LondonXtreme
Topic Author
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Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:11 am

My friend travels periodically between PHL and LHR, and primary flying AA over BA. The flight is always between 50% and 70% full(Both J and Y class). It seems weaker compare with other AA's LHR routes from JFK, ORD, LAX, MIA, DFW, CLT.As we know, PHL is AA's gateway to Europe from the east coast. Geographically, it is sandwiched between JFK and CLT.

How is AA's other transatlantic route doing from PHL?
What if AA use CLT instead of PHL for it's gateway to Europe?
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1914
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:19 am

It's doing fine, Premium cargo heavy. They run it 2x with the 333, unlike the CLT route that occasionally becomes a 332.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
N292UX
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:26 am

As for CLT becoming AA's gateway to Europe instead of PHL... No. PHL has higher O&D, plus a much higher pull for transatlantic flights than CLT would. If AA were to drop a bunch of their TATL flights from PHL except for say LHR/CDG, someone would pick most of them up ASAP. PHL has sufficient connecting options for their flights so there's no reason to shift them to CLT. Plus, gate space may be an issue at CLT, too.
 
Runway28L
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:32 am

First of all, AA is not going to switch over from PHL to CLT as their transatlantic gateway. There is not enough room in Concourse D to take up most of the PHL operation. Plus CLT is too far South for any connections coming in from the Northeast to be efficient.

And second, while they provide some insight, loads don’t always paint a picture of how the flight does financially. AA could be charging a fare that offsets lighter loads, thus making the flight still profitable.

Also, even if the flight wasn’t performing well, cutting PHL-LHR would be a terrible decision for AA as it would handicap them against DL, UA, and European airlines. It’s a route AA needs in its network to remain competitive.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:33 am

I do not know, but I got a roundtrip ticket on AA from DEN to LHR via PHL for 500 dollars over Spring Break period. Maybe AA is marketing itself as a low fare airline now. I know when I fly AA the service and comfort is awful, but for 500 dollars I can't complain. Delta and United were double to LHR. I have noticed very cheap international fares on AA through PHL for travel in the summer as well. I never can find a cheap fare on Delta as often, it seems they can charge a premium for better service.
 
b777a340fan
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:39 am

When has PHL become the gateway to Europe? Over JFK? Hmmm
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:50 am

AA inherited US's TATL gateway at PHL and has been a focus for AA for some time, though with some adjustments. FRA and MUC are being dropped from PHL as these were legacy routes from the US Airways system and network, when US was a Star Alliance member and could feed into LH's hubs at FRA and MUC and LH could feed into US's hub at PHL. AA has essentially, a lot less to virtually no competition from PHL to Europe. BA is a partner airline. The only other airline with daily service to Europe from PHL other than AA and BA/EI is LH with Icelandair operating seasonally to KEF. Air France and Delta have pulled out of the PHL TATL market. The focus on PHL TATL traffic for American, which has a large hub there, has come to some extent at the expense of JFK, which used to be a more prominent TATL gateway to Europe for the airline. The JFK-ZRH route, which has operated since the late 1980's and was only cut once and then restarted, was shifted to PHL in March 2018. EDI (seasonal) has moved back and forth between PHL and JFK and is back to PHL this summer. AA cut MAN from JFK (partly because it flies it from PHL), BHX from JFK was cut entirely, and what is left at JFK is LHR, CDG, MXP, BCN, and FCO (seasonal) with DUB also being seasonal. The consensus on this forum is that AA will eventually shift MXP to PHL, cut BCN once LEVEL enters the market. So, PHL isn't the gateway to Europe but it is AA's primary gateway to Europe and probably its largest.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:59 am

AA is double-daily with the 333 and JV partner BA is daily with the premium-heavy 275-seat 744 (14F, 86J, 30W, 145M) plus an extra three weekly 226-seat 772s (14F, 48J, 40W, 124M) this summer from 31 March to 25 October. All of this suggests that the route does sustain premium traffic and is doing well enough to maintain the schedule.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:04 am

b777a340fan wrote:
When has PHL become the gateway to Europe? Over JFK? Hmmm


Poster never said that. Read what you wrote and what they wrote again.
 
Bigant0408
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:44 am

At what part of the year does your friend travel this route? If it was during the winter months then that’s probably more understandable as yields are probably low for travel during that time.
The man who sleeps on the floor doesn’t fall out of bed
 
steeler83
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:26 am

gunnerman wrote:
AA is double-daily with the 333 and JV partner BA is daily with the premium-heavy 275-seat 744 (14F, 86J, 30W, 145M) plus an extra three weekly 226-seat 772s (14F, 48J, 40W, 124M) this summer from 31 March to 25 October. All of this suggests that the route does sustain premium traffic and is doing well enough to maintain the schedule.

I do wonder if the 744 wil fly into PHL until it's retired, or if it will be replaced with something else before then. On the subject of PHL as the prime gateway to Europe, that has been AA's focus since the AA/US merger was completed. Tbat status isn't changing anytime soon. Not to mention. PHL was US' most profitable hub by far, generating about 40% of US' revenue. I'm sure the Int'l network was a huge factor. Now, shift that component down to CLT. CLT won't generate the ROI that PHL does, resulting in an overall drop in revenue between the 2 hubs. At least, that's how I see it.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
acentauri
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:17 am

LondonXtreme wrote:
My friend travels periodically between PHL and LHR, and primary flying AA over BA. The flight is always between 50% and 70% full(Both J and Y class). It seems weaker compare with other AA's LHR routes from JFK, ORD, LAX, MIA, DFW, CLT.As we know, PHL is AA's gateway to Europe from the east coast. Geographically, it is sandwiched between JFK and CLT.

How is AA's other transatlantic route doing from PHL?
What if AA use CLT instead of PHL for it's gateway to Europe?

My personal opinion is that AA will dehub PHL and move all international activity to CLT, plus 70% of the JFK-LHR services. CLT will also get 2 Flagship Lounges as well as Flagship First Check in. PHL will be relegated to a regional feeder for AA with flights restricted to 1000nm and all except the Terminal "F" Lounge will be closed. 2 years later, AA will become insolvent. Vision oriented DL will see this as a huge opportunity and move most of their JFK/DFW Europe connecting services to PHL to take advantage of the available real estate, PHL's relative cheapness (Terminal / Landing Fees costs) and prime geographic location. Further, DL will lease 1 Acela Amtrak train for prime time bi-hourly service between Penn Station NYC and PHL airport (connecting train services are already in place). The AA BOD will fire the CEO, who will move to Philadelphia and assume leadership for revival of the Duck Boat. :roll: :roll: :roll:
 
joeman
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:28 am

Facinating suggestion... Nothing against PHL, just our armchair a.netter CEO's who know so much about airline "metrics". I thought considering the a.netter vulchers with their media fed contempt for former Midwest/ "rust belt" or other hubs that supposedly just can't make it happen because of being too small of O&D (with exceptions), or proximity to other hubs (with exceptions) was now gospel and anything and everything from a "hub" city was suppose to be golden and hardly a source of question. Such loads, despite whatever convoluted "yield" or payload crap spewed if true, would never be accepted outside of your beloved hub cities. And dumb ass a.netters still balk at why any medium sized US city fans could have the audacity to suggest expansion P2P service to places they had so long, long ago, before hubbing was fashionable, or never at all. My favorite a.netter pushback on a new nonstop BUF-LAX on B6 was, 3 years ago, still operating. I'll exclude the suggestion of a lot of P2P service in the NE corridor for short runs where freeways, TSA, and cost no longer make sense.

So today, when NK enters CLT, then AA pumps it up even more (very cost effective), but when NK entered CLE, UA drops even further, post hub. But...gotta protect the fortress hub, at the expense of feed cities...ALWAYS and again, everything operating from a hub just makes sense cause the unprofitable make up for that which might not be, so nice. And as a finance guy from a governmental entity, I know spokespeople never skew numbers to sell themselves to the brainwashed public.
 
ScottB
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:48 am

N292UX wrote:
If AA were to drop a bunch of their TATL flights from PHL except for say LHR/CDG, someone would pick most of them up ASAP.


Nope. AA is dropping PHL-MUC and the carrier with a MUC hub is doing nothing. The only route which might be backfilled by another carrier would be PHL-AMS on DL or KL. Even the ME3 and TK have avoided PHL apart from QR which is a oneworld member.

gunnerman wrote:
AA is double-daily with the 333 and JV partner BA is daily with the premium-heavy 275-seat 744 (14F, 86J, 30W, 145M) plus an extra three weekly 226-seat 772s (14F, 48J, 40W, 124M) this summer from 31 March to 25 October. All of this suggests that the route does sustain premium traffic and is doing well enough to maintain the schedule.


Actually, the double-daily A333 on AA suggests very poor premium demand. The A333 has the largest Y cabin in the fleet (even more than the 77W) and only the A332 and one version of the 788 have smaller J cabins. A single AA 77W has more premium seats than two A333s. The high-J BA 744 helps to balance this out, but overall it's not a strong premium market.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1914
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:16 am

ScottB wrote:
N292UX wrote:
If AA were to drop a bunch of their TATL flights from PHL except for say LHR/CDG, someone would pick most of them up ASAP.


Nope. AA is dropping PHL-MUC and the carrier with a MUC hub is doing nothing. The only route which might be backfilled by another carrier would be PHL-AMS on DL or KL. Even the ME3 and TK have avoided PHL apart from QR which is a oneworld member.

gunnerman wrote:
AA is double-daily with the 333 and JV partner BA is daily with the premium-heavy 275-seat 744 (14F, 86J, 30W, 145M) plus an extra three weekly 226-seat 772s (14F, 48J, 40W, 124M) this summer from 31 March to 25 October. All of this suggests that the route does sustain premium traffic and is doing well enough to maintain the schedule.


Actually, the double-daily A333 on AA suggests very poor premium demand. The A333 has the largest Y cabin in the fleet (even more than the 77W) and only the A332 and one version of the 788 have smaller J cabins. A single AA 77W has more premium seats than two A333s. The high-J BA 744 helps to balance this out, but overall it's not a strong premium market.


The AA A333's have one of the lowest seat/mile costs across the Atlantic right now. It's a short route with low costs in Philadelphia on an airplane that excels in the 3500nm segment.

The cargo is very premium. I know for a fact that it is one of the single largest export routes for US pharmaceutical products to the UK.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
lowfareair
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:26 am

ScottB wrote:
N292UX wrote:
If AA were to drop a bunch of their TATL flights from PHL except for say LHR/CDG, someone would pick most of them up ASAP.


Nope. AA is dropping PHL-MUC and the carrier with a MUC hub is doing nothing. The only route which might be backfilled by another carrier would be PHL-AMS on DL or KL. Even the ME3 and TK have avoided PHL apart from QR which is a oneworld member.


AA cut the MUC route right as LH announced S19 schedules. That may have allowed them to reshuffle planes to the get the 744 for FRA but probably limited their ability to add an extra flight. I think MUC has a good chance of happening in S20.
 
acentauri
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:33 am

ScottB wrote:
.................
gunnerman wrote:
AA is double-daily with the 333 and JV partner BA is daily with the premium-heavy 275-seat 744 (14F, 86J, 30W, 145M) plus an extra three weekly 226-seat 772s (14F, 48J, 40W, 124M) this summer from 31 March to 25 October. All of this suggests that the route does sustain premium traffic and is doing well enough to maintain the schedule.


Actually, the double-daily A333 on AA suggests very poor premium demand. The A333 has the largest Y cabin in the fleet (even more than the 77W) and only the A332 and one version of the 788 have smaller J cabins. A single AA 77W has more premium seats than two A333s. The high-J BA 744 helps to balance this out, but overall it's not a strong premium market.


AA can't dump the 333s until they have replacements now can they ?? The 787s to replace the 333s and 767s will BEGIN arriving at PHL in January and are part of the 4/2018 new aircraft order.
 
airzona11
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:19 am

BA offers a lot of premium traffic on the route (JV Neutral). As pointed out, AA has the lowest CASM option to people the people mover (and cargo) with the A330. This route has lots of service and lots of options AA/BA.
 
flyboy7974
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:26 am

Quarter after quarter, PHLLHR is actually one of the highest revenue generating routes in the PHL TA network. Minus the main cabin, the amount of cargo plus front end corporate contract clientele the airline flies between the JV has sustained the route at 3X daily, and sometimes, 4X daily.
 
Eirules
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:33 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
AA inherited US's TATL gateway at PHL and has been a focus for AA for some time, though with some adjustments. FRA and MUC are being dropped from PHL as these were legacy routes from the US Airways system and network, when US was a Star Alliance member and could feed into LH's hubs at FRA and MUC and LH could feed into US's hub at PHL. AA has essentially, a lot less to virtually no competition from PHL to Europe. BA is a partner airline. The only other airline with daily service to Europe from PHL other than AA and BA/EI is LH with Icelandair operating seasonally to KEF. Air France and Delta have pulled out of the PHL TATL market. The focus on PHL TATL traffic for American, which has a large hub there, has come to some extent at the expense of JFK, which used to be a more prominent TATL gateway to Europe for the airline. The JFK-ZRH route, which has operated since the late 1980's and was only cut once and then restarted, was shifted to PHL in March 2018. EDI (seasonal) has moved back and forth between PHL and JFK and is back to PHL this summer. AA cut MAN from JFK (partly because it flies it from PHL), BHX from JFK was cut entirely, and what is left at JFK is LHR, CDG, MXP, BCN, and FCO (seasonal) with DUB also being seasonal. The consensus on this forum is that AA will eventually shift MXP to PHL, cut BCN once LEVEL enters the market. So, PHL isn't the gateway to Europe but it is AA's primary gateway to Europe and probably its largest.


DUB isn’t seasonal. Hasn’t been for years. Started out as a seasonal 757 in around 2007/8 but has grown into a year round A330 route
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jagraham
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:42 am

Also AA's ability to operate as a single integrated entity is measured in months, not years. Before that, moving a flight from PHL to JFK or vice versa would entail starting from the US or AA home base and flying to the other hub before crossing the Atlantic. Still, I am in the PHL pretty much stays the same camp.
 
royroy
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:43 am

As people have said it LHR-PHL is a huge pharma market both ways. They will be regularly carrying envirotainers which fetch a lot of money per unit. They will be pulling 100k plus each day on the round trip of both flights
 
ScrantonUSC
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:26 am

Aside from CTL not being feasible for TATL connections on a country-wide basis do to location, it has no where near the required O&D.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:23 am

According to UK Civil Aviation Authority, in December there were 36626 passengers travelled between London and Philadelphia. So daily 1181 passengers. AA's A330 can seat 291 passengers. And BA has 275 seats daily. So that is 857 seats per day or 1714 seats per return journey. Average load thus is 68.9%. If you minus non-rev, the real figure is close to 62%-65%. And my personal information gathered indicate that BA has much higher passenger loads. If you discount the holiday high loading days, AA's average loading is well below 50%.

So from a passenger loading point of view, PHL is the worst performing transatlantic route between USA and London Heathrow.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:59 pm

They cut PHL-MUC, and adding CLT-MUC.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:12 pm

Eirules wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
AA inherited US's TATL gateway at PHL and has been a focus for AA for some time, though with some adjustments. FRA and MUC are being dropped from PHL as these were legacy routes from the US Airways system and network, when US was a Star Alliance member and could feed into LH's hubs at FRA and MUC and LH could feed into US's hub at PHL. AA has essentially, a lot less to virtually no competition from PHL to Europe. BA is a partner airline. The only other airline with daily service to Europe from PHL other than AA and BA/EI is LH with Icelandair operating seasonally to KEF. Air France and Delta have pulled out of the PHL TATL market. The focus on PHL TATL traffic for American, which has a large hub there, has come to some extent at the expense of JFK, which used to be a more prominent TATL gateway to Europe for the airline. The JFK-ZRH route, which has operated since the late 1980's and was only cut once and then restarted, was shifted to PHL in March 2018. EDI (seasonal) has moved back and forth between PHL and JFK and is back to PHL this summer. AA cut MAN from JFK (partly because it flies it from PHL), BHX from JFK was cut entirely, and what is left at JFK is LHR, CDG, MXP, BCN, and FCO (seasonal) with DUB also being seasonal. The consensus on this forum is that AA will eventually shift MXP to PHL, cut BCN once LEVEL enters the market. So, PHL isn't the gateway to Europe but it is AA's primary gateway to Europe and probably its largest.


DUB isn’t seasonal. Hasn’t been for years. Started out as a seasonal 757 in around 2007/8 but has grown into a year round A330 route


DUB has been a seasonal 757 from JFK for a time, and it is now gone. I was referencing DUB from JFK, not PHL.
 
Eirules
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:27 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Eirules wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
AA inherited US's TATL gateway at PHL and has been a focus for AA for some time, though with some adjustments. FRA and MUC are being dropped from PHL as these were legacy routes from the US Airways system and network, when US was a Star Alliance member and could feed into LH's hubs at FRA and MUC and LH could feed into US's hub at PHL. AA has essentially, a lot less to virtually no competition from PHL to Europe. BA is a partner airline. The only other airline with daily service to Europe from PHL other than AA and BA/EI is LH with Icelandair operating seasonally to KEF. Air France and Delta have pulled out of the PHL TATL market. The focus on PHL TATL traffic for American, which has a large hub there, has come to some extent at the expense of JFK, which used to be a more prominent TATL gateway to Europe for the airline. The JFK-ZRH route, which has operated since the late 1980's and was only cut once and then restarted, was shifted to PHL in March 2018. EDI (seasonal) has moved back and forth between PHL and JFK and is back to PHL this summer. AA cut MAN from JFK (partly because it flies it from PHL), BHX from JFK was cut entirely, and what is left at JFK is LHR, CDG, MXP, BCN, and FCO (seasonal) with DUB also being seasonal. The consensus on this forum is that AA will eventually shift MXP to PHL, cut BCN once LEVEL enters the market. So, PHL isn't the gateway to Europe but it is AA's primary gateway to Europe and probably its largest.


DUB isn’t seasonal. Hasn’t been for years. Started out as a seasonal 757 in around 2007/8 but has grown into a year round A330 route


DUB has been a seasonal 757 from JFK for a time, and it is now gone. I was referencing DUB from JFK, not PHL.


Sorry my bad. Yeah, JFK-DUB has finally been dropped with DFW-DUB coming in this summer. AA had the weakest product in the DUB-NYC route with EI, DL & UA all operating wide bodies with PTVs throughout. Once EI join the joint venture, we’ll see AA codeshare on the route again
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Bigant0408
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:36 pm

chonetsao wrote:
According to UK Civil Aviation Authority, in December there were 36626 passengers travelled between London and Philadelphia. So daily 1181 passengers. AA's A330 can seat 291 passengers. And BA has 275 seats daily. So that is 857 seats per day or 1714 seats per return journey. Average load thus is 68.9%. If you minus non-rev, the real figure is close to 62%-65%. And my personal information gathered indicate that BA has much higher passenger loads. If you discount the holiday high loading days, AA's average loading is well below 50%.

So from a passenger loading point of view, PHL is the worst performing transatlantic route between USA and London Heathrow.


With December being in winter season for travel this would make sense as not as many people travel TA during that time. I understand your point so maybe it worst performing route during winter season but overall yearround I’m sure it does pretty well especially during summer months with 3-4 routes per day
The man who sleeps on the floor doesn’t fall out of bed
 
Bigant0408
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:39 pm

lowfareair wrote:
ScottB wrote:
N292UX wrote:
If AA were to drop a bunch of their TATL flights from PHL except for say LHR/CDG, someone would pick most of them up ASAP.


Nope. AA is dropping PHL-MUC and the carrier with a MUC hub is doing nothing. The only route which might be backfilled by another carrier would be PHL-AMS on DL or KL. Even the ME3 and TK have avoided PHL apart from QR which is a oneworld member.


AA cut the MUC route right as LH announced S19 schedules. That may have allowed them to reshuffle planes to the get the 744 for FRA but probably limited their ability to add an extra flight. I think MUC has a good chance of happening in S20.


I have a feeling LH will base there performance with the 747 this year to see if it warrants a PHL-MUC route next year which I hope it does. Probably would be seasonal but nonetheless awesome sight to see
The man who sleeps on the floor doesn’t fall out of bed
 
sagechan
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:16 pm

ScottB wrote:

Actually, the double-daily A333 on AA suggests very poor premium demand. The A333 has the largest Y cabin in the fleet (even more than the 77W) and only the A332 and one version of the 788 have smaller J cabins. A single AA 77W has more premium seats than two A333s. The high-J BA 744 helps to balance this out, but overall it's not a strong premium market.


This ignores the fact that AA has been very aggressive in keeping wide-bodies to certain Hubs, PHL only sees the A330 & 767 at this time and of those the A333 has the most J seats, plus BA picks up a lot of slack there. Not having the 77W on PHL is only indicative that PHL doesn't get 777s. (I doubt PHL would have a 77W anyway)
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ltbewr
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:38 pm

PHL market area which included lower central and southern NJ, eastern/southeastern PA, DE and portions of MD is a significant hub of banking, financial services, corporate HQ's (like Dow/DuPont in Wilmington,DE), pharmaceutical and other industries. With connecting flights, it can also include PIT, western PA. That matches well with the LRH end as London a major business, banking and insurance hub as well as connections with partner BA throughout Europe, to Africa and ME. That in turn supports PHL as a profitable premium heavy and high value cargo route for AA.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:44 pm

ltbewr wrote:
PHL market area which included lower central and southern NJ, eastern/southeastern PA, DE and portions of MD is a significant hub of banking, financial services, corporate HQ's (like Dow/DuPont in Wilmington,DE), pharmaceutical and other industries. With connecting flights, it can also include PIT, western PA. That matches well with the LRH end as London a major business, banking and insurance hub as well as connections with partner BA throughout Europe, to Africa and ME. That in turn supports PHL as a profitable premium heavy and high value cargo route for AA.


what high value cargo?


There are always claims of "cargo", but cargo follows the same principals as passengers, wanting the lowest possible cost for travel as the forwarders want to make a premium as well.
 
 
CALMSP
Posts: 2983
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:51 pm

yes, pharmaceuticals are in the area, but that doesn't mean that an entire plane is full of them on AA to LHR every day, as they would be moving over a multitude of airlines.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:54 pm

Bigant0408 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
According to UK Civil Aviation Authority, in December there were 36626 passengers travelled between London and Philadelphia. So daily 1181 passengers. AA's A330 can seat 291 passengers. And BA has 275 seats daily. So that is 857 seats per day or 1714 seats per return journey. Average load thus is 68.9%. If you minus non-rev, the real figure is close to 62%-65%. And my personal information gathered indicate that BA has much higher passenger loads. If you discount the holiday high loading days, AA's average loading is well below 50%.

So from a passenger loading point of view, PHL is the worst performing transatlantic route between USA and London Heathrow.


With December being in winter season for travel this would make sense as not as many people travel TA during that time. I understand your point so maybe it worst performing route during winter season but overall yearround I’m sure it does pretty well especially during summer months with 3-4 routes per day


Overall in summer time this route is not any better if you are to compare the load with routes let us say DFW/MIA to LHR. Maybe we can wait until July and revisit the topic when loads for MAY/JUNE is published by UK CAA in its website. For example, in JUNE 2018 the route had 48,147 pax (93.6%?). JULY 2018 (86.67%?) has 46,054 pax. AUGUST 2018 has 45,304 pax (85.26%?). I put a question mark here because I don't know how many flights a day during summer months and which aircraft type BA used.

UK CAA publish the passenger and freight figures month by month so one could see the figures if they are interested. I believe January figure will be out soon. My understanding is that it is not a pretty reading.

Like ScottB said, I personally believe A332/A333 (the AA version) is the wrong aircraft for US/LHR with AA. AA needs a premium heavy B788 for missions like ORD/CLT/PHL to London. A B788 with 28J/21W/140+-Y layout would be more appropriate for overall pax demands for these 3 routes in today's frequency. Yes, in summer time this layout would loose out Y capacity but this can be funnelled through JV partners and by adding additional flights or substitute to A333/B777. A332/333 works wonders for US Airways in low premium/heavy VFR environment. But clearly under AA and LHR, A332/A333 has a problem to fill up the cabin especially in the back.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:58 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
CALMSP wrote:
yes, pharmaceuticals are in the area, but that doesn't mean that an entire plane is full of them on AA to LHR every day, as they would be moving over a multitude of airlines.

The cargo is always full and companies have to book cargo space in advance.

Before I went into maintenance I was air cargo at PI/US, it’s a huge money maker.

http://www.phl.org/Documents/Business/A ... AR1218.pdf

http://www.phl.org/Pages/Business/Repor ... ports.aspx

https://www.phl.org/Documents/AboutPHL/PHL_facts.pdf
 
global2
Posts: 489
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:53 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
AA inherited US's TATL gateway at PHL and has been a focus for AA for some time, though with some adjustments. FRA and MUC are being dropped from PHL as these were legacy routes from the US Airways system and network, when US was a Star Alliance member and could feed into LH's hubs at FRA and MUC and LH could feed into US's hub at PHL. AA has essentially, a lot less to virtually no competition from PHL to Europe. BA is a partner airline. The only other airline with daily service to Europe from PHL other than AA and BA/EI is LH with Icelandair operating seasonally to KEF. Air France and Delta have pulled out of the PHL TATL market. The focus on PHL TATL traffic for American, which has a large hub there, has come to some extent at the expense of JFK, which used to be a more prominent TATL gateway to Europe for the airline. The JFK-ZRH route, which has operated since the late 1980's and was only cut once and then restarted, was shifted to PHL in March 2018. EDI (seasonal) has moved back and forth between PHL and JFK and is back to PHL this summer. AA cut MAN from JFK (partly because it flies it from PHL), BHX from JFK was cut entirely, and what is left at JFK is LHR, CDG, MXP, BCN, and FCO (seasonal) with DUB also being seasonal. The consensus on this forum is that AA will eventually shift MXP to PHL, cut BCN once LEVEL enters the market. So, PHL isn't the gateway to Europe but it is AA's primary gateway to Europe and probably its largest.


I used to fly JFK-ZRH once a year in March, almost always on AA. I just looked to see what my options are if I were to book a NYC-ZRH ticket next month. With AA or BA, of course a connection is required somewhere (PHL via LGA, or LHR), but the travel times are way longer than other airlines with connections. Of course there are non-stops on competitors and for not much more money. I find it very sad that AA has retreated so drastically in New York. Why are they so unable to compete?
 
royroy
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:48 am

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:15 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
CALMSP wrote:
yes, pharmaceuticals are in the area, but that doesn't mean that an entire plane is full of them on AA to LHR every day, as they would be moving over a multitude of airlines.

The cargo is always full and companies have to book cargo space in advance.

Before I went into maintenance I was air cargo at PI/US, it’s a huge money maker.

http://www.phl.org/Documents/Business/A ... AR1218.pdf

http://www.phl.org/Pages/Business/Repor ... ports.aspx

https://www.phl.org/Documents/AboutPHL/PHL_facts.pdf


Pharma cargo is different to other freight. It HAS to go direct
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:27 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
I do not know, but I got a roundtrip ticket on AA from DEN to LHR via PHL for 500 dollars over Spring Break period. Maybe AA is marketing itself as a low fare airline now. I know when I fly AA the service and comfort is awful, but for 500 dollars I can't complain. Delta and United were double to LHR. I have noticed very cheap international fares on AA through PHL for travel in the summer as well. I never can find a cheap fare on Delta as often, it seems they can charge a premium for better service.

Using your personal experience to judge the buisness strategies of an entity as large as AA is not helpful. As a counter point, I just bought two transatlantic trips, one on DL for $540, and one on UA for $490. AA was over $1000 for both these trips.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:30 pm

global2 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
AA inherited US's TATL gateway at PHL and has been a focus for AA for some time, though with some adjustments. FRA and MUC are being dropped from PHL as these were legacy routes from the US Airways system and network, when US was a Star Alliance member and could feed into LH's hubs at FRA and MUC and LH could feed into US's hub at PHL. AA has essentially, a lot less to virtually no competition from PHL to Europe. BA is a partner airline. The only other airline with daily service to Europe from PHL other than AA and BA/EI is LH with Icelandair operating seasonally to KEF. Air France and Delta have pulled out of the PHL TATL market. The focus on PHL TATL traffic for American, which has a large hub there, has come to some extent at the expense of JFK, which used to be a more prominent TATL gateway to Europe for the airline. The JFK-ZRH route, which has operated since the late 1980's and was only cut once and then restarted, was shifted to PHL in March 2018. EDI (seasonal) has moved back and forth between PHL and JFK and is back to PHL this summer. AA cut MAN from JFK (partly because it flies it from PHL), BHX from JFK was cut entirely, and what is left at JFK is LHR, CDG, MXP, BCN, and FCO (seasonal) with DUB also being seasonal. The consensus on this forum is that AA will eventually shift MXP to PHL, cut BCN once LEVEL enters the market. So, PHL isn't the gateway to Europe but it is AA's primary gateway to Europe and probably its largest.


I used to fly JFK-ZRH once a year in March, almost always on AA. I just looked to see what my options are if I were to book a NYC-ZRH ticket next month. With AA or BA, of course a connection is required somewhere (PHL via LGA, or LHR), but the travel times are way longer than other airlines with connections. Of course there are non-stops on competitors and for not much more money. I find it very sad that AA has retreated so drastically in New York. Why are they so unable to compete?


The NYC-ZRH market is covered by LX (2 x daily JFK + 1 daily at EWR), DL (1 x daily JFK) and UA (1 x daily EWR). The reason why American has retreated, or put another way, not grown at JFK has been discussed a lot on this forum repeatedly. Part of it stems from the operating costs legacy American Airlines had, as the last major carrier to enter bankruptcy, which it did in 2011 (?). DL filed Chapter 11 in 2005 (alongside future merger partner NW), UA was in bankruptcy from 2002 to 2006. DL has pumped billions into its JFK/LGA split operation, captured more business contracts, and was able to do it with lower operating costs since the endeavor began in earnest immediately post bankruptcy in 2007. American also faces pricing pressure from B6 (JetBlue), which essentially captured and ate American's once dominant position to the Caribbean once it launched flights to the islands from JFK in 2003-2004. It also built up a major hub at JFK which helps to keep pricing pressure. American's costs could not compete then with DL and B6 and as such lost a lot of ground. Today it still can't quite do it. JFK was a "cornerstone" hub of pre-merger AA, which was supposed to be a connecting hub, and with the merger with US, American got a hub in PHL just 150 miles away so connecting traffic is largely flowed through PHL over JFK. The JFK operation is essentially an O&D station and likely not to grow beyond what it is already. Delta launched JFK-ZRH again a few years ago, after operating it only previously immediately after the Pan Am acquisition in 1991. Once Delta was in the market, AA found itself with limited feed at JFK and no feed in ZRH, and threw in the towel and moved the flight to PHL. By the time it moved, AA lost a lot of corporate contracts on the route.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:57 pm

royroy wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
CALMSP wrote:
yes, pharmaceuticals are in the area, but that doesn't mean that an entire plane is full of them on AA to LHR every day, as they would be moving over a multitude of airlines.

The cargo is always full and companies have to book cargo space in advance.

Before I went into maintenance I was air cargo at PI/US, it’s a huge money maker.

http://www.phl.org/Documents/Business/A ... AR1218.pdf

http://www.phl.org/Pages/Business/Repor ... ports.aspx

https://www.phl.org/Documents/AboutPHL/PHL_facts.pdf


Pharma cargo is different to other freight. It HAS to go direct

You do know direct is not non-stop?
 
JetBlueCLT
Posts: 412
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:55 pm

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:05 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
It's doing fine, Premium cargo heavy. They run it 2x with the 333, unlike the CLT route that occasionally becomes a 332.


CLT-LHR is always operated by 2 A333s year round. The A332 has been substituted many times on CLT/PHL-LHR flights but was never scheduled as an A332 according to AA wide body schedule. It was 1 daily A333 from late January to mid February but has since returned to its normal 2 daily 333s schedule.
Pittsburgh Penguins, Steelers, Pirates and Charlotte Hornets Fan
 
acentauri
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:35 am

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:11 am

chonetsao wrote:
Like ScottB said, I personally believe A332/A333 (the AA version) is the wrong aircraft for US/LHR with AA. AA needs a premium heavy B788 for missions like ORD/CLT/PHL to London. A B788 with 28J/21W/140+-Y layout would be more appropriate for overall pax demands for these 3 routes in today's frequency. Yes, in summer time this layout would loose out Y capacity but this can be funnelled through JV partners and by adding additional flights or substitute to A333/B777. A332/333 works wonders for US Airways in low premium/heavy VFR environment. But clearly under AA and LHR, A332/A333 has a problem to fill up the cabin especially in the back.

And Like [b]acentuari[/b] said (above): "AA can't dump the 333s until they have replacements now can they ?? The 787s to replace the 333s and 767s will BEGIN arriving at PHL in January and are part of the 4/2018 new aircraft order."
 
royroy
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:48 am

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:32 am

Boof02671 wrote:
royroy wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
The cargo is always full and companies have to book cargo space in advance.

Before I went into maintenance I was air cargo at PI/US, it’s a huge money maker.

http://www.phl.org/Documents/Business/A ... AR1218.pdf

http://www.phl.org/Pages/Business/Repor ... ports.aspx

https://www.phl.org/Documents/AboutPHL/PHL_facts.pdf


Pharma cargo is different to other freight. It HAS to go direct

You do know direct is not non-stop?


In cargo direct is point A-B not going via anywhere else. I work in the industry I know what it means and pharma is very demanding as it's some of the highest premium product
 
crownvic
Posts: 2437
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:20 am

CALMSP wrote:
yes, pharmaceuticals are in the area, but that doesn't mean that an entire plane is full of them on AA to LHR every day, as they would be moving over a multitude of airlines.


Well if the medical industry in the UK is anything like what it is in the U.S., I'm surprised there are not AN-124s going back and forth between PHL-LHR! :)
 
chonetsao
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sun Feb 24, 2019 8:55 am

acentauri wrote:
And Like [b]acentuari[/b] said (above): "AA can't dump the 333s until they have replacements now can they ?? The 787s to replace the 333s and 767s will BEGIN arriving at PHL in January and are part of the 4/2018 new aircraft order."


Yes you are right. Except the current B788 is in process to remove 8J seats. So it will be 20J/28W/186Y once finished. Premium capacity wise it is matching the 20J/21W/206Y A330-200 instead of the 28J A330-300. In comparison, the B767-300ER is currently 28J/181Y (21 seats are MCE). I agree with you in principle. What I added is that AA needs to have a premium heavy B788 sub fleet to use on CLT/ORD/PHL-LHR routes. And possible to use these birds on Japan routes too where premium demand exists.

We all know B788 is converted to 20J in order to be used on routes where premium demand is lacking (Latin America in the long run, European seasonal leisure destinations etc.), but is it a replacement aircraft for USA-LHR routes? I doubt it, at least from the loading factor in non-summer months, PHL/CLT can do with a premium heavy aircraft with much less Y seats.

Plus, I think the new order of B788 won't arrive until late 2019, not January. If any B788 is moved to PHL, it would be the current delivered B788.
 
MikeMidd2001
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:14 pm

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:54 am

In addition to the O&D traffic in Philadelphia, I'd be curious to know the volume and yield on connections going through PHL to LHR.

I've been flying ALB-PHL-LHR regularly for a decade, and the fares are typically high and rarely seem to be on sale. Some of that reflects high fares overall at airports like that, but I'd suspect that AA does well moving people from all its small and mid-sized cities across the Northeast, mid-Atlantic and a fair amount of the Midwest through PHL to a market like LHR.
 
BA777FO
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:31 am

chonetsao wrote:
We all know B788 is converted to 20J in order to be used on routes where premium demand is lacking (Latin America in the long run, European seasonal leisure destinations etc.), but is it a replacement aircraft for USA-LHR routes? I doubt it, at least from the loading factor in non-summer months, PHL/CLT can do with a premium heavy aircraft with much less Y seats.


That's where the JBA with BA comes into its own. BA has until recently been offering the super hi-J 747 (14F/86J/30W/145Y) to pick up that premium demand. The 747 continues for BA this summer and is complimented by 3x weekly 777 (14F/48J/40W/126Y) - that's a lot of premium seats on a route with very little competition. Add BA's global network at LHR to connect onto it's a very good proposition and performs well.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:54 pm

BA777FO wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
We all know B788 is converted to 20J in order to be used on routes where premium demand is lacking (Latin America in the long run, European seasonal leisure destinations etc.), but is it a replacement aircraft for USA-LHR routes? I doubt it, at least from the loading factor in non-summer months, PHL/CLT can do with a premium heavy aircraft with much less Y seats.


That's where the JBA with BA comes into its own. BA has until recently been offering the super hi-J 747 (14F/86J/30W/145Y) to pick up that premium demand. The 747 continues for BA this summer and is complimented by 3x weekly 777 (14F/48J/40W/126Y) - that's a lot of premium seats on a route with very little competition. Add BA's global network at LHR to connect onto it's a very good proposition and performs well.


Of course that is true. But the problem for AA is that they can fill the 28J cabin without problem. The problem lies empty Y cabin.

So currently A333 had 28J cabin, the revised B788 would be 20J, a loss of 8Jx2=16J on PHL daily, 8Jx4=32J on ORD daily. That is a lot of J seats gone from the system. 48J seats daily with PHL and ORD, we are not counting CLT yet.

Again, AA's problem, as many of people here point out, at least in terms of passenger loads, the biggest problem is the oversupply of Y seat count in PHL and CLT routes. A right sized aircraft needed to maintain the current J seat counts and reduce the Y counts.

Hope that would clear my point a little bit.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1462
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Is AA's PHL-LHR the worst performing LHR route?

Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:13 pm

Remember, the cabins are not all Y. AA has installed premium Y in all widebody fleets except for the 763 and is working to finish off the PE-Y addition in the 788s. Those premium Y cabins have done quite well from what I've heard and they answer passenger demand for an experience that is above standard Y and answer the demand of certain corporate clients that bristle at having to pay $2500 one way on a daylight sector.

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