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Aviano789
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Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 5:54 pm

Two years ago, on a vacation trip to Southern Italy the return leg of our flight from LIRN to EDDF was cancelled without prior notice, resulting in missing our connection to JFK, and then forcing us to rebook our flight on a different carrier via EGLL arriving home two days later than scheduled.

We demanded a full refund for the leg of the flight that was abruptly cancelled and addition compensation pursuant to EC 261 air passenger protection law.

Initially our credit card company issued us a credit for the segment that was canceled but reverse the credit after the Carrier objected. To this day that Carrier continued to ignore all of our letters and phone calls.
Last edited by Aviano789 on Tue May 22, 2018 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 6:01 pm

I know people that have gotten EU conpensation.
 
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andrefranca
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 6:01 pm

Aviano789 wrote:
Two years ago, on a vacation trip to Southern Italy the return leg of our flight from LIRN to EDDF was cancelled without prior notice, resulting in missing our connection to JFK, and then forcing us to rebook our flight on a different carrier via EGLL arriving home two days later than scheduled.

We demanded a full refund for the leg of the flight that was abruptly cancelled and addition compensation pursuant to EC 261 air passenger protection law.

Initially our credit card company issued us a credit for the segment that was canceled but reverse the credit after the Carrier objected. To this day that Carrier continued to ignore all of our letters and phone calls.



In Brazil we no longer argue with the airlines anymore, we just sue ASAP! I was caught by Air France 2014 pilots strike that left me almost 5 days stranded in french guyana without any compensation or expenses paid, back home I sued and won 8K euros, my tickets price was 660 euros.
 
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Polot
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 6:02 pm

The law needs significantly more teeth punishing carriers that are not prompt. Most airlines just try to stall hoping that you will give up.
 
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Loew
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 6:05 pm

Absolutely. Regulation 261/2004 has entered into force on 17th february 2005. When a EU regulation comes into force, it overrides all national laws dealing with the same subject matter and subsequent national legislation must be consistent with and made in the light of the regulation.

Anyone who was not provided compensation and assistance according with mentioned regulation should sue.
 
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Polot
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 6:11 pm

Loew wrote:

Anyone who was not provided compensation and assistance according with mentioned regulation should sue.

That is much easier said than done when talking about a law that deals with international travelers. If you want to sue you have to sue them in the EU courts...and not everyone that gets affected by the regulation lives in the EU. Obviously there are EU businesses that do this for you but many pax don’t know that. The airlines all know and abuse this situation (along with many passengers lack of knowledge about the regulation).
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 6:20 pm

I have received compo twice fom BA.

One was a 24 hour delay due to a broken 767 altimeter in Cyprus, they provided hotel and food in addtion. The other was Verona to LGW, return 320 late incoming to Verona, had returned to gate at LGW due to a tech issue. In both cases the compo paid a large proportion of our holiday costs.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 6:22 pm

andrefranca wrote:
Aviano789 wrote:
Two years ago, on a vacation trip to Southern Italy the return leg of our flight from LIRN to EDDF was cancelled without prior notice, resulting in missing our connection to JFK, and then forcing us to rebook our flight on a different carrier via EGLL arriving home two days later than scheduled.

We demanded a full refund for the leg of the flight that was abruptly cancelled and addition compensation pursuant to EC 261 air passenger protection law.

Initially our credit card company issued us a credit for the segment that was canceled but reverse the credit after the Carrier objected. To this day that Carrier continued to ignore all of our letters and phone calls.



In Brazil we no longer argue with the airlines anymore, we just sue ASAP! I was caught by Air France 2014 pilots strike that left me almost 5 days stranded in french guyana without any compensation or expenses paid, back home I sued and won 8K euros, my tickets price was 660 euros.


Ticket price is irrelevant in why this exists. The point is being stuck somewhere can be very expensive. Especially places like New York, Tokyo, London, or Iceland days delay for a family can add up very quickly. Plus people miss work besides your lost income depending on your employer that can be very rough.
 
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Finn350
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 6:52 pm

Several years ago I received compensation for voluntarily being re-routed MUC-FRA-HEL instead of the original routing MUC-HEL due to overbooking. The only problem was that it took some minutes for the LH service agents to locate 3 x 200 EUR cash at MUC airport (there were three of us being re-routed). In the end our flight arrived less than 30 minutes later in HEL than the original flight.
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 6:54 pm

Lots of info, templates, online checkers etc. here
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/trave ... ancelrules
Down with that sort of thing!
 
B777LRF
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Re: Is the EU law to protect air passenger known as Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 enacted by European Parliament is ever e

Tue May 22, 2018 7:02 pm

It very much works, so much so airlines are continually whinging and pleading for a revision to the rules.

StTim wrote:
The issue is that it must be the airlines fault.

If there was a strike - or adverse weather, etc then it doesn't apply.


That is not entirely correct. The rule is that the airline must foresee certain anomalies to their operation, including adverse weather and industrial action, and take necessary action to mitigate those risks. If they fail to do so, they're liable. This is what really irks the airlines - if for example the de-icing operators at an airport runs out of fluid during the winter, even if they're contractors, the airline is liable to pay EU261 compensation. If the ILS system breaks down causing slot restrictions and the ensuing delays/cancellations, the airline is liable.

Fact of the matter is, however, that for decades the airlines have been stuffing the passengers big time. The pendulum has now swung very much in the opposite direction, and will probably reach an equilibrium at some point. But the days when airlines could cancel flights willy-nilly, and/or strand passengers for days without compensation or due care, are gone in the EU.
Signature. You just read one.
 
jubguy3
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 7:05 pm

Will airlines prevent you from flying with them again or mistreat you if you sue and collect?
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 7:31 pm

Aviano789 wrote:
Initially our credit card company issued us a credit for the segment that was canceled but reverse the credit after the Carrier objected. To this day that Carrier continued to ignore all of our letters and phone calls.


Just sue. Or hire one of the thousands of firms that offer their full service in exchange of a 25% of the compensation. Both breath and butter for European passengers. Soon not for Brits, I guess :D

jubguy3 wrote:
Will airlines prevent you from flying with them again or mistreat you if you sue and collect?


If they want to be sued again, they might.

Seriously, no.
 
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DominikR83
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 7:39 pm

No,usually not.
My parents had several fights with german leisure carrier condor in the past. Condor never reacted to their letters,even when they came from a lawyer.SO my parents sued them already three times and they alwys won and consor had to pay.But until now they are not on any official and hidden list which prevents them from flying with condor again.
DOn`t know if any other airlines do so.
 
787Driver
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 7:44 pm

Yep I even managed to make Ryanair pay by using a third party service that took care of my case for a small % of my compensation. Felt fantastic to make Ryanair pay which they initially refused to do
 
OGLOBAL
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 7:56 pm

andrefranca wrote:
Aviano789 wrote:
Two years ago, on a vacation trip to Southern Italy the return leg of our flight from LIRN to EDDF was cancelled without prior notice, resulting in missing our connection to JFK, and then forcing us to rebook our flight on a different carrier via EGLL arriving home two days later than scheduled.

We demanded a full refund for the leg of the flight that was abruptly cancelled and addition compensation pursuant to EC 261 air passenger protection law.

Initially our credit card company issued us a credit for the segment that was canceled but reverse the credit after the Carrier objected. To this day that Carrier continued to ignore all of our letters and phone calls.



In Brazil we no longer argue with the airlines anymore, we just sue ASAP! I was caught by Air France 2014 pilots strike that left me almost 5 days stranded in french guyana without any compensation or expenses paid, back home I sued and won 8K euros, my tickets price was 660 euros.



Really but how do you sue ? because Latam lost my luggage for 5 days and all they offered was 50 usd
and Avianca Brazil lost mine too for 4 days and they are not even responding anymore
 
TATLTALE
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 8:39 pm

There is a good deal of confusion about the law/regulation, so it helps to have some background.
1) It applies to all airlines who are registered in the EU, as well as to any portion of a ticket including an EU destination (so even AC YUL-CDG would come under the regulation). It does not apply outside of these parameters, so Latam or Avianca wouldn't be effected, unless the portion of the journey included an EU point.
2) It includes derogations for certain areas (I believe extra-continental territories for some, e.g. the French DOMTOM) and exceptions for certain circumstances, notably weather events such as the major terror attack at BRU.
3) Airlines must inform you, but they don't need to do it terribly visibly: it is typically up to the passenger to ask for compensation pursuant to EU regulation 261 (there are others). This includes all reasonable costs incurred en route, e.g. for a delay at a hub, as well as defined compensation for overall delay-to-destination (typically in 3h, 6h and 12+h tranches), and denied boarding/cancellation. E.g. I received 600$ from AZ based on a 30h delay in a SFO-LAX-FCO ticket, as well as a (mediocre) hotel in LAX for one night and some dining vouchers: the LAXFCO leg was delayed due to an medical issue on the inbound flight (and those passengers wouldn't be entitled to compensation, although they would be entitled to hotel/food voucher support).
4) Many airlines outsource the compensation component to third partie vendors. Compensation can take a long time, but must per law come in the form of a check, i.e. not in some sort of credit for future travel on the carrier (which is often what US carriers try to do, per practice for non-EU delays and such).
Oh stewardess, I speak jive
 
SCQ83
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 22, 2018 8:45 pm

TATLTALE wrote:
1) It applies to all airlines who are registered in the EU, as well as to any portion of a ticket including an EU destination (so even AC YUL-CDG would come under the regulation). It does not apply outside of these parameters, so Latam or Avianca wouldn't be effected, unless the portion of the journey included an EU point.


A non-EU carrier applies if you are departing the EU, not the other way around. So:

Air France CDG-YUL: yes
Air France YUL-CDG: yes
Air Canada CDG-YUL: yes
Air Canada YUL-CDG: no right for compensation
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 2:26 am

TATLTALE wrote:
not in some sort of credit for future travel on the carrier (which is often what US carriers try to do, per practice for non-EU delays and such).


What makes you think US carriers commonly provide *any* kind of credit or compensation for delays?
Unless we're talking about a missed connection involving an overnight stay somewhere not your origin or destination, compensation is pretty unlikely!
 
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conaly
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 8:11 am

Too often airlines just ignore the law or try to get around by offering vouchers and stuff like that. Last year my Eurowings-flight was cancelled, no alternative was given, so I took a rental car. Afterwards I wanted my money. 250€ compensation and another 250€ for the car and the fuel. At first Eurowings didn't respond at all. After some phone calls and another mail they denied every claim. After another mail they offered a 50€ voucher, which I refused. After my last mail they at least paid the 250€ compensation, but refused to pay for the car. So I had to enforce that one with the help of a lawyer. The case ended in court, I did win the case so Eurowings had to pay for the car, the fuel, all costs for the lawyer and interest rate since the day I wrote my first letter.

Currently I have a similar situation with Etihad. But this time I won't argue with them for anything. I've sent the letter, put in a deadline and if I don't see a payment one day after deadline, I'll go straight to my lawyer again.
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Loew
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 10:16 am

SCQ83 wrote:
TATLTALE wrote:
1) It applies to all airlines who are registered in the EU, as well as to any portion of a ticket including an EU destination (so even AC YUL-CDG would come under the regulation). It does not apply outside of these parameters, so Latam or Avianca wouldn't be effected, unless the portion of the journey included an EU point.


A non-EU carrier applies if you are departing the EU, not the other way around. So:

Air France CDG-YUL: yes
Air France YUL-CDG: yes
Air Canada CDG-YUL: yes
Air Canada YUL-CDG: no right for compensation


That is correct, and many people are not aware of this fact, that regulation applies only to EU carriers, when departing from a non EU country to EU country.

1. This Regulation shall apply:

(a) to passengers departing from an airport located in the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies;

(b) to passengers departing from an airport located in a third country to an airport situated in the territory of a Member State to which the Treaty applies, unless they received benefits or compensation and were given assistance in that third country, if the operating air carrier of the flight concerned is a Community carrier.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 32004R0261
 
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Loew
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 10:22 am

conaly wrote:
Too often airlines just ignore the law or try to get around by offering vouchers and stuff like that. Last year my Eurowings-flight was cancelled, no alternative was given, so I took a rental car. Afterwards I wanted my money. 250€ compensation and another 250€ for the car and the fuel. At first Eurowings didn't respond at all. After some phone calls and another mail they denied every claim. After another mail they offered a 50€ voucher, which I refused. After my last mail they at least paid the 250€ compensation, but refused to pay for the car. So I had to enforce that one with the help of a lawyer. The case ended in court, I did win the case so Eurowings had to pay for the car, the fuel, all costs for the lawyer and interest rate since the day I wrote my first letter.

Currently I have a similar situation with Etihad. But this time I won't argue with them for anything. I've sent the letter, put in a deadline and if I don't see a payment one day after deadline, I'll go straight to my lawyer again.


As for Etihad, it is important whether you were departing tfrom non EU country or from EU country, as regulation 261/2004 does not apply to non EU carriers operating flights from non EU country to EU country. Also as Etihad is probably a legal person incorporated outside of EU, you might be required to sue Etihad in the country they are incorporated in, as this is the general rule.
 
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Loew
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 10:23 am

Loew wrote:
conaly wrote:
Too often airlines just ignore the law or try to get around by offering vouchers and stuff like that. Last year my Eurowings-flight was cancelled, no alternative was given, so I took a rental car. Afterwards I wanted my money. 250€ compensation and another 250€ for the car and the fuel. At first Eurowings didn't respond at all. After some phone calls and another mail they denied every claim. After another mail they offered a 50€ voucher, which I refused. After my last mail they at least paid the 250€ compensation, but refused to pay for the car. So I had to enforce that one with the help of a lawyer. The case ended in court, I did win the case so Eurowings had to pay for the car, the fuel, all costs for the lawyer and interest rate since the day I wrote my first letter.

Currently I have a similar situation with Etihad. But this time I won't argue with them for anything. I've sent the letter, put in a deadline and if I don't see a payment one day after deadline, I'll go straight to my lawyer again.


As for Etihad, it is important whether you were departing from non EU country or from EU country, as regulation 261/2004 does not apply to non EU carriers operating flights from non EU country to EU country. Also as Etihad is probably a legal person incorporated outside of EU, you might be required to sue Etihad in the country they are incorporated in, as this is the general rule.
 
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conaly
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 11:57 am

The flight was FRA-AUH-KTM, where the first leg was delayed by about 14 hours and so the arrival at the destination was around 20 hours late. In this case I am quite sure they do own me compensation.

As they are flying to Germany, I will sue them in Germany if necessary. If they don't respond to that, then they can expect one of their planes to be pawned once it lands in Germany.
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Jayafe
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 1:00 pm

conaly wrote:
...Currently I have a similar situation with Etihad. But this time I won't argue with them for anything. I've sent the letter, put in a deadline and if I don't see a payment one day after deadline, I'll go straight to my lawyer again.


I tried with EY before, but as said above this regulation doesnt apply. Got a good x0.000 miles though.
 
Aviano789
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 2:07 pm

conaly wrote:
Too often airlines just ignore the law or try to get around by offering vouchers and stuff like that. Last year my Eurowings-flight was cancelled, no alternative was given, so I took a rental car. Afterwards I wanted my money. 250€ compensation and another 250€ for the car and the fuel. At first Eurowings didn't respond at all. After some phone calls and another mail they denied every claim. After another mail they offered a 50€ voucher, which I refused. After my last mail they at least paid the 250€ compensation, but refused to pay for the car. So I had to enforce that one with the help of a lawyer. The case ended in court, I did win the case so Eurowings had to pay for the car, the fuel, all costs for the lawyer and interest rate since the day I wrote my first letter.

Currently I have a similar situation with Etihad. But this time I won't argue with them for anything. I've sent the letter, put in a deadline and if I don't see a payment one day after deadline, I'll go straight to my lawyer again.


My take on this is all the airlines operating under EC 261 rule/law have done their homework. They know most affected Pax will not pay $10,000.00 to $25,000.00 in the US to hire lawyer just to collect $3,000.00 or less.
However in our case, we are considering the Smalls Claim Court approach which we can claim a, maximum of $7,500. In most case I was told, the airline representatives never show up in court and default judgement will be automatically entered against the carrier, from there we can move to Lien any assets they might own in the US.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 2:16 pm

Jayafe wrote:
I tried with EY before, but as said above this regulation doesnt apply. Got a good x0.000 miles though.


his flight departed from the EU, so it is applicable.

conaly wrote:
The flight was FRA-AUH-KTM, where the first leg was delayed by about 14 hours and so the arrival at the destination was around 20 hours late. In this case I am quite sure they do own me compensation.

As they are flying to Germany, I will sue them in Germany if necessary. If they don't respond to that, then they can expect one of their planes to be pawned once it lands in Germany.


And they will do that. Just ask Ryanair, that got a 738 pawned for not reimbursing taxes for a no-show a couple of years back. Well, if memory serves me right they paid on the spot to avoid the aircraft being pawned.

Aviano789 wrote:
My take on this is all the airlines operating under EC 261 rule/law have done their homework. They know most affected Pax will not pay $10,000.00 to $25,000.00 in the US to hire lawyer just to collect $3,000.00 or less.
However in our case, we are considering the Smalls Claim Court approach which we can claim a, maximum of $7,500. In most case I was told, the airline representatives never show up in court and defaulted judgement will be automatically entered against the carrier, from there we can move to Lien any assets they might own in the US.


If he is European, that ain´t a problem. Bailiffs will glady take an airliner as a collateral if other assets are not within legal reach. If you are willing to forfeit 25 or 30%, it doesn´t cost anything and comes with no risk.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 3:02 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
I tried with EY before, but as said above this regulation doesnt apply. Got a good x0.000 miles though.


his flight departed from the EU, so it is applicable.


It didn't , hence the outcome ;)
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 3:48 pm

Jayafe wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
I tried with EY before, but as said above this regulation doesnt apply. Got a good x0.000 miles though.


his flight departed from the EU, so it is applicable.


It didn't , hence the outcome ;)


Ummm

conaly wrote:
The flight was FRA-AUH-KTM,


I am pretty sure Frankfurt is in Germany and Germany is in the EU.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 3:56 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

his flight departed from the EU, so it is applicable.


It didn't , hence the outcome ;)


Ummm

conaly wrote:
The flight was FRA-AUH-KTM,


I am pretty sure Frankfurt is in Germany and Germany is in the EU.

Best regards
Thomas


Are you assuming we are the same person or were in the same flight? :crackup:
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 3:57 pm

Jayafe wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:

It didn't , hence the outcome ;)


Ummm

conaly wrote:
The flight was FRA-AUH-KTM,


I am pretty sure Frankfurt is in Germany and Germany is in the EU.

Best regards
Thomas


Are you assuming we are the same person or were in the same flight? :crackup:


Since I wrote "his" And not "your", I guess I was aware you are different people.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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conaly
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Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 4:40 pm

Aviano789 wrote:
My take on this is all the airlines operating under EC 261 rule/law have done their homework. They know most affected Pax will not pay $10,000.00 to $25,000.00 in the US to hire lawyer just to collect $3,000.00 or less.


Well, I will, in Germany it's not that expensive. I'm not short on money, if I have to pay like a few hundred in advance I'm fine with that. That's what I did the last time (it was 190€ for court and lawyer-costs), so whatever. Even if it's a few thousand Euro I wouldn't hesitate.

Aviano789 wrote:
In most case I was told, the airline representatives never show up in court and default judgement will be automatically entered against the carrier, from there we can move to Lien any assets they might own in the US.


Actually, that's exactly what happened the last time: the lawyer sent a mail to the court to open a case and also told them the expected result, the court agreed to that as no representative of Eurowings showed up in court. That's actually what I'm hoping for Etihad, too, in case they ignore my claim. In this case I am quite willing to go through any instance until I get my money back or they will lose a plane.
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andrefranca
Posts: 904
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:10 am

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 23, 2018 9:43 pm

OGLOBAL wrote:
andrefranca wrote:
Aviano789 wrote:
Two years ago, on a vacation trip to Southern Italy the return leg of our flight from LIRN to EDDF was cancelled without prior notice, resulting in missing our connection to JFK, and then forcing us to rebook our flight on a different carrier via EGLL arriving home two days later than scheduled.

We demanded a full refund for the leg of the flight that was abruptly cancelled and addition compensation pursuant to EC 261 air passenger protection law.

Initially our credit card company issued us a credit for the segment that was canceled but reverse the credit after the Carrier objected. To this day that Carrier continued to ignore all of our letters and phone calls.



In Brazil we no longer argue with the airlines anymore, we just sue ASAP! I was caught by Air France 2014 pilots strike that left me almost 5 days stranded in french guyana without any compensation or expenses paid, back home I sued and won 8K euros, my tickets price was 660 euros.



Really but how do you sue ? because Latam lost my luggage for 5 days and all they offered was 50 usd
and Avianca Brazil lost mine too for 4 days and they are not even responding anymore


You need to go for the "small causes tribunal" (tribunal de pequenas causas), there with the proofs of course they teach you to build your case, then you wait them to call and book your hearing, the airlines will present their defense, then the judge will have the final say. If you win, the airlines deposit the amount set by the judge into your account.
 
OGLOBAL
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Thu May 24, 2018 6:14 am

andrefranca wrote:
OGLOBAL wrote:
andrefranca wrote:


In Brazil we no longer argue with the airlines anymore, we just sue ASAP! I was caught by Air France 2014 pilots strike that left me almost 5 days stranded in french guyana without any compensation or expenses paid, back home I sued and won 8K euros, my tickets price was 660 euros.



Really but how do you sue ? because Latam lost my luggage for 5 days and all they offered was 50 usd
and Avianca Brazil lost mine too for 4 days and they are not even responding anymore


You need to go for the "small causes tribunal" (tribunal de pequenas causas), there with the proofs of course they teach you to build your case, then you wait them to call and book your hearing, the airlines will present their defense, then the judge will have the final say. If you win, the airlines deposit the amount set by the judge into your account.



Thank you
unfortunately i don't live in brasil i was there for 3 weeks and in 3 of my flights my luggage got delayed
 
ei146
Posts: 314
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Fri May 25, 2018 10:09 am

Yes, it works.
A few months ago my niece was booked on a Ryanair flight from SXF to DUB. The flight was cancelled and she was rebooked to a different flight a few hours later, arriving ~5 hours later than planned. I suggested to use one of the many intermidiaries. But she filed her claim directly via a form on the Ryanair webpage. She was updated via e-mail on the status of her claim and got the money a few weeks later.
If you do not succeed on your own it is still a good idea to use one of the claim companies. They take some provision on success, but they know the law and the rules, have access to the flight data and know if its worth it to go to court.
 
max999
Posts: 1248
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Mon May 28, 2018 2:20 pm

What's the Brexit implication for the EC 261 air passenger protection law? Does it mean that the British carriers can get out of this rule?
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
Aviano789
Topic Author
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:00 pm

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Mon May 28, 2018 2:57 pm

max999 wrote:
What's the Brexit implication for the EC 261 air passenger protection law? Does it mean that the British carriers can get out of this rule?

Thats a very good question..
 
User avatar
XAM2175
Posts: 1156
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Mon May 28, 2018 5:43 pm

max999 wrote:
What's the Brexit implication for the EC 261 air passenger protection law? Does it mean that the British carriers can get out of this rule?


My (very vague) understanding is that since EC 261/2004 is an EU Regulation rather than a Directive, it is implemented in UK law by the general provisions of the European Communities Act 1972 and so will cease to have effect in the UK once the withdrawal formally commences.
(Directives, on the other hand, are generally implemented by specific UK legislation and so will remain in effect until said acts are specifically amended or voided, or superseded by the provisions of a new act or acts)

Obviously, this means that on "B-Day" the UK will cease to be recognised as part of the EU for the purposes of the Regulation, and so carriers operating on UK AOCs (of which the big two are BA and the non-Swiss and non-Austrian bits of U2) will find many of their flights outside the rules.

However, the following types of flights will still be protected by the Regulation:
    - Flights to and from the UK operated by EU carriers (including FR, unless they set up a UK subsidiary, and the non-UK bits of U2), and
    - Flights from the EU operated by carriers of any nationality.
 
max999
Posts: 1248
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Mon May 28, 2018 8:12 pm

XAM2175 wrote:
max999 wrote:
What's the Brexit implication for the EC 261 air passenger protection law? Does it mean that the British carriers can get out of this rule?


My (very vague) understanding is that since EC 261/2004 is an EU Regulation rather than a Directive, it is implemented in UK law by the general provisions of the European Communities Act 1972 and so will cease to have effect in the UK once the withdrawal formally commences.


[cynicism] BA wins and the British consumers lose! [/cynicism]
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
ubeema
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 29, 2018 6:23 pm

max999 wrote:
What's the Brexit implication for the EC 261 air passenger protection law? Does it mean that the British carriers can get out of this rule?

I could be wrong but I believe that will depend on the outcome of the “Great repeal bill” currently being worked on by UK MPs. The bill should 1) repeal 1972 European Communities Act/End power of ECJ in the UK, 2) Copy EU legislation into UK law, 3) Amend, repeal, and improve individual laws as necessary. If MPs failed to do all of that by B-Day then EC 261 could be in effect in the UK at least another year past March 2019.
 
ubeema
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Tue May 29, 2018 6:39 pm

Another nuance passenger should understand is that EC 261 is enforceable only against operating air carrier. If one purchase a round trip ticket from Air France (CDG-ATL on AF, ATL-CDG on DL) the return leg in this case will not be subject to EC261. Pointing this out because of the confusion that joint venture might cause.
 
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conaly
Posts: 421
Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 10:50 pm

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 30, 2018 7:42 am

ubeema wrote:
Another nuance passenger should understand is that EC 261 is enforceable only against operating air carrier. If one purchase a round trip ticket from Air France (CDG-ATL on AF, ATL-CDG on DL) the return leg in this case will not be subject to EC261. Pointing this out because of the confusion that joint venture might cause.


This is not always the case, at least not in Germany. In 2017 a court ruled, that even wet leased flights operated by another carrier do count as flights with the airline the passenger booked the flight with. So for example if I book a Eurowings-flight NUE-DUS, but it's operated by LG-Walter or Germanwings I can still blame Eurowings for any delay or cancellation.

Unfortunately this does not apply for code-sharing flights.
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User avatar
XAM2175
Posts: 1156
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed May 30, 2018 5:50 pm

conaly wrote:
ubeema wrote:
Another nuance passenger should understand is that EC 261 is enforceable only against operating air carrier...

In 2017 a court ruled, that even wet leased flights operated by another carrier do count as flights with the airline the passenger booked the flight with...
Unfortunately this does not apply for code-sharing flights.


Looking over the exact text of the Regulation:

Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council wrote:
Article 2
Definitions
For the purposes of this Regulation:
...
(b) "operating air carrier" means an air carrier that performs or intends to perform a flight under a contract with a passenger or on behalf of another person, legal or natural, having a contract with that passenger;
...
Article 3
Scope
...
5. This Regulation shall apply to any operating air carrier providing transport to passengers covered by paragraphs 1 and 2. Where an operating air carrier which has no contract with the passenger performs obligations under this Regulation, it shall be regarded as doing so on behalf of the person having a contract with that passenger.
...


(emphasis mine)

I think that's fairly clear that wet-leases and subsidiary carriers are included.

I would also have thought that the transference of responsibility in 3.5 would apply to code-shares, as the operating carrier has accepted the marketing carrier's code, but it does seem that general consensus is against this.

I have found a suggestion that a Dutch court did recently hold codeshares to be covered by the Regulation, but not much actual information.
 
Jack786
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:35 pm

Re: Is the EU law (EC) No 261 enacted by European Parliament in 2004 to protect Air Pax is ever enforceable?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:16 am

Yes, EU Regulation 261/2004 is enforced, a few years ago when I had a flight from JFK to Gatwick. My flight was delayed by 6 hours, after reading about my air passenger rights, I filed a claim by myself using a letter template available online (You can use this: https://goo.gl/H8JZ75), after a few weeks I got my compensation in my account.

It happens sometimes airlines don't give you compensation easily, many airlines ignore phone calls and letters regarding the compensation, In that case, you can use air passenger portals available online they fight your case on no win no fee basis, so if you don't want to take hassle of claiming compensation you can contact them or if you don't want to give commission you can claim by yourself by writing a letter to airline.
 

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