csavel
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Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:46 am

inspired by this thread and this news article about St. Pierre getting trans-atlantic flights, I began to wonder about how that might work in terms of immigration.

St. Pierre & Miquelon and Reunion while both part of France, using the Euro and voting in French elections, are NOT part of Schengen. I believe a Canadian need only a Driver's license to go to St. Pierre, while obviously a full passport is required for mainland France. For Reunion, there are citizens of some neighboring countries that can enter with only a passport (I think South Africa, Mauritius, and maybe Madagascar?) but would need an EU visa to board a flight to Paris. This makes sense when you think about it.

But how does that work practically?

Scenario, someone from Mauritius goes to Reunion with only a Mauritius passport. OK now he buys a ticket to Paris-Orly. Is it just a matter of the check-in agent making sure that someone with a Mauritian or South African address has the proper Schengen visa? Are there passport checks ONLY to Paris? Do pax have to go through immigration when landing at Orly?

I assume the reverse more like a true domestic flight since anyone in France can obviously go to Reunion.

PS I believe Martinique and Guadeloupe ARE in the Schengen zone so no complications there. Have no idea about French Guiana.

PPS, since I have a feeling someone will lecture me about how these places are just as much France as Paris (said with a smug eyeroll at the ignorant American) bear in mind I know that, my question is what is the procedure on flights between "mainland" France and those parts of France that are NOT part of the Schengen area.
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NichCage
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:29 am

There are no direct flights from the country of France to Saint Pierre, but you can get a connecting flight through places like Montreal, Halifax, Saint John's, and a few other cities in the maritimes. I believe when it comes to Saint Pierre, if your staying more than 90 days you need a passport. But otherwise, less than 90 days you don't need one.

Saint Pierre also has a pretty small population.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:26 am

NichCage wrote:
There are no direct flights from the country of France to Saint Pierre

You may wish to take a closer read of the opening post:
csavel wrote:
inspired by this thread and this news article about St. Pierre getting trans-atlantic flights, I began to wonder about how that might work in terms of immigration.


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konkret
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:32 am

Neither Guadeloupe nor Martinique are inside the Schengen area.
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:20 am

It's simple, you just go through an immigration control on the flight.

It's not a big deal for French people as you are required to have an ID card anyway. Non-French EU citizens in France are required to have ID anyway in the form of a passport or national ID card.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:51 am

Schengen is not working anymore in France, anyway.

I have flown several times this year to different French airports (CDG, MRS, LYS, BIQ, BOD on top of my head) from several Schengen countries (Germany, Belgium, Spain...) and there has been always a passport / ID control on arrival.
 
goldorak
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:47 pm

csavel wrote:
inspired by this thread and this news article about St. Pierre getting trans-atlantic flights, I began to wonder about how that might work in terms of immigration.

St. Pierre & Miquelon and Reunion while both part of France, using the Euro and voting in French elections, are NOT part of Schengen. I believe a Canadian need only a Driver's license to go to St. Pierre, while obviously a full passport is required for mainland France. For Reunion, there are citizens of some neighboring countries that can enter with only a passport (I think South Africa, Mauritius, and maybe Madagascar?) but would need an EU visa to board a flight to Paris. This makes sense when you think about it.

But how does that work practically?

Scenario, someone from Mauritius goes to Reunion with only a Mauritius passport. OK now he buys a ticket to Paris-Orly. Is it just a matter of the check-in agent making sure that someone with a Mauritian or South African address has the proper Schengen visa? Are there passport checks ONLY to Paris? Do pax have to go through immigration when landing at Orly?

I assume the reverse more like a true domestic flight since anyone in France can obviously go to Reunion.

PS I believe Martinique and Guadeloupe ARE in the Schengen zone so no complications there. Have no idea about French Guiana.

PPS, since I have a feeling someone will lecture me about how these places are just as much France as Paris (said with a smug eyeroll at the ignorant American) bear in mind I know that, my question is what is the procedure on flights between "mainland" France and those parts of France that are NOT part of the Schengen area.

None of the French overseas territories are in Schengen. Full immigration control on departure and arrival. But French citizens can just travel with their ID cards.
 
goldorak
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:50 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Schengen is not working anymore in France, anyway.

I have flown several times this year to different French airports (CDG, MRS, LYS, BIQ, BOD on top of my head) from several Schengen countries (Germany, Belgium, Spain...) and there has been always a passport / ID control on arrival.

You cannot say that. There were for sure some more checks during the 2 years of the state of emergency after the last terrorist attacks, especially in the non-Paris airports, but there was still a lot of Schengen flights without controls. From CDG, talking about something like 40 Schengen flights in 2 years, I had passport control on arrival only twice and never on departure.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:06 pm

There is a parallel case in the USA: some of their "protectorates" in the Pacific allow visa and ESTA free entrance for passport holders of Russia, China, Malaysia, Papua New Guinea etc. but none of those may continue their journey to the contiguous US states.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:21 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
Schengen is not working anymore in France, anyway.

I have flown several times this year to different French airports (CDG, MRS, LYS, BIQ, BOD on top of my head) from several Schengen countries (Germany, Belgium, Spain...) and there has been always a passport / ID control on arrival.



Disagree, not my experience at all. Note that, attacks situations apart, there are some dates where Schengen is suspended, usually when EU/ministers meetings happen, which is not unusual in France.
 
777klm
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:28 pm

Although not answering your question I can tell you the situation of the Netherlands, which is quite similar to France.

The Caribbean island of Bonaire is a municipality of The Netherlands, but is however not in the Schengen area. The non-stop AMS-BON flights therefore leave from the non-Schengen part of AMS. This means a passport is mandatory for all travelers on this route, including Dutch citizens.

The situation of AUA, CUR and SXM, although part of the KINGDOM of The Netherlands (and not the COUNTRY of the Netherlands) is a bit different as these are considered different countries. Still, this means a passport is mandatory for all travellers flying in from AMS.
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SCQ83
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:45 am

Jayafe wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Schengen is not working anymore in France, anyway.

I have flown several times this year to different French airports (CDG, MRS, LYS, BIQ, BOD on top of my head) from several Schengen countries (Germany, Belgium, Spain...) and there has been always a passport / ID control on arrival.



Disagree, not my experience at all. Note that, attacks situations apart, there are some dates where Schengen is suspended, usually when EU/ministers meetings happen, which is not unusual in France.


Flew on Saturday to France, Schengen control. Anytime I have flown this year, Schengen control.
 
777klm
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:19 am

SCQ83 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
Schengen is not working anymore in France, anyway.

I have flown several times this year to different French airports (CDG, MRS, LYS, BIQ, BOD on top of my head) from several Schengen countries (Germany, Belgium, Spain...) and there has been always a passport / ID control on arrival.



Disagree, not my experience at all. Note that, attacks situations apart, there are some dates where Schengen is suspended, usually when EU/ministers meetings happen, which is not unusual in France.


Flew on Saturday to France, Schengen control. Anytime I have flown this year, Schengen control.


That is very well possible and likely to remain so until at least April 2018. This is due to the "persistant terrorist threat".
For an actual list of temporary suspensions of Schengen in a particular European country, consult the website of the European Commission. That is (or at least should be) up to date:
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what- ... control_en
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euroflyer
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:20 am

None of the French overseas territories are in Schengen. Full immigration control on departure and arrival. But French citizens can just travel with their ID cards.


Fully agree.
For example, A Malagasy citizen boards flight TNR to RUN with a specific visa for Reunion territory. He's got to have another visa to continue his journey on RUN-CDG (the one he got to enter Reunion is NOT valid for Schengen). Controls will be performed on departure and upon arrival, either denied access to the flight at RUN or denied access to European territory at Border Police at CDG, and sent back (often at airline expense). Happens every single day.
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COSPN
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:44 am

Some counties like Russia and China can enter the US territory of Guam without a visa .. so on the Guam to Honolulu flight they do a “immigration preclearce “ by US immigration at the gate.. (gates 8 and 9) in GUM are set up for this
 
klakzky123
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:56 am

Some of you are really overthinking this. If St Pierre isn't in Schengen, then flights from there won't land at a Schengen terminal in France. They'll instead land in an international terminal where passengers will have to clear immigration before either transiting to another city in the EU or leaving the airport. It would end up being no different than flying from say the United States.
 
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euroflyer
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:56 am

klakzky123 wrote:
Some of you are really overthinking this. If St Pierre isn't in Schengen, then flights from there won't land at a Schengen terminal in France. They'll instead land in an international terminal where passengers will have to clear immigration before either transiting to another city in the EU or leaving the airport. It would end up being no different than flying from say the United States.


Well, I think you're underthinking this. The case here is about non-European boarding on flight between non-Schengen and Schengen locations, within the same country. And especially visa requirements and differencies for access to French territory that is not Schengen and French Schengen mainland.
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hvusslax
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:03 pm

I don't know what's so complicated. French overseas departments that are not part of the Schengen area are just treated as any other territory outside Schengen for the purposes of border control. That's the simple answer to the OP question. Someone who is allowed to enter Reunion without a visa but requires a visa to visit the Schengen area will just not be allowed to board a flight to metropolitan France without a Schengen visa. If they still get on the plane for whatever reason, they will be denied entry to the Schengen area when they arrive at passport control in France (or any other Schengen country for that matter).
 
Someone83
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:23 pm

Same with Svalbard. Flights to LYR from OSL and TOS is departing as an International flight, as Svalbard is part of Norway but outside Schengen
 
klakzky123
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:29 pm

hvusslax wrote:
I don't know what's so complicated. French overseas departments that are not part of the Schengen area are just treated as any other territory outside Schengen for the purposes of border control. That's the simple answer to the OP question. Someone who is allowed to enter Reunion without a visa but requires a visa to visit the Schengen area will just not be allowed to board a flight to metropolitan France without a Schengen visa. If they still get on the plane for whatever reason, they will be denied entry to the Schengen area when they arrive at passport control in France (or any other Schengen country for that matter).


I'm aware of this. Schengen was built around the assumption that this would happen.

Schengen has a very simple principle. You have to go through immigration (regardless of what passport you hold) at the first port of entry into or out of the Schengen area. So even if you're transiting within a single country, if it involves entering or leaving the Schengen area, you have to go through an immigration queue (or one of the automated immigration machines if you're an EU citizen).

This problem exists for all EU countries with portions that are outside the Schengen area. Flights from those non-Schengen territories functionally become international flights (even though its flying within a single country) because they can't land in a Schengen terminal. The whole territorial integrity of the Schengen Area falls apart of this principle isn't universally applied. Schengen was intended to supersede national borders so it doesn't matter if you're traveling within France. If you are going between Schengen and Non-Schengen territories, you have to go through immigration. Otherwise the system fails.

To use an American example, a flight from Honolulu to Pago Pago still forces US citizens through immigration even though US citizens have the right to live and work in American Samoa. American Samoa's legal status is similar to Reunion. It has a separate immigration policy and system even though it is part of the US (with a separate legal status) and US citizens must clear immigration despite not technically leaving the US. Because American Samoa's immigration system is not operated by the US Federal Government, all passengers have to go through immigration even if you are traveling from the US.
 
TravelsUK
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:20 pm

My last trip from ORY to Reunion travelling on my EU passport - no passport check leaving ORY, I was allowed to buy duty free goods as an international passenger, brief passport check on arrival in RUN, no customs control. On departure passports / ID checked at check-in and there was a further formal border control completed, no passport check completed on arrival in ORY.
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LTU932
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Re: Flights from France to overseas departments that aren't in Schengen

Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:29 pm

TravelsUK wrote:
My last trip from ORY to Reunion travelling on my EU passport - no passport check leaving ORY, I was allowed to buy duty free goods as an international passenger, brief passport check on arrival in RUN, no customs control. On departure passports / ID checked at check-in and there was a further formal border control completed, no passport check completed on arrival in ORY.
I suppose it's because it's like a de-facto domestic flight with international characteristics.

As for French Guyana for example, which is closer to Costa Rica than France, I'd probably expect the same kind of passport control like when you enter Schengen at the first port of entry, and the same when leaving, which means EU passports are not stamped and maybe, coming from mainland France, also no/limited customs checks.
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