Nevoljniletac
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Fear of the upcoming flight

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:27 pm

Hello,

Sorry for introducing myself in this way, and maybe this is not right place to post this kind of issue but, however, would like to find some comfort here....or not

I have always been fearful flyer, flying only when I have to, and with the special preparations every time before a take off. This time I have two flights, from Montenegro to Belgrade, and after that to Bucharest, operated by Air Serbia. I know that this company is among the best in the region (that is not something extremely hard to be, considering other states), but the thought that those flights will be operated/conducted by two ATRs skyrockets anxiety.

My biggest concerns in that regards are - age of the planes (between 20 and 30 years old, depending on the company's needs and schedule) and cold conditions here in the region, because I have heard about lot of accidents caused by icing). Of course, there might be some other issues like turbulence or smt similar,,but for the time being it's lagging behind first two reassons. I am.supposed to fly on Sunday (first flight at 8:25 from Podgorica to Belgrade, and second one at 13:15 from Belgrade to Bucharest).
Should I be worried? Thanks in advance
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:06 am

As long as proper maintenance is done on the planes, the age of the planes won't matter. There are carriers in the US operating planes for 20-30 years, some even longer than that.
Captain Kevin
 
EBJ68
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:28 am

A company's good reputation hinges on sound maintenance that allows the planes to be available to make the scheduled flights. From what you tell us, the company has a good reputation which means it consistently provides good service to its customers. I'm confident you will have good flights.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:42 am

Look at the operational record of the flight numbers you’re flying in the last 7 days. For that matter, look at all Air Serbia ATR flights in the last week. Or in the last year. Or ever. What you’ll find is there have been absolutely no fatal accidents at all! And the same applies to almost all western airline/aircraft combos - and, even in the rare cases you find one, it’s almost always an isolated incident not a pattern that’s likely to repeat itself.

The fact is that crashes in commercial aviation are extremely rare, and the chances of you being one of the unlucky ones is less than you winning the lottery. I’d be more concerned with the drive to the airport than the flight itself. :)

Have a nice trip!
Sveinn
Last edited by SRQKEF on Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
Nevoljniletac
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:40 am

Thanks for boosting up my confidence, because I am here among experts.
By reading some posts (not on this website) some people claim that ATR as an airplane is not reliable, due to some problems with de-icing and other things. Likewise, they said it is more prone to turbulence because lower cruising altitude and its small size. And here I am, flying in January, while temperature outside is bellow zero. Me personally, when I have to, I am fond of flying on the jet airplane, rather than on a turboprop.
You wouldn't say that the (smaller) turboprops are less safe than big jets?
And couple of more questions but to start first with this one - how come that something 25 years old is still able to fly, despite maintainance, and to cope with turbulence, thunderstorm, strong winds etc etc, when some models of car are not able to drive after 10 years?
 
upperdeckfan
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:25 am

Nevoljniletac wrote:
And couple of more questions but to start first with this one - how come that something 25 years old is still able to fly, despite maintainance, and to cope with turbulence, thunderstorm, strong winds etc etc, when some models of car are not able to drive after 10 years?


Some factors I'd list:

Time and money spent on a commercial aircarft maintenance have nothing to do with that of a car.
Cars are owned by individuals while commercial aircraft are owned by companies and are a so called "public service". Companies care about public image, most of individulas do not.
If an aircraft fails while in the air there are much more chances to end up dead than if a car fails while on the road, that perception means that most of individuals rather spend their money elsewhere than checking/maintaining their owned cars.
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763, 732,733,735,737,738,739,752,722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,M83,M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,333,343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,CR9,CR10,
E175,E190,ATR42,DSH8,CS1,CS3
 
timh4000
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:09 pm

How many people have died from the planes and the airlines flying them? The combo is of some importance btw. Its almost a certainty that the pilots up front driving want to keep on living as much as you do. So they are not going to put themselves in a situation where there is a high possibility of failure leading to the end of their lives. Another fact, while turbulence often cannot be avoided, many pilots aren't any more fond of it as we are. It's a part of their job and they are trained how to maintain, take off/land in it. I just flew in a cj700 yesterday from PHL-ORF 35m airtime topping out at 16000ft. Due to the proximity of the flight, it was the same weather. The crj700 holds between 66-78, 78 single group. Mine had 3 class. Anyway, solid moderate turbulence for take off and landing. This small regional jet handled it quite well, along with a skillful pilot who brought it in with as good of a landing as could be expected under the circumstances. Turbulence won't bring a plane down.
Its rational to have the feelings you do, most people have it to some degree. I'm no fan of the rollercoaster stuff. Not a big fan of the 1st minute or 2 of take off. Once I see and feel some altitude and some speed gained I slip into my normal at peace state, even with the turbulence.
 
smallmj
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:22 pm

Airplanes last much longer than cars because they are built to much better specifications and are expertly maintained. There is a huge amount of redundancy in an airplane, and there are strict international standards for maintenance.

Propeller planes may seem a little louder and shakier than jets, but they are no less safe. Also, just because a plane is 20 years old doesn't mean that the critical parts like engines are that old. Parts get replaced all the time as part of maintenance

I sympatize with your fear of flying. I have a fear of heights so that I won't go above the second rung on a ladder. But fears like ours are generally irrational. All we can do is look at the facts to try to overcome our fears. And the facts show that flying is much safer than driving a car.
 
Nevoljniletac
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:03 pm

Thanks very much for your support. Maybe I am chicken, but I have these kind of episodes every time when I have to get on board. Especially couple of nights before...my brain unfolds different scenarios (usually worst case), and usually can't be focused on anything else but upcoming flight. Let's say that things are better if I am flying along with some more experienced friend (in the terms of flying) and he/she just calms me down when I start making those idiotic faces because of turbulence, engine sound changing, or any other "odd" sign that I consider as a doomsday moment. Likewise, I prefer flying during the summertime, rather than winter/fall season. Somehow good weather I always associate with a smooth ride. But this time I am flying alone ( 1 hour, and 1,5 hours connected flights) and it's a winter time. I know I know, for you it's walking in a park....but for me...
As some of you said, in my case it's a blend of fear of heights and fear of losing control. Yes, I am aware that pilots also want to live as I do, and they wouldn't do anything to jeopardize their lifes, but sometimes I have a feeling that we, as a humans, after getting used to doing something, become automatic, less aware and cautios (like, if you have a milion of km crossed by your car, you are not so vigilant and careful as you were when you had maybe couple of dozens of thousands km). Maybe I wasn't so clear in my comparison but you got my point, and it might stand the same for pilots and mechanics.
I know that this fear os debilitating because I am not able to visit and see the places that I want, but it's just stronger than me. I wish some of my friends colleagues could travel with me this me...it would be much easier.
Just another aviation related question - who controls airliners? Can they fake that they have implemented some recommendation or regulations issued by international institution?
 
timh4000
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:00 pm

When I lived in San Jose California for 2 years, I lived just miles from the airport. And I saw dozens of planes on final just a few minutes from landing every day. 40-50 or perhaps more just from one medium sized if that airport. In the u.s. alone there's
Dozens of airports busier than SJC just in the U.S. alone, not to mention the several dozen airports outside of the u s. That really puts into perspective when you are watching just one of over 100 airports worldwide of similar if not greater in size. What might be helpful would be to watch flight deck videos on YouTube. Theres hun dr reds of them that show how detailed and prepared they are for contingencies of serious failures. How the planes themselves annunciate altitude and other possible issues. I still am not a fan of the 1st part of take off, the 1st minute maybe. Although when I have rare busy flying like late last year and the beginning of this year, that seems to fade too. Good luck with your fears, flying statistically is by far the safest ways to travel, or really, just being in a plane in the air in all but a few airlines worldwide and other than some war torn areas. It's literally about the safest thing and place you can be period.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:22 pm

Nevoljniletac wrote:
By reading some posts (not on this website) some people claim that ATR as an airplane is not reliable, due to some problems with de-icing and other things. Likewise, they said it is more prone to turbulence because lower cruising altitude and its small size. And here I am, flying in January, while temperature outside is bellow zero. Me personally, when I have to, I am fond of flying on the jet airplane, rather than on a turboprop.
You wouldn't say that the (smaller) turboprops are less safe than big jets?


I fly the ATR. I've flown the very oldest -72 in service, as well as aircraft straight from the factory. It's a solid little airplane, very reliable. The engines just keep running. I flew with some former JAT ATR pilots too, and they know their stuff, really skilled guys. A properly maintained old 72-202 is a really good plane (in my opinion they fly better than a new -600), and these belong in that category. It is also a very simple plane, there is very little equipment that can fail in the first place. There are ATRs flying in Asia with absolutely deplorable levels of service, so it really says a lot about the ATR that they continue to soldier on under those conditions.

The stories about icing problems are vastly exaggerated. It was a result of a crew-error, and an aircraft that wasn't operated as it should have been. ATR's have been flying in much worse conditions than seen in the Balkans, up in Scandinavia, right since the type was introduced in the 1980s. They fly in Northern Canada and Russia as well.

As for turbulence, it is true to an extent, but a competent crew will avoid most of it. Sometimes there is no way around it, but the ATR can handle quite a bit. For the flights you are taking, they are so short that a jet wouldn't even be able to reach the high levels where they are out of turbulence, but would be bouncing about in the clouds as well.



Nevoljniletac wrote:
And couple of more questions but to start first with this one - how come that something 25 years old is still able to fly, despite maintainance, and to cope with turbulence, thunderstorm, strong winds etc etc, when some models of car are not able to drive after 10 years?


Airplanes are much more expensive and built to higher standards. They are also subject to mandatory maintenance and inspections multiple times a week.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:24 am

ATR de-icing boots were redesigned after the icing incident(s) in question here. There's nothing to worry about in terms of icing.

As for turbulence, I don't like it either, but the number of airplane accidents caused by turbulence is very close to zero. I once asked a pilot when they worry about turbulence, and he said "when the wings go like this" and then he put his arms out and then brought them up over his head and clapped his hands together. Then he laughed.

There were a couple of accidents I can think of in the 1950's and 60's that could be partially or mostly attributed to turbulence, but that was before the phenomenon was very well understood, so those accidents wouldn't happen today. And even they still had other factors involved (like pilots flying too close to active volcanoes for sightseeing purposes, which also wouldn't happen today.)

It's sort of like worrying about a modern cruise ship hitting an iceberg and sinking. The fact that it happened once more than 100 years ago doesn't mean it could happen now. Certainly that's not to say nothing bad could ever happen, but it would be by random chance if anything did, and you have more likelihood of being struck by a bus walking on the sidewalk than you do of anything happening in an ATR. Just think of all the things that can go wrong in your daily life, and yet you never even thought about those things until I just reminded you, right?
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Airstud
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:53 am

Nevoljniletac wrote:
Should I be worried?


No.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
coolian2
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:14 am

The ATR 72 feels like a small A320
Q300/ATR72-600/737-200/-300/-400/-700/-800/A320/767-200/-300/757-200/777-300ER/
747-200/-300/-400/ER/A340-300/A380-800/MD-83/-88/CRJ-700/-900
 
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VapourTrails
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:06 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Nevoljniletac wrote:
By reading some posts (not on this website) some people claim that ATR as an airplane is not reliable, due to some problems with de-icing and other things. Likewise, they said it is more prone to turbulence because lower cruising altitude and its small size. And here I am, flying in January, while temperature outside is bellow zero. Me personally, when I have to, I am fond of flying on the jet airplane, rather than on a turboprop. You wouldn't say that the (smaller) turboprops are less safe than big jets?


I fly the ATR. I've flown the very oldest -72 in service, as well as aircraft straight from the factory. It's a solid little airplane, very reliable. The engines just keep running. I flew with some former JAT ATR pilots too, and they know their stuff, really skilled guys. A properly maintained old 72-202 is a really good plane (in my opinion they fly better than a new -600), and these belong in that category. It is also a very simple plane, there is very little equipment that can fail in the first place. There are ATRs flying in Asia with absolutely deplorable levels of service, so it really says a lot about the ATR that they continue to soldier on under those conditions.

The stories about icing problems are vastly exaggerated. It was a result of a crew-error, and an aircraft that wasn't operated as it should have been. ATR's have been flying in much worse conditions than seen in the Balkans, up in Scandinavia, right since the type was introduced in the 1980s. They fly in Northern Canada and Russia as well.

As for turbulence, it is true to an extent, but a competent crew will avoid most of it. Sometimes there is no way around it, but the ATR can handle quite a bit. For the flights you are taking, they are so short that a jet wouldn't even be able to reach the high levels where they are out of turbulence, but would be bouncing about in the clouds as well.

Airplanes are much more expensive and built to higher standards. They are also subject to mandatory maintenance and inspections multiple times a week.


:thumbsup:

I’ve flown on the ATR72-600 three times now, with Virgin Australia. I think about the airline I am flying with, more than the aircraft in these experiences. That is a good way to look at it. The cabin is a little cramped, compared to a jet, or even the Dash 8. I like the fact that they fly lower, and you can be distracted by the lovely scenery as you fly along, listening to some relaxing music to accompany it. OK, the weather was fine in my cases, but the music does help regardless.

Nevoljniletac wrote:
Thanks very much for your support. Maybe I am chicken, but I have these kind of episodes every time when I have to get on board. Especially couple of nights before...my brain unfolds different scenarios (usually worst case), and usually can't be focused on anything else but upcoming flight. Let's say that things are better if I am flying along with some more experienced friend (in the terms of flying) and he/she just calms me down when I start making those idiotic faces because of turbulence, engine sound changing, or any other "odd" sign that I consider as a doomsday moment. Likewise, I prefer flying during the summertime, rather than winter/fall season. Somehow good weather I always associate with a smooth ride. As some of you said, in my case it's a blend of fear of heights and fear of losing control. I know that this fear is debilitating because I am not able to visit and see the places that I want, but it's just stronger than me.


If you think or say it is stronger than you, it will continue to be for you. One of the catalysts for me was that one time in the last two years, I was in the line, waiting to board my flight, and I turned around and looked at the aircraft parked at the gate, and a weighted blanket of doom fell down over me, it looked and felt like the plane could really fatally injure me shall we say, and it was only parked at the gate! On the other side of the glass. It was then that I said to myself, enough is enough. The game is up. I’m getting too old for this. I am ready to deal. A sense of humour really works well in moments when the situation calls for it, or maybe that was an afterthought, rather than at the time. You need to find your ways of solving your issues, by yourself or with help - I think that there is not always a prescribed method of approach. One size does not fit all.

Often it could well be things on the ground happening in your life that are not actually connected with the flying that are in part causing it. For me, the only thing I have found now going forward with the problem seemingly gone, is that days out from the flights I get numb. This seems to be a recurring pattern - not a one-off. I don’t get excited about my upcoming flight. I feel desensitised with mental discomfort, even irritability. A minor detail to the actual journey I say now. Then by the day of the flight and by the time I board I feel great! I don’t feel any anxiety, as if it was never there to start with. Again, the key is to finding what solution is to work for you. :thumbsup:

Please let us know how you get on when you return. :thumbsup:
A.net member: 2001-2004, 2014-
 
VSMUT
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:10 pm

VapourTrails wrote:
or even the Dash 8. I like the fact that they fly lower, and you can be distracted by the lovely scenery as you fly along, listening to some relaxing music to accompany it. OK, the weather was fine in my cases, but the music does help regardless.


The ATR cabin is actually a bit bigger than the Dash 8. It doesn't have the intruding wing-box either. It is actually a tad wider and taller than the CRJ too! But to be fair, the Virgin Australia -600s have a really nice interior. The same can't be said about the Air Serbia ATRs. The seats are older, the overhead lockers are smaller. The old -202s are also really noisy, with the 4-bladed paddle-blade propellers.
The view with a high-winged aircraft is really awesome though, and the scenery in the Balkans is awesome.
 
Nevoljniletac
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:06 pm

Thank you very much kind people. Reading your posts made me "braver", so glad that I have found sympathy here. Still afraid nut at least, little bit more confident. Just will have to find a way to distract my mind from noisy engines and bumpy road from time to time. But tricky thing is how to distract your mind from your environment when the engines are shouting like hell. Last time when I flew on ATR, I was shouting in order to be heard by the person next to me. Likewise, speaking of Balkan's scenery, it is amazingly beautiful, but every time when I look trought the window I think "I wish I was flying over Germany,France,Hungary....flat countries, if something went wrong, we could "land" only on mountains....no terrain for emergency landing". However, hope that "force will be wit me"...definitely I have to work on this because I am literally disabled from traveling and living a life in a full swing. Of course, I will take a pill to calm down myself little bit.
If I were lucky, you would send you feedback tomorrow night on my trips...if not, you would read about it in every media outlet:)) black humor:)
Last edited by Nevoljniletac on Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Nevoljniletac
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:08 pm

Sorry for so many typos, but jittery takes it toll little bit, so I am not focused on spelling:)
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:01 pm

Nevoljniletac wrote:
Tif something went wrong, we could "land" only on mountains....no terrain for emergency landing". However, hope that "force will be wit me"...definitely I have to work on this because I am literally disabled from traveling and living a life in a full swing.


In the highly unlikely case of an emergency landing, there are places for that even if you don't see them. The pilots know where they are. Even in these mountainous terrain there are flat places, there are even airfields. The ATR only needs a very short runway to land, so you'll be safe.

About the engine noise, just don't worry about it. It's a bit uncomfortable, but that's it. It's a sign that the engine is alive and doing what it's supposed to do.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:03 pm

Nevoljniletac wrote:
Likewise, speaking of Balkan's scenery, it is amazingly beautiful, but every time when I look trought the window I think "I wish I was flying over Germany,France,Hungary....flat countries, if something went wrong, we could "land" only on mountains....no terrain for emergency landing". However, hope that "force will be wit me"...


Don't worry about that. If we can't maintain a safe altitude with 1 engine failed, we don't go. But the Balkans are never high enough for that though, and on a cold winters day the aircraft can maintain a much higher single-engine cruising level. The only place where that is a problem in Europe is over the alps, especially in Switzerland and France. The scenery is awesome though, especially around Kosovo and Montenegro. The mountains are covered in some very characteristic pockmarked craters.
 
Nevoljniletac
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:58 pm

Hey, guys, just to provide your some feedback regarding my trip....or better said trip repport:)) I guess I made too much ado about nothing....thanks very much to all and each of you guys for being more than supportive! Both flights were more than fine...first one was almost all the time light-turbulent, but I recalled your advices, particular help of @ VSMUT who used to fly in Balkans, and likewise I approached to flight attendant before a take off saying that I have a problem. She was super polite( unlike some others that I have met personally and heard off them) swinging by my seat several times to check me up, but that was really unnecessary because I was calm....I took a pill, but still didn't have in my head some ludacris scenarious and worst thoughts....I just...let it go. After first flight and landindg, I was feeling as if I had conquered the Mont Everest, so I knew the second one was going to be easier, althought longer. The second one was impecable, and I just took a napp for a while (10 minutes maybe) but for me that was something inconceivable so far. Of course, while approaching/descending to the airport, felt some sudden slowing down of the plane and kind of dropping but nothing to rock ny (mindfull) boat:)) After all I was very very proud of myself, and believe or not - I wanted more:) of course, I was aware thar was irrational feeling caused by surge of adreanalin, but stil felt like kinf of the world:))
Likewise, I am aware that I am not "cured" and that I would need to have a couple of good, smooth flights more in order to say - I am getting out of this twilight zone. My next flight is supposed to be in March or May(depending on my working program)so in the meantime I will remain faithful follower of this forum:) p.s. dont be suprised if we have to go trought everything all over again in March/May:) but if so, it's not going to be to that extent"))

Thanks a lot guys!!!!
 
senatorflyer
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:17 pm

Nevoljniletac wrote:
Hello,

Sorry for introducing myself in this way, and maybe this is not right place to post this kind of issue but, however, would like to find some comfort here....or not

I have always been fearful flyer, flying only when I have to, and with the special preparations every time before a take off. This time I have two flights, from Montenegro to Belgrade, and after that to Bucharest, operated by Air Serbia. I know that this company is among the best in the region (that is not something extremely hard to be, considering other states), but the thought that those flights will be operated/conducted by two ATRs skyrockets anxiety.

My biggest concerns in that regards are - age of the planes (between 20 and 30 years old, depending on the company's needs and schedule) and cold conditions here in the region, because I have heard about lot of accidents caused by icing). Of course, there might be some other issues like turbulence or smt similar,,but for the time being it's lagging behind first two reassons. I am.supposed to fly on Sunday (first flight at 8:25 from Podgorica to Belgrade, and second one at 13:15 from Belgrade to Bucharest).
Should I be worried? Thanks in advance


Chances are higher to be involved in some sort of accident when leaving your house. So don’t worry.
 
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VapourTrails
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Re: Fear of the upcoming flight

Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:28 am

Nevoljniletac wrote:
Hey, guys, just to provide your some feedback regarding my trip....or better said trip repport:)) I guess I made too much ado about nothing....thanks very much to all and each of you guys for being more than supportive! Both flights were more than fine...first one was almost all the time light-turbulent, but I recalled your advices, particular help of @ VSMUT who used to fly in Balkans, and likewise I approached to flight attendant before a take off saying that I have a problem. She was super polite( unlike some others that I have met personally and heard off them) swinging by my seat several times to check me up, but that was really unnecessary because I was calm....I took a pill, but still didn't have in my head some ludacris scenarious and worst thoughts....I just...let it go. After first flight and landindg, I was feeling as if I had conquered the Mont Everest, so I knew the second one was going to be easier, althought longer. The second one was impecable, and I just took a napp for a while (10 minutes maybe) but for me that was something inconceivable so far. Of course, while approaching/descending to the airport, felt some sudden slowing down of the plane and kind of dropping but nothing to rock ny (mindfull) boat:)) After all I was very very proud of myself, and believe or not - I wanted more:) of course, I was aware thar was irrational feeling caused by surge of adreanalin, but stil felt like kinf of the world:)) Likewise, I am aware that I am not "cured" and that I would need to have a couple of good, smooth flights more in order to say - I am getting out of this twilight zone. My next flight is supposed to be in March or May(depending on my working program)so in the meantime I will remain faithful follower of this forum:) p.s. dont be suprised if we have to go trought everything all over again in March/May:) but if so, it's not going to be to that extent"))

Thanks a lot guys!!!!


Hey, thanks for sharing! I am so glad it worked out well for you. Now you have something positive to work with for next time. And if sharing some of my stuff - my experiences, helps to contribute towards an outcome like this it makes it definitely worthwhile. I hope you continue to stay around here too and share when you feel the need to. It helps others too as this is a public forum. Cheers. :thumbsup:
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