Hello!

As the title says. What are BA’s most O&D destinations at Heathrow? Reason for why I’m wondering is what routes could be transferred to Gatwick with minimal impact on connecting customers. BA wants to expand to imerging markets, but needs the slots to do so.

Let us know your thoughts,

LGWBAW

Probably whichever ones they operate from T3 rather than T5... they must(?) presume those routes are less in need of a seamless connection with the rest of the network.

Interesting one. We wouldn't really know the split unless BA actually released the figures. Most markets at LHR would recieve a lot of O&D as it's London, but also a lot of feed from BA's extensive short haul network.

To be honest, most of the flight swapping to LGW has been done by now for the short term.

You’re predicating your arguement on the assumption they’d want to move routes to LGW for “emerging markets”. That’s wrong IMHO.
LGW was a loss maker that baffled BA for decades, literally decades. It now makes money for two reasons. They slashed and burned costs by cutting wages again and again then outsourced all below the wing handling and latterly replacing aircraft with very used second hand A320s and using B777s that don’t have refurbished IFE and hard product. They also kept fleet types to a minimum with a B737/B77E base now an A320* /B77E base with cabin crew flying both long and short haul.

Fundamentally though BA keeps business friendly routes at LHR and sun leisure at LGW. Which terminal at LHR is not a guide as to whether connections are a large %, LAS has a load of connections but remains in T3. In short, there’s not much scope to move anything to LGW without breaking a winning formula. Some of the duplicated long haul at LGW is only there to try and spoil it for DI.

Aside from JER, moving to LHR, not sure what else best sits at LGW, the LHR sun routes actually do rather well I believe and keep the fleet busy off peak.
Remember the last time BA moved routes en masse to LGW the premium market just stayed at LHR and chose another operator, it’s a dangerous lesson they learned the hard way. Lack of need for feed does not mean the market would happlily all troop to LGW.

Skip

I hope that this thread doesn't drag on from your perfect response, we can always rely on your good self to say it as it is and your points hopefully will be understood by all.

Switching routes to LGW from LHR is dangerous all the J class traffic is at Heathrow. At one time BA had all the routes to Africa and Latin America at LGW except Johannesburg and that didn't work out so well.

skipness1E wrote:

You’re predicating your arguement on the assumption they’d want to move routes to LGW for “emerging markets”. That’s wrong IMHO.
LGW was a loss maker that baffled BA for decades, literally decades. It now makes money for two reasons. They slashed and burned costs by cutting wages again and again then outsourced all below the wing handling and latterly replacing aircraft with very used second hand A320s and using B777s that don’t have refurbished IFE and hard product. They also kept fleet types to a minimum with a B737/B77E base now an A320* /B77E base with cabin crew flying both long and short haul.

Though BA's below-the-wing handling at LGW is now done by a wholly owned BA subsidiary, as the various ground handling contractors they tried over several years either failed to meet the performance specifications, went out of business, or closed down their LGW operations.
And the LGW B777s are now receiving a much needed refurbishment and new IFE, admittedly along with reseating to 10-across in Y.

Cunard wrote:

Skip

I hope that this thread doesn't drag on from your perfect response, we can always rely on your good self to say it as it is and your points hopefully will be understood by all.

Fawning aside, are you asking the mods to lock this thread because nobody else's contribution will be worthy?

Remember it's not simply about O&D, it's also the type of O&D, When you're travelling on business on your own with few bags coming from the office, the shorter and cheaper journey times to the airport by public transport or taxi make heathrow a lot more desirable. When you've got the entire family, loads of bags and therefore want your car, the easier drive and cheaper parking make gatwick more likely.

As no one else has speculated on the more O&D routes yet so I will, so will go with:

MIA
LAS
AGP
GIB

Not suggesting any move to LGW though as said above there is a reason these run from LHR...

Low frequency short haul routes carry the most O&D pax and in particular buck&spade ones.

At the moment these are LEI, OVD, FAO, BIO, GIB, IBZ, INN, INV, KBP, SOF, ZAG, KRK, LUX, AGP, PMO, MJV, PMI, KEF, LED, TLL, TFS.

You can measure it by volume and I'm sure NYC, DUB, MAD, GLA, EDI and AMS carry the most. You can also find virtually all pax on any flight into LHR landing after 9.30pm to be O&D.

In the U.S. the top 2 must be LHR-NYC (JFK/EWR) followed by LHR-LAX.

B747forever wrote:

In the U.S. the top 2 must be LHR-NYC (JFK/EWR) followed by LHR-LAX.

In terms of volume yes... but in terms of proportion, I would argue otherwise. The sub-daily seasonal holiday routes would have the highest proportion of O&D.

In the past, BKK has been strongly rumoured as a potential LGW route and would certainly have a high proportion of O&D traffic. The reason it hasn't moved will have a lot to do with TG being on the route; business travellers would switch to TG rather than fly out of LGW. For their long haul leisure routes, flown solely from LGW, there is seldom an equivalent flight out of LHR with a competitor. I can only think of VS to BGI which has only come about recently, I believe.

Themotionman wrote:

B747forever wrote:

In the U.S. the top 2 must be LHR-NYC (JFK/EWR) followed by LHR-LAX.

In terms of volume yes... but in terms of proportion, I would argue otherwise. The sub-daily seasonal holiday routes would have the highest proportion of O&D.

But I dont see the value of discussing proportion of OD. Otherwise you could have a Cessna 172 with a full load of 3 OD pax which would have a 100% OD figure.

Even VS's LHR-BGI flights are seasonal, with the twice-weekly flights resuming on 11 December 2018 and ending on 23 February 2019. Most of the Caribbean flights are from LGW and will remain there for the foreseeable future.

skipness1E wrote:

You’re predicating your arguement on the assumption they’d want to move routes to LGW for “emerging markets”. That’s wrong IMHO.
LGW was a loss maker that baffled BA for decades, literally decades. It now makes money for two reasons. They slashed and burned costs by cutting wages again and again then outsourced all below the wing handling and latterly replacing aircraft with very used second hand A320s and using B777s that don’t have refurbished IFE and hard product. They also kept fleet types to a minimum with a B737/B77E base now an A320* /B77E base with cabin crew flying both long and short haul.

Fundamentally though BA keeps business friendly routes at LHR and sun leisure at LGW. Which terminal at LHR is not a guide as to whether connections are a large %, LAS has a load of connections but remains in T3. In short, there’s not much scope to move anything to LGW without breaking a winning formula. Some of the duplicated long haul at LGW is only there to try and spoil it for DI.

Aside from JER, moving to LHR, not sure what else best sits at LGW, the LHR sun routes actually do rather well I believe and keep the fleet busy off peak.
Remember the last time BA moved routes en masse to LGW the premium market just stayed at LHR and chose another operator, it’s a dangerous lesson they learned the hard way. Lack of need for feed does not mean the market would happlily all troop to LGW.

...great post Skipness1E...... so many urban myths here on a-net tripped out time and time again, good to have an insightful vision of BA in the London market.


Follow-on question if I may...... do we know how many a/c BA now need at LGW to service their summer schedule with the ex-MON slots ?

How many B777 & how many A32X ?

Currently BA fleet at LGW stands at 11 A319, 16 A320 and 15 777-200ER

lhrsfosyd wrote:

Low frequency short haul routes carry the most O&D pax and in particular buck&spade ones.

At the moment these are LEI, OVD, FAO, BIO, GIB, IBZ, INN, INV, KBP, SOF, ZAG, KRK, LUX, AGP, PMO, MJV, PMI, KEF, LED, TLL, TFS.

You can measure it by volume and I'm sure NYC, DUB, MAD, GLA, EDI and AMS carry the most. You can also find virtually all pax on any flight into LHR landing after 9.30pm to be O&D.

You are largely correct, but don't make the mistake however of assuming that 'sunshine' destinations are 'marginal' for BA.

There are thousands of 'well-heeled' premium 'ex-pat' Brits who live in the sun; 'commute' home frequently; and prefer flying BA to LCC options......

From what I've heard, I think the positive response to BA doing more short-haul 'sun' flying has surprised many at BA.....

B747forever wrote:

Themotionman wrote:

B747forever wrote:

In the U.S. the top 2 must be LHR-NYC (JFK/EWR) followed by LHR-LAX.

In terms of volume yes... but in terms of proportion, I would argue otherwise. The sub-daily seasonal holiday routes would have the highest proportion of O&D.

But I dont see the value of discussing proportion of OD. Otherwise you could have a Cessna 172 with a full load of 3 OD pax which would have a 100% OD figure.

I think we are looking at the OP's question from different directions.

What are BA’s most O&D destinations at Heathrow?

I am thinking about which routes as more O&D focused. Whereas I think you are thinking about which routes have the largest O&D numbers.

But take a route like LBA. That has large numbers of connecting pax but not as many total connecting pax as JFK-LHR.

TedToToe wrote:

The reason it hasn't moved will have a lot to do with TG being on the route; business travellers would switch to TG rather than fly out of LGW.

Which I find quite interesting....BA at LGW, or just LGW in general just seem to has a bad reputation. For premium passengers the move to South Terminal is pretty excellent, IMO.

Getting to LGW from central London/City of London is subjectively easier than to LHR, despite being further away. If on the train the station is right by the south terminal. Separate First/ Club World desks that I've never had to wait at. Security is super fast and the lounge is only a couple of minutes walk using the shortcut. Although smaller than the LHR counterpart (and with no spa, business travellers shouldn't care about such fripperies {biggrin} ) the new lounges are really rather good! The Club lounge there (based on my walk through on my first visit) is better and quieter than LHR counterparts with some neat features!

I flew through LGW South on separate BA tickets a few weeks ago. From collecting my bag, going to check-in, security and into the First lounge was no more than about 10mins!

That said, as someone who does use JER with some regularity a move of those flights to LHR would be excellent!

fbgdavidson wrote:

TedToToe wrote:

The reason it hasn't moved will have a lot to do with TG being on the route; business travellers would switch to TG rather than fly out of LGW.

Which I find quite interesting....BA at LGW, or just LGW in general just seem to has a bad reputation. For premium passengers the move to South Terminal is pretty excellent, IMO.

Getting to LGW from central London/City of London is subjectively easier than to LHR, despite being further away. If on the train the station is right by the south terminal. Separate First/ Club World desks that I've never had to wait at. Security is super fast and the lounge is only a couple of minutes walk using the shortcut. Although smaller than the LHR counterpart (and with no spa, business travellers shouldn't care about such fripperies {biggrin} ) the new lounges are really rather good! The Club lounge there (based on my walk through on my first visit) is better and quieter than LHR counterparts with some neat features!

It is true that getting to LGW from parts of London is just as easy as getting to LHR. However, when you take into account the companies and business travellers in the M40, M4 and M3 corridors, the overwhelming preference for business travel is LHR.