blacksoviet
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Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:19 am

They had large fleets of 741 and 742. Was Northwest ever in talks with Boeing about the 743?
 
AS737MAX
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:51 am

They were the launch customer for the 744, and along with several other airlines, worked with Boeing to craft the ultimate model for the time, longer range, glass screens, etc. Others can probably elaborate further but I just happened to be reading up on it the other day.

-'MAX
 
KICT
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:40 am

Fun fact. Northwest actually did purchase some ex-Swissair 747-300s for parts.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:59 am

747-300 was a stopgap aircraft. NW wisely waited for the -400. A better question might be why didn't NW order the MD-11. On paper, the MD-11 would have been a good fit for NW, but with it's performance shortcomings, it was probably a good decision not to.
Finally headed to DORKFEST! Sept 7, STL-LAX-PHX-STL. :cloudnine:
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:17 am

KICT wrote:
Fun fact. Northwest actually did purchase some ex-Swissair 747-300s for parts.


Indeed, for their Pratt & Whitney's.


OzarkD9S wrote:
747-300 was a stopgap aircraft. NW wisely waited for the -400. A better question might be why didn't NW order the MD-11. On paper, the MD-11 would have been a good fit for NW, but with it's performance shortcomings, it was probably a good decision not to.


The MD-11 was only launched at the end of 1986 while at the same time Airbus was finalising the design of its new widebodies while manufacturing its new family, the A320.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:27 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
A better question might be why didn't NW order the MD-11. On paper, the MD-11 would have been a good fit for NW, but with it's performance shortcomings, it was probably a good decision not to.


Did the MD-11 lose out to the A340 when NW ordered 24 A340s?

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416925
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
FatCat
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:53 am

ah, the short lived, never loved, B743.
lasted only a bunch of years on B. pricelists.
the last civilian plane with the JT9D, am I right?
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:35 pm

FatCat wrote:
the last civilian plane with the JT9D, am I right?


The 743 and 767s were introduced about the same time, both had JT9s. JAL even ordered them on their 767-346 non-ERs.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:49 pm

FatCat wrote:
ah, the short lived, never loved, B743.


Some still found it interesting enough to converted some of their -200s to -200SUD.
 
SteelChair
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:53 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
747-300 was a stopgap aircraft. NW wisely waited for the -400. A better question might be why didn't NW order the MD-11. On paper, the MD-11 would have been a good fit for NW, but with it's performance shortcomings, it was probably a good decision not to.


I've always felt like the MD11 performance shortfall was overstated. I wont go so far as to say it was a myth, because it did exist to a slight degree, but Crandall-led AA made a lot of noise about it in the press, imho angling for better deals from MDC. What couldnt it do that anyone who bought it wanted it to do? It could fly many routes that the DC10-30,40 couldn't, and much more economically than the 744. Imho it would have been a great plane for NWA.

Then again, there was its safety record.....
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:08 pm

SteelChair wrote:
I've always felt like the MD11 performance shortfall was overstated. I wont go so far as to say it was a myth, because it did exist to a slight degree, but Crandall-led AA made a lot of noise about it in the press, imho angling for better deals from MDC.


Crandall was the first to make noise, but the real big blow came from SQ.It was more than a feeling.

SteelChair wrote:
What couldnt it do that anyone who bought it wanted it to do?


I suggest you search in this site's database, perhaps specifically in the Technical/Operations forum, one of the many threads about the MD-11.
 
N766UA
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:20 pm

Dude, seriously, enough of these threads.
 
raylee67
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:55 pm

747-300 is not capable to do trans-Pacific. It's mostly taken up by Asian airlines (although European ones like KLM and Swissair also bought some). And Asian airlines use them for high density intra-Asian routes.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 351 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:03 pm

N766UA wrote:
Dude, seriously, enough of these threads.


blacksoviet has a thing for a the 747-300. It's funny that even though this is the first thread of theirs in a long time regarding the 743 (that I've seen), I still gathered straight away who had posted it without even looking...
B737/738/739/744ER/752/753/763/77L/77W/788/789
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Western727
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:16 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
FatCat wrote:
ah, the short lived, never loved, B743.


Some still found it interesting enough to converted some of their -200s to -200SUD.


Fun fact: I have a cherished video of a flight I took on PH-BUK (the sole surviving KL classic 747 that's on display in Lelystad), technically a 747-206B(M)SUD in 2003. By a sheer stroke of luck, I panned the camera from the left wing at ORD (seated in an "A" seat between doors L1 and L2) to the overhead tube TV showing a female flight attendant speaking Dutch during the preflight safety briefing, then saying "...Boeing 747-300..." with the captions clearly reading the same. After arriving in AMS, I looked it up, only to realize it wasn't actually a -300. I was obviously thrilled to realize that I could cross off the SUD from my 747 bucket list.
Jack @ AUS
 
superjeff
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:40 pm

FatCat wrote:
ah, the short lived, never loved, B743.
lasted only a bunch of years on B. pricelists.
the last civilian plane with the JT9D, am I right?
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?



I thought KLM had 747-200SUD (with the Stretched Upper Deck option). I didn't think they had 743's. Can anybody verify?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:46 pm

superjeff wrote:
FatCat wrote:
ah, the short lived, never loved, B743.
lasted only a bunch of years on B. pricelists.
the last civilian plane with the JT9D, am I right?
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?



I thought KLM had 747-200SUD (with the Stretched Upper Deck option). I didn't think they had 743's. Can anybody verify?

They had both.

MSN's 23056, 23137 and 23506 were all 747-306M.
MSN 21546 for example was a 747-206BM(SUD).
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:46 pm

superjeff wrote:
I didn't think they had 743's. Can anybody verify?


They had three: https://www.planespotters.net/productio ... s=historic
 
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OA412
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:56 pm

superjeff wrote:
FatCat wrote:
ah, the short lived, never loved, B743.
lasted only a bunch of years on B. pricelists.
the last civilian plane with the JT9D, am I right?
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?



I thought KLM had 747-200SUD (with the Stretched Upper Deck option). I didn't think they had 743's. Can anybody verify?

The majority of their classic 747s were the SUD variety, but they did purchase 6 743s as well.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:58 pm

OA412 wrote:
superjeff wrote:
FatCat wrote:
ah, the short lived, never loved, B743.
lasted only a bunch of years on B. pricelists.
the last civilian plane with the JT9D, am I right?
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?



I thought KLM had 747-200SUD (with the Stretched Upper Deck option). I didn't think they had 743's. Can anybody verify?

The majority of their classic 747s were the SUD variety, but they did purchase 6 743s as well.

3 per several websites.
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:03 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
OA412 wrote:
superjeff wrote:


I thought KLM had 747-200SUD (with the Stretched Upper Deck option). I didn't think they had 743's. Can anybody verify?

The majority of their classic 747s were the SUD variety, but they did purchase 6 743s as well.

3 per several websites.

Thanks for the correction. I just went off the info here, but it may be incorrect. https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/KLM.htm
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:08 pm

OA412 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
OA412 wrote:
The majority of their classic 747s were the SUD variety, but they did purchase 6 743s as well.

3 per several websites.

Thanks for the correction. I just went off the info here, but it may be incorrect. https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/KLM.htm

That's because Airfleets.net goes by many parameters; 2 of the 3 KLM 747-306M's were first N-registered until 1991 before being PH-registered and the 3rd one went to Martinair Holland for 6 months then back to KLM. So, each frame has 2 hits in the KLM database.
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:27 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I just went off the info here, but it may be incorrect. https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/KLM.htm

That's because Airfleets.net goes by many parameters; 2 of the 3 KLM 747-306M's were first N-registered until 1991 before being PH-registered and the 3rd one went to Martinair Holland for 6 months then back to KLM. So, each frame has 2 hits in the KLM database.[/quote]

Indeed, and that the same for many other aircraft with other airlines. It's a bit messy and confusing.
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:59 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
747-300 was a stopgap aircraft. NW wisely waited for the -400. A better question might be why didn't NW order the MD-11. On paper, the MD-11 would have been a good fit for NW, but with it's performance shortcomings, it was probably a good decision not to.


I think 743 was available starting in the early 1980s, so there would only have been a brief window when that was available and when the airlines knew that 744 was coming. Since range was important to early 747 operators and 743 carried a small range penalty and the super-long-legged 744 was coming, I'm not surprised many airlines decided to wait it out.

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
747-300 was a stopgap aircraft. NW wisely waited for the -400. A better question might be why didn't NW order the MD-11. On paper, the MD-11 would have been a good fit for NW, but with it's performance shortcomings, it was probably a good decision not to.


The MD-11 was only launched at the end of 1986 while at the same time Airbus was finalising the design of its new widebodies while manufacturing its new family, the A320.


I think in the mid-1980s, on paper the MD-11 would have been superior in range to what would become the A333. The A300s and A310s of that time would have been limited in range compared to the MD-11 concept, but more fuel efficient. NOTE I'm talking about how things would have appeared in the mid-1980s. The 1990s would reveal a different state of affairs.
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:15 pm

smithbs wrote:
I think in the mid-1980s, on paper the MD-11 would have been superior in range to what would become the A333. The A300s and A310s of that time would have been limited in range compared to the MD-11 concept, but more fuel efficient.


At the time, the A333 was only sold as a regional/domestic aircraft along the longrange A340. I believe the first A333 ops outside of that was with EI to the U.S. It's only later that the A333 became what we know today, but this would take us too far away from the origial topic of this thread.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:15 pm

Sorry, this is slightly off topic, but I wonder why Boeing skipped from 747-400 to 800?
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:34 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
Sorry, this is slightly off topic, but I wonder why Boeing skipped from 747-400 to 800?

Boeing did have several 747s that would have used the -500 and up models but they were basically paper aircraft. I don't remember all the details but I think one model was a short stretch. Boeing could have used one of those dash numbers but chose to skip them and use the 8i and 8F instead.
Northwest Airlines as noted earlier in this thread purchased two retired Swissair 747-357M aircraft for parts. Northwest mainly wanted their Pratt & Whitney JT9D-7R4G power plants and the main landing gear Northwest wanted to use on two of their early build 747-251 freighters which came with a lighter duty main body landing gear. They may have taken some other parts that were common with rest of their 747 fleet. KLM did have Boing modify several 747-257 aircraft into SUD models and also then ordered the 747-357. Northwest Airline never had any interest in the 747-300 aircraft for purchase.
Northwest Airlines was early A340 purchaser with at least one aircraft painted partially or fully in Northwest's livery. One was flown by Airbus to MSP and kept in a hanger and eventually flown to Chicago ORD airfield to check out how the aircraft would check out at a gate as Northwest was planning on using the A340 to fly from Chicago to Tokyo and back replacing some go their 747-151 passenger aircraft but never did due financial conditions of the leveraged buyout of Northwest Airlines by Alfred Chechi and his associates which nearly bankrupted the airline.
Dutcjet in a post on Northwest and the A340 has accurate explanation of why Northwest Airlines but did not purchase the A340 but purchased used DC-10-30 aircraft. Northwest wanted to retire their DC-40 aircraft as they were expensive to obtain parts for as they had numerous parts that were unique to that model.
Below find Dutchjets earlier posting.
It has been asked and answered many times.

NW was an early A340 customer.....and some early build A340s were allocated to NW and ended up with Virgin via a leasing deal. Some say that one or more A340s were painted in NW colors, others say it never happened, its not clear what the real answer is.

NW placed an order for the A330 and A340 back in the 1980s.....NW went through some very difficult financial times in the early 1990s and it could not afford to accept delivery of the A340s when they were ready for delivery. NW's order with Airbus for the A320/330/340 was revised, delayed, renegotiated and restructed many many times over the years......NW never did accept delivery of an A340, but the A330s did join the NW fleet (even if they were about ten years later than originally planned) and NW has a huge A319/A320 fleet......some of the A320s were ordered in consideration of the delays and cancellation of the widebody orders. During the late 80s and early 90s, NW grew its longhaul fleet by picking up DC10-30s on the second hand market instead of acquiring much more expensive new airplanes.

And, to answer you next question, CO also was an early A330/A340 customer (7 of each were ordered).......that order was cancelled during one of the CO bankruptcy proceedings and CO also went with second hand DC10-30s to add long haul capacity. Later, when Gordon came to CO, large Boeing orders were placed to renew CO's long and short haul fleets. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Gemuser
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:09 pm

FatCat wrote:
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?

Depends on what you mean by "something", KLM served AMS-SYD for around 60 years from 1933/4 until about 1994. The final service was with a B743. That was a sad day for avgeeks as KLM was the first airline to serve Australia internationally. The route was Batativea - Sydney with connections to/from AMS. One of the aircraft types operated, at least for a short while was the incredibly rare DC=5!!!

Gemuser
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:16 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
KLM did have Boing modify several 747-257 aircraft into SUD models and also then ordered the 747-357. Northwest Airline never had any interest in the 747-300 aircraft for purchase.

The "57" customer code was for Swissair; KLM was 06. Hence the 3 747-306M they got.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:26 pm

Gemuser wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?

Depends on what you mean by "something", KLM served AMS-SYD for around 60 years from 1933/4 until about 1994. The final service was with a B743. That was a sad day for avgeeks as KLM was the first airline to serve Australia internationally. The route was Batativea - Sydney with connections to/from AMS. One of the aircraft types operated, at least for a short while was the incredibly rare DC=5!!!

Gemuser

where is "batativea"?
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:30 pm

raylee67 wrote:
747-300 is not capable to do trans-Pacific. It's mostly taken up by Asian airlines (although European ones like KLM and Swissair also bought some). And Asian airlines use them for high density intra-Asian routes.


Wrong, used by Korean, JAL, Singapore and other overs the Pacific. Singapore used them for SIN-NRT-LAX & HKG to SFO nonstop to SFO and stopped in HNL west to HKG. Korean used them nonstop to LAX. JAL used the 743 to Europe nonstop to Honolulu, LHR and CDG when the Soviets allowed over flights. IT would have been lousy for NW since they couldn't do JFK, DTW or ORD to Tokyo as the 742 and 744 could. Qantas didn't fly them to LAX but did to LHR via Bangkok. The pacific is not everything, the Atlantic was important to the Swissair 743 fleet and Europe to Asia was to the Singapore BigTop 743 fleet. the 743 was the first airplane Singapore Air used nonstop from LHR to SIN it stopped in Dubai toward LHR.

The 743 was an unloved stretch of the upper deck but introduced us to better thing to come when the more capable 744 arrived in 1989. AS many times with Boeing derivatives the thing introduced doesn't make a splash with the original plane but a later version of the plane, remember the 747SP. NO SP then no -400.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:30 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
KLM did have Boing modify several 747-257 aircraft into SUD models and also then ordered the 747-357. Northwest Airline never had any interest in the 747-300 aircraft for purchase.

The "57" customer code was for Swissair; KLM was 06. Hence the 3 747-306M they got.

You are correct. Got my model numbers mixed up. I was going to add the following information to my above post but got timed out.

As to another note, Boeing tried to sell Northwest Airlines the MD-95, which Boeing changed to the 717, to replace the DC-9 aircraft Northwest had. I have a 717 model in Northwest' s bowling shoe livery. Also of note Northwest was the largest operator of the DC-9 aircraft even though they NEVER purchased any new from the manufacture. :old:
Last edited by NWAROOSTER on Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:38 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Wrong, used by Korean, JAL, Singapore and other overs the Pacific. Singapore used them for SIN-NRT-LAX & HKG to SFO nonstop to SFO and stopped in HNL west to HKG. Korean used them nonstop to LAX.


So did MH with their lone 743.

NWAROOSTER wrote:
As to another note, Boeing tried to sell Northwest Airlines the MD-95, which Boeing changed to the 717, to replace the DC-9 aircraft Northwest had.


I remember that. It would have been a big success for them.

jfk777 wrote:
Also of note Northwest was the largest operator of the DC-9 aircraft even though they NEVER purchased and new from the manufacture. :old:


They can thanks the "Mallard" for that, as well as all the additional second hands they added from 1986.
 
33lspotter
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:03 pm

FatCat wrote:
ah, the short lived, never loved, B743.
lasted only a bunch of years on B. pricelists.


IIRC the 743 was launched in ‘80 and entered service in ‘83. 744 was ‘85 and ‘89, respectively, and NW was the launch customer. Orders for the 747 series were declining hence the 744 program and the development of the glass cockpit/winglets/etc. Given NW being the launch customer of the 744 and likely having an inside track on development I’m guessing they were inclined to shell out for bigger and better rather than a stopgap (which I am inclined to believe the 743 was).
 
LH707330
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:30 pm

The Pacific network that NW had was at the range limit of the 742B, so adding the 743, which was effectively a payload/range swap with the same MTOW, was a non-starter. NW, along with LH and others, loudly complained about the 743 to get B to do the 744.

Regarding the MD-11, NW was one of the initial A340 customers, then canceled when they had financial issues in the early 90s. It's a shame, the 340 in the bowling shoe would have looked amazing.
 
Gemuser
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:52 am

[quote="blacksoviet" where is "batativea"?[/quote]

Modem day Jakarta [yes I know the spelling could be wonky, I didn't have time to check it]

Gemuser
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:00 am

jfk777 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
747-300 is not capable to do trans-Pacific. It's mostly taken up by Asian airlines (although European ones like KLM and Swissair also bought some). And Asian airlines use them for high density intra-Asian routes.


Wrong, used by Korean, JAL, Singapore and other overs the Pacific. Qantas didn't fly them to LAX but did to LHR via Bangkok. .


QF DID fly them to LAX via HNL, not non stop but they had the SP for that.
I'm pretty sure they had a stop between BKK & LHR, the B742 couldn't do it non stop. They also operated to LHR via SIN & BAH and SYD & NRT.

Gemuser
 
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vhqpa
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:19 am

At the very end of their lives the QF 743 fleet were also used on MEL-AKL-LAX.
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:48 am

Gemuser wrote:
[quote="blacksoviet" where is "batativea"?


Modem day Jakarta [yes I know the spelling could be wonky, I didn't have time to check it]

Gemuser[/quote]
So you are saying that the KLM 743 flew all the way from Jakarta to AMS? That is amazing. How is that possible if SQ had to make a fuel stop on SFO-HKG? Did KLM use better engines than SQ on their 743s?
 
blacksoviet
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:18 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Wrong, used by Korean, JAL, Singapore and other overs the Pacific. Singapore used them for SIN-NRT-LAX & HKG to SFO nonstop to SFO and stopped in HNL west to HKG. Korean used them nonstop to LAX.


So did MH with their lone 743.
[/quote]

I doubt MH flew the 743 from LAX to KUL. I don't even think a 742 could do that.
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:10 am

Gemuser wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?

Depends on what you mean by "something", KLM served AMS-SYD for around 60 years from 1933/4 until about 1994. The final service was with a B743. That was a sad day for avgeeks as KLM was the first airline to serve Australia internationally. The route was Batativea - Sydney with connections to/from AMS. One of the aircraft types operated, at least for a short while was the incredibly rare DC=5!!!

Gemuser


Pretty sure KL served SYD until atleast 2000 with a 744 at the end.

blacksoviet wrote:
SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Wrong, used by Korean, JAL, Singapore and other overs the Pacific. Singapore used them for SIN-NRT-LAX & HKG to SFO nonstop to SFO and stopped in HNL west to HKG. Korean used them nonstop to LAX.


So did MH with their lone 743.


I doubt MH flew the 743 from LAX to KUL. I don't even think a 742 could do that.[/quote]

MH flew the pacific via NRT or was it HNL with the 743?
 
Flanker7
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:23 am

Gemuser wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?

Depends on what you mean by "something", KLM served AMS-SYD for around 60 years from 1933/4 until about 1994. The final service was with a B743. That was a sad day for avgeeks as KLM was the first airline to serve Australia internationally. The route was Batativea - Sydney with connections to/from AMS. One of the aircraft types operated, at least for a short while was the incredibly rare DC=5!!!

Gemuser

Slight correction but the 747-400 was the last to operate to SYD
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:27 am

blacksoviet wrote:
So you are saying that the KLM 743 flew all the way from Jakarta to AMS? That is amazing. How is that possible if SQ had to make a fuel stop on SFO-HKG? Did KLM use better engines than SQ on their 743s?


It is Batavia, Dutch East Indies. We now know it as Jakarta, Indonesia as Gemuser pointed out.

Gemuser is referring to the fact that KLM used to operate from Amsterdam to Australia via Batavia back when the route first began. This would have been back in the 1930s with the Douglas DC-2 and Douglas DC-3. There were many more stops than just Batavia of course!
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:25 am

OA412 wrote:
The majority of their classic 747s were the SUD variety (...)


That's right.
Interestingly, KLM had only their GE powered 742's (PH-BUH > PH-BUT) converted to 747-206 SUD. The earlier P&W engined -206's (PH-BUA > PH-BUG) kept their short hump.

The SUD's were often referred to as -300, and technically they were. I believe the only difference between a 200SUD and a -300 is the staircase (straight vs. spiralled), but I'm not 100% sure.
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:34 am

TurboJet707 wrote:
OA412 wrote:
The majority of their classic 747s were the SUD variety (...)


That's right.
Interestingly, KLM had only their GE powered 742's (PH-BUH > PH-BUT) converted to 747-206 SUD. The earlier P&W engined -206's (PH-BUA > PH-BUG) kept their short hump.

The SUD's were often referred to as -300, and technically they were. I believe the only difference between a 200SUD and a -300 is the staircase (straight vs. spiralled), but I'm not 100% sure.

The 747-300 had different wheels than the 747-200SUD. Did the 747-300 have more range than the 747-200SUD?
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:11 am

Gemuser wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?

Depends on what you mean by "something", KLM served AMS-SYD for around 60 years from 1933/4 until about 1994. The final service was with a B743. That was a sad day for avgeeks as KLM was the first airline to serve Australia internationally. The route was Batativea - Sydney with connections to/from AMS. One of the aircraft types operated, at least for a short while was the incredibly rare DC=5!!!

Gemuser

So it was one of the very last flights, it was 93 or 94, as I wasn't in 5th grade but it was the summer between 1st and 2nd year at middle school.
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superjeff
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:30 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?

Depends on what you mean by "something", KLM served AMS-SYD for around 60 years from 1933/4 until about 1994. The final service was with a B743. That was a sad day for avgeeks as KLM was the first airline to serve Australia internationally. The route was Batativea - Sydney with connections to/from AMS. One of the aircraft types operated, at least for a short while was the incredibly rare DC=5!!!

Gemuser

where is "batativea"?



I think Jakarta
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:04 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
[quote="blacksoviet" where is "batativea"?


Modem day Jakarta [yes I know the spelling could be wonky, I didn't have time to check it]

Gemuser

So you are saying that the KLM 743 flew all the way from Jakarta to AMS? That is amazing. How is that possible if SQ had to make a fuel stop on SFO-HKG? Did KLM use better engines than SQ on their 743s?[/quote]
Until the B744 NOTHING flew non stop AMS to Jakarta there were intermediate stops. The B743/2 made one or two. Which was standard operating procedure at the time due to lack of range.. To give a historical perspective when QF/Imperial Airways started service Sydney to London [Southampton Water] with Shorts S23 "Empire " flying boats in 1934 there were 22 stops and it took about 10 days [compared to 30 - 40 days by ship!], today we are down to one stop and non stop in the early 2020s IF Project Sunrise is successful.

Gemuser
 
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:06 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
FatCat wrote:
I remember a friend of mine in 5th grade sent me a postcard of a KLM B743 from Australia, the plane he travelled onto for his Aussie trip... was there something between AMS and SYD with KLM in the early 90s?

Depends on what you mean by "something", KLM served AMS-SYD for around 60 years from 1933/4 until about 1994. The final service was with a B743. That was a sad day for avgeeks as KLM was the first airline to serve Australia internationally. The route was Batativea - Sydney with connections to/from AMS. One of the aircraft types operated, at least for a short while was the incredibly rare DC=5!!!

Gemuser

Slight correction but the 747-400 was the last to operate to SYD

According to my memory the very last flight was a B743! Of course there is nothing to say my memory is correct!

Gemuser
 
Flanker7
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Re: Why didn't NW order the 747-300?

Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:55 pm

Gemuser wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
Gemuser wrote:
Depends on what you mean by "something", KLM served AMS-SYD for around 60 years from 1933/4 until about 1994. The final service was with a B743. That was a sad day for avgeeks as KLM was the first airline to serve Australia internationally. The route was Batativea - Sydney with connections to/from AMS. One of the aircraft types operated, at least for a short while was the incredibly rare DC=5!!!

Gemuser

Slight correction but the 747-400 was the last to operate to SYD

According to my memory the very last flight was a B743! Of course there is nothing to say my memory is correct!

Gemuser

Sorry but no it was the 747-400. My dear wife , flight crew, had flown the AMS-SIN-SYD on many occasions and even the ALITALIA operation flow with the 747-400. I even took that flight on a lot of my trips to SIN.
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