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flyinTLow
Topic Author
Posts: 491
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:40 pm

Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:03 pm

Hey everyone!

Trying to get some help from the group think tank. Ever since the NTSB said the „NOTAM System is a piece of garbage!“ I was trying to find a couple of further accidents and incidents where a not-read or „forgotten“ NOTAM played a vital role as a cause. Searching avherald does no real help as the word NOTAM pops up in about every single report.

So which ones come to your mind?

Only prominent one I remember is SQ006, the Singapore 747 in Taiwan that took off from a closed runway.

Do you remember others?

Thanks!

FlyinTLow
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
nkops
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Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:43 pm

I think one that comes to mind with me is the Allegiant emergency landing in FAR (2015 IIRC) , when the airport had been NOTAM closed for airshow purposes. Apparently, they did not have enough fuel to proceed to an alternate airport
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
739er
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Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:53 am

Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:45 pm

Confusing list of notams was also cited in Comair accident in Tennesee
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:49 pm

Yeah I think you mean the Comair CRJ accident on take off at LEX.
 
TropicalSky
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Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:59 pm

Ils out of service at KSFO in the ASIANA B777 accident where the pilots couldn't fly a visual approach on a VFR day
 
jetmatt777
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Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:05 pm

It’s tough because you can’t really prioritize them based on importance, because technically they are all relevant to some aspect of the operation. Only looking at the top few “important” ones might allow one to miss relevant information further down.

I certainly understand some are meaningless for some operations, and a lot of them are just reports of cranes and obstacles that don’t appear on charts. But is it really safe to omit that information? It is relevant to somebody.

However, they definitely need to be cleaned up, there’s NO LNGR ND FOR SHRTHND STYLE OF MSG IN NOTAM THIS CNTRY. ADVS USE OF ACTL WORDS IN NOTAM.
 
AleksW
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Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:37 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
It’s tough because you can’t really prioritize them based on importance, because technically they are all relevant to some aspect of the operation. Only looking at the top few “important” ones might allow one to miss relevant information further down.
I certainly understand some are meaningless for some operations, and a lot of them are just reports of cranes and obstacles that don’t appear on charts. But is it really safe to omit that information? It is relevant to somebody.
However, they definitely need to be cleaned up, there’s NO LNGR ND FOR SHRTHND STYLE OF MSG IN NOTAM THIS CNTRY. ADVS USE OF ACTL WORDS IN NOTAM.


I'm not a line pilot, but was dealing with NOTAMS at some point. If you are dealing with multiple FIRs / countries the amount of information you need to review can be very high. I honestly wish that in the future there will be some sort of visual and more user friendly way to prioritize and read it.

For example coordinates of restricted areas. Instead of giving us rows of coordinates it would be so nice to see them on the interactive map straight away. And do we really need to abbriviate so much in the 21st century? We are not in the telegraph era any more.
 
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texas145
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Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:41 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
there’s NO LNGR ND FOR SHRTHND STYLE OF MSG IN NOTAM THIS CNTRY. ADVS USE OF ACTL WORDS IN NOTAM.


Huge +1. Not to mention TAF's, Snotams, and Metar's, too.

It's 2018.
A clear conscience is a great pillow.
 
AleksW
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Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:50 pm

texas145 wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
there’s NO LNGR ND FOR SHRTHND STYLE OF MSG IN NOTAM THIS CNTRY. ADVS USE OF ACTL WORDS IN NOTAM.


Huge +1. Not to mention TAF's, Snotams, and Metar's, too.

It's 2018.


Haha! Especially various formats of runway contaminations.
I really woud like to hear real life airline pilots opinion on all this (Notams, TAFs, etc)
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:53 pm

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19791031-0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Airlines_Flight_2605

Western Airlines flight 2605 crashed on landing at MEX when, despite a NOTAM (dated October 19, 1979) telling all flight crews that Runway 23L was closed to traffic, the crew attempted to land anyway without the runway in sight.

The ILS approach system was being used in a "side-step" configuration, whereby landing aircraft would use the ILS system for 23L and then "S-curve" to land on 23R. It failed to do so, touching down actually with the right landing gear on the runway and the left landing gear on the grass strip on the left side of the runway. Had there not been a work truck on that closed runway at the time, the DC-10 might have successfully pulled up and gone around, but fate determined otherwise.

I will have to find the book that is somewhere in storage, but I remember reading in the description that, according to the transcripts of communication between MEX control and the flight crew, they were informed at least twice that "Runway 23L is closed to traffic" and "Runway 23R is your runway". Sadly, for whatever reason, the plane continued onto the wrong runway with catastrophic results.

This crash came less than a year after United Airlines flight 173 crashed in Portland, Oregon, after the flight crew obsessed about a landing gear issue to the point where they ran out of gas. Cockpit Resource Management came along after these and other crashes caused public outrage.
 
 
flyinTLow
Topic Author
Posts: 491
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Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:32 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
It’s tough because you can’t really prioritize them based on importance, because technically they are all relevant to some aspect of the operation. Only looking at the top few “important” ones might allow one to miss relevant information further down.

I certainly understand some are meaningless for some operations, and a lot of them are just reports of cranes and obstacles that don’t appear on charts. But is it really safe to omit that information? It is relevant to somebody.

However, they definitely need to be cleaned up, there’s NO LNGR ND FOR SHRTHND STYLE OF MSG IN NOTAM THIS CNTRY. ADVS USE OF ACTL WORDS IN NOTAM.


I am an actual airline pilot and most of it is b*llsh*t. Just to quote a few numerous ones in FRA yesterday: work in progress in ditch more than 75m from centerljne. There were a total of 3 of them. That is not relevant to anyone!

But back to the topic: I am looking for accidents and incidents. There are many „contributing factors“ as I would say is the case with the ILS in SFO for Asiana. But no main factor...
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
VSMUT
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Re: Accidents/Incidents where a NOTAM played vital role

Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:28 am

flyinTLow wrote:
I am an actual airline pilot and most of it is b*llsh*t. Just to quote a few numerous ones in FRA yesterday: work in progress in ditch more than 75m from centerljne. There were a total of 3 of them. That is not relevant to anyone!


Absolutely agree! Keep it relevant to us. Browsing through 5 pages of mostly irrelevant NOTAMs increases the likelyhood of missing the important stuff.
Worst Ive seen was a place where there was a large quarry 20 km from the airport. There was a notice for every single blasting they did, over 10 per day!

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