All Fifth Freedom Traffic on the North Atlantic -- Ever!

cedarjet · Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:25 am

Hello. I am compiling a list of all Fifth Freedom operators on the North Atlantic, in history. I'll kick off with the ones I know about, and would love anyone to contribute their own memories. Here we go.

CURRENT
LHR-EWR Air-India 787
FRA-JFK Singapore Airlines A380 (777 in winter I think)
ATH-EWR Emirates 777
CDG-LAX Air Tahiti Nui A340

HISTORIC
LHR-JFK Kuwait EQV (747, A340, 777 etc)
LHR-JFK El Al 747
LHR-JFK Alitalia DC-8
LHR-JFK Air-India 747
LHR-ORD Air-India 747
LHR-YYZ Air-India 777
CDG-LAX Air-India 747
LGW-JFK Sabena 747
MAN-JFK PIA 747, 777
AMS-JFK Singapore Airlines 747
AMS-JFK Royal Jordanian L1011, 747
AMS-JFK TAROM Il-62, 707
AMS-ORD TAROM Il-62, 707
ORY-JFK Middle East Airlines 747
MXP-JFK Emirates A380
HAM-JFK Emirates 777

I think I'm only scratching the surface. Some you suggest will make me slap my forehead -- why didn't I think of that? OK go!

DominoxX · Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:27 am

JFK-LHR Qantas 707

jjs1491 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:36 am

cedarjet wrote:
Hello. I am compiling a list of all Fifth Freedom operators on the North Atlantic, in history. I'll kick off with the ones I know about, and would love anyone to contribute their own memories. Here we go.

CURRENT
LHR-EWR Air-India 787
FRA-JFK Singapore Airlines A380 (777 in winter I think)
ATH-EWR Emirates 777
CDG-LAX Air Tahiti Nui A340

HISTORIC
LHR-JFK Kuwait EQV (747, A340, 777 etc)
LHR-JFK El Al 747
LHR-JFK Alitalia DC-8
LHR-JFK Air-India 747
LHR-ORD Air-India 747
LHR-YYZ Air-India 777
CDG-LAX Air-India 747
LGW-JFK Sabena 747
MAN-JFK PIA 747, 777
AMS-JFK Singapore Airlines 747
AMS-JFK Royal Jordanian L1011, 747
AMS-JFK TAROM Il-62, 707
AMS-ORD TAROM Il-62, 707
ORY-JFK Middle East Airlines 747
MXP-JFK Emirates A380
HAM-JFK Emirates 777

I think I'm only scratching the surface. Some you suggest will make me slap my forehead -- why didn't I think of that? OK go!

MAN-IAH Singapore Airlines A359

TG788 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:36 am

MXP-JFK is current, not historic.

AMS-YYZ 9W 77W
DUB-LAX ET 788
LAX-LHR NZ 77W
MAN-IAH SQ 77W (formerly DME-IAH)

blandy62 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:42 am

I don't think the Air Tahiti is a fifth freedom. Tahiti is part of France .

seansasLCY · Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:47 am

I think MH use to fly ARN-EWR with a 777. Jet Airways also had a hub in Brussels operating to the US/Canada.

Mortyman · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:03 am

Air New Zealand LHR - LAX ?

FromCDGtoSYD · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:06 am

LHR-JFK Air France 777

David_itl · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:10 am

sabena BRU-MAN -SNN)-NewYork using Dc6, Dc7 and 707

Lufthans did sonething like HAM DUS MAN SNN garnder ORD using L1649 Starliners

rufusmi · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:15 am

BRU-YYZ
BRU-EWR

Back when Jet Airways had a scissor hub in BRU.

Skyblue39 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:20 am

Aeroflot:
Moscow SVO - Shannon - Chicago/Washington/Miami/Santiago/Lima/Havana/Managua

Cunard · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:20 am

cedarjet wrote:
Hello. I am compiling a list of all Fifth Freedom operators on the North Atlantic, in history. I'll kick off with the ones I know about, and would love anyone to contribute their own memories. Here we go.

CURRENT
LHR-EWR Air-India 787
FRA-JFK Singapore Airlines A380 (777 in winter I think)
ATH-EWR Emirates 777
CDG-LAX Air Tahiti Nui A340

HISTORIC
LHR-JFK Kuwait EQV (747, A340, 777 etc)
LHR-JFK El Al 747
LHR-JFK Alitalia DC-8
LHR-JFK Air-India 747
LHR-ORD Air-India 747
LHR-YYZ Air-India 777
CDG-LAX Air-India 747
LGW-JFK Sabena 747
MAN-JFK PIA 747, 777
AMS-JFK Singapore Airlines 747
AMS-JFK Royal Jordanian L1011, 747
AMS-JFK TAROM Il-62, 707
AMS-ORD TAROM Il-62, 707
ORY-JFK Middle East Airlines 747
MXP-JFK Emirates A380
HAM-JFK Emirates 777

I think I'm only scratching the surface. Some you suggest will make me slap my forehead -- why didn't I think of that? OK go!

With reference to SN and LGW-JFK

It was actually BRU-LGW-ATL which was operated by Sabena in conjunction with BCAL who were short of aircraft at the time.

It was operated for two years from 1985 to 1987 with B742/743 Combi aircraft.

COPolynesianPub · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:22 am

I have flown 3 routes that may count.
Egyptair 747 JFK ORY CAI
Saudia 747 from JFK to AMS. It continued on to Saudi Arabia
Finnair DC10 from JFK to AMS CPH and HEL. I got off in CPH.

foxxray · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:42 am

cedarjet wrote:
CDG-LAX Air Tahiti Nui A340

This one is not a 5th Freedom flight. Air Tahiti Nui is a french airline holding a french AOC. Tahiti is an island that is part of the of French Polynesia.

euroflyer · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:51 am

foxxray wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
CDG-LAX Air Tahiti Nui A340

This one is not a 5th Freedom flight. Air Tahiti Nui is a french airline holding a french AOC. Tahiti is an island that is part of the of French Polynesia.

That is correct. How the OP would have thought it was a 5th freedom flight ??!

factsonly · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:56 am

Some historic TATL 5th freedoms from AMS:

- AMS-LAX - LH B707/B747

- AMS-ORD - LY B747/B707
- AMS-ORD - SQ B747
- AMS-ORD - RJ B747/L1011

- AMS-JFK - LY B747/B707
- AMS-JFK - AY DC8S/DC10
- AMS-JFK - LO IL62
- AMS-JFK - OK IL62
- AMS-JFK - PK B747
- AMS-JFK - BG B707/DC10

XAM2175 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:03 pm

DominoxX wrote:
JFK-LHR Qantas 707

Ended around 1974, IIRC, which broke their "around-the-world" service.

COPolynesianPub · Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:23 pm

factsonly, thanks for refreshing my memory.
I flew PK 747 from JFK to AMS. It was not on Saudia.

JFLANY · Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:33 pm

factsonly wrote:
Some historic TATL 5th freedoms from AMS:

- AMS-LAX - LH B707/B747

My favorite of all time, flown by 007 in Diamonds are Forever.

kaitak744 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:36 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Hello. I am compiling a list of all Fifth Freedom operators on the North Atlantic, in history. I'll kick off with the ones I know about, and would love anyone to contribute their own memories. Here we go.

CURRENT
LHR-EWR Air-India 787
FRA-JFK Singapore Airlines A380 (777 in winter I think)
ATH-EWR Emirates 777
CDG-LAX Air Tahiti Nui A340

HISTORIC
LHR-JFK Kuwait EQV (747, A340, 777 etc)
LHR-JFK El Al 747
LHR-JFK Alitalia DC-8
LHR-JFK Air-India 747
LHR-ORD Air-India 747
LHR-YYZ Air-India 777
CDG-LAX Air-India 747
LGW-JFK Sabena 747
MAN-JFK PIA 747, 777
AMS-JFK Singapore Airlines 747
AMS-JFK Royal Jordanian L1011, 747
AMS-JFK TAROM Il-62, 707
AMS-ORD TAROM Il-62, 707
ORY-JFK Middle East Airlines 747
MXP-JFK Emirates A380
HAM-JFK Emirates 777

I think I'm only scratching the surface. Some you suggest will make me slap my forehead -- why didn't I think of that? OK go!

Singapore's FRA-JFK is year-round A380

Air NewZealand does LAX-LHR with the 777-300ER. They have had this route for a very long time.

Air India did FRA-LAX, NOT CDG-LAX. It was primary with their sole 747-400M.

Singapore did AMS-ORD with the 777-200ER

Also, technically there is all the Norwegian stuff....

VCy · Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:40 pm

Gulf Air LCA-JFK A340. I believe this was around 1994.

george77300 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:45 pm

kaitak744 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
Hello. I am compiling a list of all Fifth Freedom operators on the North Atlantic, in history. I'll kick off with the ones I know about, and would love anyone to contribute their own memories. Here we go.

CURRENT
LHR-EWR Air-India 787
FRA-JFK Singapore Airlines A380 (777 in winter I think)
ATH-EWR Emirates 777
CDG-LAX Air Tahiti Nui A340

HISTORIC
LHR-JFK Kuwait EQV (747, A340, 777 etc)
LHR-JFK El Al 747
LHR-JFK Alitalia DC-8
LHR-JFK Air-India 747
LHR-ORD Air-India 747
LHR-YYZ Air-India 777
CDG-LAX Air-India 747
LGW-JFK Sabena 747
MAN-JFK PIA 747, 777
AMS-JFK Singapore Airlines 747
AMS-JFK Royal Jordanian L1011, 747
AMS-JFK TAROM Il-62, 707
AMS-ORD TAROM Il-62, 707
ORY-JFK Middle East Airlines 747
MXP-JFK Emirates A380
HAM-JFK Emirates 777

I think I'm only scratching the surface. Some you suggest will make me slap my forehead -- why didn't I think of that? OK go!

Singapore's FRA-JFK is year-round A380

Air NewZealand does LAX-LHR with the 777-300ER. They have had this route for a very long time.

Air India did FRA-LAX, NOT CDG-LAX. It was primary with their sole 747-400M.

Singapore did AMS-ORD with the 777-200ER

Also, technically there is all the Norwegian stuff....

Norwegian isn’t 5th freedom at all.

SLCLAXKIXKHH · Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Historical:
LAX-FRA NZ 744
JFK-BRU SQ 744

AI126 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:56 pm

AI used to do a daily BOM-CDG-EWR rotation. I took that flight twice as a child flying back to India to visit family.

flymia · Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:08 pm

MIA-PAP on Air France.

Iberia had a small hub/spoke operation at MIA for a bit of time form the 1990s to 2003. They have narrow body airplanes based at MIA to fly to places like SJO, PTY, MEX. I don't remember the specifics.

Lan flew for some time from MIA to Punta Cana.

Melbourne · Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:14 pm

Didn't SQ operate SIN-DME-IAH?

Also OA flew:
ATH-ORY-JFK 707
ATH-YUL-ORD 742

USAirALB · Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:25 pm

EK still flies JFK-MXP.

I believe SQ also did NYC-BRU at one point. In addition to EWR-ARN, I think MH might have down NYC-DXB.

9VSMF · Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:43 pm

TG788 wrote:
MAN-IAH SQ 77W (formerly DME-IAH)

MAN-IAH has been operated by the 359 for over a year now.

dmstorm22 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:49 pm

Back in the 90's-00's I flew the following on route to India:

JFK-GVA (I'm pretty sure it was GF)
JFK-FRA on KU
EWR-CDG on AI

Not sure if the first two were 5th freedom or you had to continue on to the Gulf, but EWR-CDG on AI (744) definitely could fly passengers just EWR-CDG

wirkey · Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:20 pm

DXB-HAM-JFK Emirates 777

hOMSaR · Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:21 pm

flymia wrote:
MIA-PAP on Air France.

Iberia had a small hub/spoke operation at MIA for a bit of time form the 1990s to 2003. They have narrow body airplanes based at MIA to fly to places like SJO, PTY, MEX. I don't remember the specifics.

Lan flew for some time from MIA to Punta Cana.

Maybe my geography is off, but how are these North Atlantic?

User001 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:42 pm

PIA served ORD/IAH/JFK via MAN. ORD also ran via BHX for a short while too.

I’m sure Aer Lingus also ran a TATL route from MAN but can’t remember the routing.

Biman also ran DAC-MAN-JFK.

Ethiopian also have DUB-LAX.

CMA727 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:48 pm

AM MIA-MAD-ORY DC-10-30

hynithuchi · Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:51 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
Back in the 90's-00's I flew the following on route to India:

JFK-GVA (I'm pretty sure it was GF)
JFK-FRA on KU
EWR-CDG on AI

Not sure if the first two were 5th freedom or you had to continue on to the Gulf, but EWR-CDG on AI (744) definitely could fly passengers just EWR-CDG

Yes, GF operated JFK/GVA/BAH but had no local traffic rights JFK/GVA if I remember correctly. That was one of the reason why they eventually cancelled GVA alltogether. Pity, their A-340 looked great.

dmstorm22 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:30 pm

hynithuchi wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
Back in the 90's-00's I flew the following on route to India:

JFK-GVA (I'm pretty sure it was GF)
JFK-FRA on KU
EWR-CDG on AI

Not sure if the first two were 5th freedom or you had to continue on to the Gulf, but EWR-CDG on AI (744) definitely could fly passengers just EWR-CDG

Yes, GF operated JFK/GVA/BAH but had no local traffic rights JFK/GVA if I remember correctly. That was one of the reason why they eventually cancelled GVA alltogether. Pity, their A-340 looked great.

Makes sense if they didn't have local rights. Yes, that A340 in their old livery looked amazing.

quintinsoloviev · Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:57 pm

Emirates still operates MXP-JFK-MXP

zrs70 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:34 pm

(forgive me if covered):

Historic:
SQ: JFK-AMS
SQ: LAX-TPE
QF: SFO-YVR
PR: YVR-LAS
KE: LAX-(Brazil, I think RIO)
TG: LAX-ICN

Current:
SQ: LAX-NRT
SQ: SFO-HKG

soflaflyer · Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:41 pm

What does the U.S. get in exchange for allowing these or prior 5th Freedom flights?
Also, why does Japan allow U.S. carriers 5th Freedom flights?

User001 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:46 pm

zrs70 wrote:
(forgive me if covered):

Historic:
SQ: JFK-AMS
SQ: LAX-TPE
QF: SFO-YVR
PR: YVR-LAS
KE: LAX-(Brazil, I think RIO)
TG: LAX-ICN

Current:
SQ: LAX-NRT
SQ: SFO-HKG

The majority of these flights are not North Atlantic as per OP.

flymia · Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:53 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
flymia wrote:
MIA-PAP on Air France.

Iberia had a small hub/spoke operation at MIA for a bit of time form the 1990s to 2003. They have narrow body airplanes based at MIA to fly to places like SJO, PTY, MEX. I don't remember the specifics.

Lan flew for some time from MIA to Punta Cana.

Maybe my geography is off, but how are these North Atlantic?

Early morning. Missed the North Atlantic part there..

XAM2175 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:37 pm

soflaflyer wrote:
What does the U.S. get in exchange for allowing these or prior 5th Freedom flights?
Also, why does Japan allow U.S. carriers 5th Freedom flights?

The rights are almost always granted reciprocally, but it doesn't mean they get used. For example, the USA-Australia bilateral permits US airlines to fly passenger services

from points behind the US via the US and intermediate points to a point or points in Australia and beyond.

and Australian airlines

from points behind Australia via Australia and intermediate points to a point or points in United States and beyond.

which effectively grants airlines from both countries unrestricted fifth- and sixth-freedoms at their respective ends, provided the other countries involved also permit it. For whatever reasons though, none of the eligible airlines currently do.

David_itl · Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:08 pm

User001 wrote:
I'm sure Aer Lingus also ran a TATL route from MAN but can’t remember the routing

Think it waa JFK-SNN-MAN-SNN-JFK over winter 1994/95 and not JFK-MAN-SNN-MAN-JFK.

PK ops were a bit odd. 5 5th freedom frequencies over their MAN-US ops which they split as 4 on JFK and 1 for IAH. YYZ was also operated but not sure of 5th freedom rights.

forgot AI did BHX -YYZ.

CollegeAviator · Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:20 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
Jet Airways also had a hub in Brussels operating to the US/Canada.

rufusmi wrote:
BRU-YYZ
BRU-EWR

Back when Jet Airways had a scissor hub in BRU.

9W BRU-JFK 2008 to 2012 I think.

It went from a 77W to a 332 before being cut altogether....

B747forever · Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:59 pm

Historic:

AF LHR-LAX 777-200ER (didn't last long)

seansasLCY wrote:
I think MH use to fly ARN-EWR with a 777. Jet Airways also had a hub in Brussels operating to the US/Canada.

MH flew KUL-ARN-EWR with the 747-400 and later 777-200ER.

TG788 · Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:35 pm

9VSMF wrote:
TG788 wrote:
MAN-IAH SQ 77W (formerly DME-IAH)

MAN-IAH has been operated by the 359 for over a year now.

Of course! Whoops

Not sure if EWR-ABJ and EWR-LFW, both ET 788 fit the "North Atlantic" requirement.

bhxdtw · Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:38 am

Qatar used to fly GVA to JFK too , I believe with A330 eqpt, and yes AF was LHR to LAX with a 77W, not JFK.
EK obviously also tried the HAM JFK link for a while with 777 type eqpt but subsequently disconnected them.
Uzbekistan used to fly BHX to JFK with a 763 and either did or do fly RIX to JFK with 763.
As mentioned, we also had PK and AI connect BHX with YYZ at various points with 777/787/747 eqpt.
Also, totally not north Atlantic but I feel it's nice to reminisce that MH once used a 744 between CPT and EZE.

PlymSpotter · Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:50 am

As Ocean names are only theoretical, you might as well look at the full definition of North Atlantic, which obscurely begins a few degrees North of the Equator, and the flights which pass over it.

Historic:

SNN-ORD, SU
SNN-MIA,SU
SNN-IAD, SU
SNN-JFK, SU (Wayport Rights)
BRU-JFK, BG
BHX-YYZ, AI

Current:

ACC-IAD, SAA
YUL-HAV, CA
MAD-GRU, CA
DKR-IAD, SAA

hynithuchi · Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:20 am

bhxdtw - quote: "Qatar used to fly GVA to JFK too , ", just to complete this, they had daily flights DOH/GVA/EWR and not to JFK. They had full traffic rights GVA/EWR and did very well on that sector despite competing with CO. It was obvious however that the EWR flight would eventually be non-stop which happened after a few years when QR changed their flight from EWR to JFK.

ZK-NBT · Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:34 am

NZ DFW-LGW 742 OCT 87 MAR 89 1-2 weekly

jumpjets · Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:37 am

I think these count as current fifth freedoms:

QF LHR-SIN A380
BR LHR-BKK 77W
BA still have an intra caribbean route network flown as the second leg of 772ER flights from LGW. I don't know them all but am aware of:
BA ANU-SKB
BA UVF-POS
BA UVF-GND

Historic
QF LHR-HKG (I think just 744s)
NZ LHR-HKG (744s/77W over the years)

Current but soon to be historic is the BI 788 flight between LHR and DXB en route to BWN. This will soon become a non stop service between London and Brunei.

I am also aware but don't have full details that AC used to have a number of 5th freedom routes from LHR including DEL, BOM and NCE

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