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schech
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Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:46 am

Recently Emirates announced its “replace” (I don’t know how to call it correctly) for A380. It is an order, including 30 A359 and 40 A339. And I have doubts, that it’s a kind of a “step back” for such an airline. As far as I know, A330neo is for those airlines for which the A350 is too “powerful” (like for TAP). I don’t think that Emirates did such an order themselves, because Airbus doesn’t have so positive situation with orders for the A330neo and they used such a chance. What do you think about the situation?
 
jmmadrid
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:37 am

EK need something smaller than the 777/A350 to fly to new cities for which these planes would be too big, and maybe to replace 777s on certain routes to improve yields and occupancy. The options available today are 787 or A330neo. They chose one of these options.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:50 am

Every airline order is a business deal and has to be looked at in that light. The airline is making a value calculation about all of the various aircraft it could potentially order. Lots and lots of factors go into that calculation, but the short version is that an aircraft that seems like an odd choice from an operational perspective may have other factors improving its total value to the airline.

In the case of Emirates with the A330neo, I think both earlier availability than the A350 and pricing were factors. Early availability is important because the end of A380 production blew a hole in EK's fleet plan. It will still have both early A380s and early 77Ws retiring at that time, and early production 777-9s alone won't be able to make up the difference. (I'd expect to see some of the low-MTOW 77Ws uprated and moved to longer-haul services, replaced on Europe and subcontinent missions by A330neos.) Pricing is, of course, after whatever penalties Airbus will have to absorb for the A380 cancellation, but beyond those penalties Airbus had much more incentive to be aggressive with the A330neo than the A350. The A350 is already selling reasonably well, but the A330neo badly needed a shot in the arm from a blue-chip customer. I wouldn't be surprised if the terms of this particular order have A330neos being delivered at $50M per frame less than the A350s. That will pay for an awful lot of fuel for using older 77Ws on routes too long for the A330neo.
 
Lufthansa
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:29 am

I wouldn't call it a step backwards. There's plenty of cities in Europe that need lift, are fine with 2 class service and are at max 6 hours from DXB. There's Also cities in the Middle East, and more regional Indian cities. Cathay Pacific operates both the A350 and A330 to some of the same cities and nobody really looks like thats a step backwards, but this is an improved version again. I highly doubt you'll see EK use this on 10 hr flights. You may also see them start new flights into cities like GOT or LED.... this is obviously a change in strategy but for a while there they were abusing the 77L by sending it on shorter routes to Europe purely because that was the smallest thing they had. The Bigger cities will still continue on with 777s and A380s but obviously they'll be some A380 flights replaced by 779s etc in the future. They're just going to have to rejig their operations a bit. Lots of airlines around the world have done it. It doesn't mean they still can't offer a stunning product onboard.
 
Arion640
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:01 am

Unexpected, but not a step backwards. It’s likely to be for mainly regional ops.
 
AA737-823
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:10 am

I'm totally onboard with it being a step backwards.
They retired the A330 fleet in 2016...
...Only to order a new A330 fleet in 2019?
NEO or not, I thought it sounded a bit daft from the get go.
 
marcelh
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:56 am

AA737-823 wrote:
I'm totally onboard with it being a step backwards.
They retired the A330 fleet in 2016...
...Only to order a new A330 fleet in 2019?
NEO or not, I thought it sounded a bit daft from the get go.

Plans have been changed at HQ EK and it was probably the best deal for both Airbus and EK, combined with the A359.
And when travelling with my wife, I (we) personally prefer the A330 in economy , just because of the 2-4-2 lay-out. Unfortunately, the default B777 and B787 is IMHO a step backwards
 
sibibom
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:01 am

AA737-823 wrote:
I'm totally onboard with it being a step backwards.
They retired the A330 fleet in 2016...
...Only to order a new A330 fleet in 2019?
NEO or not, I thought it sounded a bit daft from the get go.


They got original B777 which flew till a few years back, then 777W, and now 777X....kinda like the same thing no?
 
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erikgrinsvall
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:06 am

Yes i do, for both regional and long haul routes with shy demand...however it's far from ideal. The flex from EK of keeping their airline a wide-bodied operator, is going to be a questionable decision for the future.

EK went from being a 2 type-aircraft operator until Nov '17, where it went from (technically) 3, and now 5...
Honestly speaking, the order for the B787, and now A350/A330neo..slightly messy.

Despite that their AC choices have all "relatively" similar type ratings, the fleet commonality is too great to be to any greater advantage.
 
Max Q
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:10 am

What has happened to the pending order
for the 787-10 ?


Is that officially history now ?
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MrHMSH
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:28 am

I think the A339 will suit EJK just fine. I don't think it's anywhere near as bad a plane or a deal as some will claim (and there are a lot of people who never consider the possibility that the 787 might not be the better aircraft for an airline's needs). The A330neo is an efficient aircraft with low capital costs and some early availability, suited to medium haul routes (and short haul to an extent). It does alleviate EK's uncertainty over the 78X's performance out of DXB, they can order lighter variants if it will stay exclusively on short routes, but the 251T variant might be an option if they want to go further afield.

While it's unlikely they would have ordered it had they stuck with the A380 order, the result of cancelling that and ordering A359s and A339s instead is hardly the worst outcome. Airbus will make money on these planes (they wouldn't have with the A380) and EK has a more flexible fleet better suited to combatting new challenges in the future, albeit at the cost of having to downsize some A380 routes.

Max Q wrote:
What has happened to the pending order
for the 787-10 ?

Is that officially history now ?


Common but unconfirmed wisdom suggests it will simply be left to expire, and the 'replacement' order in its place will be a 777X top-up.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:32 am

Max Q wrote:
What has happened to the pending order
for the 787-10 ?


Is that officially history now ?


If you look at range, the A330-900 fits the same routes as the 787-10, just a smaller less expensive frame. The A350-900 would fit thinner slightly longer routes. So I would have my doubts about the 787-10 MOU being firmed.

Getting the A350-900 into the fleet is opening up the possibility for future A350-1000 orders. Reducing the possibility of further 777-8/9 orders. But that decision could be quite a few years away, as Emirates has first to absorb 115 777-9 and 35 777-8.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:59 am

Max Q wrote:
What has happened to the pending order
for the 787-10 ?


Is that officially history now ?


Yep.
More than likely, EK will place a top-up 777-9 order in the next year or two, to secure replacement for A380s.
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scbriml
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:02 am

AA737-823 wrote:
I'm totally onboard with it being a step backwards.
They retired the A330 fleet in 2016...
...Only to order a new A330 fleet in 2019?
NEO or not, I thought it sounded a bit daft from the get go.


So EK ordering 77X is a step backwards as well? :confused:

Max Q wrote:
What has happened to the pending order
for the 787-10 ?


Is that officially history now ?


They had an MOU for 40 x 787-10s (with options to take -9s). They now have firm orders for 30 x A339 and 40 A359. I can't see they need another 40 planes smaller than the 777. Most likely, the MOU will be left to expire just like they did when they were going to roll over their A332 fleet to A333s.
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Eyad89
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:42 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
Yep.
More than likely, EK will place a top-up 777-9 order in the next year or two, to secure replacement for A380s.



Even better news for Boeing.
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:54 am

schech wrote:
Recently Emirates announced its “replace” (I don’t know how to call it correctly) for A380. It is an order, including 30 A359 and 40 A339. And I have doubts, that it’s a kind of a “step back” for such an airline. As far as I know, A330neo is for those airlines for which the A350 is too “powerful” (like for TAP). I don’t think that Emirates did such an order themselves, because Airbus doesn’t have so positive situation with orders for the A330neo and they used such a chance. What do you think about the situation?


In pure-technology/performance-related terms the 787-10 is more suited to Emirates (which is a high-volume airline that needed a regional jet). But the overall suitability of any particular aircraft for any particular airline depends on more factors than JUST that particular aircraft's technical performance capabilities.

It seems to me that the A330neo/A350-900 order was entirely about the termination of the A380 program. In the context of the A380 order being cancelled and the project being wound down, the best course of action for EK was to replace the 787-10 order with a mix of A330-900 and A350-900.

If EK got the A380 deal they wanted, the 787-10 would still be EK's jet of choice.
 
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flee
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:56 am

AA737-823 wrote:
I'm totally onboard with it being a step backwards.
They retired the A330 fleet in 2016...
...Only to order a new A330 fleet in 2019?
NEO or not, I thought it sounded a bit daft from the get go.

They have reviewed their business plan and it has changed. That was why the firm A380 orders were cancelled. The order for the A330-900 was placed in light of EK's future route network and business plans.

By your logic, airlines who replace their B737NGs with B737 Maxs or B77Ws with B779s are also daft too!
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:06 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
What has happened to the pending order
for the 787-10 ?


Is that officially history now ?


Yep.
More than likely, EK will place a top-up 777-9 order in the next year or two, to secure replacement for A380s.


Why should they? The bulk of the A380 are rather young, average age 5.2 years and 14 to be still delivered. The 777-300ER have an average age of 6.6 years.

There are 115 777-9 and 35 777-8 on order, that will take a few years to get them delivered. Emirates does not have to think about ordering more big frames for quite a few years.

The newest order of A330neo and A350 seem to be a move away from a big frames only fleet.
 
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:20 am

EK had 29 x A330-200 in the fleet over 17 years with the last ones leaving in 2016 - which indicates that they were pleased with them. The A330-900 offers everything the A332 had plus increased pax/cargo volume and lower fuel burn - perfect.
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oldannyboy
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:22 am

1) Price. The A330neos EK will be getting will be highly discounted, as Airbus desperately (or, almost) needed one extra BIG solid customer and more orders.
2) They also needed to 'work' around the cancellation of the A380 order, and EK already know the A330, and were always very happy with the type. Technically it's a very safe bet.
2) EK needed something less gigantic than the 777-300ER and the A380 to beef up more fragmented frequencies and open up smaller markets.

Is it a bit of a downgrade? Well, it depends.... Compared to more comfortable types such as the A350, the A380 and the 787, yes, it's a somewhat 'very minimal' step back. But it's still a very big, very comfortable, very capable mean beast of a jet. And frankly it's certainly more comfortable than the 777, with the nice 8-across seating cabin in Y and significantly more favorable cabin noise levels.
I loved flying on EK 332s and won't certainly mind flying the neos.
 
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:29 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
schech wrote:
Recently Emirates announced its “replace” (I don’t know how to call it correctly) for A380. It is an order, including 30 A359 and 40 A339. And I have doubts, that it’s a kind of a “step back” for such an airline. As far as I know, A330neo is for those airlines for which the A350 is too “powerful” (like for TAP). I don’t think that Emirates did such an order themselves, because Airbus doesn’t have so positive situation with orders for the A330neo and they used such a chance. What do you think about the situation?


In pure-technology/performance-related terms the 787-10 is more suited to Emirates (.


Aside of having to fly out of DXB, which is hot, and the 787-10 not particularly suited for.

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EricAY05
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:38 am

Of course it's the right choice. It's simply ridiculous to fly an A380 or a 77W to all your destinations.
 
Milka
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:02 pm

Yes it is useful because it will allow Emirates to serve closer and smaller markets for which the A380/B777 is too large and the A350/B788 too long range.
 
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:09 pm

Finally EK did made a very sensible decision, A330neo is a great aircraft and perfect aircraft for some routes in which the B777 and A380 is too big. I assume before they thought they could fill up those big birds in all of their routes, yeah in my and their imaginary world this can happen but in reality they do need smaller aircrafts like the A330, A350 and B787.
 
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:23 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

Aside of having to fly out of DXB, which is hot, and the 787-10 not particularly suited for.


That didn't deter Etihad from ordering the type. It seems that the 787-10 is perfectly capable of doing almost all of Asia/Europe/Africa even on a hot Dubai day.

And Etihad gave it a dense configuration. Emirates would have less-dense configurations as they have more pitch in Economy and on some jets would have First.
 
schech
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:37 pm

I don’t think that any replacement is a “step backwards”. But in this situation, when Emirates has B777X and A380 on order, i thought that the company is at a new level.
 
TheEuphorian
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:11 pm

I can see EK launching:
-GOT
-LED
-KBV
-UTP
-SUB
-CEB
-PUS
and maybe more
 
tealnz
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:36 pm

Apart from the linkage with A380 cancellation it's been reported that EK were fretting about 78J performance in the heat. The 330neo, with smaller payload, derated 787 engines and big wing won't have the same issues.

It's not as if the A330 was a random selection: EK already had long experience with the CEO version, so they pretty much know what they're getting. Good from a pax experience point of view too.
 
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:45 pm

First: the EK 78J MOU isn't dead until EK says it is. Same goes for any changes to their 77X orders.

Second: I don't think it's impossible that Boeing will sweeten the deal and offer to pay EK's A339 cancellation penalities. It's fun being flush with cash.
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:02 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
That didn't deter Etihad from ordering the type.


Aside from EY and EK being different airlines with different requirements, the fact that a basket-case of an airline ordered the 787-10 is not significantly indicative of much, IMHO.
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mjoelnir
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:07 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Aside of having to fly out of DXB, which is hot, and the 787-10 not particularly suited for.


That didn't deter Etihad from ordering the type. It seems that the 787-10 is perfectly capable of doing almost all of Asia/Europe/Africa even on a hot Dubai day.

And Etihad gave it a dense configuration. Emirates would have less-dense configurations as they have more pitch in Economy and on some jets would have First.


It can well be, that Emirates does a lot more belly cargo than Etihad. What does suit one airline does not have to suit another airline. Emirates has been talking about the 787-10 having not enough thrust and there must be a reason why the Emirates 787-10 MOU is not firmed.
 
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:10 pm

TheEuphorian wrote:
I can see EK launching:
-GOT
-LED
-KBV
-UTP
-SUB
-CEB
-PUS
and maybe more

Some of the destination you list are already served in EK network. They are also launching flights to OPO in EU and I guess in SE Asia, I also target KNO, VTE and BKI as another destination.
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:13 pm

jmmadrid wrote:
EK need something smaller than the 777/A350 to fly to new cities for which these planes would be too big, and maybe to replace 777s on certain routes to improve yields and occupancy. The options available today are 787 or A330neo. They chose one of these options.

So what's the example of type that is needed to be smaller than the A350/B777?
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:15 pm

It is easy to forget how many short haul flights Emirates has. A quick snapshot of FlightAware shows the following 777-300ER arrivals at DXB this afternoon

Larnaca
Baghdad
Basra
Karachi
Amman
Moscow
Cairo
Beirut
Dacca
Sialkot
Delhi
Chennai
Male
Seychelles
Bahrain
Muscat
Cochin
Hyderabad
Dammam

This snapshot of afternoon arrivals outside of the long haul banks shows that there are a whole lot of routes where long haul range and capacity is not needed. These are the routes where A330neos and 787-10s make sense.
 
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:42 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Every airline order is a business deal and has to be looked at in that light. The airline is making a value calculation about all of the various aircraft it could potentially order. Lots and lots of factors go into that calculation, but the short version is that an aircraft that seems like an odd choice from an operational perspective may have other factors improving its total value to the airline.

In the case of Emirates with the A330neo, I think both earlier availability than the A350 and pricing were factors. Early availability is important because the end of A380 production blew a hole in EK's fleet plan. It will still have both early A380s and early 77Ws retiring at that time, and early production 777-9s alone won't be able to make up the difference. (I'd expect to see some of the low-MTOW 77Ws uprated and moved to longer-haul services, replaced on Europe and subcontinent missions by A330neos.) Pricing is, of course, after whatever penalties Airbus will have to absorb for the A380 cancellation, but beyond those penalties Airbus had much more incentive to be aggressive with the A330neo than the A350. The A350 is already selling reasonably well, but the A330neo badly needed a shot in the arm from a blue-chip customer. I wouldn't be surprised if the terms of this particular order have A330neos being delivered at $50M per frame less than the A350s. That will pay for an awful lot of fuel for using older 77Ws on routes too long for the A330neo.

I agree with much of what you wrote, but I'll point out that it was EK that blew that hole in their own plan by
(a) not coming to agreement with RR on the 20+18 order, then
(b) seeking to terminate most of the remaining A380s they had on order.

I point that out because from what we know EK was not the victim of an early termination, they were the ones seeking the early termination.

This would have put them in a weaker negotiating position than what they usually have.

oldannyboy wrote:
1) Price. The A330neos EK will be getting will be highly discounted, as Airbus desperately (or, almost) needed one extra BIG solid customer and more orders.
2) They also needed to 'work' around the cancellation of the A380 order, and EK already know the A330, and were always very happy with the type. Technically it's a very safe bet.
2) EK needed something less gigantic than the 777-300ER and the A380 to beef up more fragmented frequencies and open up smaller markets.

Is it a bit of a downgrade? Well, it depends.... Compared to more comfortable types such as the A350, the A380 and the 787, yes, it's a somewhat 'very minimal' step back. But it's still a very big, very comfortable, very capable mean beast of a jet. And frankly it's certainly more comfortable than the 777, with the nice 8-across seating cabin in Y and significantly more favorable cabin noise levels.
I loved flying on EK 332s and won't certainly mind flying the neos.

I agree with all of the above. The need to work around their desire to walk away from A380 was a factor. Airbus's desire to firm up the A330 production schedule in the face of requests by lessors for deferments was a factor. I think EK would have been happier with the economics of the longer, wider, all CFRP 787 but (1) and (2) came in to play with much urgency. As I wrote on another thread, it would not surprise me to see A330neo have a relatively short service life with EK. I could see them holding on to them for the short term but eventually getting more capable aircraft and putting the A330s onto the secondary market.

TheEuphorian wrote:
I can see EK launching:
-GOT
-LED
-KBV
-UTP
-SUB
-CEB
-PUS
and maybe more

Seems they would need to find a lot of pilots pretty quickly to do this, no?
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:50 pm

Reading between the lines brings me to the conclusion that EK is realizing that their period of almost unlimited growth is pretty well over, and that they can no longer send the biggest airliner they can buy to wherever they can get landing rights and expect to fill it whenever they choose to fly it. I had initially thought that the cancellation of the A380s was at Airbus’s initiative, but from the sound of things now it looks more like it was EK’s. If that was the case, it seems to me that their problem with the A380s was not only that they drank too much fuel but that they just had too many of them for the number of passengers that they could attract. And while they may have taken the A339s mostly because they needed to take something from Airbus to compensate for the canceled A380s but also because they realized they actually do need a smaller plane in their fleet. And if I am reading the tea leaves correctly, there may not be a 779 top-up order anytime soon. And there is zero chance of the 7810 mou being finalized.
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:32 pm

SEPilot wrote:
And if I am reading the tea leaves correctly, there may not be a 779 top-up order anytime soon. And there is zero chance of the 7810 mou being finalized.


If they replace A380s and 77Ws on anything close to their usual schedule, doing nothing beyond what they have already ordered will represent quite a dramatic shrink in capacity. I'd expect another order for 30 or so larger aircraft at some point. Timing may not be urgent because I expect that Boeing will be able to speed up deliveries of the existing 779 order if EY cancels and QR defers, so maybe EK will wait for the A350-1000 Ultrafan rather than topping up on 779s, but something further is coming.
 
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:05 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
Is it a bit of a downgrade? Well, it depends.... Compared to more comfortable types such as the A350, the A380 and the 787, yes, it's a somewhat 'very minimal' step back.

How is a 3-3-3 787 more comfortable than a 2-4-2 A339? The seat width is more generous in the A339.
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:23 pm

EK may or may not need more 777Xs, but I think they have ample time to order if they do need it. They already have 150 on order, and I think to go beyond that at this time would be over-committing to too many, too far into the future without being certain how the market will play out. And besides, I don't think Boeing will be squeezed for slots given the sales pace so far.
 
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:31 pm

Revelation wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
Every airline order is a business deal and has to be looked at in that light. The airline is making a value calculation about all of the various aircraft it could potentially order. Lots and lots of factors go into that calculation, but the short version is that an aircraft that seems like an odd choice from an operational perspective may have other factors improving its total value to the airline.

In the case of Emirates with the A330neo, I think both earlier availability than the A350 and pricing were factors. Early availability is important because the end of A380 production blew a hole in EK's fleet plan. It will still have both early A380s and early 77Ws retiring at that time, and early production 777-9s alone won't be able to make up the difference. (I'd expect to see some of the low-MTOW 77Ws uprated and moved to longer-haul services, replaced on Europe and subcontinent missions by A330neos.) Pricing is, of course, after whatever penalties Airbus will have to absorb for the A380 cancellation, but beyond those penalties Airbus had much more incentive to be aggressive with the A330neo than the A350. The A350 is already selling reasonably well, but the A330neo badly needed a shot in the arm from a blue-chip customer. I wouldn't be surprised if the terms of this particular order have A330neos being delivered at $50M per frame less than the A350s. That will pay for an awful lot of fuel for using older 77Ws on routes too long for the A330neo.

I agree with much of what you wrote, but I'll point out that it was EK that blew that hole in their own plan by
(a) not coming to agreement with RR on the 20+18 order, then
(b) seeking to terminate most of the remaining A380s they had on order.

I point that out because from what we know EK was not the victim of an early termination, they were the ones seeking the early termination.

This would have put them in a weaker negotiating position than what they usually have.

oldannyboy wrote:
1) Price. The A330neos EK will be getting will be highly discounted, as Airbus desperately (or, almost) needed one extra BIG solid customer and more orders.
2) They also needed to 'work' around the cancellation of the A380 order, and EK already know the A330, and were always very happy with the type. Technically it's a very safe bet.
2) EK needed something less gigantic than the 777-300ER and the A380 to beef up more fragmented frequencies and open up smaller markets.

Is it a bit of a downgrade? Well, it depends.... Compared to more comfortable types such as the A350, the A380 and the 787, yes, it's a somewhat 'very minimal' step back. But it's still a very big, very comfortable, very capable mean beast of a jet. And frankly it's certainly more comfortable than the 777, with the nice 8-across seating cabin in Y and significantly more favorable cabin noise levels.
I loved flying on EK 332s and won't certainly mind flying the neos.

I agree with all of the above. The need to work around their desire to walk away from A380 was a factor. Airbus's desire to firm up the A330 production schedule in the face of requests by lessors for deferments was a factor. I think EK would have been happier with the economics of the longer, wider, all CFRP 787 but (1) and (2) came in to play with much urgency. As I wrote on another thread, it would not surprise me to see A330neo have a relatively short service life with EK. I could see them holding on to them for the short term but eventually getting more capable aircraft and putting the A330s onto the secondary market.

TheEuphorian wrote:
I can see EK launching:
-GOT
-LED
-KBV
-UTP
-SUB
-CEB
-PUS
and maybe more

Seems they would need to find a lot of pilots pretty quickly to do this, no?

Revelation, I believe you have hit the primary issues. This is a business decision where the economics of newer types over-came high load per flight. We saw this before in A332 vs. 77W vs. 744. Profit is quantity times profit for each unit and going forward, the A388 costs, per passenger in a given class, are too high. QF notes two 789 make more profit than one A388.

I won't rehash transferring deposits, engine penalties, or anything more. This was a business case with an unusual set of requirements.

I believe thec787-10 is well suited for EK to Europe and most of Asia. That doesn't stop it being cheap to let a MOU lapse vs. cancellation penalties.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:01 pm

sibibom wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
I'm totally onboard with it being a step backwards.
They retired the A330 fleet in 2016...
...Only to order a new A330 fleet in 2019?
NEO or not, I thought it sounded a bit daft from the get go.


They got original B777 which flew till a few years back, then 777W, and now 777X....kinda like the same thing no?


No!

The 777X will use the thinner insulation technology used by the 787. This will enable Boeing to thin the interior walls of the 777X enough to allow airlines to fit 10 abreast 18 inch wide seating compared to the standard 17 inch 10 abreast seating on a 77W.
 
smartplane
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:07 pm

The 339 purchase is consistent with the closer working relationship mandated between FZ and EK last year - FZ = NB, EK = WB.

EK faced FZ adding WB's to it's fleet, or had to do so itself. They chose the latter, just as they lobbied for the 737MAX acquisition to eliminate the risk more capable A321's joined the FZ fleet.
 
marcogr12
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:01 pm

tealnz wrote:
Apart from the linkage with A380 cancellation it's been reported that EK were fretting about 78J performance in the heat. The 330neo, with smaller payload, derated 787 engines and big wing won't have the same issues.

It's not as if the A330 was a random selection: EK already had long experience with the CEO version, so they pretty much know what they're getting. Good from a pax experience point of view too.


My sentiments exactly..Why is the A330neo all of sudden such an issue considering they had been operating the A332 for decades? The 2-4-2 config. is very well received by passengers,better than 3-4-3 on the 777, and the A339s can do long and short thinner routes where the 777s and A350s are just too big..
Question: Could the A339neo do the ATH-EWR route in winter-time,when demand drops and it's hard to fill a 400-seater (777),without any payload penalties?
Flying is breathing..no planes no life..
 
musman9853
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:40 pm

EddieDude wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
Is it a bit of a downgrade? Well, it depends.... Compared to more comfortable types such as the A350, the A380 and the 787, yes, it's a somewhat 'very minimal' step back.

How is a 3-3-3 787 more comfortable than a 2-4-2 A339? The seat width is more generous in the A339.



larger windows, lower altitude, higher humidity, etc. there's more to comfort than seat pitch.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:00 pm

EK is still to receive 14 more A380s, that is more than any other airline except SIA has in their fleet. They have over 110 currently with maybe a handfull coming off lease in the next 3 to 4 years. In a decade they could still be flying more than 70 of them, they are not short on aircraft.
 
tealnz
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 2:07 am

musman9853 wrote:
larger windows, lower altitude, higher humidity, etc. there's more to comfort than seat pitch.

Having done a 14hr sector in 3-3-3 Y in a 788 in August I can tell you I have never had a more uncomfortable flight. Windows, altitude, humidity count for [email protected]#$ if you're jammed into a narrow seat with short pitch. Welcome to Dreamliner world.
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:15 am

Well, some folks here just can't stand EK getting non-Boeing aircraft. EK will be pretty daft to keep only single OEM, they reviewed their business strategy and needs hence may no longer need 787. Live and let live. That being said I will approach this new order with caution. EK has cancelled Airbus order few times over the decades, i.e. 30 extra A330ceo announced during first A380 delivery, A346 and initial A350 order, hence I will hold my breath till first A350/A330neo are delivered. Is the order firmed?
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
musman9853
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:58 am

tealnz wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
larger windows, lower altitude, higher humidity, etc. there's more to comfort than seat pitch.

Having done a 14hr sector in 3-3-3 Y in a 788 in August I can tell you I have never had a more uncomfortable flight. Windows, altitude, humidity count for [email protected]#$ if you're jammed into a narrow seat with short pitch. Welcome to Dreamliner world.


Well it just comes down to opinion. Imo, the 787 is far more comfortable than a 777 or an a330, even in coach of an LCC
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
tealnz
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 4:07 am

musman9853 wrote:
tealnz wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
larger windows, lower altitude, higher humidity, etc. there's more to comfort than seat pitch.

Having done a 14hr sector in 3-3-3 Y in a 788 in August I can tell you I have never had a more uncomfortable flight. Windows, altitude, humidity count for [email protected]#$ if you're jammed into a narrow seat with short pitch. Welcome to Dreamliner world.

Well it just comes down to opinion. Imo, the 787 is far more comfortable than a 777 or an a330, even in coach of an LCC

This was ANA! Imagine what an LCC would have been like.
2-4-2 in an A330 would be luxury after the 788.
 
Strato2
Posts: 555
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Re: Does A330neo really suit Emirates?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:03 am

The A330neo is a good choice for EK pax. It's nearly as comfortable as the A380 although noisier and kills every cramped Boeing product out there on comfort including 787, 777, 777X.

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