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Drucocu
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Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:32 am

Hello!

I've been wondering given the development in airplanes and routes flown, if the current classification of flight durations shouldn't be amended.
Usual classifications I've seen is the following (All times block times):
0-3 hours short haul
3-6 hours medium haul
6+ hours long haul.

Since the A321neo and even the 738MAX are scheduled for 8+ hour flights (plus my personal opinion that everybody who demands a personal screen for less than 12 hours is a whiny female dog. Bring your own and plug it in), shouldn't it be time to reclassify the "definitions of the hauls"?

For example:
0-4h short haul. Lots of LCC's seem to be able to offer this without major inconveniences to the majority of the flying public.
4-8h medium haul. Long enough to be annoying, especially considering time zones, and a meal would be appreciated, but too short for a full night's / day's sleep.
8-14h long haul. Enough time to sleep and eat a meal, and for the longer half of journeys even watch a movie.
14+h ULH. Sleep, eat, watch a movie, and sleep again. Lord have mercy that I would never have to endure such a flight.

What's your opinion on the "classification of hauls"? Do you agree or have other insights, and why? I have built this on my own experience and thus it is not, could not be, nor will ever be applicable to the majority of the flying public.

Thnx in advance for your input, Drucocu
 
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BWIAirport
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:57 am

In practice, long-haul begins when you fly over oceans. For whatever reason, someone might view a 6h15m SAN-BOS flight as medium haul and a 4h30m BOS-KEF flight as long haul. This, of course, is typically an arbitrary, meaningless classification. It is however the flight "feels".
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a320fan
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:06 am

I have my own classifications on this that I use.

1-4 short haul
4-8 medium haul
8-15 long haul
15+ ULH
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
Varsity1
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:36 am

a320fan wrote:
I have my own classifications on this that I use.

1-4 short haul
4-8 medium haul
8-15 long haul
15+ ULH


this seems more appropriate.
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afterburner
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:39 am

a320fan wrote:
I have my own classifications on this that I use.

1-4 short haul
4-8 medium haul
8-15 long haul
15+ ULH

What do you call flights that are less than one hour?
 
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September11
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:22 am

For today, I guess this would be easier

Long-haul: International flights
Medium-haul: Cross-country flights
Short-haul: Domestic flights
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vahancrazy
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:33 am

If this is a "what if" thread, from an European point of view, I would consider:
0-1h ultra Short
1-3h Short (high majority of routes within Europe)
3-8h Medium (anything where you cannot have a full night rest considering the varous flight phases, etc)
8-13h Long (most of long haul routes)
13h+ ULH
 
devron
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:17 am

there are no fixed criteria I assume and for me it is case specific and I will add complexitiy.

1 or 2 hour flight is short always (unless it is ryanair then it is torture)

4 hours medium most of the times unless two 4 hour flight follow eachother with a 3 hours transfer and you fly durign the night and end up in another continent this is theoretical for me as I would not book this flight

up to 8 hours complex
Can be medium if during the day and I get rested to my destination.
Will me be be long haul if it is part of a multi-flight (i.e. transfer) itinerary e.g. a flight accros the atlantic can be long haul for me (e.g. FRA-LHR-JFK-Des Moises btw I don't think there is a JFK - Des moises flight but that is besides the point) or another e.g. if a 6 hour flight is followed by a 4 hour flight (EU-Dubai- Asia/Maldives)

>8 long hauls
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:43 am

vahancrazy wrote:
If this is a "what if" thread, from an European point of view, I would consider:
0-1h ultra Short
1-3h Short (high majority of routes within Europe)
3-8h Medium (anything where you cannot have a full night rest considering the varous flight phases, etc)
8-13h Long (most of long haul routes)
13h+ ULH


I think that 13 hours is too short to be ULH, although there is no set definition. I agree with those who say that it is over 14-15 hours.

I’ve always considered ULH to be a route that couldn’t be operated by a 747-400. The reason is that the 744 was the first mainstream aircraft (I say that to exclude the 747SP) that made flights up to 13-14 hours possible. I’m talking about routes such as LHR-SIN and LAX-SYD. The aircraft that came subsequently, starting with the A345 and 777-200LR and now including the 388, 789 and 359, are what really have pushed out the boundaries of gloabal aviation.
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MoKa777
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:59 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
I think that 13 hours is too short to be ULH, although there is no set definition. I agree with those who say that it is over 14-15 hours.

I’ve always considered ULH to be a route that couldn’t be operated by a 747-400. The reason is that the 744 was the first mainstream aircraft (I say that to exclude the 747SP) that made flights up to 13-14 hours possible. I’m talking about routes such as LHR-SIN and LAX-SYD. The aircraft that came subsequently, starting with the A345 and 777-200LR and now including the 388, 789 and 359, are what really have pushed out the boundaries of gloabal aviation.


I like your 747-400 centered definition for LH-ULH. I think we should use that.

Also, anything longer than an 8-hour work day, I would consider long haul.
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T54A
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:10 pm

September11 wrote:
For today, I guess this would be easier

Long-haul: International flights
Medium-haul: Cross-country flights
Short-haul: Domestic flights


This is a meaningless definition for flight duration and system design. An international flight can take 30min in parts of the world.
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redroo
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:50 pm

Interesting...

From an Aussie perspective, I don't think of SYD-PER (5hr) or BNE-PER (5.5hr) as medium haul, they're just flights. I don't think any of us view LAX as long haul either. I'm not even sure DFW is thought of as ULH anymore. I don't even view LHR as ULH, just longer than the others.

I did know an Aussie that described long haul as basically either LHR or NYC because it required a stop in the middle. Everything else was easy.

Bu this is an Aussie perspective. Our perception of distance is a bit warped :-)
 
Tucker1
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:54 pm

Why does this matter?
 
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CitizenJustin
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:14 pm

Or then there’s the Aussies who think a 10 hour flight is a short little, quaint trip. :-/
 
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nighthawk
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:40 pm

September11 wrote:
For today, I guess this would be easier

Long-haul: International flights
Medium-haul: Cross-country flights
Short-haul: Domestic flights


That's a very American-centric view of the world. I'm not sure I'd consider a 1 hour LHR-CDG flight to be long haul!
 
citationjet
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:54 pm

September11 wrote:
For today, I guess this would be easier

Long-haul: International flights
Medium-haul: Cross-country flights
Short-haul: Domestic flights


How do you distinguish cross country flights from domestic flights? All cross country flights would seem to be domestic flights, but not all domestic would be cross country. By domestic, do you mean non cross-country?

I am not sure I would call UA 363 (a domestic flight) from EWR to HNL a short haul flight. Average flight time is about 11 hours.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL363/history/20180408/1225Z/KEWR/PHNL
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BWIAirport
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:16 pm

afterburner wrote:
a320fan wrote:
I have my own classifications on this that I use.

1-4 short haul
4-8 medium haul
8-15 long haul
15+ ULH

What do you call flights that are less than one hour?

Puddle jumpers?
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32andBelow
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:33 pm

September11 wrote:
For today, I guess this would be easier

Long-haul: International flights
Medium-haul: Cross-country flights
Short-haul: Domestic flights

So Seattle to Vancouver on a q400 is long haul?
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:49 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:

I’ve always considered ULH to be a route that couldn’t be operated by a 747-400. The reason is that the 744 was the first mainstream aircraft (I say that to exclude the 747SP) that made flights up to 13-14 hours possible. I’m talking about routes such as LHR-SIN and LAX-SYD. The aircraft that came subsequently, starting with the A345 and 777-200LR and now including the 388, 789 and 359, are what really have pushed out the boundaries of gloabal aviation.


I conceptually agree, though the 742 was already doing 14 hour flight times TPAC, (maybe less than full load) in the era when Soviet air space was restricted. Probably wasn't efficient for the Eurasian land mass where tech stops were available, but in the Pacific it was already ULH of the day ;)

If 744 is your standard, then 15 hour routes are probably the better threshold.


Tucker1 wrote:
Why does this matter?


It helps to have commonly understood definitions, both for practical and esoteric reasons; passengers have biological/psychological needs and when discussing any given flight/route, things like meals/availability of food, lavs, IFE/power, are important. Especially in this stratified era of ultra-luxury F/J/lounges and cattle-car, deplorable Y conditions on the same route or even the same aircraft. Long haul LCC's and NB flying are changing the equations in all kinds of ways.

Drucocu wrote:
(plus my personal opinion that everybody who demands a personal screen for less than 12 hours is a whiny female dog. Bring your own and plug it in)


You and the other "BYOD crowd" overlook a number of reasons why BYOD is inferior to built-in IFE: children, for starters; I travel with multiple young children. Yes, I often bring electronics for them, but you have to account for weight, bulk, add'l security screening/time. Recharge power at gates or on board cannot always be counted on.

If I can count on functioning headrest IFE on a flight, it is a significant burden lifted from my shoulders.

Aside from that, headrest IFE commonly offers information not available on a feed to BYOD, like exterior cameras, realtime flight/destination info, etc.

BYOD is not an equivalent substitute for headrest IFE.

Drucocu wrote:
14+h ULH. Sleep, eat, watch a movie, and sleep again. Lord have mercy that I would never have to endure such a flight.


Kind of funny that you think headrest IFE is only appropriate for 12+ hours but you've never endured 14+ .
In your world, very, very few aircraft have any built-in IFE , which means the market such equipment is tiny, the product development virtually non-existent, the costs extremely high. In fact - likely to be restricted to premium classes only.
 
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angusjt
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:06 pm

Having flown PER-SYD regularly since I was little I have grown to call anything shorter than 4 hours "short haul", 4-8 hours "medium haul", 8-15 hours "long haul".
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:57 pm

32andBelow wrote:
September11 wrote:
For today, I guess this would be easier

Long-haul: International flights
Medium-haul: Cross-country flights
Short-haul: Domestic flights


So Seattle to Vancouver on a q400 is long haul?


meaningless classification! It takes longer to fly BOS-SEA or BOS-LAX than it does to fly BOS-KEF or BOS-LHR (and LOL and long haul on a Q400:-D )
 
IPFreely
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:08 pm

September11 wrote:
For today, I guess this would be easier

Long-haul: International flights
Medium-haul: Cross-country flights
Short-haul: Domestic flights


Cool. The CLE-YYZ flight I once took was long-haul. If I ever fly that route again I'll hold out for a seat that turns into a lie-flat bed.

Tucker1 wrote:
Why does this matter?


It doesn't matter in the real wold but this is a.net.where these things are critical to some posters. And the "Is EWR a New York City airport and what parts of Manhattan can access it" debates are getting repetitive. As are the "This airline is a LCC" vs. "No, it's a ULCC" debates. So why not argue over the exact definition of short vs. medium vs. long haul?
 
jb1087xna
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:09 pm

Drucocu wrote:
(plus my personal opinion that everybody who demands a personal screen for less than 12 hours is a whiny female dog. Bring your own and plug it in)


What do you say to the whiny female dogs who don't have a power outlet at their seat?
 
IPFreely
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:10 pm

jb1087xna wrote:
What do you say to the whiny female dogs who don't have a power outlet at their seat?


Learn to read and buy a book?
 
UPNYGuy
Posts: 312
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:13 pm

32andBelow wrote:
September11 wrote:
For today, I guess this would be easier

Long-haul: International flights
Medium-haul: Cross-country flights
Short-haul: Domestic flights

So Seattle to Vancouver on a q400 is long haul?


Or Hartford to Toronto on a 1900D lol
 
LGAviation
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:36 pm

Over here in Europe, we rarely ever see flights above 12 or 13 hours (out of my more than 200 international flights, there was one above fourteen and that was a flight between Australia and the Middle East) and personally I've always lived by even shorter standards.

0-2 Short-haul (Eurodomestic/within Central Europe)
2-5 Short/Medium-haul
5-9 Medium/Longhaul (Middle East/East Coast from where I live)
9-12 Longhaul
12+ ULH
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Caryjack
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:59 pm

I think the classification should be based on distance, not time. Classifications have been posted here (Stitch I think) such that:

Group A is less than 5,000 mi.
Group B is less than 8,000 mi
Group C is more than 8,000 mi

These don't translate into Short Haul, Med Haul, etc. but it's a good starting point.
 
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September11
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:29 am

JFK-LHR flight on British Airways Concorde... I'm unsure about that one
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ltbewr
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Re: Flight duration classifications

Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:19 pm

To me, from an Eastern USA (NYC metro) perspective on a non-stop flight:
Short Haul is up to 3 hours (Eastern USA to mid-USA, Eastern Canada, Caribbean),
Medium as 3-7 hours Eastern USA to Western States, Mid to Western Canada, Mexico, Central America, northern South America, Hawaii, Alaska),
Long haul 7 to 12 hours (Europe, most of South America),
ULH 12 hours plus, (Asia, Australia, most of Africa)
Or to put it another way, up to 3 hours - no food needed, Medium, a light meal or snack should be needed, Long haul, usually 2 meals needed, ULH 3 meals needed.

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