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keesje
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Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:04 pm

Image

Can we develop a weighed parameter for economy class including

:arrow: seat width (base is 18 inch seat pan, 2 inch armrests), weight: 5
:arrow: pitch (base is 32 inch) weight : 7
:arrow: toilet space (base seat width 30 inch) weight : 5
:arrow: aisle width (base = 20 inch) weight : 4
:arrow: number of lavatories per 50 seats, weight : 4
:arrow: bin space per seat (volume) weight : 3

The scores would be parabolic influenced. When an item is far below base value, the score takes a extra hit, while going much higher, it doesn't add much more value.

Not perfect, but better than nothing. We can't expect millions of consumers to go through all numbers.

If objectively measurable, it can be included on booking engines so people actually understand what they pay for, if they book a MAX200 or a 192 seat A320 flight.

Airlines can/will still specify cabins as they feel matches market needs and really stand out if they choose to!
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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seahawk
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:26 pm

I think a red - yellow - green solution is easier.

seat width
18"+ = green
17"+ = yellow
below 17" = red

seat pitch
32"+ = green
30-32" = yellow
below 30" = red

on board catering
free snack + drink = green
free water or coffee = yellow
none = red

Overall score is given by the worst score. You could enforce it as standard based on health concerns - like thrombosis - red = increased potential risk
 
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tlecam
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:29 pm

I think it's a good idea and there's a lot of opportunity available here to come upw tih something. THe problem of course, is that there is no standard.

A few suggestions for additional input - seat recline amount, something for the "depth" of the seat (that is, the distance from the back of the seat to the front - sometimes in the state, we hear the term "thigh support" used to describe this in autos.

I think that an entertainment score would be cool too - power supplies, personal video, overhead video, personal device support, personal device viewing storage (e.g. a place to hang that iPad), wifi speed etc...

Overall, I like the idea, Keesje
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keesje
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:33 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think a red - yellow - green solution is easier.

seat width
18"+ = green
17"+ = yellow
below 17" = red

seat pitch
32"+ = green
30-32" = yellow
below 30" = red

on board catering
free snack + drink = green
free water or coffee = yellow
none = red

Overall score is given by the worst score. You could enforce it as standard based on health concerns - like thrombosis - red = increased potential risk


It would make the score simpler, but introduces margin and room for discussion/ opportunity for dismissal.
What if a seat is 17.8 inch wide, or pitch is 34 inch. Catering doesn't influence personal space and is even more subjective.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
planewasted
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:38 pm

I think seahawk's idea with colors is good.

When you search for flights on Google flights, it actually shows some comfort parameters. For example seat pitch or if a business class seat is lie flat. Hopefully they will add more soon!
 
Noshow
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:40 pm

Good topic and I like the color code concept. Now let's do some seatguru-style cabin maps and rate them spacewise.
 
cloudboy
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:58 pm

While I like the idea of having info that can be included in search engines, I think one number is going to do more harm than good. Too many people have differing ideas of what is important. An airline can use numbers for their E+ or even exit rows to hie up scores - which is OK for those who are most concerned with legroom, but hurts those who are more concerned with width than legroom. Even things lie seat pitch are misleading when you are really more concerned with distance between the front of the seat back and the back of the seat in front of you. And it varies from aircraft to aircraft, not just airline to airline.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
lowfareair
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:11 pm

cloudboy wrote:
While I like the idea of having info that can be included in search engines, I think one number is going to do more harm than good. Too many people have differing ideas of what is important. An airline can use numbers for their E+ or even exit rows to hie up scores - which is OK for those who are most concerned with legroom, but hurts those who are more concerned with width than legroom. Even things lie seat pitch are misleading when you are really more concerned with distance between the front of the seat back and the back of the seat in front of you. And it varies from aircraft to aircraft, not just airline to airline.


I think there are ways around that - i.e. the free seats (the ones one doesn't have to pay to get, or a 'standard' for no assigned seating carriers) are what get counted and buy ups can show a higher score.

The issue that I see is when an airline subs their 3-3-3 777 with a 3-4-3 model, or a 2-3-2 767 (with good seat width) for a 3-3-3 787. I could see some shenanigans happening here where better seat configs are used and then subbed with 'lower' seat configs as the flight gets closer to departure.
 
Noshow
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:17 pm

Additional question please:
As cabins seem to become more cramped all the time: What global institution could define minimum passenger cabin volume standards. ICAO? IATA? FAA/EASA?
Like AT LEAST 18 inches seat width or some certain seatpitch and such? I'm only talking about minimum standards that must be met all the time by anybody.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:25 pm

There is an important factor about seat pitch that I want to point out: safety.

In a recent accident the survivor said to be saved because of taking the brace position. Many others did not take it and perished. Of course, bad/good luck played a part, but evidently that contributed.

In most current western planes, a typical western male cannot bend in the brace position. At best he can lean against the seat in front, in long haul plane to have his head against the IFE screen, in short haul LCC to have his teeth against the upper corner of the front seat. In any case his head will be above the highest seat level so that if the overhead bins or something stored in it falls it hits first his head. How does this comply with the safety regulations?

If I cannot have my head protected, at least I would like that there are no heavy trolleys and bottles of alcohol above my head.

As for comfort, I like the proposal that there should be kind of obligatory warning, whether colour code or number, for restricted personal space and the right to cancel without penalties if the plane or seat is changed worse after purchase.
 
lowfareair
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:26 pm

CARST wrote:
Of course to make it easier for the travelling public (on a search engine) I would make 27 = "100% seat comfort level" and the do the appropriate math for lower and better faring seats. Perhaps with a factor of 4. Like the example above at 26.1 would be 96.67% of the seat at 27.0, so 3.33% worse than the standard seat. Use the factor: 3.33% * 4 = 13.33%. So 100% - 13.33% = 86.67% seat comfort level. You could even the mentioned idea of green, yellow and orange. With 90%+ being green, 80-90% being yellow and everything below 80% being orange/red. Something like that...


I would do it, but stretch out the numbers a bit - for example, 13.5" width (hypothetically) is not 75% comfort level, but rather 0% comfort level. Maybe make it 15"/27" 0% and 18"/32" 100%. Would put the JAL 787 economy seat at about 130% comfort level in width and 120% comfort level in the pitch. Conversely, it would put the XL Airways plane (16"/30" IIRC) at 33% comfort level in width and 60% comfort level in pitch.
 
incitatus
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:16 pm

Most people can only digest quality ratings 0 to 10.

Use the rectangle area of a seat: 16 in wide and 28 in pitch is 448 sq. in. Rate that 0.0
18 in wide and 36 in pitch is 648 sq. in. Rate that 10.0.
All areas in between are worth 1.0 point for every 20.0 sq. in. of floor space. 10.0 is the max in the scale, so any seat taking more than 648 sq. in. gets rated 10.0.

17.2 in wide at 31 in pitch gets a 4.3 score.
18.0 in wide at 33 in pitch gets a 7.3 score.
A seat in the front of the Y cabin 18.0 wide at 35 in pitch gets a 9.1.
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keesje
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Posts: 13950
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:30 pm

Thanks for all the input. I would include bin space, aisle width and lavatory too. That seems to fit in "personal space".
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:58 am

cloudboy wrote:
While I like the idea of having info that can be included in search engines, I think one number is going to do more harm than good.


To be clear, you think this (admittedly not perfect) number is better than *no data*? Can you explain why this one number is worse than no data at all?

The last time I flew Air New Zealand was two years ago. I don't remember the seat pitch or comfort. Should I choose them or Quantas, which I've never flown? Perhaps a reminder would be better than no data.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:04 am

seahawk wrote:
I think a red - yellow - green solution is easier.

seat width
18"+ = green
17"+ = yellow
below 17" = red

seat pitch
32"+ = green
30-32" = yellow
below 30" = red

on board catering
free snack + drink = green
free water or coffee = yellow
none = red

Overall score is given by the worst score. You could enforce it as standard based on health concerns - like thrombosis - red = increased potential risk


The problem with this is that every airline has an incentive to have an 18" wide seat, an no incentive to go higher. But I like 19" even more than 18". Those systems that assign a number score do not have this problem.

Suppose an airplane can reasonably only have 17" seats like the 737. Then there is no incentive to have more than 30" pitch. I'm doomed to yellow so I'll cram the seats as close as the yellow category allows, which is 30" pitch. A math-based system might allow (within reason) the airline to trade off width and pitch to achieve the coveted green category.
 
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keesje
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:38 pm

I'm wondering how to best define seat width.

The armrest width can be varied.

E.g. widening the seatcushions 0.5 inch on a three seater, but narrowing the 4 armrests by 0.5 inch at the same time, would look good in the figures but not for you shoulders / personal space..

Or the airline could decrease aisle width, hitting aisle passenger comfort.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3212662/Could-economy-class-finally-getting-comfortable-BA-plans-increase-seat-sizes-passengers-wriggle-room-s-half-inch.html

Does anyone know where BA found that 4.5 inch? The fuselage didn't get any wider.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3212662/Could-economy-class-finally-getting-comfortable-BA-plans-increase-seat-sizes-passengers-wriggle-room-s-half-inch.html


I could define base 2,3,4 and 5 position seats, including 30 inch seat cushions and 2 inch armrests. Plus a separate score for aisle width.
Image

It seems a third grade function might do to award every tenth of an inch. Keeping scores a kind a flat around the base and charging / adding points the worse / better it gets.

Image
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817Dreamliiner
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:40 pm

keesje wrote:
I'm wondering how to best define seat width.



Maybe you should use the average width per passenger based on the aisle width used. For example:

A350:
Cabin width: 221"
aisles:18"
Average width: (221-(2*18))/9 = 20.55" per passenger

787
Cabin width: 216"
aisles:18"
Average width: (216-(2*18))/9 = 20" per passenger

A330
Cabin width: 208"
aisles:19"
Average width: (208-(2*19))/8 = 21.25" per passenger

777
Cabin width: 231"
aisles:17"
Average width: (231-(2*17))/10 = 19.7" per passenger

Those numbers are fixed unless you change the width of the aisles.

keesje wrote:


If the seat was 16.8' with 2 inch armrests, the aisles would have been up to 19.9" wide (using 215 inches out 216). If they are going to 17.3' as the article suggests then the aisle would be reduced to around 17.65' which gives you your 4.5 inch difference combining the two aisles.
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keesje
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:42 am

817Dreamliiner wrote:
keesje wrote:
I'm wondering how to best define seat width.



Maybe you should use the average width per passenger based on the aisle width used. For example:

A350:
Cabin width: 221"
aisles:18"
Average width: (221-(2*18))/9 = 20.55" per passenger

787
Cabin width: 216"
aisles:18"
Average width: (216-(2*18))/9 = 20" per passenger

A330
Cabin width: 208"
aisles:19"
Average width: (208-(2*19))/8 = 21.25" per passenger

777
Cabin width: 231"
aisles:17"
Average width: (231-(2*17))/10 = 19.7" per passenger

Those numbers are fixed unless you change the width of the aisles.

keesje wrote:


If the seat was 16.8' with 2 inch armrests, the aisles would have been up to 19.9" wide (using 215 inches out 216). If they are going to 17.3' as the article suggests then the aisle would be reduced to around 17.65' which gives you your 4.5 inch difference combining the two aisles.



817Dreamliiner, a smart / simple approach, I like it! Cabin width - the aisle(s) is for the passengers, however you do the seatcushion/ armrest. The aisle width is a separate variable with it's own weight in the end score.

What would in your opinion be the best place to measure cabin width, seat pan, shoulder, average of those two..

Then there is the luggage bin volume. Total volume for the economy cabin / number of seats I guess. Where to find those numbers..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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817Dreamliiner
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:09 pm

keesje wrote:


817Dreamliiner, a smart / simple approach, I like it! Cabin width - the aisle(s) is for the passengers, however you do the seatcushion/ armrest. The aisle width is a separate variable with it's own weight in the end score.

What would in your opinion be the best place to measure cabin width, seat pan, shoulder, average of those two..

Then there is the luggage bin volume. Total volume for the economy cabin / number of seats I guess. Where to find those numbers..

The reason I did it that way is because, as you stated, seat width can be easily manipulated by using thinner armrests. A better number to use would probably be cabin width at shoulder height, but those numbers are not really known. My guesses for the A350 and 787, based on their not to scale ACAP cross section drawings, are 217.43 and 213.85 respectively. Those could be off by some degree, but gives you an idea at least.
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keesje
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Re: Cramped cabins, Single score to measure "personal space" ?

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:43 pm

817Dreamliiner wrote:
keesje wrote:


817Dreamliiner, a smart / simple approach, I like it! Cabin width - the aisle(s) is for the passengers, however you do the seatcushion/ armrest. The aisle width is a separate variable with it's own weight in the end score.

What would in your opinion be the best place to measure cabin width, seat pan, shoulder, average of those two..

Then there is the luggage bin volume. Total volume for the economy cabin / number of seats I guess. Where to find those numbers..

The reason I did it that way is because, as you stated, seat width can be easily manipulated by using thinner armrests. A better number to use would probably be cabin width at shoulder height, but those numbers are not really known. My guesses for the A350 and 787, based on their not to scale ACAP cross section drawings, are 217.43 and 213.85 respectively. Those could be off by some degree, but gives you an idea at least.


817Dreamliiner thnx. As you state maybe for cabin width, data availability is an issue. Probably the highest cabin width is a acceptable compromise. For comparable aircraft curvature is about the same. And it's the number you see often in cross section dimensions.

Now find some time to put it in excel & publish so everyone can use it. Does anyone have ideas on the relative weighing of the 6 variables I mentioned?

:arrow: seat width (base is 18 inch seat pan, 2 inch armrests), weight: 5
:arrow: pitch (base is 32 inch) weight : 7
:arrow: toilet space (base seat width 30 inch) weight : 5
:arrow: aisle width (base = 20 inch) weight : 4
:arrow: number of lavatories per 50 seats, weight : 4
:arrow: bin space per seat (volume) weight : 3
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