worst short haul J class has to be SK now. No Fast Track, No lounge access in dozens of airports.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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usdcaguy
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:40 am

Not a fan of the DL 767 seats. Too narrow if you're a stomach sleeper.
 
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cv990Coronado
Posts: 351
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:06 am

Perhaps the worst is the one you don't get upgraded to.
I find it very interesting that BA has many posts saying "terrible" and others "quite good" . I have never flown BA in J, the F product is getting tired. A lot seems to depend on whether you are travelling alone or as a couple, BA sounds better alone than for a couple.
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MSPNWA
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:09 am

rwsea wrote:
Not true, UA doesn't currently have a single plane with all direct aisle business class, with the exception of the 777-300ER which isn't in revenue service yet.


Technically they do on all sCO planes. The middle sections of 767s, 777s, and 787s are. If you add F to the table, UA offers some aisle-access seats on all widebodies.
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:25 am

glbltrvlr wrote:
LH is still flying aircraft with lay flat seats, but they aren't 180 degrees to the floor, but not all their aircraft are that way.

Not true for over a year anymore. All widebodys have been updated many months ago.
Happy Landings
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Worst Business Class

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:03 pm

I find the 8-across UA 777 pretty uninspiring in all honesty.

I do concede that the overall value equation of a J product is: seat+legroom+service, so you cannot really judge all by the amount of seats they cram in a row. I also find BA's grey coffins pretty claustrophobic. DL's colours -as someone has mentioned- are sterile and institutional looking and not at all cosy or elegant.

If you want a really solidly good J product I'm afraid you'll need to look beyond the shores of Europe and North America... Middle-east and Asia that is guys! :-)

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