fedex1
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Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:36 am

1st time starting a thread. I read a lot, have a true interest in aviation!

So my question what cities are next in the US for Europe service ?!?

CMH? STL? MCI??

I appreciate the responses!
 
KICT
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:49 am

Joined 9 years ago but this is your first post? Impressive.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
IPFreely
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:50 am

fedex1 wrote:
So my question what cities are next in the US for Europe service ?!?


Whichever city buys European service with subsidies or guarantees will be next.
 
B1168
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:51 am

A mildly insane idea. CMH, if justified, can receive service from LHR barely using 737 Max 8s or A321neos. Based on gcmapper, CMH-LHR is about 30 miles shorter than MNL-SYD, currently operated by PR using A321neos. That is a significant downgrade (compared to the next plane, 787-8), making a starting step easier to establish.
I have no idea on the pax for the route, but such a long transatlantic in NBs are intriguing to think about.
 
fedex1
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:57 am

Why not a 767 from CMH, like IND has?
 
fedex1
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:11 am

Oh boy! Well IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, BNA, the list could go on... in my eyes are a second tier city! They aren’t a BOS, LAX, SFO, DTW, JFK, ATL, EWR, IAD... list goes on LoL. Sorry to possibly offend someone.
 
crj900lr
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:13 am

KICT wrote:
Joined 9 years ago but this is your first post? Impressive.



No, it's his first time starting a thread. If the numbers add up basically any city can have that kind of service, some more easily then others, due to facilities, but its all about the numbers to get it to work.
 
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chrisnh
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:14 am

:lol: @CMH...pretending to be as significant as those natural transatlantic hubs Providence, Stewart, and Hartford. :stirthepot:

There are more people in Columbus than in Cleveland, Cincinnati, Hartford, and Providence COMBINED.
 
flyguy84
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:25 am

STL had service to KEF... I don’t see any other TATL working out.
SFO
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:26 am

B1168 wrote:
A mildly insane idea. CMH, if justified, can receive service from LHR barely using 737 Max 8s or A321neos. Based on gcmapper, CMH-LHR is about 30 miles shorter than MNL-SYD, currently operated by PR using A321neos. That is a significant downgrade (compared to the next plane, 787-8), making a starting step easier to establish.
I have no idea on the pax for the route, but such a long transatlantic in NBs are intriguing to think about.


Annual Wind components for MNL-SYD vs. LHR-CMH are entirely different.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:28 am

flyguy84 wrote:
STL had service to KEF... I don’t see any other TATL working out.


And MCI has seasonal FI to KEF.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:52 am

With the 321LR, could an airfield like CLE see TATL service to LGW on Norwegian? Also, SWF could be a way to shoehorn in a 4th daily flight to LGW on the 321LR. A better question is: what second tier cities in Europe could be connected to the East Coast of the USA?
 
B1168
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:57 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
B1168 wrote:
A mildly insane idea. CMH, if justified, can receive service from LHR barely using 737 Max 8s or A321neos. Based on gcmapper, CMH-LHR is about 30 miles shorter than MNL-SYD, currently operated by PR using A321neos. That is a significant downgrade (compared to the next plane, 787-8), making a starting step easier to establish.
I have no idea on the pax for the route, but such a long transatlantic in NBs are intriguing to think about.


Annual Wind components for MNL-SYD vs. LHR-CMH are entirely different.


Sure, I am unfamiliar with that. I think a summer seasonal (to reduce impact of headwind, and probably legitimate for a startup flight) is OK to initiate the market, but the airline have to agree on that.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:59 am

It's already happened. AUS has service to LHR.
 
trexel94
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:01 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
STL had service to KEF... I don’t see any other TATL working out.


And MCI has seasonal FI to KEF.


Its ironic how MCI has a TATL and not STL.
 
B1168
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:02 am

Ziyulu wrote:
It's already happened. AUS has service to LHR.


Maybe the next step should be San Antonio. Just go with 2wk 788s.
 
Buffalomatt1027
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:17 am

IPFreely wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
So my question what cities are next in the US for Europe service ?!?


Whichever city buys European service with subsidies or guarantees will be next.


100% agree with your point ..... what ever medium size airport dishes out the incentives to international airlines will get the route / service.


A 2nd Tier airport can definitely be my home airport..... Buffalo / BNIA.

Why:

Within range from some European cities with the Max / A321

Airlines MIGHT (key word) ...... use BNIA as a secondary airport for Toronto. Some airlines have restrictions flying to Toronto. Before you think its a crazy idea, Emirates flies to Seattle and buses passengers over to Vancouver. It takes 4 hours and going over the boarder. From Buffalo to Toronto is takes an 1 1/2 hours and a boarder.

Is it likely? No .... but definitely possible.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:25 am

fedex1 wrote:
Oh boy! Well IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, BNA, the list could go on... in my eyes are a second tier city! They aren’t a BOS, LAX, SFO, DTW, JFK, ATL, EWR, IAD... list goes on LoL. Sorry to possibly offend someone.

Sigh... some people...

Don't worry about what others think. Some people are very opinionated on here, and that will never change. This is a perfectly legitimate thread to start, and don't let other people tell you otherwise... :D

I agree with your definition of "second tier city". I see the term as a city without a major airline hub (from AA, DL or UA).

With that being said, I'm from Portland, and I think PDX is a second-tier airport because it has limited long-haul international flights, but Alaska has a small hub there. But some people see it differently, I guess...
 
fedex1
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:30 am

Well said PDX!
 
JamesRenard
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:37 am

PIT and CHS are BA's newest additions in the USA, both starting service to LHR later this year. I'd say both are second tier cities.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:39 am

trexel94 wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
STL had service to KEF... I don’t see any other TATL working out.


And MCI has seasonal FI to KEF.


Its ironic how MCI has a TATL and not STL.

I don't see MCI-KEF lasting much longer. They only started that to counter WOW's STL-KEF route.
 
Runway28L
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:55 am

IPFreely wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
So my question what cities are next in the US for Europe service ?!?


Whichever city buys European service with subsidies or guarantees will be next.

:checkmark:

Two things need to be present.

1. Revenue guarantee from the airport and/or city that is lucrative enough to get an airline to start service.
2. A market that is large enough or can be stimulated to a degree where nonstop service can be supported.
 
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pitbosflyer
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:56 am

fedex1 wrote:
Oh boy! Well IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, BNA, the list could go on... in my eyes are a second tier city! They aren’t a BOS, LAX, SFO, DTW, JFK, ATL, EWR, IAD... list goes on LoL. Sorry to possibly offend someone.


PIT already has BA to LHR and DE to FRA
 
rbavfan
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:01 am

B1168 wrote:
A mildly insane idea. CMH, if justified, can receive service from LHR barely using 737 Max 8s or A321neos. Based on gcmapper, CMH-LHR is about 30 miles shorter than MNL-SYD, currently operated by PR using A321neos. That is a significant downgrade (compared to the next plane, 787-8), making a starting step easier to establish.
I have no idea on the pax for the route, but such a long transatlantic in NBs are intriguing to think about.


PR MNL-SYD route is north south, they don't have constant headwinds. CMH-LHR would have headwinds on eastbound flights winters would be tough without the 97t model.
 
trexel94
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:03 am

FA9295 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

And MCI has seasonal FI to KEF.


Its ironic how MCI has a TATL and not STL.

I don't see MCI-KEF lasting much longer. They only started that to counter WOW's STL-KEF route.

Huh? You're out of the loop. FI posted an 84% average capacity for the first season which is pretty good for a new airline with virtually no local brand recognition. Better than what FI officials expected. They're also boosting frequency from 3x per week to 4x. Why would they add flights if they're only in MCI to spite Wow Air when Wow air never served MCI to begin with?
 
N649DL
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:18 am

fedex1 wrote:
Why not a 767 from CMH, like IND has?


IND-CDG with a DL 763 seems like overkill to me. PIT-CDG was state subsidized and now that's gone, and it looks like CVG-CDG is the only mainstay for a 2nd Tier Heartland city because it's a DL focus city. CMH I don't see happening either.

AA has more street cred in some of these 2nd Tier cities like STL and PIT. If anything, they should look into (re-launching) TATL service out of those airports to LHR.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:21 am

fedex1 wrote:
Why not a 767 from CMH, like IND has?

Not to LHR... who's going to fly that with a 767?

IND's service to to CDG.



chrisnh wrote:
There are more people in Columbus than in Cleveland, Cincinnati, Hartford, and Providence COMBINED.

Which doesn't mean tit for squat in terms of air service, because airlines don't restrict population analysis to city-proper.

Columbus' metro and CSA aren't anywhere remotely near the combined total of those other metros.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
fedex1
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:22 am

Just asking a question. . . Why do you see the IND-CDG flight as over kill with a 767?
 
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FA9295
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:30 am

trexel94 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:

Its ironic how MCI has a TATL and not STL.

I don't see MCI-KEF lasting much longer. They only started that to counter WOW's STL-KEF route.

Huh? You're out of the loop. FI posted an 84% average capacity for the first season which is pretty good for a new airline with virtually no local brand recognition. Better than what FI officials expected. They're also boosting frequency from 3x per week to 4x. Why would they add flights if they're only in MCI to spite Wow Air when Wow air never served MCI to begin with?

IIRC, FI added MCI around the same time that WW added STL. Maybe the other way around? The same thing happened with CLE/CVG.

I didn't know that the capacity% was that high. It just seems like MCI is a very thin market for TATL flights, and that the plane would be suited better elsewhere within their route network, IMO.
 
trexel94
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:15 am

FA9295 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
I don't see MCI-KEF lasting much longer. They only started that to counter WOW's STL-KEF route.

Huh? You're out of the loop. FI posted an 84% average capacity for the first season which is pretty good for a new airline with virtually no local brand recognition. Better than what FI officials expected. They're also boosting frequency from 3x per week to 4x. Why would they add flights if they're only in MCI to spite Wow Air when Wow air never served MCI to begin with?

IIRC, FI added MCI around the same time that WW added STL. Maybe the other way around? The same thing happened with CLE/CVG.

I didn't know that the capacity% was that high. It just seems like MCI is a very thin market for TATL flights, and that the plane would be suited better elsewhere within their route network, IMO.

I understand your initial reasoning but the PDEW between MCI and Europe is around 300 which goes up to around 500 during summer. More people fly to LHR from KC than BNA. We just need someone to take a chance.
 
klm617
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:36 am

FA9295 wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Oh boy! Well IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, BNA, the list could go on... in my eyes are a second tier city! They aren’t a BOS, LAX, SFO, DTW, JFK, ATL, EWR, IAD... list goes on LoL. Sorry to possibly offend someone.

Sigh... some people...

Don't worry about what others think. Some people are very opinionated on here, and that will never change. This is a perfectly legitimate thread to start, and don't let other people tell you otherwise... :D

I agree with your definition of "second tier city". I see the term as a city without a major airline hub (from AA, DL or UA).

With that being said, I'm from Portland, and I think PDX is a second-tier airport because it has limited long-haul international flights, but Alaska has a small hub there. But some people see it differently, I guess...


I agree 100% with you what others think has never stopped me from posting. Some people just don't want to hear the truth about the things they have be programmed to think. Post on in most places in the world free speech is a right and there is no shame in exercising that right no matter what others think.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:39 am

FA9295 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
I don't see MCI-KEF lasting much longer. They only started that to counter WOW's STL-KEF route.

Huh? You're out of the loop. FI posted an 84% average capacity for the first season which is pretty good for a new airline with virtually no local brand recognition. Better than what FI officials expected. They're also boosting frequency from 3x per week to 4x. Why would they add flights if they're only in MCI to spite Wow Air when Wow air never served MCI to begin with?

IIRC, FI added MCI around the same time that WW added STL. Maybe the other way around? The same thing happened with CLE/CVG.

I didn't know that the capacity% was that high. It just seems like MCI is a very thin market for TATL flights, and that the plane would be suited better elsewhere within their route network, IMO.



I think there is justification for both STL and CMH perhaps their airports are not properly marketing their markets. What about GRR that market is really booming and Northern Michigan is a tourist mecca in the summer. Just look at the growth at both GRR and TVC
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
ibthebigd
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:57 am

IND-CDG seams to be doing fine with the 767. The Cargo is the real icing on the cake for the flight

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
smallmj
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:05 pm

It amazes me how much TATL service my little local airport (YHZ) gets. We get year round to LHR (daily in the summer) and seasonal service to KEF, FRA, DUB, GLA, CDG, and LGW. There are rumours that more may be on the way. This is for a city of around 400,000 people. But I guess YHZ has a number of advantages over the MUCH larger secondary US markets that have been mentioned here.

It is very close to Europe.
It is a beautiful area in the summer, so some tourists come this way.
It is far from any major hub and using a hub requires significant backtracking.
There is a good market for cargo here.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:08 pm

klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Oh boy! Well IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, BNA, the list could go on... in my eyes are a second tier city! They aren’t a BOS, LAX, SFO, DTW, JFK, ATL, EWR, IAD... list goes on LoL. Sorry to possibly offend someone.

Sigh... some people...

Don't worry about what others think. Some people are very opinionated on here, and that will never change. This is a perfectly legitimate thread to start, and don't let other people tell you otherwise... :D

I agree with your definition of "second tier city". I see the term as a city without a major airline hub (from AA, DL or UA).

With that being said, I'm from Portland, and I think PDX is a second-tier airport because it has limited long-haul international flights, but Alaska has a small hub there. But some people see it differently, I guess...


I agree 100% with you what others think has never stopped me from posting. Some people just don't want to hear the truth about the things they have be programmed to think. Post on in most places in the world free speech is a right and there is no shame in exercising that right no matter what others think.


Most people want their home or favorite airports to have more service, particularly international. As the unofficial spokesperson/critic/whiner over what goes on at DTW, you should know this.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:17 pm

klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
Huh? You're out of the loop. FI posted an 84% average capacity for the first season which is pretty good for a new airline with virtually no local brand recognition. Better than what FI officials expected. They're also boosting frequency from 3x per week to 4x. Why would they add flights if they're only in MCI to spite Wow Air when Wow air never served MCI to begin with?

IIRC, FI added MCI around the same time that WW added STL. Maybe the other way around? The same thing happened with CLE/CVG.

I didn't know that the capacity% was that high. It just seems like MCI is a very thin market for TATL flights, and that the plane would be suited better elsewhere within their route network, IMO.



I think there is justification for both STL and CMH perhaps their airports are not properly marketing their markets. What about GRR that market is really booming and Northern Michigan is a tourist mecca in the summer. Just look at the growth at both GRR and TVC


Did you just call GRR a tourist mecca?

trexel94 wrote:
More people fly to LHR from KC than BNA. We just need someone to take a chance.


Maybe a few years ago, but certainly not anymore

pitbosflyer wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Oh boy! Well IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, BNA, the list could go on... in my eyes are a second tier city! They aren’t a BOS, LAX, SFO, DTW, JFK, ATL, EWR, IAD... list goes on LoL. Sorry to possibly offend someone.


PIT already has BA to LHR and DE to FRA


They were referring to PIT being a second tier city which it is, throw on MSY, MCI, MKE, RDU, SAT, and BDL on to your list of IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, and BNA and I think you have the secondary cities covered.

I would put AUS, SAN, SJC, PDX, e.t.c in their own category in between 1st tier and 2nd tier

B1168 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
It's already happened. AUS has service to LHR.


Maybe the next step should be San Antonio. Just go with 2wk 788s.


SAT is working hard on Euro service, who knows.....

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
So my question what cities are next in the US for Europe service ?!?


Whichever city buys European service with subsidies or guarantees will be next.


100% agree with your point ..... what ever medium size airport dishes out the incentives to international airlines will get the route / service.


A 2nd Tier airport can definitely be my home airport..... Buffalo / BNIA.

Why:

Within range from some European cities with the Max / A321

Airlines MIGHT (key word) ...... use BNIA as a secondary airport for Toronto. Some airlines have restrictions flying to Toronto. Before you think its a crazy idea, Emirates flies to Seattle and buses passengers over to Vancouver. It takes 4 hours and going over the boarder. From Buffalo to Toronto is takes an 1 1/2 hours and a boarder.

Is it likely? No .... but definitely possible.


Seattle has a sizable market of its own though

fedex1 wrote:
Why not a 767 from CMH, like IND has?

Probably 757, but it is being discussed
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
STLflyer
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:28 pm

trexel94 wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
STL had service to KEF... I don’t see any other TATL working out.


And MCI has seasonal FI to KEF.


Its ironic how MCI has a TATL and not STL.

We drew the short straw and got the crappy airline that was circling the drain.

At least we have the better baseball team ;)
 
Buffalomatt1027
Posts: 391
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:52 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
klm617 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
IIRC, FI added MCI around the same time that WW added STL. Maybe the other way around? The same thing happened with CLE/CVG.

I didn't know that the capacity% was that high. It just seems like MCI is a very thin market for TATL flights, and that the plane would be suited better elsewhere within their route network, IMO.



I think there is justification for both STL and CMH perhaps their airports are not properly marketing their markets. What about GRR that market is really booming and Northern Michigan is a tourist mecca in the summer. Just look at the growth at both GRR and TVC


Did you just call GRR a tourist mecca?

trexel94 wrote:
More people fly to LHR from KC than BNA. We just need someone to take a chance.


Maybe a few years ago, but certainly not anymore

pitbosflyer wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Oh boy! Well IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, BNA, the list could go on... in my eyes are a second tier city! They aren’t a BOS, LAX, SFO, DTW, JFK, ATL, EWR, IAD... list goes on LoL. Sorry to possibly offend someone.


PIT already has BA to LHR and DE to FRA


They were referring to PIT being a second tier city which it is, throw on MSY, MCI, MKE, RDU, SAT, and BDL on to your list of IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, and BNA and I think you have the secondary cities covered.

I would put AUS, SAN, SJC, PDX, e.t.c in their own category in between 1st tier and 2nd tier

B1168 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
It's already happened. AUS has service to LHR.


Maybe the next step should be San Antonio. Just go with 2wk 788s.


SAT is working hard on Euro service, who knows.....

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
IPFreely wrote:

Whichever city buys European service with subsidies or guarantees will be next.


100% agree with your point ..... what ever medium size airport dishes out the incentives to international airlines will get the route / service.


A 2nd Tier airport can definitely be my home airport..... Buffalo / BNIA.

Why:

Within range from some European cities with the Max / A321

Airlines MIGHT (key word) ...... use BNIA as a secondary airport for Toronto. Some airlines have restrictions flying to Toronto. Before you think its a crazy idea, Emirates flies to Seattle and buses passengers over to Vancouver. It takes 4 hours and going over the boarder. From Buffalo to Toronto is takes an 1 1/2 hours and a boarder.

Is it likely? No .... but definitely possible.


Seattle has a sizable market of its own though

fedex1 wrote:
Why not a 767 from CMH, like IND has?

Probably 757, but it is being discussed


Definitely true about Seattle being a sizable market vs Buffalo. As of right now, about 40% of passenger traffic is Canadians. Also, Toronto has flight restrictions for some airlines and the number of flights that can fly in and also Canada has added another tax which is increasing ticket prices by 28%. I know Emirates would like to increase their flight per day to Toronto but can't.

Buffalo could be a cheaper alternative and they already have the busing to Toronto from the Buffalo airport in place.

Its definitely possible and doable. But how likely? I am not sure.
 
pgh234
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:57 pm

N649DL wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Why not a 767 from CMH, like IND has?


IND-CDG with a DL 763 seems like overkill to me. PIT-CDG was state subsidized and now that's gone, and it looks like CVG-CDG is the only mainstay for a 2nd Tier Heartland city because it's a DL focus city. CMH I don't see happening either.

AA has more street cred in some of these 2nd Tier cities like STL and PIT. If anything, they should look into (re-launching) TATL service out of those airports to LHR.


PIT-CDG was not subsidized by anyone for the last 8 years of its existence. It was seasonal flying that was evidently profitable for them with no subsidy. PIT wanted year-round service though...so brought in BA and DL got mad and pulled out.
 
Buffalomatt1027
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:02 am

Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:02 pm

pgh234 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Why not a 767 from CMH, like IND has?


IND-CDG with a DL 763 seems like overkill to me. PIT-CDG was state subsidized and now that's gone, and it looks like CVG-CDG is the only mainstay for a 2nd Tier Heartland city because it's a DL focus city. CMH I don't see happening either.

AA has more street cred in some of these 2nd Tier cities like STL and PIT. If anything, they should look into (re-launching) TATL service out of those airports to LHR.


PIT-CDG was not subsidized by anyone for the last 8 years of its existence. It was seasonal flying that was evidently profitable for them with no subsidy. PIT wanted year-round service though...so brought in BA and DL got mad and pulled out.



DL got mad because Pitt gives out incentives like cotton candy and they didnt get any. Any airlines receiving incentives has an unfair advantage. Besides the cash incentives, I would assume landing fee is also waived for BA vs DL paying full price.
 
WeatherPilot
Posts: 513
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:19 pm

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
klm617 wrote:


I think there is justification for both STL and CMH perhaps their airports are not properly marketing their markets. What about GRR that market is really booming and Northern Michigan is a tourist mecca in the summer. Just look at the growth at both GRR and TVC


Did you just call GRR a tourist mecca?

trexel94 wrote:
More people fly to LHR from KC than BNA. We just need someone to take a chance.


Maybe a few years ago, but certainly not anymore

pitbosflyer wrote:

PIT already has BA to LHR and DE to FRA


They were referring to PIT being a second tier city which it is, throw on MSY, MCI, MKE, RDU, SAT, and BDL on to your list of IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, and BNA and I think you have the secondary cities covered.

I would put AUS, SAN, SJC, PDX, e.t.c in their own category in between 1st tier and 2nd tier

B1168 wrote:

Maybe the next step should be San Antonio. Just go with 2wk 788s.


SAT is working hard on Euro service, who knows.....

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

100% agree with your point ..... what ever medium size airport dishes out the incentives to international airlines will get the route / service.


A 2nd Tier airport can definitely be my home airport..... Buffalo / BNIA.

Why:

Within range from some European cities with the Max / A321

Airlines MIGHT (key word) ...... use BNIA as a secondary airport for Toronto. Some airlines have restrictions flying to Toronto. Before you think its a crazy idea, Emirates flies to Seattle and buses passengers over to Vancouver. It takes 4 hours and going over the boarder. From Buffalo to Toronto is takes an 1 1/2 hours and a boarder.

Is it likely? No .... but definitely possible.


Seattle has a sizable market of its own though

fedex1 wrote:
Why not a 767 from CMH, like IND has?

Probably 757, but it is being discussed


Definitely true about Seattle being a sizable market vs Buffalo. As of right now, about 40% of passenger traffic is Canadians. Also, Toronto has flight restrictions for some airlines and the number of flights that can fly in and also Canada has added another tax which is increasing ticket prices by 28%. I know Emirates would like to increase their flight per day to Toronto but can't.

Buffalo could be a cheaper alternative and they already have the busing to Toronto from the Buffalo airport in place.

Its definitely possible and doable. But how likely? I am not sure.


Does BUF have the facilities to handle a large international flight and the customs capability to process 100s of passengers?
 
UpgradeMe
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu May 17, 2018 7:00 pm

Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:55 pm

chrisnh wrote:
:lol: @CMH...pretending to be as significant as those natural transatlantic hubs Providence, Stewart, and Hartford. :stirthepot:

There are more people in Columbus than in Cleveland, Cincinnati, Hartford, and Providence COMBINED.


Columbus - 879,170

Cleveland - 385,525
Cincy - 301,301
Hartford - 123,400
Providence - 180,393

990,619 > 879,170
 
kavok
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:54 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Did you just call GRR a tourist mecca?



Maybe a few years ago, but certainly not anymore



They were referring to PIT being a second tier city which it is, throw on MSY, MCI, MKE, RDU, SAT, and BDL on to your list of IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, and BNA and I think you have the secondary cities covered.

I would put AUS, SAN, SJC, PDX, e.t.c in their own category in between 1st tier and 2nd tier



SAT is working hard on Euro service, who knows.....



Seattle has a sizable market of its own though


Probably 757, but it is being discussed


Definitely true about Seattle being a sizable market vs Buffalo. As of right now, about 40% of passenger traffic is Canadians. Also, Toronto has flight restrictions for some airlines and the number of flights that can fly in and also Canada has added another tax which is increasing ticket prices by 28%. I know Emirates would like to increase their flight per day to Toronto but can't.

Buffalo could be a cheaper alternative and they already have the busing to Toronto from the Buffalo airport in place.

Its definitely possible and doable. But how likely? I am not sure.


Does BUF have the facilities to handle a large international flight and the customs capability to process 100s of passengers?



The problem with Buffalo is the proximity to YYZ. TATL coach seats on flights from YYZ are very cheap. It would be one thing if ticket costs were high, in which case BUF could be a good secondary option for penny pinchers. But right now there is tons of TATL competition at YYZ, resulting in relatively low TATL prices. No route to BUF would likely be able to undercut that and remain profitable.

If things change at YYZ at some point in the future, then maybe BUF could work. But not in today’s competitive market.
 
N649DL
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:25 pm

pgh234 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
fedex1 wrote:
Why not a 767 from CMH, like IND has?


IND-CDG with a DL 763 seems like overkill to me. PIT-CDG was state subsidized and now that's gone, and it looks like CVG-CDG is the only mainstay for a 2nd Tier Heartland city because it's a DL focus city. CMH I don't see happening either.

AA has more street cred in some of these 2nd Tier cities like STL and PIT. If anything, they should look into (re-launching) TATL service out of those airports to LHR.


PIT-CDG was not subsidized by anyone for the last 8 years of its existence. It was seasonal flying that was evidently profitable for them with no subsidy. PIT wanted year-round service though...so brought in BA and DL got mad and pulled out.


Initially it was subsidized was it not?

I wouldn't be surprised if DL got a little greedy and/or smug on their CDG ops and who gets what. PIT had a seasonal base for the CDG flight and then it disappeared. I'm a little skeptic as to why EWR-AMS/CDG flights went away as well as they were pretty full, IIRC. Maybe the crooked Port Authority told them to "Get Out" in a closed door meeting or something.
 
Buffalomatt1027
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:02 am

Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:49 pm

WeatherPilot wrote:
Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Did you just call GRR a tourist mecca?



Maybe a few years ago, but certainly not anymore



They were referring to PIT being a second tier city which it is, throw on MSY, MCI, MKE, RDU, SAT, and BDL on to your list of IND, STL, CMH, CVG, CLE, PIT, and BNA and I think you have the secondary cities covered.

I would put AUS, SAN, SJC, PDX, e.t.c in their own category in between 1st tier and 2nd tier



SAT is working hard on Euro service, who knows.....



Seattle has a sizable market of its own though


Probably 757, but it is being discussed


Definitely true about Seattle being a sizable market vs Buffalo. As of right now, about 40% of passenger traffic is Canadians. Also, Toronto has flight restrictions for some airlines and the number of flights that can fly in and also Canada has added another tax which is increasing ticket prices by 28%. I know Emirates would like to increase their flight per day to Toronto but can't.

Buffalo could be a cheaper alternative and they already have the busing to Toronto from the Buffalo airport in place.

Its definitely possible and doable. But how likely? I am not sure.


Does BUF have the facilities to handle a large international flight and the customs capability to process 100s of passengers?


Yes, they do have the ability to handle large international flights.
 
Buffalomatt1027
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:02 am

Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:54 pm

kavok wrote:
WeatherPilot wrote:
Buffalomatt1027 wrote:

Definitely true about Seattle being a sizable market vs Buffalo. As of right now, about 40% of passenger traffic is Canadians. Also, Toronto has flight restrictions for some airlines and the number of flights that can fly in and also Canada has added another tax which is increasing ticket prices by 28%. I know Emirates would like to increase their flight per day to Toronto but can't.

Buffalo could be a cheaper alternative and they already have the busing to Toronto from the Buffalo airport in place.

Its definitely possible and doable. But how likely? I am not sure.


Does BUF have the facilities to handle a large international flight and the customs capability to process 100s of passengers?



The problem with Buffalo is the proximity to YYZ. TATL coach seats on flights from YYZ are very cheap. It would be one thing if ticket costs were high, in which case BUF could be a good secondary option for penny pinchers. But right now there is tons of TATL competition at YYZ, resulting in relatively low TATL prices. No route to BUF would likely be able to undercut that and remain profitable.

If things change at YYZ at some point in the future, then maybe BUF could work. But not in today’s competitive market.


Ahh I didnt know that. Then that makes sense.
 
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SRQKEF
Posts: 1875
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Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:47 pm

FA9295 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
I don't see MCI-KEF lasting much longer. They only started that to counter WOW's STL-KEF route.

Huh? You're out of the loop. FI posted an 84% average capacity for the first season which is pretty good for a new airline with virtually no local brand recognition. Better than what FI officials expected. They're also boosting frequency from 3x per week to 4x. Why would they add flights if they're only in MCI to spite Wow Air when Wow air never served MCI to begin with?

IIRC, FI added MCI around the same time that WW added STL. Maybe the other way around? The same thing happened with CLE/CVG.

I didn't know that the capacity% was that high. It just seems like MCI is a very thin market for TATL flights, and that the plane would be suited better elsewhere within their route network, IMO.


While the market may be thinner than larger cities elsewhere, there's a very good chance they get great yields on connections to Europe being the only TATL show in town.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
Runway28L
Posts: 1832
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:35 pm

Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:36 am

Buffalomatt1027 wrote:
pgh234 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

IND-CDG with a DL 763 seems like overkill to me. PIT-CDG was state subsidized and now that's gone, and it looks like CVG-CDG is the only mainstay for a 2nd Tier Heartland city because it's a DL focus city. CMH I don't see happening either.

AA has more street cred in some of these 2nd Tier cities like STL and PIT. If anything, they should look into (re-launching) TATL service out of those airports to LHR.


PIT-CDG was not subsidized by anyone for the last 8 years of its existence. It was seasonal flying that was evidently profitable for them with no subsidy. PIT wanted year-round service though...so brought in BA and DL got mad and pulled out.



DL got mad because Pitt gives out incentives like cotton candy and they didnt get any. Any airlines receiving incentives has an unfair advantage. Besides the cash incentives, I would assume landing fee is also waived for BA vs DL paying full price.

Perhaps that could be an underlying factor, but it was not primarily why service ended.

The flight was cut because 1. DL was already getting low yields from farematching Condor and BA entering would've made things unsustainable and 2. PIT-CDG's fares were so low that it was starting to cannibalize traffic from DTW/JFK/ATL-CDG.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2891
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:41 am

trexel94 wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
trexel94 wrote:

Its ironic how MCI has a TATL and not STL.

I don't see MCI-KEF lasting much longer. They only started that to counter WOW's STL-KEF route.

Huh? You're out of the loop. FI posted an 84% average capacity for the first season which is pretty good for a new airline with virtually no local brand recognition. Better than what FI officials expected. They're also boosting frequency from 3x per week to 4x. Why would they add flights if they're only in MCI to spite Wow Air when Wow air never served MCI to begin with?


The loads were not 84%. They were in the low to mid 70s. That said I think it will be fine. I would expect them to go up this year. Wish they would have stuck with the 757 over the MAX8 though
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2891
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Second tier cities to get Transatlantic service

Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:44 am

klm617 wrote:
I think there is justification for both STL and CMH perhaps their airports are not properly marketing their markets.


The more I learn about STL goings on, the more it sounds like they aren't doing the best job going out to businesses and asking for help with incentives. I thought it would be a given they were doing this, but I may have been making a wrong assumption.

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