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neomax
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Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:38 pm

I never had the fun of flying into Kai Tak, but I always wondered, for those who did, is DCA the closest thing to it? The approach seems to have a pretty similar right bank all the way down down to the threshold. The terrain is pretty different as well I would imagine, I guess the main difference would be that at Kai Tak, often times you would buzz rooftops of Kowloon city by maybe a hundred feet or two where in DCA, its just water and grass. But regardless, the approach seems pretty similar doesn't it? For those who have been on both, how do they compare? I would imagine DCA is the only airport of its size in the US to not have a straight in approach for the last segment of the landing which makes it pretty unique.
 
Runway28L
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:59 pm

RWY 31 visual at LGA also.
 
dopplerd
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:05 pm

22L into MDW has a bit of a late turn.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:11 pm

DCA is definitely the closest to the old HKG at Kowloon, as both require precise flying of the approach.

Kowloon is obvious why, and DCA has restricted airspace so a narrow corridor has to be flown on approach. Since 9/11 the airspace round Washington is buttoned up tight.
 
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neomax
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:13 pm

Interesting, what causes this at LGA and MDW?
 
727LOVER
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:14 pm

What about the JFK approaches onto the 13s? It's called CARNISE or something.
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
f35
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:16 pm

Stapleton is the most similar airport to Kai Tak.
 
Guillaume787
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:52 pm

I’d say TGU is the closest to Kai Tak regarding low-altitude 45-degree turns and steep banks on final approach. Plus one of the shortest runways for an international airport makes TGU a very challenging airport to land.

A couple of videos:
https://youtu.be/v_z5HtME9n8

https://youtu.be/cmZKcwrzKvo
 
bob75013
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:54 pm

f35 wrote:
Stapleton is the most similar airport to Kai Tak.


and like Kai Tak you can't fly there any more ...
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:06 pm

I think Sitka Alaska is about the closest. Runway surrounded by water and a relatively tight final due to terrain and the mountains. Not quite as bad as Kai Tak, but pretty close.
 
bigb
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:13 pm

Guillaume787 wrote:
I’d say TGU is the closest to Kai Tak regarding low-altitude 45-degree turns and steep banks on final approach. Plus one of the shortest runways for an international airport makes TGU a very challenging airport to land.

A couple of videos:
https://youtu.be/v_z5HtME9n8

https://youtu.be/cmZKcwrzKvo


He said in the US
 
Guillaume787
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:14 pm

bigb wrote:
Guillaume787 wrote:
I’d say TGU is the closest to Kai Tak regarding low-altitude 45-degree turns and steep banks on final approach. Plus one of the shortest runways for an international airport makes TGU a very challenging airport to land.

A couple of videos:
https://youtu.be/v_z5HtME9n8

https://youtu.be/cmZKcwrzKvo


He said in the US


Missed that! Apologies!
 
DaveFly
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:17 pm

I’ve heard SAN described as flying through midtown Manhattan for a landing in Central Park. When I first landed in San Diego, I knew it was a rigorous approach. And it was quite an eye-opener to see nearby buildings that were higher than the approach path.
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as739x
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:19 pm

SFO approach to runway 1R/1L
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Chugach
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:31 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
I think Sitka Alaska is about the closest. Runway surrounded by water and a relatively tight final due to terrain and the mountains. Not quite as bad as Kai Tak, but pretty close.


In my experience JNU, ADQ, DUT, and PSG are all more challenging than SIT. No Alaskan airport is going to compete with the urbanity of a HKG approach though. SAN is about the closest one I can think of, in terms of buzzing the buildings on final.
 
727LOVER
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:36 pm

bob75013 wrote:
f35 wrote:
Stapleton is the most similar airport to Kai Tak.


and like Kai Tak you can't fly there any more ...


Yeah...ummm.....that's what he meant. He was making a HAHA :duck:
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:38 pm

Chugach wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I think Sitka Alaska is about the closest. Runway surrounded by water and a relatively tight final due to terrain and the mountains. Not quite as bad as Kai Tak, but pretty close.


In my experience JNU, ADQ, DUT, and PSG are all more challenging than SIT. No Alaskan airport is going to compete with the urbanity of a HKG approach though. SAN is about the closest one I can think of, in terms of buzzing the buildings on final.


I was thinking tight turns on final with approach over water and terrain warnings going off in the flight deck. There are a few in Alaska. JNU is a challenging approach but not as bad with the RNAV approaches
 
bfitzflyer
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:08 pm

SAN is what I consider closest. Seems like I always approach adjacent to downtown SD.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:26 pm

Kai Tak had it all; hard approach, dense city scenery and flying relatively close to it. You can really see the aircraft sink below the landscape at SAN, you don’t see that in many places.
 
EWRandMDW
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:58 pm

neomax wrote:
Interesting, what causes this at LGA and MDW?


I recall that for LGA planes would descend over Flushing Meadows Park and then over Flushing they'd make a sharp left to the runway. You had Shea Stadium to contend with and Flushing Bay. Also for a long time there was a small private field, Flushing Airport, to avoid. I think it was finally closed in late 70s, maybe early 80s.

As for MDW, planes would turn north over the south side and then right around 63rd St begin making a sharp left to runway 22L. Many times arriving aircraft would race the Midway-bound Orange line trains.

For both LGA and MDW the planes were quite low when the turns were made.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 pm

neomax wrote:
Interesting, what causes this at LGA and MDW?


As far as LGA is concerned, straight-in approaches to 31 would interfere with JFK arrivals or departures.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:49 pm

727LOVER wrote:
What about the JFK approaches onto the 13s? It's called CARNISE or something.


Canarsie Visuals is what they are called. They’ve mostly been replaced by RNAV visuals or RNAV RNP approaches.
 
e38
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:03 pm

with reference to what some commenters above have described as "sharp turn at low altitude," this is not done quite as much anymore at Chicago Midway airport (KMDW) with the recent certification of the RNAV (RNP) and RNAV (GPS) approaches to Runways 22 L and R.

Also, at San Diego (KSAN), there is no turn when flying an approach to Runway 27. All the approaches are "straight-in." What makes these approaches somewhat unusual is that due to obstacles near the approach end of Runway 27 (the building in downtown San Diego and a parking garage near the approach end of the runway), the FAA was not able to certify an ILS approach. The RNAV approaches and LOC approaches to Runway 27 use a 3.5 degree glideslope from the FAF to the runway, not the normal 3.0 degree glideslope of an ILS. This does not necessarily make the approach to Runway 27 at San Diego particularly challenging or hazardous, but it does require attention by the pilot to ensure a stabilized approach.

e38
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:32 pm

How did MKC compare?
 
deebee278
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:58 pm

f35 wrote:
Stapleton is the most similar airport to Kai Tak.

Huh?
 
deebee278
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:09 pm

bfitzflyer wrote:
SAN is what I consider closest. Seems like I always approach adjacent to downtown SD.


I second that, even though it's a straight-in approach. In my youth, I remember eating at a fancy restaurant on the hill not far east of the airport and a little north of of the RW27 final approach course. We had a commanding view of the airport, including the VASI (visual glide slope). It showed red and white, right on glideslope! The restaurant is still there.
 
e38
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:56 pm

Quoting f35 (Reply # 7), "Stapleton is the most similar airport to Kai Tak."

the two airports were not even the slightest bit similar.

Perhaps you are thinking of another airport.

e38
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:29 am

I don't think there is any equivalent of Kai Tak now, and may never have been in the past.

As a passenger to simultaneously feel the banking maneuver and also visually see the mountain, then the sudden burst of super urban density - the sensation that you are looking directly into residential high rise windows, and see faces, then come down in a cross wind onto a runway that seemed like a peninsula into the ocean, your window view of nothing but water... sweet.

To do so in a light aircraft is one thing, to be doing so in the largest aircraft flying at the time (DC10, 747), was simply amazing.

On the ground, in the flight path was breathtaking as an Av enthusiast, the aircraft seeming skimming the roof tops, undercarriage in full, glorious view; having said that - the era of really loud engines meant this constant audio barrage wasn't quite the treat for residents.

I think my last flight into Kai Tak was 1989. I miss it everyday, and on reflection, I realize that night time arrivals were... boring!
 
EWRamp
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:45 am

EWR Rwy 29 landings have a hard right turn just before landing. Granted landing on that runway doesn't happen too often, usually only during high winds
 
tmu101
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:02 am

EWRamp wrote:
EWR Rwy 29 landings have a hard right turn just before landing. Granted landing on that runway doesn't happen too often, usually only during high winds


My favorite landing at EWR. :-) I've only landed on 29 once but it was FUN. My brother has landed on it many times and I often get videos from him when he does land on it. I did it on a regional jet but I'd imagine doing it on a 747 must be extra special.

I have landed on 11 twice though - not nearly as fun but a unique perspective nonetheless (compared to landing on the 22s and the 4s).
 
desertjets
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:20 pm

I never really thought the River Visual to rwy 19 at DCA was all that crazy of an approach. It requires a fairly precise track but there aren't any hugely radical direction changes... especially if we are using the old IGS approach to rwy 13 at Kai Tak.
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jetwet1
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:19 pm

deebee278 wrote:
f35 wrote:
Stapleton is the most similar airport to Kai Tak.

Huh?


e38 wrote:
Quoting f35 (Reply # 7), "Stapleton is the most similar airport to Kai Tak."

the two airports were not even the slightest bit similar.

Perhaps you are thinking of another airport.

e38



You guys are killing me.....

Both are closed, both are being redeveloped, so yes, they are very similar.

Take a look.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/kai+ ... a=!3m1!1e3
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sysco ... 04.8795331


And i'm with some of the others on here, though I only flew into Kai Tak as a kid, I would say SAN is the closest, though having the "pleasure" of flying into TGU, yeah, that's the winner.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:38 am

jetwet1 wrote:
deebee278 wrote:
f35 wrote:
Stapleton is the most similar airport to Kai Tak.

Huh?


e38 wrote:
Quoting f35 (Reply # 7), "Stapleton is the most similar airport to Kai Tak."

the two airports were not even the slightest bit similar.

Perhaps you are thinking of another airport.

e38



You guys are killing me.....

Both are closed, both are being redeveloped, so yes, they are very similar.


I still don't get it.

Lots of airports are closed and have been redeveloped. Is that the criteria for this "joke"? Hundreds of historical US airports would be equally similar. Here's a list to start you off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_d ... ted_States

Was that really the joke?
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deebee278
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:01 pm

Stapleton Airport was on flat land well east of the Rocky Mountains, no tricky approaches involved. The 'new' airport is even further away from any terrain than the old KDEN. The only problem with either the old (closed) airport and any other airport in the area is with the airport elevation and taking off on a hot July day.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:30 pm

spacecadet wrote:

I still don't get it.

Lots of airports are closed and have been redeveloped. Is that the criteria for this "joke"?
Was that really the joke?


Pretty much yeah, at least that's what I took from it.
 
DaveFly
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:22 pm

tmu101 wrote:
EWRamp wrote:
EWR Rwy 29 landings have a hard right turn just before landing. Granted landing on that runway doesn't happen too often, usually only during high winds


My favorite landing at EWR. :-) I've only landed on 29 once but it was FUN. My brother has landed on it many times and I often get videos from him when he does land on it. I did it on a regional jet but I'd imagine doing it on a 747 must be extra special.


I landed on 29 in a 747. Here’s the video, but the quality isn’t good. When I noticed the unusual approach, I flipped out the iPhone.
https://youtu.be/dZY-A0hExkc
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fry530
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:29 am

Maybe not in terms of aircraft or scenery, but I would think in terms of challenging approaches places like ASE and EGE might compare? I’ve never had the pleasure of landing at either, but I know they have some pretty crazy approaches and take offs.

SAN seems to be the most similar, since they at least get widebodies, but does anything really compare to Kai Tak?
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:57 am

I flew the river visual in a 737 sim and it was a challenging, but very fun, approach. I never tried it before and had to do a go-around on the first attempt. I was surprised to see how close it was to DC and the Pentagon and how youre even below (or close to) the top of the Washington Monument.
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:15 am

f35 wrote:
Stapleton is the most similar airport to Kai Tak.


But it was closed down even before Kai Taj. I think the person who started the thread was talking about airports that are still operating.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:05 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
I think Sitka Alaska is about the closest. Runway surrounded by water and a relatively tight final due to terrain and the mountains. Not quite as bad as Kai Tak, but pretty close.


Speaking of Alaska, the "Gastineau Channel" RNAV approach into JNU runway 26 is similar to Kai Tak. I recently learned of this approach.
 
evank516
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:58 pm

727LOVER wrote:
What about the JFK approaches onto the 13s? It's called CARNISE or something.


The Canarsie VOR to runway 13L?

LGA has a pretty tight approach to runway 13 in VFR conditions in the rare occasion that it's used for landings, they fly up the hudson, then turn around over the Bronx and essentially fly down the east river and turn final just west of Rikers Island. I hear that approach is notorious for go arounds.
 
e38
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:19 pm

evank516, what you described is basically an approach to LGA Runway 22, circle to land Runway 13.
It is not a particularly difficult approach if it is properly planned and the aircraft is stabilized on approach.

e38
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:43 pm

Runway28L wrote:
RWY 31 visual at LGA also.


Also the 13L approach into JFK, where one flies a 40 heading over Sandy Hook, past CUNY Kingsborough, and the Shore Parkway, and then turns to a 90 heading over Aqueduct Racetrack, and then finally a 121 heading less than 2 miles from landing.

Also, at EWR, you have the circle 29 (from 4 or 22) approach that has the final heading less than 2 miles before landing. The 4 circle 29 (Bridge Visual) is even more challenging. That was actually in use on some days last winter (although some planes chose to use the ILS 4R).
 
Woodreau
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Re: Is DCA the closest thing to Kai Tak in the US?

Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:07 pm

There is also the RNAV visual to 19L/19R in Las Vegas. The base to final turn happens below 1000ft AGL. You’re pointed at the strip and as you turn final the pax on the right side of the plane get a view of the strip. Before the base to final turn the pax on the left side of the plane are seeing the Las Vegas airport go by.

the River visual 19, Expressway Visual 31, Canarsie Visual 13, and the Las Vegas RNAV visual 19L/19R are some of my favorite approaches.
One other approach I like is the DCA ILS 1 with the circle to land 33. On short final you turn right off the localizer and remain over the Potomac then turn left to land on 33. There is no trying to get a greaser on 33 and floating halfway down the runway. You need to get the wheels on deck right on the markers to get the plane stopped before you run out of runway.

I’ve flown the Aspen LOC/DME 15 and the San Diego LOC27. Neither are particularly challenging as it’s just a straight in approach. There are nonstandard considerations. For both it’s the nonstandard glide path, for aspen it’s 4.55 degrees (not as extreme as London City) SAN Diego is a 3.5 degree glide path.

Aspen does have that missed approach orocedure that requires you to change the localizer frequency to track it outbound for the missed approach. If for any reason you have to go around after the missed approach point, then it’s now considered an emergency maneuver. And if you have an engine failure inside the FAF, there is no possibility of go around and the preferred option is to make the runway at any cost because the aircraft does not have the performance to clear terrain surrounding the airport on one engine after crossing the FAF (you cross the FAF at 15,000ft.)

The thing I like about Aspen is that when you’re taking off (runway 33) tower will call out traffic landing on 15. They’ve got their landing lights on, so you spot them easily. When you call traffic in sight, tower clears you for takeoff and off you go playing airplane chicken, which the airplane taking off always loses (turning right to heading 340 right after takeoff and then left to 270 to fly under the landing traffic as he crosses overhead)

If you are in Rosslyn, when DCA is landing 19, you can see the aircraft appear to be “weaving” between the buildings, it’s just an optical illusion as the plane is entirely over the river the whole time, but you’ll see the planes go behind the buildings in that part of town and it looks like the plane is awfully close to the buildings.
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