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JerseyFlyer
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Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:47 pm

This contrasts the comfort-reducing strategy ascribed to AA with that of competing US-based airlines.

Has the global trend for increasing seat numbers, and reducing seat width and pitch finally found its limit?

https://aviationnews.online/2018/10/25/ ... res-mount/
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:52 pm

No. AA went with 30" seat pitch on the Max 8s. Do a survey of seat pitch and coach seat styles on U.S. ULCCs (including Spirit, Frontier. Allegiant, and intra-island Hawaiian) and you can answer your own question. Coach 737 seat width is no different from what it was 35 years ago.
 
N766UA
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:01 pm

I hope so. The winning formula here, while it does include a basic economy offering, seems to also include a solid premium product. AA is putting an inordinate number of its eggs in the bare bones, low-end basket, and it’s suffering for it. Frankly, I’m glad to see them struggle with that model.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:21 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
Has A.NET hit the limit of baseless, mindless post?

Why not read the article and tell us why you think it's baseless?

Otherwise you're the one wasting our time.

American seems to be suffering from a product and perception problem. It’s new Max-8 and refitted interiors are not customer friendly and the public seem very aware of it- far more than is usual.

The perception is that one bad product sector applies to the airline as a whole, and despite more fliers, the airline isn’t making money out of those passengers in the same way United and Delta are.

Indeed the Delta figures show an extraordinary growth in demand for premium seating – the very thing that American is in effect not seemingly offering, and that customers perceive it doesn’t have because of the poor standard of its low-end product.

Tiny seats and impossibly small toilets nobody can get in to are scaring premium paying passengers away.

It's a pretty easy thing to gauge.

N766UA wrote:
I hope so. The winning formula here, while it does include a basic economy offering, seems to also include a solid premium product. AA is putting an inordinate number of its eggs in the bare bones, low-end basket, and it’s suffering for it. Frankly, I’m glad to see them struggle with that model.

That's the problem with the whole "market will determine outcome" process -- for it to work, someone has to "overshoot" then there will be a "correction", and since this involves hard product, each step of the process involves a lot of time and money.

I am also glad in the sense that I'm sensing the race for the bottom seems to be hitting the bottom.

I admit to a bit of glee that it's Doug Parker who took us there.

He's the type of person to continue to blunder his way forward till it all comes crashing down.

Meanwhile I just booked DL premium economy for myself.

Take that, Doug!
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Pi7472000
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:27 pm

AA is a really uncomfortable airline to fly. Along with the service provided by its employees, the airline reminds me of flying Frontier now in all classes domestically. American really needs to become customer focused again like it used to be.
 
RJNUT
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:27 pm

Trips over 4 hours I am just buying the upgraded products available up to and including 1st class domestic. But I will suffer the "indignities" for short haul. So for me these unbundled schemes work well, but I understand most people shop price, price, price!
 
afcjets
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:29 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Coach 737 seat width is no different from what it was 35 years ago.


AA hadn’t bought AirCal yet and didn’t have 737s. I know you meant industry wide though. 35 years ago F and Y seats did not have spaces between them where you could see the row in front of you. F width has shrunk even more than coach when you measure from the top.
 
mia
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:32 pm

I dont want to give anyone ideas but I flew Eagle (Republic) with an updated interior the other day and I actually thought to myself "these seats are more comfortable than I remember.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:34 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
AA is a really uncomfortable airline to fly. Along with the service provided by its employees, the airline reminds me of flying Frontier now in all classes domestically. American really needs to become customer focused again like it used to be.


Under Douggie Parker it won't change. Although there flight attendees generally provide solid service minus the credit card advertisements :mad:
 
LewisNEO
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:36 pm

You are the wind beneath my wings.

Fokker 27, Bombardier Dash 8, Embraer 175 & 195, 727-200, 737-200 & -300 & -400 & -800, 747-400, 767-300, 767-400, DC 10-30, A320-200, A330-200, A330-300, A380.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:38 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
Pi7472000 wrote:
AA is a really uncomfortable airline to fly. Along with the service provided by its employees, the airline reminds me of flying Frontier now in all classes domestically. American really needs to become customer focused again like it used to be.


Under Douggie Parker it won't change. Although there flight attendees generally provide solid service minus the credit card advertisements :mad:

It seems DP is taking the race to the bottom to its penultimate step, whereas DL has managed to give customers a big enough glimpse of what the bottom would be like to scare them enough to buy updates. I think this takes more sophistication than DP possess.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
axiom
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:38 pm

I do not consider myself particularly loyal to any one airline. I routinely fly on choice and schedule. I'm in many ways the disloyal 21st century customer.

But lately, I've made an effort to avoid AA, in part because of my understanding about the MAX product. Enough is enough.

On the other hand, the other day I had a fantastic experience with DL across the Atlantic in the back of the bus. Incredible service at a great value. And their financials have never been better. Go figure. Guess what? Against the odds, I find myself looking at DL first, or picking them even when they're a little bit more expensive than the other majors.
 
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:43 pm

LewisNEO wrote:

Yep, not a good one:

AvGeek-wise, the Boeing 737 MAX 8 is a wonder. Passenger-wise, the American Airlines 737 MAX 8 is a horror. AA installed premium economy seats as first class seats and thin and flimsy slimline seats in economy. First class pitch isn’t generous and — with few exceptions — it gets worse the further back you go. Sadly, the 737 MAX 8 isn’t a bird that American Airlines flyers will want to seek out.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
musman9853
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:45 pm

there's prem economy on the new maxes right? i think that while we're getting as close as possible to the bottom, but as long as american gives me cheap flights ill fly with them
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
parapente
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:14 pm

As a Brit perhaps wrong of me to even comment but it seems the word that matters is 'competition'.So often there isn't any so you have to take what you are given.It appears this is not the case here and people are voting with their feet/wallets.Looks like they may have made some very bad marketing decisions,not just seats but loo's as well.
With BA (over here) they acted very promptly to the storm of protests and bad write ups they got with their origonal 787 y seats.It appears that someone on high (WW?) made a fast excuitive decision to change them.Perhpas because of Norwegian? Hard to say.
Of course (longhaul) BA (y) customers have been used to 772's and 773's in 9ab so the difference perhaps more noticeable than usual.
Anyway the point being they acted very promptly.One hopes this airline will too.
 
ldvaviation
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:39 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
Has A.NET hit the limit of baseless, mindless post?


It is funny... because it appears the OP was impressed by the big plane pictures in the article.
 
DarthLobster
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:46 pm

musman9853 wrote:
but as long as american gives me cheap flights ill fly with them


And right there is the crux of the problem. Squeezed and compacted and tortured yet price is still king. Passengers really have only themselves to blame for continuing to accept worse and worse standards all in the name of cheap seats. You get what you pay for.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:56 pm

This continued media hit piece on AA's cabins is misleading the public. AA has been a laggard at increasing density in their cabins. DL/UA led the way in this area (and look at where their financials are). The misinformation is disgusting to me.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:00 pm

The AA 737 Max is like a spirit plane they just pretend it's not. Race to the bottom AA is being very competstive. Can you imagine cross country in this........not fun at all. A plane I unfortunately took once and now try to avoid on AA.

The MCE seats have the same pitch as B6 normal seats on a A320 and look way less comfortable.

If anyone paid cash for this first class seats they deserve a refund.
 
flyguy84
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:03 pm

Yes. Flew on AA for the first time in years on a 738 (old configuration) a few weeks ago, and it was the most uncomfortable ride I may have ever been on. Even in MCE it was tight.
SFO
 
flyguy84
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:05 pm

musman9853 wrote:
there's prem economy on the new maxes right? i think that while we're getting as close as possible to the bottom, but as long as american gives me cheap flights ill fly with them

MCE is nowhere near premium economy.
SFO
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:06 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
The AA 737 Max is like a spirit plane they just pretend it's not.


No, it isn't. This is readily verified fact, by seat pitch and seat design. You and the OP are just hyperbolic and lazy on this topic.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:07 pm

The race to the bottom will never ever end. As long as people want lower fares and are willing to put up with being squeezed into a can like a sardine, there is no end in sight.


Just as we sit here wasting our time posting to this thread, the airline execs are scheming up ways to bring us down even more.
 
797
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:10 pm

Flying AA is a burden. I've struggled to retain my Gold status with them just to have the ability to choose a main cabin extra seat at no extra cost 24 hours before the trip. But other than that, it's a really crappy airline, tight seats, often hostile FAs...

And God forbid I'll never come across one of those tight 737 MAXs.
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:19 pm

mia wrote:
I dont want to give anyone ideas but I flew Eagle (Republic) with an updated interior the other day and I actually thought to myself "these seats are more comfortable than I remember.


An e170 probably. Those always seem to be comfortable.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:39 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
This continued media hit piece on AA's cabins is misleading the public. AA has been a laggard at increasing density in their cabins. DL/UA led the way in this area (and look at where their financials are). The misinformation is disgusting to me.


You make a good point. I think AA gets the bad publicity because-
1. Doug and gang make comments like "closer seats make the plane more comfortable" (or something like that), it gets leaked and portrays a sense of "arrogance" (at least in my opinion).
2. Taking a look at DL, at least DL "adds" while taking things away, so to speak. For example, DL added free messaging. So yes, the seats may be closer, but there is something added (whether you think it of value, that's debatable - my point is at least there is something being added). On the other hand, AA is just in the taking mode. It only seems to "add" as a response.
3. AA needs to learn PR or get a new PR team. Look at the recent memo on "re-accommodation" and the restrictions for economy customers. I agree with AA that DL and UA have similar policies. But DL responded to the issue saying "we empower our employees to do the right thing". Now, my guess is DL has the same as AA, but DL's delivery was much netter.
4. AA needs to work on employee morale. It's a double whammy when you have employees also complaining about the new configuration in public.

Just my two cents.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:40 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
This continued media hit piece on AA's cabins is misleading the public. AA has been a laggard at increasing density in their cabins. DL/UA led the way in this area (and look at where their financials are). The misinformation is disgusting to me.


You make a good point. I think AA gets the bad publicity because-
1. Doug and gang make comments like "closer seats make the plane more comfortable" (or something like that), it gets leaked and portrays a sense of "arrogance" (at least in my opinion).
2. Taking a look at DL, at least DL "adds" while taking things away, so to speak. For example, DL added free messaging. So yes, the seats may be closer, but there is something added (whether you think it of value, that's debatable - my point is at least there is something being added). On the other hand, AA is just in the taking mode. It only seems to "add" as a response.
3. AA needs to learn PR or get a new PR team. Look at the recent memo on "re-accommodation" and the restrictions for economy customers. I agree with AA that DL and UA have similar policies. But DL responded to the issue saying "we empower our employees to do the right thing". Now, my guess is DL has the same as AA, but DL's delivery was much netter.
4. AA needs to work on employee morale. It's a double whammy when you have employees also complaining about the new configuration in public.

Just my two cents.
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:49 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
This continued media hit piece on AA's cabins is misleading the public. AA has been a laggard at increasing density in their cabins. DL/UA led the way in this area (and look at where their financials are). The misinformation is disgusting to me.


If only 'density' was the only issue with AA... But it definitely does not help.
@DadCelo
 
Murdoughnut
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:59 pm

I'm Platinum on United, but had to fly AA for a meeting at their HQ a few weeks ago. I was actually pretty impressed with their in-flight entertainment system and options back in economy.
 
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fsx98
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:08 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
mia wrote:
I dont want to give anyone ideas but I flew Eagle (Republic) with an updated interior the other day and I actually thought to myself "these seats are more comfortable than I remember.


An e170 probably. Those always seem to be comfortable.


I have flown in an E175 in three of the AA flights so far and found those to be the most comfortable of all AA flights taken; the CRJ flights, a 737 flight (non-MAX), and a legacy US 757 flight have miserable hip room; legroom in such flights is modest (not bad, IMO); I have yet to fly any B737 MAX 8 flight of any airline but I would be hesitant to fly one on AA.

By comparison, WN has the most comfortable seats that I've ever sat on of all airlines that I've flown on.
 
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FlightLevel360
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:27 pm

I find it funny that some people defend that AA is doing the right thing in having a product that lags behind UA, much less DL, B6, etc.

AA management is a joke. They lack more common sense, intuition, and critical thinking skills than most people.
To me, it will always be:
- Bombardier CSeries
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- EMBRACER ERJ-170, ERJ-175, ERJ-190, and ERJ-195
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Chemist
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:29 pm

"Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?"

No, I'm sure they will find a way to cheap out further.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
LewisNEO wrote:

Yep, not a good one:

AvGeek-wise, the Boeing 737 MAX 8 is a wonder. Passenger-wise, the American Airlines 737 MAX 8 is a horror. AA installed premium economy seats as first class seats and thin and flimsy slimline seats in economy. First class pitch isn’t generous and — with few exceptions — it gets worse the further back you go. Sadly, the 737 MAX 8 isn’t a bird that American Airlines flyers will want to seek out.


I get the sentiment, but it is annoyingly ahistorical. The domestic F class seats are largely unchanged and they predate long-haul premium economy. Better said would be that AA installed its domestic F seat as premium economy for long-haul.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:35 pm

Interesting. Been flying them more and more. Not experiencing the pain everyone else is enduring. Leave on time. Arrive on time. Friendly FAs. Dependable transport.
 
KCaviator
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:19 pm

CarlosSi wrote:
mia wrote:
I dont want to give anyone ideas but I flew Eagle (Republic) with an updated interior the other day and I actually thought to myself "these seats are more comfortable than I remember.


An e170 probably. Those always seem to be comfortable.


It was definitely not a 170, as we (Republic) do not fly 170s for American. The aircraft with new interiors were previously 80-seat 175s flown for US Airways Express.

The new interior on these planes are 100% more comfortable than flying in the back of an AA 737.
 
global2
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:32 pm

Murdoughnut wrote:
I'm Platinum on United, but had to fly AA for a meeting at their HQ a few weeks ago. I was actually pretty impressed with their in-flight entertainment system and options back in economy.


In-flight entertainment system on a domestic flight? Didn't Parker start having those ripped out of the fleet?
PS: I don't want to watch a movie on my phone!
 
LewisNEO
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:01 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Revelation wrote:
LewisNEO wrote:

Yep, not a good one:

AvGeek-wise, the Boeing 737 MAX 8 is a wonder. Passenger-wise, the American Airlines 737 MAX 8 is a horror. AA installed premium economy seats as first class seats and thin and flimsy slimline seats in economy. First class pitch isn’t generous and — with few exceptions — it gets worse the further back you go. Sadly, the 737 MAX 8 isn’t a bird that American Airlines flyers will want to seek out.


I get the sentiment, but it is annoyingly ahistorical. The domestic F class seats are largely unchanged and they predate long-haul premium economy. Better said would be that AA installed its domestic F seat as premium economy for long-haul.


Anyway domestic first class or business class can't be compared to the long haul product. But it is still very cramped and pity the is no IFE
You are the wind beneath my wings.

Fokker 27, Bombardier Dash 8, Embraer 175 & 195, 727-200, 737-200 & -300 & -400 & -800, 747-400, 767-300, 767-400, DC 10-30, A320-200, A330-200, A330-300, A380.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:24 pm

I have always been concerned with the shrinking amount of legroom on airplanes, but not necessarily for the sake of comfort. The evacuation of the plane is always a concern, and the extreme shrinkage of space worries me that in a real emergency there might just be too many people squeezed in to evacuate quickly. I hope we never find out!

As far as the bathrooms go, my one and only experience with the MAX was on United, and it also had the ridiculous lavatory. It just simply is too small, but that's not the plane's fault.
 
jumbojet
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:23 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
This continued media hit piece on AA's cabins is misleading the public. AA has been a laggard at increasing density in their cabins. DL/UA led the way in this area (and look at where their financials are). The misinformation is disgusting to me.


Thats because of your very obvious anti Delta attitude towards everything. You dont hide it. Everyone knows it. If maybe once in a while you gave them credit where credit was due, you would sound much more believable. You havent figured that out by now?
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:57 pm

KCaviator wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
mia wrote:
I dont want to give anyone ideas but I flew Eagle (Republic) with an updated interior the other day and I actually thought to myself "these seats are more comfortable than I remember.


An e170 probably. Those always seem to be comfortable.


It was definitely not a 170, as we (Republic) do not fly 170s for American. The aircraft with new interiors were previously 80-seat 175s flown for US Airways Express.

The new interior on these planes are 100% more comfortable than flying in the back of an AA 737.


Was referring to the type in general ;) ,I know that both are around with American’s regionals but wasn’t sure if Republic operated the specific e75.
 
musman9853
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Re: Has AA hit the limit for passenger discomfort?

Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:38 pm

DarthLobster wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
but as long as american gives me cheap flights ill fly with them


And right there is the crux of the problem. Squeezed and compacted and tortured yet price is still king. Passengers really have only themselves to blame for continuing to accept worse and worse standards all in the name of cheap seats. You get what you pay for.


absolutely. i recognize that i can pay more for a more comfortable flight and refuse to.
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