od-bwh
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Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:27 pm

There are lots of Russians that call Toronto home. But why aren't there any direct flights between this pair? Judging from those facts, would it be political?
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SCQ83
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:31 pm

Transaero used to fly that city pair.

Maybe the market is too VFR-oriented and low yield. Even NYC-Moscow is usually quite cheap. Connections via Europe on Toronto-Moscow are plenty. And I doubt many Russians take holidays in chilly Toronto like they do in Miami.
 
hoons90
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:42 pm

Aeroflot attempted SVO-YYZ twice, and failed both times (late 90's-2009; again in 2013-2014).
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YYZLGA
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:43 pm

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if AC had considered the route during their recent major expansion. If I recall correctly, it was on some of AC's "possible future destinations" maps. I suspect that the current poor political relationship between the two countries makes the addition unlikely in the near future. The challenge of getting visas for either country also doesn't help. But if AC can make routes like YYZ-OTP work, YYZ-Moscow is certainly plausible.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:50 pm

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if AC had considered the route during their recent major expansion. If I recall correctly, it was on some of AC's "possible future destinations" maps. I suspect that the current poor political relationship between the two countries makes the addition unlikely in the near future. The challenge of getting visas for either country also doesn't help. But if AC can make routes like YYZ-OTP work, YYZ-Moscow is certainly plausible.
 
santi319
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:03 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
hoons90 wrote:
Aeroflot attempted SVO-YYZ twice, and failed both times (late 90's-2009; again in 2013-2014).


That really is surprising considering the possible connections to the CIS, but then again most of those expats are not really fans of Mother Russia so who knows.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:33 pm

There's no Atlanta - Moscow either, despite the fact that they're the largest hub for two big SkyTeam airlines (Delta and Aeroflot). If Atlanta - Moscow doesn't work, how can you expect Toronto - Moscow to work? Air Canada doesn't have a Star Alliance partner in Moscow, so it's a dead end for them. Aeroflot could possibly codeshare with WestJet, which is a SkyTeam associate airline, but even that's plausible.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:34 pm

AC not going to Moscow.
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ac33e
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:07 pm

YYZLGA wrote:
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if AC had considered the route during their recent major expansion. If I recall correctly, it was on some of AC's "possible future destinations" maps. I suspect that the current poor political relationship between the two countries makes the addition unlikely in the near future. The challenge of getting visas for either country also doesn't help. But if AC can make routes like YYZ-OTP work, YYZ-Moscow is certainly plausible.


The major difference (also a dealbreaker) being that OTP can be served 3 weekly on a Rouge 767. Try getting that thing up to Moscow LOL
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:18 pm

ac33e wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if AC had considered the route during their recent major expansion. If I recall correctly, it was on some of AC's "possible future destinations" maps. I suspect that the current poor political relationship between the two countries makes the addition unlikely in the near future. The challenge of getting visas for either country also doesn't help. But if AC can make routes like YYZ-OTP work, YYZ-Moscow is certainly plausible.


The major difference (also a dealbreaker) being that OTP can be served 3 weekly on a Rouge 767. Try getting that thing up to Moscow LOL


The other major difference is that it is very annoying to get a visa to travel to Russia for a Canadian or US citizen (even Aeroflot was complaining that it was difficult for their flight crews to get visas for the USA) whereas you can travel to Romania without a visa. I can't imagine the yields to Moscow are particularly good either since it would mostly be VFR traffic.
 
YYZLGA
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:01 pm

ac33e wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if AC had considered the route during their recent major expansion. If I recall correctly, it was on some of AC's "possible future destinations" maps. I suspect that the current poor political relationship between the two countries makes the addition unlikely in the near future. The challenge of getting visas for either country also doesn't help. But if AC can make routes like YYZ-OTP work, YYZ-Moscow is certainly plausible.


The major difference (also a dealbreaker) being that OTP can be served 3 weekly on a Rouge 767. Try getting that thing up to Moscow LOL


A 763 can definitely get to Moscow. It's over 1000mi closer to YYZ than TLV, and AC flew 763s YYZ-TLV for years. It was a pretty amazing plane for its time.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:03 pm

ac33e wrote:
YYZLGA wrote:
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if AC had considered the route during their recent major expansion. If I recall correctly, it was on some of AC's "possible future destinations" maps. I suspect that the current poor political relationship between the two countries makes the addition unlikely in the near future. The challenge of getting visas for either country also doesn't help. But if AC can make routes like YYZ-OTP work, YYZ-Moscow is certainly plausible.


The major difference (also a dealbreaker) being that OTP can be served 3 weekly on a Rouge 767. Try getting that thing up to Moscow LOL


What do you mean:

YYZ (43°40'36"N 79°37'50"W) OTP (44°34'20"N 26°06'08"E) 47° (NE) 4203 nm

YYZ (43°40'36"N 79°37'50"W) DME (55°24'31"N 37°54'23"E) 33° (NE) 4080 nm
YYZ (43°40'36"N 79°37'50"W) SVO (55°58'21"N 37°24'47"E) 33° (NE) 4044 nm

It's ~150nm shorter to Moscow?
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YYZORD
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:07 pm

I know some take a greyhound from Toronto to NYC and then fly Aeroflot out of JFK. Even if you fly out of BUF, B6 and DL both have good connections with Aeroflot at JFK.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:14 pm

I think the answer is just so many connection options in Europe or even NYC. Demand is there, but they probably are not willing to pay enough of a premium just for a non-stop.

Not ever route with enough demand deserves a non-stop especially a route that has so many connection options already and so many airlines are bidding the price down with those connections.
 
Kilopond
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:50 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think the answer is just so many connection options in Europe or even NYC. [...]


:eek: One has to be a moron or a masochist to voluntarily connect in the US if it can be avoided. :eek: However, you are perfectly Right: ihere are plenty of options for travelling from many points in Canada via points in Europe to MOW.
 
alan3
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:28 pm

I've found this surprising too that there isn't enough market for a single flight between Canada and Russia. According to Wikipedia there are over half a million Russian Canadians.

Saying that there are plenty of European connections doesn't really explain it. You can fly from YYZ direct to Budapest, Bucharest, Warsaw, Prague, Kiev and Zagreb, all of which have smaller populations and could also be easily connected via European hubs too.

I think the sour relations between Canada and Russia may have something to do with it, as well as the visa requirements. Even in the US, DL couldn't make Moscow work either.
 
od-bwh
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:42 pm

If AC can fill up planes from YVR to Australia, I’m sure they can fill up a dreamliner to Moscow. LOT flies to YYZ. I get that the visa could be annoying.
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jplatts
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:01 am

od-bwh wrote:
If AC can fill up planes from YVR to Australia, I’m sure they can fill up a dreamliner to Moscow. LOT flies to YYZ. I get that the visa could be annoying.


One big difference is that both LO and AC are both in the Star Alliance, whereas SU is in the SkyTeam alliance. LO also offers connections to destinations in Eastern Europe, Israel, Georgia, Kazakhstan, and India at WAW.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:09 am

jplatts wrote:
od-bwh wrote:
If AC can fill up planes from YVR to Australia, I’m sure they can fill up a dreamliner to Moscow. LOT flies to YYZ. I get that the visa could be annoying.


One big difference is that both LO and AC are both in the Star Alliance, whereas SU is in the SkyTeam alliance. LO also offers connections to destinations in Eastern Europe, Israel, Georgia, Kazakhstan, and India at WAW.


It also helps that Toronto has a huge Polish population that does still have close ties to Poland...not to mention the fact Poland has some great cities to visit.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:00 am

With preclearance at YYZ and bussing options to NYC from Toronto, I don't see the issue with transiting through the US if your a Canadian citizen...

Kilopond wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think the answer is just so many connection options in Europe or even NYC. [...]


:eek: One has to be a moron or a masochist to voluntarily connect in the US if it can be avoided. :eek: However, you are perfectly Right: ihere are plenty of options for travelling from many points in Canada via points in Europe to MOW.
 
Beatyair
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:37 am

Airlines know how many people are requesting flights from a place to a place. As far as Toronto to Moscow, it is easier to fly to Amsterdam, Frankfurt, or London and then catching a flight to Moscow.
 
od-bwh
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:40 pm

YYZORD wrote:
With preclearance at YYZ and bussing options to NYC from Toronto, I don't see the issue with transiting through the US if your a Canadian citizen...

Kilopond wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
I think the answer is just so many connection options in Europe or even NYC. [...]


:eek: One has to be a moron or a masochist to voluntarily connect in the US if it can be avoided. :eek: However, you are perfectly Right: ihere are plenty of options for travelling from many points in Canada via points in Europe to MOW.


I’m not following. How does preclearance at YYZ and bussing to NY relate? You can’t go through preclearance at the airport and then turn back and take the bus!
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:47 pm

od-bwh wrote:
I’m not following. How does preclearance at YYZ and bussing to NY relate? You can’t go through preclearance at the airport and then turn back and take the bus!


Of course not at the same time, but both are viable options for people from Toronto to fly to Moscow through New York. Either you fly to New York or you take the bus, it doesn't matter. Both are easy to do. As an in between option taking the bus from Toronto to Buffalo and then flying from Buffalo to New York was also mentioned.

However what you need to consider is that the demand between Canada and Russia isn't concentrated in Toronto, it's scattered all over Canada. This means most people would have to make a transfer anyway, even if there were direct flights between Toronto and Moscow. And if you need to transfer anyway, what does it matter where that is? It doesn't have to be Toronto. Plenty of flights from secondary Canadian airports to Europe, where you can connect to Moscow or elsewhere in Russia for that matter.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:45 pm

No real issues getting from Canada to Russia, there are one stop options between all the major cities.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:54 pm

Yea I was stating both are viable options when connecting in the US from Toronto. Why do people in Vancouver drive to Seattle just to fly EK out of SEA? Same thing here but with Toronto and Moscow with Aeroflot.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
od-bwh wrote:
I’m not following. How does preclearance at YYZ and bussing to NY relate? You can’t go through preclearance at the airport and then turn back and take the bus!


Of course not at the same time, but both are viable options for people from Toronto to fly to Moscow through New York. Either you fly to New York or you take the bus, it doesn't matter. Both are easy to do. As an in between option taking the bus from Toronto to Buffalo and then flying from Buffalo to New York was also mentioned.

However what you need to consider is that the demand between Canada and Russia isn't concentrated in Toronto, it's scattered all over Canada. This means most people would have to make a transfer anyway, even if there were direct flights between Toronto and Moscow. And if you need to transfer anyway, what does it matter where that is? It doesn't have to be Toronto. Plenty of flights from secondary Canadian airports to Europe, where you can connect to Moscow or elsewhere in Russia for that matter.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:41 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Why do people in Vancouver drive to Seattle just to fly EK out of SEA?


Probably because it's cheaper, fares out of Canada are insane due to the high taxes. In the USA the taxes, and therefor the fares, are a lot lower. For most Canadians it pays off to travel to the USA and fly from there.

This isn't unique to the American-Canadian border by the way, it happens everywhere there's a difference in taxes between neighboring countries. Here in Europe several countries have a departure tax, also known as APD. Other countries don't. We regularly see people from the taxed countries travel to the untaxed countries for their flights. It easily saves a few bucks.
 
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longhauler
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:06 pm

Rest assured that Air Canada and Aeroflot (for example) know exactly how many people wish to travel between Toronto and Moscow. That there are no flgihts indicates how many.

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Probably because it's cheaper, fares out of Canada are insane due to the high taxes. In the USA the taxes, and therefor the fares, are a lot lower. For most Canadians it pays off to travel to the USA and fly from there.

But only if your destination is the United States, as US domestic flights charge no taxes, nor Customs/Immigration fees.

For international flights, YYZ (for example) is considerably cheaper than BUF. Just checking for Monday, the cheapest YYZ-LON flight is C$320. BUF is around C$1200. (Other than one 3 leg marathon, including a stop in Portugal for C$620).

It is not uncommon for Americans to come to Canada for cheap international flights.
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OceanAir
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Re: Why aren't there flights between Toronto and Moscow?

Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:41 pm

od-bwh wrote:
If AC can fill up planes from YVR to Australia, I’m sure they can fill up a dreamliner to Moscow. LOT flies to YYZ. I get that the visa could be annoying.


What does LO/Warsaw/Poland have to do with SU/Moscow/Russia? Apples and oranges really.

jplatts wrote:
od-bwh wrote:
If AC can fill up planes from YVR to Australia, I’m sure they can fill up a dreamliner to Moscow. LOT flies to YYZ. I get that the visa could be annoying.


One big difference is that both LO and AC are both in the Star Alliance, whereas SU is in the SkyTeam alliance. LO also offers connections to destinations in Eastern Europe, Israel, Georgia, Kazakhstan, and India at WAW.


:checkmark:

Dominion301 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
od-bwh wrote:
If AC can fill up planes from YVR to Australia, I’m sure they can fill up a dreamliner to Moscow. LOT flies to YYZ. I get that the visa could be annoying.


One big difference is that both LO and AC are both in the Star Alliance, whereas SU is in the SkyTeam alliance. LO also offers connections to destinations in Eastern Europe, Israel, Georgia, Kazakhstan, and India at WAW.


It also helps that Toronto has a huge Polish population that does still have close ties to Poland...not to mention the fact Poland has some great cities to visit.


This. While they are both in Star Alliance and codeshare, LO seems to be putting pressure on AC. LO is going almost double daily, all 789 soon. AC, meanwhile, is going back to Rouge (I think). Not surprised they aren't the carrier of choice - flying those ratty old 763s won't attract many.

On another note, I think the biggest elephant in the room on this thread is that Russian Canadians, like Russian Americans, are mostly Jews from the former Soviet Union. Not including some random people of Russian descent living for generations in North Dakota and Alaska. If you look at census figures/heritage studies, the areas with the highest proportion of Russian ancestry in the U.S. are places like Great Neck, Roslyn, the Five Towns, other towns in Nassau County, Brighton Beach Brooklyn (all in New York). Anyone from the New York area can confirm that these places are Jewish ghettos (not economically disadvantaged), in the classic definition - one race/ethnicity/religion living in a bubble. Most of these people are flying to Israel, not Russia. Hop on an LY flight from NYC - you'll hear plenty of Russian. Hop on SU at JFK and you'll find plenty of random people headed to Asia, with a sprinkling of Russian tourists.

Polish Americans (and Canadians) are actually ethnically Polish and are headed to Poland, with family and business ties in both countries (or all three since we're talking about Canada here). Add in no visas for Americans and Canadians in Poland, no visas for Poles in Canada (not that hard for U.S., and probably none by the end of the year), and transfer traffic/tourism from North America to Poland and increasingly from Poland to North America/government traffic/cargo and now you see why things are the way they are.

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