vict4359
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Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:15 pm

Is it likely that Air Italy will be the national carrier in Italy because Alitalia has filed bankruptcy several times? Alitalia has already over 9,5 billion euro in dept.
 
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afterburner
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:36 pm

What is "national carrier"?
 
lancelot07
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:37 pm

Seems like Ryanair is the largest airline in Italy. Air Italy? Never heard of it, tell us more!
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:56 pm

Do we need a new Air Italy thread everyday?
It looks like attempts to get PR exposure.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:08 pm

Given the fact that the Italian government keeps backing Alitalia each time they run out of money, Air Italy will never take the place of a flag carrier in Italy. No matter how bad Alitalia is doing, they'll be around for forever. The Italian government will never let Alitalia come to the point where they have to cease operations.

On the other hand, if Air Italy were to run out of money, don't expect a helping hand from the Italian government.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:13 pm

afterburner wrote:
What is "national carrier"?

Exactly.
,

Dear OP, can you define what this is, and provide us a list of 20 of these companies, please
 
dcajet
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:18 pm

Becoming Italy's main carrier (aka national or flag carrier) would be AAB's w*t dream. Not going to happen. AZ is not going anywhere.
"Unattended children will be given espresso and a free kitten"
 
axiom
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:20 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
Do we need a new Air Italy thread everyday?
It looks like attempts to get PR exposure.



I second your hypothesis
 
rbavfan
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:31 pm

sassiciai wrote:
afterburner wrote:
What is "national carrier"?

Exactly.
,

Dear OP, can you define what this is, and provide us a list of 20 of these companies, please


Off the top of may head Air France, South African Airways, Fiji Airways, Air New Zealand, Air Canada, ect.
 
Cunard
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:38 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Given the fact that the Italian government keeps backing Alitalia each time they run out of money, Air Italy will never take the place of a flag carrier in Italy. No matter how bad Alitalia is doing, they'll be around for forever. The Italian government will never let Alitalia come to the point where they have to cease operations.

On the other hand, if Air Italy were to run out of money, don't expect a helping hand from the Italian government.


Do you know what Patrick your post is absolutely spot on, that's how it is and there are so many on these forums that don't actually understand that or at least don't want to understand the situation.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cunard
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:41 pm

axiom wrote:
Waterbomber wrote:
Do we need a new Air Italy thread everyday?
It looks like attempts to get PR exposure.



I second your hypothesis


I'll second that :-)
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:04 pm

rbavfan wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
afterburner wrote:
What is "national carrier"?

Exactly.
,

Dear OP, can you define what this is, and provide us a list of 20 of these companies, please


Off the top of may head Air France, South African Airways, Fiji Airways, Air New Zealand, Air Canada, ect.


Etihad Airways , Qatar Airways , Ethiopian Airlines
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
tpaewr
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:25 pm

I think the confusion is rooted in the OP speaking of an informal status as if it was something official.

Most western nations no longer have “national” airlines in a formal manner and haven’t for some time.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:43 pm

tpaewr wrote:
I think the confusion is rooted in the OP speaking of an informal status as if it was something official.

Most western nations no longer have “national” airlines in a formal manner and haven’t for some time.


Indeed it's an informal thing, but still a very strong feeling here in Europe. People tend to associate a country with a national airline, an airline that symbolizes the country. It doesn't have to carry the name of the country, but you always know airline and country belong together.

Let's list a bunch:

Iceland: Icelandair
Finland: Finnair
Ireland: Aer Lingus
United Kingdom: British Airways
Netherlands: KLM
Belgium: Brussels Airlines
Luxembourg: Luxair
Germany: Lufthansa
Poland: LOT
Czech Republic: CSA
Austria: Austrian Airways
Switzerland: Swiss
France: Air France
Portugal: TAP
Spain: Iberia
Italy: Alitalia
Malta: Air Malta
Russia: Aeroflot

The Scandinavian countries (Norway, Denmark and Sweden) are in a unique position to have a shared flag carrier: SAS.

Some flag carriers aren't anymore, like Malev (Hungary) and Olympic (Greece). Hungary no longer has a flag carrier, there is no airline that strongly associates itself with Hungary. In Germany Aegean is trying to become the new flag carrier, but they don't yet have the glory that Olympic once had.

In Belgium the flag carrier once was Sabena, but they went bankrupt and later went on under the name Brussels Airlines. While it has lost some of it's glory, it's essentially the same airline.

The flag carrier doesn't always have to be the largest airline in the country. In Ireland Ryanair is the largest airline, but they don't really feel "Irish". They're international. Aer Lingus truly feels Irish, they represent Ireland in the world of aviation. They're the flag carrier.
 
spannacomo
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:49 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Given the fact that the Italian government keeps backing Alitalia each time they run out of money, Air Italy will never take the place of a flag carrier in Italy. No matter how bad Alitalia is doing, they'll be around for forever. The Italian government will never let Alitalia come to the point where they have to cease operations.

Even if they don't cease operations, at every crisis they get smaller, with less staff and planes. Now they have 12000 employees and 118 planes, they will most probably reduce that by about 20% next year when thwy will get out of the special crisis administration. Another 3 years time and there will be another crisis with yet another shrinking. I think there is now room for another company to grow and lead the Italian market.
 
pipeafcr
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:04 pm

Well I sure do hope so, Alitatia needs to be put to rest already as it's more of a burden for Italian tax payers and I'm sure that a properly managed company, which I hope Air Italy gets to be, would be able to do the job much better. That's just how the free market works; restructure and innovate or die.
Felipe Carrillo
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:24 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Indeed it's an informal thing, but still a very strong feeling here in Europe. People tend to associate a country with a national airline, an airline that symbolizes the country. It doesn't have to carry the name of the country, but you always know airline and country belong together.

Let's list a bunch:


I'd take issue with your list of Belgium and Switzerland. While those are true today, they are only so because the governments let failing airlines fail otherwise it'd be Sabena and Swissair. The problem is Italy just won't let AZ fail and the only way would be pressure from the EU and given the state of domestic Italian politics, they'd love to give more to AZ just to stick it to Brussels.
 
Cunard
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:44 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
tpaewr wrote:
I think the confusion is rooted in the OP speaking of an informal status as if it was something official.

Most western nations no longer have “national” airlines in a formal manner and haven’t for some time.


Indeed it's an informal thing, but still a very strong feeling here in Europe. People tend to associate a country with a national airline, an airline that symbolizes the country. It doesn't have to carry the name of the country, but you always know airline and country belong together.

Let's list a bunch:

Iceland: Icelandair
Finland: Finnair
Ireland: Aer Lingus
United Kingdom: British Airways
Netherlands: KLM
Belgium: Brussels Airlines
Luxembourg: Luxair
Germany: Lufthansa
Poland: LOT
Czech Republic: CSA
Austria: Austrian Airways
Switzerland: Swiss
France: Air France
Portugal: TAP
Spain: Iberia
Italy: Alitalia
Malta: Air Malta
Russia: Aeroflot

The Scandinavian countries (Norway, Denmark and Sweden) are in a unique position to have a shared flag carrier: SAS.

Some flag carriers aren't anymore, like Malev (Hungary) and Olympic (Greece). Hungary no longer has a flag carrier, there is no airline that strongly associates itself with Hungary. In Germany Aegean is trying to become the new flag carrier, but they don't yet have the glory that Olympic once had.

In Belgium the flag carrier once was Sabena, but they went bankrupt and later went on under the name Brussels Airlines. While it has lost some of it's glory, it's essentially the same airline.

The flag carrier doesn't always have to be the largest airline in the country. In Ireland Ryanair is the largest airline, but they don't really feel "Irish". They're international. Aer Lingus truly feels Irish, they represent Ireland in the world of aviation. They're the flag carrier.


Another good post Patrick but as I mentioned on another thread the time allowed to edit posts is far too short as I'm sure your agree!

Not sure if you have noticed your obvious mistake in your post when you accidentally wrote ''in Germany Aegean are trying to become the new flag carrier''!

Aegean is actually a difficult one because they actually bought or merged which ever way you want to look at it with the former flag carrier Olympic Airways which had changed it's name to Olympic Air after privatisation and still exists as a regional subsidiary of Aegean Airlines and trades under the name of Olympic Air and retaining the former flag carriers livery.

I wish that Olympic Airways were still flying today on the Aegean Airlines network as I've always admired their livery and in my opinion I think it's more representative of Greece compared to the rather boring livery of Aegean Airlines.

Every aircraft that flew in the former Olympic Airways fleet looked really spectacular in their livery it just suited them all especially on the B707, B720, B727, B737, B747 and A300.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:17 pm

If AZ were to finally shut down, then yes, theoretically, but AZ alas will not. It has been dying a death of a thousand paper cuts since the mid-1990s and isn't going anywhere, with a nationalistic, populist government that will break every EU law to keep it flying as long as possible.
 
FatCat
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:53 am

no
air italy is just meridiana with another name
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:59 pm

No and Air Italy will go the way of Air Berlin as soon as QR will not or can not bankroll them anymore.
 
avier
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:17 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
If AZ were to finally shut down, then yes, theoretically, but AZ alas will not. It has been dying a death of a thousand paper cuts since the mid-1990s and isn't going anywhere, with a nationalistic, populist government that will break every EU law to keep it flying as long as possible.


These sick bankrupt companies are kept artificially alive and will not let other airlines thrive.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:22 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
If AZ were to finally shut down, then yes, theoretically, but AZ alas will not. It has been dying a death of a thousand paper cuts since the mid-1990s and isn't going anywhere, with a nationalistic, populist government that will break every EU law to keep it flying as long as possible.


The current Italian government has a very different view on things though. They want to get rid of incompetent corporations that live off state-funding. It was the cancellation of a military development program based on this view, that recently caused Piaggio Aerospace to shutter. It's still difficult to imagine Alitalia being left to die, but with this government the chances are probably higher than ever.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:26 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
No and Air Italy will go the way of Air Berlin as soon as QR will not or can not bankroll them anymore.


Air Berlin was Etihad owned and run, not Qatar ;)
 
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Polot
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:29 pm

VSMUT wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
No and Air Italy will go the way of Air Berlin as soon as QR will not or can not bankroll them anymore.


Air Berlin was Etihad owned and run, not Qatar ;)

He was talking about Air Italy, saying that they follow Air Berlin’s fate as soon as QR can not or will not financially support Air Italy.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:02 pm

Polot wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
No and Air Italy will go the way of Air Berlin as soon as QR will not or can not bankroll them anymore.


Air Berlin was Etihad owned and run, not Qatar ;)

He was talking about Air Italy, saying that they follow Air Berlin’s fate as soon as QR can not or will not financially support Air Italy.


Is there any indication that this is the case though? Qatar only owns 1 European subsidiary, based in a market where the current incumbent is already very weak, and in any case seems to be financially better off than Etihad ever was.
Etihad had a hodge-podge of 7 different (often ailing) airlines with little in terms of synergy. Air Berlin was based in a market dominated by the financially strong Lufthansa group. Darwin made little sense, they couldn't compete with Swiss, and merely duplicated Air Berlin's turboprop subsidiary. Alitalia was never going to make it.

I'm not saying that Qatar will be successful in this field, but IMHO, you can't directly compare the situation. And lets face it, Qatar already has 20% of IAG and 5-10% of American Airlines, and we don't have people running around saying that those groups are going to fail once Qatar can't afford to bankroll them any more... ;)
 
LIPZ
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:15 pm

VSMUT wrote:
and 5-10% of American Airlines

Sorry, could you elaborate more??
 
VSMUT
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:02 pm

LIPZ wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
and 5-10% of American Airlines

Sorry, could you elaborate more??


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-qata ... SKBN19R1DV

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel/fl ... 419049001/
 
Waterbomber
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:38 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Polot wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Air Berlin was Etihad owned and run, not Qatar ;)

He was talking about Air Italy, saying that they follow Air Berlin’s fate as soon as QR can not or will not financially support Air Italy.


Is there any indication that this is the case though? Qatar only owns 1 European subsidiary, based in a market where the current incumbent is already very weak, and in any case seems to be financially better off than Etihad ever was.
Etihad had a hodge-podge of 7 different (often ailing) airlines with little in terms of synergy. Air Berlin was based in a market dominated by the financially strong Lufthansa group. Darwin made little sense, they couldn't compete with Swiss, and merely duplicated Air Berlin's turboprop subsidiary. Alitalia was never going to make it.

I'm not saying that Qatar will be successful in this field, but IMHO, you can't directly compare the situation. And lets face it, Qatar already has 20% of IAG and 5-10% of American Airlines, and we don't have people running around saying that those groups are going to fail once Qatar can't afford to bankroll them any more... ;)


This is indeed the most likely scenario.
Air Italy was positioning for an AZ failure. The elections brought a nationalistic government who will protect AZ no matter what.
AZ is more than just an airline, it is a motor of the Italian economy. Where Ryanair halves capacity in Italy in the low season and makes a killing in the summer, AZ is there all year-round to ensure that the economy keeps running. AZ is profitable in the summer but in the winter they bleed too much.

With the political elite supporting AZ, Air Italy (IG) will only encounter headwinds.
The bureaucracy in Italy can make simple things impossible. With route announcements such as MXP-ORD and MXP-LAX, IG is calling out AZ to the ring.
Unfortunately, this is going to backfire pretty fast, with US senators shouting all over the place already. Wait until the Italian politicians wake up.
Lega Nord may want to see MXP developped but then again they also have a wealthy NIMBY backing who want to have quiet nights.

As I said many moons ago... I'll believe it when I see the QR B788's lined up in MXP.
Until then, the most likely scenario is that QR will use IG as a cheap sandbox and cut their losses as soon as they take a turn for the worse.
OLB is still not showing any major rebranding of Meridiana into Air Italy.
Air Italy owns OLB (at least the concession to the airport and the facilities). The only way QR is going to achieve anything with IG is if they invest heavily in OLB to make it a new DOH-like hub in the Mediterranean. That can work and would be allowed by the government, but QR will need to go all-in and invest a lot at high risk.
 
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Polot
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:03 pm

VSMUT wrote:
LIPZ wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
and 5-10% of American Airlines

Sorry, could you elaborate more??


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-qata ... SKBN19R1DV

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel/fl ... 419049001/

Those plans were dropped about a month after those articles due to resistance from AA leadership (and others). QR does not have any significant stake in AA. QR does have a 10% stake in LATAM though.
 
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Frontier14
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:45 pm

Waterbomber wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Polot wrote:




With the political elite supporting AZ, Air Italy (IG) will only encounter headwinds.
The bureaucracy in Italy can make simple things impossible..


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Frontier 14
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:46 pm

You mean flag carrier?
 
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PA110
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:56 pm

Even if Alitalia failed tomorrow, Air Italy's uninspired logo and hideous color combination would need a major overhaul to rise to the level of flag carrier. I can't see Italian politicians throwing support behind a purple and mint colored flying Y. It screams lots of bad taste, but not a hint of Italy beyond the name.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:51 pm

You mean flag carrier?
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:20 am

In avlaw, a "flag carrier" receives preferential or even monopolistic rights in the country of its registration. IG will never be AZ, given the history of AZ and the *recent* history of IG.

There is no generally accepted definition of "national carrier".
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:13 am

Double post
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:15 am

According to recent news, Air Italy was stripped off of its continuita territoriale subsidised routes which have all been allocated to Alitalia.
Air Italy and its unions have had a meeting with the government, as an imminent collapse of the carrier and/or delocalisation from OLB are being feared.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.corrie ... c_amp.html

I think that the allocation of the CT to AZ makes sense. IG didn't offer more than point to point services and didnt benefit the greater good. Instead, the subsidies benefitted those who can afford to pay big money, the ones spending a holiday around Olbia, in one of these resorts owned by Qatar Foundation.

The CT with AHO is good news as Blue Air from Romania was covering the route to FCO with poor services.
 
asuflyer
Posts: 452
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Re: Will Air Italy be the national carrier in Italy?

Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:07 pm

Air Italy's third and fourth 737-MAX's have were painted white for storage. It is not clear whether they will take these aircraft.

Image

Source in italian https://italiavola.com/2019/02/21/air-i ... riveranno/

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