rnav2dlrey wrote:

if the A220 can work with the short runway at HVN, i’m sure moxy will take full advantage.

I agree. The reason HVN is so "sad" is that it hasn't had any decently priced service in years. flying to Hubs is expensive and connecting through them are expensive so people drive to BDL, HPN or PVD. if GON and BDR can support the A220 and are willing to work on terminals and amenities Moxy could easily support at least 2-3X weekly to the leiusre destinations at the right price.

orlando and spokes out to mid-size to small cities

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Miamiairport wrote:

The East Coast corridor seems already saturated. Unless Moxy brings something to the table well above the other ULCCs I question the airline being able to gain traction. And that extra "special" is going to cost $$ and its doubtful Moxy will be able to increase fares. The Midwest doesn't have the population numbers of the East Coast. The West Coast corridor is also pretty much saturated as well.

Possibly under utilized airports in populated areas such as TNN, ISP, SFB or BUR. I wonder if Teterboro in NJ could handle commercial traffic? Either way Neeleman is going to find a much more inhospitable environment today than he did in 1999.

I think the entire point of Moxy is to be jetBlue 2.0 and learn from the mistakes of Frontier (doesn't fly anywhere anyone gives a damn about), Spirit (that'll be $8.00 for a bottle of water, sir), and Air Walmart...er, Southwest. Neeleman's whole deal is starting LCC's that are a step up from the competition.

But that costs $$$. And the American public seems to be very happy to undertake a miserable flying experience to save a few bucks. Hell most are so lost in their phone they are clueless to the world around them.

Judging by news reports to date, it'll be P2P on unserved routes that bypass hubs. It'll compete on price - so nicely stimulating demand along with new nonstop service - and it'll use underserved airports, not necessarily secondary airports.

So, go onto CAR, play around with airports - PVD, MHT, JAX, ORF, RIC, GSO, etc., etc., etc. - and come up with PDEWs that look pretty promising, fares on which a descent reduction could be offered to grow the market and revenue, and where the market is leisure-focused. Which airports could support a pretty good number of new routes to gain efficiencies from economies?

Miamiairport wrote:

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Miamiairport wrote:

The East Coast corridor seems already saturated. Unless Moxy brings something to the table well above the other ULCCs I question the airline being able to gain traction. And that extra "special" is going to cost $$ and its doubtful Moxy will be able to increase fares. The Midwest doesn't have the population numbers of the East Coast. The West Coast corridor is also pretty much saturated as well.

Possibly under utilized airports in populated areas such as TNN, ISP, SFB or BUR. I wonder if Teterboro in NJ could handle commercial traffic? Either way Neeleman is going to find a much more inhospitable environment today than he did in 1999.

I think the entire point of Moxy is to be jetBlue 2.0 and learn from the mistakes of Frontier (doesn't fly anywhere anyone gives a damn about), Spirit (that'll be $8.00 for a bottle of water, sir), and Air Walmart...er, Southwest. Neeleman's whole deal is starting LCC's that are a step up from the competition.

But that costs $$$. And the American public seems to be very happy to undertake a miserable flying experience to save a few bucks. Hell most are so lost in their phone they are clueless to the world around them.

There is no reason they shouldn't save a few bucks. There is a gap for the smaller markets. As the airlines have consolidated and gotten larger, the return on capital requirements and other metrics mean concentration on and in the larger markets. There is an opportunity. An innovative model that is well capitalized (Moxy on paper) can have the "Southwest" effect for smaller markets. It is complete fallacy that the "American public settles for miserable flying conditions." Airlines are responding with stratified offerings, versus days past when you had Economy or First as the options. But the bigger driver of the "miserable" flying conditions (not saying they are) is that airlines operate in a natural monoply type environment, there is not much consumer choice, esepcially non-stop on the smaller markets.

The capital requirements are going to be massive, but for this reason, airlines like Moxy can make an impact and gain market share.

Based on what he did at JFK with B6, I am sure the Port Authority would love and bend over backwards to get him to build service to SWF.

N292UX wrote:

Personally, I'd really want to see MEM as a focus city for them. I doubt they'd do hubs but MEM has a huge, rather vacant terminal just asking for an airline to expand there.

But where would they go? With B closed until 2021/2022 for renovation there is perhaps 3-4 free gates total right now?

spinkid wrote:

rnav2dlrey wrote:

if the A220 can work with the short runway at HVN, i’m sure moxy will take full advantage.

I agree. The reason HVN is so "sad" is that it hasn't had any decently priced service in years. flying to Hubs is expensive and connecting through them are expensive so people drive to BDL, HPN or PVD. if GON and BDR can support the A220 and are willing to work on terminals and amenities Moxy could easily support at least 2-3X weekly to the leiusre destinations at the right price.

I don't believe GON has a terminal that can support airline service anymore. Groton-New London hasn't had airline service in 15 years and think they gave up on trying to lure anyone there with two small runways and Providence TF Green a mere 45 minute drive away and Bradley about an hour away. BDL would be the best bet in the Connecticut area. I believe also CEF has something going on with their passenger terminal... it's barely used and charters even barely go into Westover for troops even anymore. I could be wrong but I think CEF's pax terminal was closed or something to that effect.

DaProf wrote:

N292UX wrote:

Personally, I'd really want to see MEM as a focus city for them. I doubt they'd do hubs but MEM has a huge, rather vacant terminal just asking for an airline to expand there.

But where would they go? With B closed until 2021/2022 for renovation there is perhaps 3-4 free gates total right now?

I'd assume that's where they would move once that is complete. They aren't going to be even up and running for probably a year or so, so I'd assume it'd be close to opening. I'd say they initially run a smaller operation out of 3-4 gates, and then expand once they are able to acquire more gates.

StrandedAtMKG wrote:

Miamiairport wrote:

The East Coast corridor seems already saturated. Unless Moxy brings something to the table well above the other ULCCs I question the airline being able to gain traction. And that extra "special" is going to cost $$ and its doubtful Moxy will be able to increase fares. The Midwest doesn't have the population numbers of the East Coast. The West Coast corridor is also pretty much saturated as well.

Possibly under utilized airports in populated areas such as TNN, ISP, SFB or BUR. I wonder if Teterboro in NJ could handle commercial traffic? Either way Neeleman is going to find a much more inhospitable environment today than he did in 1999.

I think the entire point of Moxy is to be jetBlue 2.0 and learn from the mistakes of Frontier (doesn't fly anywhere anyone gives a damn about), Spirit (that'll be $8.00 for a bottle of water, sir), and Air Walmart...er, Southwest. Neeleman's whole deal is starting LCC's that are a step up from the competition.

If F9 doesn't fly to anywhere anyone gives a damn about, they wouldn't be flying now would they? I flew them once. Not again. They drop routes quickly. Still, they have a funky niche and pax that get on their planes.

N292UX wrote:

Personally, I'd really want to see MEM as a focus city for them. I doubt they'd do hubs but MEM has a huge, rather vacant terminal just asking for an airline to expand there.

They can certainly overnight there. Maybe we see them base few planes here or there like the Euro carriers do.

Just remember Memphis is in the process of rebuilding B concourse and everything is operating out of A and C. In 2021 everything moves to the new B. The southwest hall of B isn't being touched this round but 2/3rds will basically be brand new.
MEM spents 10s of Millions getting A and C ready for two years of goos use but both will mothballed in 2021. Last look at the gate assignments for the redone one show 2 to 3 not spoken for with the Southwest hall sitting there in the current state with the international gate down on the end.

N292UX wrote:

DaProf wrote:

N292UX wrote:

Personally, I'd really want to see MEM as a focus city for them. I doubt they'd do hubs but MEM has a huge, rather vacant terminal just asking for an airline to expand there.

But where would they go? With B closed until 2021/2022 for renovation there is perhaps 3-4 free gates total right now?

I'd assume that's where they would move once that is complete. They aren't going to be even up and running for probably a year or so, so I'd assume it'd be close to opening. I'd say they initially run a smaller operation out of 3-4 gates, and then expand once they are able to acquire more gates.

Moxy's start up nearly coincides with the opening of the new B concourse at MEM. This means nothing at this point.

I'd live to see them be the one to connect MEM to the West Coast and use some thru passengers to new east coast destination.

He added that the airline will fly from the U.S. to Europe and South America, avoiding competitors’ hubs. The A220-300 the airline will fly has the capability of taking off from “really short runways, and can fly for 11 hours,” Neeleman said.

This quote is quite something, what does he know about the A220-300 to state 11 hrs of flying time and TATL and South America flights. 11hrs covers lots of US airports without TATL.

Interestingly enough, MEM gets lots of tourists from Brazil. Must be Elvis. Love to see it tried. I smell some working with Azul on routes

JetBlue founder David Neeleman said he’s ready for when competitors try to crush his proposed new U.S. low-cost carrier when it starts flying in 2021.

“I’ll just do stuff they can’t do,” Neeleman said, adding that Brazil’s Azul, which he also founded and serves as chairman, will feed traffic to the new airline, code-named Moxy

DAY is another "airport with plenty of empty gates" candidate with the advantage of more of a central location. You could make the argument it's a secondary airport for Cincinnati if you really wanted to do some deep thinking.

Screams cos to me, alternate airport, low airport costs, alternative to Denver.

WaywardMemphian wrote:

N292UX wrote:

DaProf wrote:

But where would they go? With B closed until 2021/2022 for renovation there is perhaps 3-4 free gates total right now?

I'd assume that's where they would move once that is complete. They aren't going to be even up and running for probably a year or so, so I'd assume it'd be close to opening. I'd say they initially run a smaller operation out of 3-4 gates, and then expand once they are able to acquire more gates.

Moxy's start up nearly coincides with the opening of the new B concourse at MEM. This means nothing at this point.

I'd live to see them be the one to connect MEM to the West Coast and use some thru passengers to new east coast destination.

I definitely think there's some potential on the west coast from MEM. I know DL runs MEM-LAX but they're the only ones. Nobody runs MEM-SFO, but G4 does run MEM-OAK IIRC. Nobody runs MEM-SAN, MEM-PDX, MEM-SJC, or MEM-SEA. Moxy could possibly run at least some of those routes from MEM. I could also maybe see AS eventually enter MEM via SEA, but that's a discussion for a different day.

This article mentions FTW, GYY, ISP, FRG, BUR, BLV, OAK, ONT, SFB, AZA, PVD, PIE and TTN of possible selected markets by Moxy.

https://www.smartertravel.com/finally-a ... s-airline/

Mr, Neelman… NEW HAVEN, CT … pretty please !!??

SCHATC422 wrote:

spinkid wrote:

rnav2dlrey wrote:

if the A220 can work with the short runway at HVN, i’m sure moxy will take full advantage.

I agree. The reason HVN is so "sad" is that it hasn't had any decently priced service in years. flying to Hubs is expensive and connecting through them are expensive so people drive to BDL, HPN or PVD. if GON and BDR can support the A220 and are willing to work on terminals and amenities Moxy could easily support at least 2-3X weekly to the leiusre destinations at the right price.

I don't believe GON has a terminal that can support airline service anymore. Groton-New London hasn't had airline service in 15 years and think they gave up on trying to lure anyone there with two small runways and Providence TF Green a mere 45 minute drive away and Bradley about an hour away. BDL would be the best bet in the Connecticut area. I believe also CEF has something going on with their passenger terminal... it's barely used and charters even barely go into Westover for troops even anymore. I could be wrong but I think CEF's pax terminal was closed or something to that effect.

GON still has a terminal, its just there with charter and car rental counters now. It could be used again with some mods for a TSA checkpoint.

CEF only ever had that silly Skybus in there .. and they used one of those temporary cheesy "blow-up tent" things as a terminal. Not sure if its still there or if someone stuck a pin in it.

HVN has the most potential and probably the biggest market to draw from. Their terminal is semi crap, but its big enough and has potential for being expanded. Its got a working jetway with a pretty good sized holding area.

BDR (Bridgeport) is the one that's totally hosed as far as a terminal. It was knocked down and replaced with a hangar. BDR's days for scheduled service are definitely over.

Does anyone think that Moxy will succeed?

Samrnpage wrote:

Does anyone think that Moxy will succeed?

Or not succeed?

I for one believe it will because David's track record.

Samrnpage wrote:

Does anyone think that Moxy will succeed?

Has David Neeleman failed yet? He is the next best thing in the airline industry to Mr Herbert Kelleher. So, no.

nine4nine wrote:

Samrnpage wrote:

Does anyone think that Moxy will succeed?

Has David Neeleman failed yet? He is the next best thing in the airline industry to Mr Herbert Kelleher. So, no.

Yes both were geniuses in the industry. However, both also were favored by certain factors. WN that few airlines had the ability to offer fares people could afford with the belief that people would take low fares over amenities. B6 was that air travel for the coach passenger did not need to be the increasingly miserable experience it was becoming. B6 offered AVOD something new in the industry. But even now B6 has had to drop some of its original business model. It's become more like a traditional legacy airline.

The industry has changed drastically over the past 20 years. The airlines have concentrated and all for exception of premium cabins and Y+ have moved more towards the ULCC business model. Moxy will need to bring something new and exciting to the table but without heavy costs, other than flying out of under utilized airport. Neeleman will have his worked cut out for him.

Quick. Someone build an airport at Nauvoo.

Well speaking from my location, I don’t see Allegiant giving them room at JQF... so I suppose they end up here at CLT should they decided to come this way.

Will they have a codeshare with JetBlue?

stlgph wrote:

Quick. Someone build an airport at Nauvoo.

Double daily to SLC

Frontier 14

Shuttle service!

Moxy would be perfect for TTN, with its A220, it can utilize the 6006' runway and go to the destinations that F9 cannot (anything west of MSP and in the south MSY). The 220 could reach LAX (not that I'm saying that should be a destination). As long as the NIMBYs don't blow up the deal like they did with Southwest back in the 90s. They'd have a new 4 gate terminal (2 for F9 2 for MXY) around 2021-2022 and it would attract the crowd that doesn't want ULCC service. They'd be limited to a 2 gate 22 flight station but I don't think there is a better alternative to TTN for Philly and you get the southern EWR catchment.

They should put an offer in to buy Detroit City Airport from the city of Detroit and then they can own the airport and operate they hub out of there as downtown Detroit is becoming a very trendy and hip city.

klm617 wrote:

They should put an offer in to buy Detroit City Airport from the city of Detroit and then they can own the airport and operate they hub out of there as downtown Detroit is becoming a very trendy and hip city.

I was waiting for when we’d hear from you. DET isn’t really airline ready. And Moxy isn’t going to invest in getting it up to snuff. Not sure WCAA would approve it either. Every pax flying out of DET is one less for DTW. It can’t support 2 airports.

Would MLB be a good airport for Moxy?

You guys sure are making a lot of absolute statements about a company that doesn’t really even exist in the flesh yet, has no name, and has no actual public strategy. Everything you see other than the A220 order is pure PR fluff to help raise money and keep potential competitors confused.

For all we know this could be a true hub and spoke airline with a traditional route network.

Let’s let this mature before we say what they will and won’t be willing to serve.

jetmatt777 wrote:

You guys sure are making a lot of absolute statements about a company that doesn’t really even exist in the flesh yet, has no name, and has no actual public strategy. Everything you see other than the A220 order is pure PR fluff to help raise money and keep potential competitors confused.

For all we know this could be a true hub and spoke airline with a traditional route network.

Let’s let this mature before we say what they will and won’t be willing to serve.

No business would reveal their strategy in a public manner.

To that end, yes I agree to some extent this may be a PR stunt. However, even without the PR attention, Moxy stands a really good shot at it working because the market is ripe for another disruption and at the helm of this pseudo-corporation is a gentlemen with an amazing track record

New Castle, Delaware. 0 competition to anywhere from there

Prost wrote:

I would like to see a Midwest point to point carrier that can then branch out to both coasts concurrently.

A while back, some people associated with Midwest Airlines were reportedly looking for investors to start something new in the region. Not much news for a while though,

WaywardMemphian wrote:

He added that the airline will fly from the U.S. to Europe and South America, avoiding competitors’ hubs. The A220-300 the airline will fly has the capability of taking off from “really short runways, and can fly for 11 hours,” Neeleman said.

This quote is quite something, what does he know about the A220-300 to state 11 hrs of flying time and TATL and South America flights. 11hrs covers lots of US airports without TATL.

Interestingly enough, MEM gets lots of tourists from Brazil. Must be Elvis. Love to see it tried. I smell some working with Azul on routes

JetBlue founder David Neeleman said he’s ready for when competitors try to crush his proposed new U.S. low-cost carrier when it starts flying in 2021.

“I’ll just do stuff they can’t do,” Neeleman said, adding that Brazil’s Azul, which he also founded and serves as chairman, will feed traffic to the new airline, code-named Moxy

This sounds to me so astonishing, I wished I read that wrong.
When they said “11 hours in A220s”, they meant a stopover flight, right? If so, they seems to be able to fly mildly longer with 1 stopover for having the ability to actually fly 8 hrs nonstop (at least theoretically).
11 hours is still a terrifying quantity of time, enough even for a TPAC. That is an amazing amount of distance, which Moxy could exploit to discover unserved or underserved markets. Had Moxy’s model been successful, they will be the next Southwest.

klm617 wrote:

They should put an offer in to buy Detroit City Airport from the city of Detroit and then they can own the airport and operate they hub out of there as downtown Detroit is becoming a very trendy and hip city.

The City of Detroit has said that it would cost $83 million just to bring DET back to operating capabilities.

Moxy has $100 million in total startup funding to buy things like... airplanes. You do the math.

winginit wrote:

The City of Detroit has said that it would cost $83 million just to bring DET back to operating capabilities.

Moxy has $100 million in total startup funding to buy things like... airplanes. You do the math.

Of course they'd not buy the airport, but they would persuade the city to invest in the airport so they can use it. Why pay for it yourself if someone else can pay for you?

Samrnpage wrote:

Does anyone think that Moxy will succeed?

I think they will. They'll follow the Ryanair business model which is very successful in Europe. Why wouldn't the same thing work in America?

What do you think the name Moxy stands for. I'm not sure about the X and Y, but M O no doubt stands for Michael O'Leary.

Not sure why PIE and SFB are getting so much love..if they do want routes with zero competition and very P2P focused, going into a market/airport with a G4 stronghold and nearly all major N-S P2P routes, that doesn't make much sense.

Not to mention I think at least at PIE, it's pretty tight on space with G4 already.

I think everyone is sleeping on LAL. They have been wanting and working for commercial service. It's smack dab between TPA metro and MCO metro and has zero competition. And is in Polk county, so in theory Moxy could work for county incentives that they might not get from Hillsborough/Pinellas or Orange/Seminole counties.

CLTRampRat wrote:

Well speaking from my location, I don’t see Allegiant giving them room at JQF... so I suppose they end up here at CLT should they decided to come this way.

Will they have a codeshare with JetBlue?

Is Concord slot or capacity restricted then? Otherwise they can just move in and there's nothing Allegiant can do about that.

For sure we won't see them at Charlotte, far too big and therefor too expensive. Concord is much cheaper.

CLTDAL wrote:

I think MEM is an EXCELLENT city to start a hub operation. Afterall, it was Republics hub back in the 80's and when NWA bought them, they kept it. It is now being redone and will be beautiful! Geographically its in a great location for service all over and would compete very nicely with ATL and CLT. To me, its a complete No Brainer as to why it hasn't been made into a hub by a new airline. I always thought B6 should have taken it over. They dont need 2 Focus Cities in Florida. Also....its a HUGE and probably the biggest hub for FEDEX. The city is a bit rundown, but its coming around and has a huge music scene and soul food downtown similar to that of Austin, TX. I say GO MEM!!!

very near the pop mean of the us too.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

CLTRampRat wrote:

Well speaking from my location, I don’t see Allegiant giving them room at JQF... so I suppose they end up here at CLT should they decided to come this way.

Will they have a codeshare with JetBlue?

Is Concord slot or capacity restricted then? Otherwise they can just move in and there's nothing Allegiant can do about that.

For sure we won't see them at Charlotte, far too big and therefor too expensive. Concord is much cheaper.

JQF is not slot controlled (neither is CLT).
The problem at Concord is space. They have 2 gates and one hardstand. Thinking about it this morning with a clear mind I suppose they could squeeze them in between Allegiant “banks”. It’ll boil down to Moxys turn times and staffing. Trego-Dugan Aviation has the Allegiant contract at Concord, I’d imagine they’d get the contract for Moxy.

Also there’s only one ticket counter.
It’ll be a tight squeeze.

VS4ever wrote:

F27500 wrote:

I think there will be focus cities (as destination points from these smaller cities) … but hubs? No .. he has already said its not going to be a hub based airline.

Ive also heard the "Moxy" was just the working name of this project .. and the airline will actually be named something else. Anyone else heard that?

Extract from the source I quoted a couple of comments above.

FORGET ABOUT THE NAME MOXY
Neeleman said the airline probably won’t be named Moxy, which is the name he initially wanted to call JetBlue. Neeleman said his brother works for a branding law firm and has been in touch with Marriott, which has the Moxy Hotels brand in his portfolio.

“I could call this airline crap and people will love it because of the way I’m going to treat them,” Neeleman said

Neelman seems quite arrogant. Like JetBlue, his influence won't last forever. With JetBlue's new labor unions and cuts in service levels the are no different than the rest now. You can't compete with the likes of Spirit and Allegiant while offering something luxurious.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Samrnpage wrote:

Does anyone think that Moxy will succeed?

I think they will. They'll follow the Ryanair business model which is very successful in Europe. Why wouldn't the same thing work in America?

What do you think the name Moxy stands for. I'm not sure about the X and Y, but M O no doubt stands for Michael O'Leary.

How is the Ryanair business model different from the F9, G4, or NK business model (which are all fairly successful here in the US)?

DeltaRules wrote:

DAY is another "airport with plenty of empty gates" candidate with the advantage of more of a central location. You could make the argument it's a secondary airport for Cincinnati if you really wanted to do some deep thinking.

You don't even really need to do that deep of thinking. Just go back and look at when CVG was still a large hub with sky high prices. Of course, with G4 and F9 now at CVG and DL's drawdown, I don't think those sky high prices are coming back, which would make getting people to DAY much tougher.

TTailedTiger wrote:

VS4ever wrote:

F27500 wrote:

I think there will be focus cities (as destination points from these smaller cities) … but hubs? No .. he has already said its not going to be a hub based airline.

Ive also heard the "Moxy" was just the working name of this project .. and the airline will actually be named something else. Anyone else heard that?

Extract from the source I quoted a couple of comments above.

FORGET ABOUT THE NAME MOXY
Neeleman said the airline probably won’t be named Moxy, which is the name he initially wanted to call JetBlue. Neeleman said his brother works for a branding law firm and has been in touch with Marriott, which has the Moxy Hotels brand in his portfolio.

“I could call this airline crap and people will love it because of the way I’m going to treat them,” Neeleman said

Neelman seems quite arrogant. Like JetBlue, his influence won't last forever. With JetBlue's new labor unions and cuts in service levels the are no different than the rest now. You can't compete with the likes of Spirit and Allegiant while offering something luxurious.

Except Neelman isn't at the helm of JetBlue presently. In fact, I don't believe David has been involved at JetBlue since May 21, 2008.

cledaybuck wrote:

How is the Ryanair business model different from the F9, G4, or NK business model (which are all fairly successful here in the US)?

It's different from Spirit and Frontier in the fact that they fly from secondary airports and don't offer connections. They're strictly point-to-point.

In such they're most comparable to Allegiant, however they're going one step further than Allegiant. They're doing the things that Ryanair does, but Allegiant doesn't do. For example transfers to and from the airport. This is fairly common in Europe but new to America. No American airline does this so far, while in Europe Ryanair, Wizzair and several other airlines all sell transfers. A local subcontractor offers a shuttle service between the city and the airport and tickets are sold through the airline. That's one of the things why secondary airports are so successful in Europe. It's not public transport, it's an arranged shared ride.

Also look at the fares. In America the average fare difference between a ULCC and a legacy airline is about 20%. In Europe this can be up to 60% or higher. You won't find the ultra low Ryanair fares anywhere in America. If Americans have to pay 60 dollars for a ticket on an ULCC they call that cheap, if Europeans have to pay 60 euros for a ticket on an ULCC they'll most likely pass. Too expensive. Ryanair offers fares as low as 10 euros or sometimes even less. The euro and dollar are more or less worth the same, so you can compare them.

Moxy could perhaps bring those ultra low Ryanair fares to America. Of course only a few seats per flight, after that the price goes up. They make a loss on those seats, but it's good publicity. Their real earnings are in ancillary fees, which are more extensive than anywhere else. Rental cars, hotel rooms, it can all be booked through the airline. You don't just book a flight, you book everything else you need along with it. The flight is cheap, but all together it can be quite an amount of money.