gkpetery
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Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:38 am

I was watching the recent video of the Delta Airlines inaugural flight on the A220 and the captain mentioned to the passengers the plane Could potentially fly from Transcontinental from East Coast to the West Coast and then to Hawaii.

I’m wondering if you think we will ever see commercial service of the A220 to Hawaii? LAX to Hilo is on a United 737 but the flight isn’t full year round. And also LAX to Lihue could be an A220?

Think it could happen if it got ETOPs?
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:43 am

It’s fully capable of making the flight but the aircraft is just too small. The smallest aircraft you will see to Hawaii as of now will be an A320.
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:51 am

I would like to see someone use it for flights from PAE, but alas that seems unlikely.
 
joeycapps
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:38 am

Can it? Yes. Will it? Probably not. There is no shortage of aircraft to fly mainland to HI.
 
Max Q
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:29 am

Pretty sure it’s just been approved for ETOPS


Does anyone use the 737-700 to the Hawaiian islands ?

If so I’d say the A220-300 would be a viable replacement
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airlineaddict
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:05 pm

If it happens, SNA - HNL/OGG/LIH, could be on the docket
 
jagraham
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:15 pm

Max Q wrote:
Pretty sure it’s just been approved for ETOPS


Does anyone use the 737-700 to the Hawaiian islands ?

If so I’d say the A220-300 would be a viable replacement


No 737-700s these days except for BBJs. All 737 operators including Southwest think the slight fuel difference is worth the 30 or so extra pax.

Not that the 737-700 couldn't fly the route - it just isn't cheaper enough to justify the loss in seats.

Same with Airbus. All A320s coming to Hawaii are A321s,
 
luv2cattlecall
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:40 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
It’s fully capable of making the flight but the aircraft is just too small. The smallest aircraft you will see to Hawaii as of now will be an A320.


If the casm matches the 737-800, in what way is it "too small" for some thinner routes?
 
Boof02671
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:44 pm

It can be ETOPS qualified, but did DL equip the plane for ETOPS?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:48 pm

The -700 has done it for Aloha and Continental. I did OGG-SNA in a CO 73G in 2010. Im actually a little surprised AS hasnt put the 73G on SNA-Hawaii, it fits their HI M.O.

Back on topic, Hawaii is hyper-competitive, and the consumer in this market is very price-sensitive, and fares are at rock bottom. Airlines need to fill larger planes with cheap fares just to cover costs. I'm willing to bet that the bulk of mainland-Hawaii service is one of the biggest loss leaders for the US airlines. The A220 may be cutting-edge and have lower CASM than 737s and A320s, but its too small for the market.
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Aptivaboy
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:03 pm

I could see it happening at some point, but it would take the right, niche market. You'd need a smaller departure airport far enough from major hubs to make connecting there unrealistic or uneconomical for the average passenger, and yet be large enough to support at least seasonal service on its own. I dunno, maybe a Reno or Albuquerque or someplace like that? Just talking out loud. In the end, the plane is likely just a tad too small to move a meaningfully profitable number of passengers compared to a 737 or A321 to make it worthwhile.
 
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:19 pm

luv2cattlecall wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
It’s fully capable of making the flight but the aircraft is just too small. The smallest aircraft you will see to Hawaii as of now will be an A320.


If the casm matches the 737-800, in what way is it "too small" for some thinner routes?

I could see quite a few thin routes that need shortfield performance on either side. Think Santa Barbara. Or routes that wouldn't fill an A321 or 738. Such as GEG, RNO, and FLG. Possibly more in Alaska?

ETOPS takes work, but isn't a game stopper. The A220 was designed for very efficient tcon and exceeded promise. Draw a 2525nm circle for the A220-100. Add about 90nm for A220-300:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=2525nm%40hnl

It will happen. Now pick other island airports. Premium passengers vote for direct flights.

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PlymSpotter
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:27 pm

It's too early to say, beyond reasonable doubt, that we won't.

For a start, the A220-100/300 is a potential replacement for Hawaiin's B717s (currently 14-20 years old), which would have the range to reach the US mainland. If the -300's seat/trip costs prove to be competitive with the A320/B737, this could open up new possibilities for them. Additionally it is likely that Airbus will eventually launch a larger 'A220-500' variant, which would reduce seat costs even further.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:50 pm

The 738 I recall has a bigger wing compared to the 737, it can fly further providing that better margin going to Hawaii. No choices for a diversion closer than the O or D going there. The A220 wouldn't have an advantage for Hawaii flights, other markets it looks like an excellent plane.
 
Jamie514
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:34 pm

Its possible it will find a niche flying from secondary mainland points to the outer islands, eg ITO/LIH/KOA. Its highly unlikely it'd be used on LAX-HNL or SAN-OGG, but there are certainly other route opportunities for operators like HA if they pick it up as part of their interisland replacement strategy.
 
texl1649
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:53 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
It's too early to say, beyond reasonable doubt, that we won't.

For a start, the A220-100/300 is a potential replacement for Hawaiin's B717s (currently 14-20 years old), which would have the range to reach the US mainland. If the -300's seat/trip costs prove to be competitive with the A320/B737, this could open up new possibilities for them. Additionally it is likely that Airbus will eventually launch a larger 'A220-500' variant, which would reduce seat costs even further.


The GTF in the A220 will never work as an island hopper. It takes much too long to start/cool/start up. I imagine, once Rolls/CFM go the route of geared smaller turbofans in the next decade in a half, other options will appear. Also, the A220-500, if ever launched, will almost certainly be a simple (as possible) stretch of the frame, and wouldn't make it to HI fully loaded.

The HI 717's will probably go until at least 2035, unless engine maintenance/support really falls apart. For some reason this has always been a point of high level/drama debate on a.net, but no replacement is likely to be ordered/considered until at the very earliest around 2028-2030.
 
YYZatcboy
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:54 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
The 738 I recall has a bigger wing compared to the 737, it can fly further providing that better margin going to Hawaii. No choices for a diversion closer than the O or D going there. The A220 wouldn't have an advantage for Hawaii flights, other markets it looks like an excellent plane.


This is incorrect. It has the same wing as the -7 and -6. The 700 has more range. WestJet used to fly the 700s to Hawaii out of YYJ mostly, but now it's mostly 800s and Maxes and wide bodies. The 700 would have a better margin (range wise) than an 800. The only thing the 800 wing has is the optional short field kit, which is a huge help out of LIH and OGG. Still a 700 has better performance. But if you can fill an 800 then the difference is money in the bank.
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cylw
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:54 pm

WS flew a 737-700 from Victoria YYJ to HNL for many years.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:54 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
It's too early to say, beyond reasonable doubt, that we won't.

For a start, the A220-100/300 is a potential replacement for Hawaiin's B717s (currently 14-20 years old), which would have the range to reach the US mainland. If the -300's seat/trip costs prove to be competitive with the A320/B737, this could open up new possibilities for them. Additionally it is likely that Airbus will eventually launch a larger 'A220-500' variant, which would reduce seat costs even further.

Personally, I think a stretched MRJ would be best for HA. Inherently, the PW1200G will have faster turn times than a PW1500G. However, if HA buys the A220, you will see it flying Hawaii to the mainland.

Someone will fly the A220 to Hawaii. The question is if it is JetBlue, Moxy, Delta, or another airline.

The trip costs are low enough.

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luv2cattlecall
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:56 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
The -700 has done it for Aloha and Continental. I did OGG-SNA in a CO 73G in 2010. Im actually a little surprised AS hasnt put the 73G on SNA-Hawaii, it fits their HI M.O.

Back on topic, Hawaii is hyper-competitive, and the consumer in this market is very price-sensitive, and fares are at rock bottom. Airlines need to fill larger planes with cheap fares just to cover costs. I'm willing to bet that the bulk of mainland-Hawaii service is one of the biggest loss leaders for the US airlines. The A220 may be cutting-edge and have lower CASM than 737s and A320s, but its too small for the market.


Think of it as a mini version of the 787 vs A380:

If the smaller aircraft is cheaper to operate per passenger, and you have less overall passengers, then you can pull higher yields and get better load factors. The reason airlines pick the 738 over the 73G is because the -800 is cheaper per passenger.

And just like the 787 can bypass connections, the A220 can likely open up some secondary-secondary or secondary-primary combinations that aren't viable with a 200 seater.

Between the competitive advantages of having a direct flight, a more comfortable aircraft, and more optimised schedules, I could see how someone like Delta could really erode market share compared to everyone else who only has 1 or 2 stop options.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:12 pm

texl1649 wrote:
PlymSpotter wrote:
It's too early to say, beyond reasonable doubt, that we won't.

For a start, the A220-100/300 is a potential replacement for Hawaiin's B717s (currently 14-20 years old), which would have the range to reach the US mainland. If the -300's seat/trip costs prove to be competitive with the A320/B737, this could open up new possibilities for them. Additionally it is likely that Airbus will eventually launch a larger 'A220-500' variant, which would reduce seat costs even further.


The GTF in the A220 will never work as an island hopper. It takes much too long to start/cool/start up.

The HI 717's will probably go until at least 2035, unless engine maintenance/support really falls apart. For some reason this has always been a point of high level/drama debate on a.net, but no replacement is likely to be ordered/considered until at the very earliest around 2028-2030.


You are quite correct, and I started a thread a while back about "The Future Of Hawai'ian Inter-Island Travel", discussing why Aloha kept 737-200's for a very long time, and why the 717's for Hawaiian are so important. A few respondents absolutely refused to believe that most jet engines cannot be used on short hops because of the cool-down period required between hops, but what can you do?

A new engine will be necessary for inter-Hawaiian-island flying, as boats are not going to be the long term solution. Time will tell.
 
airlineworker
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:19 pm

YYZatcboy wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
The 738 I recall has a bigger wing compared to the 737, it can fly further providing that better margin going to Hawaii. No choices for a diversion closer than the O or D going there. The A220 wouldn't have an advantage for Hawaii flights, other markets it looks like an excellent plane.


This is incorrect. It has the same wing as the -7 and -6. The 700 has more range. WestJet used to fly the 700s to Hawaii out of YYJ mostly, but now it's mostly 800s and Maxes and wide bodies. The 700 would have a better margin (range wise) than an 800. The only thing the 800 wing has is the optional short field kit, which is a huge help out of LIH and OGG. Still a 700 has better performance. But if you can fill an 800 then the difference is money in the bank.


I believe DL fly's or has flown the 737-700 to EYW, but not the 737-800.
 
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:22 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
The -700 has done it for Aloha and Continental. I did OGG-SNA in a CO 73G in 2010. Im actually a little surprised AS hasnt put the 73G on SNA-Hawaii, it fits their HI M.O.

Back on topic, Hawaii is hyper-competitive, and the consumer in this market is very price-sensitive, and fares are at rock bottom. Airlines need to fill larger planes with cheap fares just to cover costs. I'm willing to bet that the bulk of mainland-Hawaii service is one of the biggest loss leaders for the US airlines. The A220 may be cutting-edge and have lower CASM than 737s and A320s, but its too small for the market.


You hit the nail on the head, yields are low along with Hawaii being the most sought after frequent flyer award redemptions.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:24 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
The -700 has done it for Aloha and Continental. I did OGG-SNA in a CO 73G in 2010. Im actually a little surprised AS hasnt put the 73G on SNA-Hawaii, it fits their HI M.O.

AS isn't gonna want to use their SNA slots for flights to Hawaii, when they would very likely make more money elsewhere...
 
LAXBUR
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:25 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
The -700 has done it for Aloha and Continental. I did OGG-SNA in a CO 73G in 2010. Im actually a little surprised AS hasnt put the 73G on SNA-Hawaii, it fits their HI M.O.

Back on topic, Hawaii is hyper-competitive, and the consumer in this market is very price-sensitive, and fares are at rock bottom. Airlines need to fill larger planes with cheap fares just to cover costs. I'm willing to bet that the bulk of mainland-Hawaii service is one of the biggest loss leaders for the US airlines. The A220 may be cutting-edge and have lower CASM than 737s and A320s, but its too small for the market.


I don’t believe Alaska’s 73Gs are ETOPS. They only fly 738s and 739ERs to Hawaii.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:27 pm

luv2cattlecall wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
It’s fully capable of making the flight but the aircraft is just too small. The smallest aircraft you will see to Hawaii as of now will be an A320.


If the casm matches the 737-800, in what way is it "too small" for some thinner routes?


One way is that there are fixed costs at both ends that may not be part of CASM. (Something like gate rents, perhaps.)

Meeting 738 costs shouldn't be the benchmark because there certainly are more efficient aircraft (321s, 739s, 753s) going to Hawaii.
 
YYZatcboy
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:54 pm

airlineworker wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
The 738 I recall has a bigger wing compared to the 737, it can fly further providing that better margin going to Hawaii. No choices for a diversion closer than the O or D going there. The A220 wouldn't have an advantage for Hawaii flights, other markets it looks like an excellent plane.


This is incorrect. It has the same wing as the -7 and -6. The 700 has more range. WestJet used to fly the 700s to Hawaii out of YYJ mostly, but now it's mostly 800s and Maxes and wide bodies. The 700 would have a better margin (range wise) than an 800. The only thing the 800 wing has is the optional short field kit, which is a huge help out of LIH and OGG. Still a 700 has better performance. But if you can fill an 800 then the difference is money in the bank.


I believe DL fly's or has flown the 737-700 to EYW, but not the 737-800.


That doesn't surprise me. The 737 being lighter than the 738 gives it better runway performance. Also fewer seats to block. A 736 would probably perform even better.
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WayexTDI
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:12 am

YYZatcboy wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:

This is incorrect. It has the same wing as the -7 and -6. The 700 has more range. WestJet used to fly the 700s to Hawaii out of YYJ mostly, but now it's mostly 800s and Maxes and wide bodies. The 700 would have a better margin (range wise) than an 800. The only thing the 800 wing has is the optional short field kit, which is a huge help out of LIH and OGG. Still a 700 has better performance. But if you can fill an 800 then the difference is money in the bank.


I believe DL fly's or has flown the 737-700 to EYW, but not the 737-800.


That doesn't surprise me. The 737 being lighter than the 738 gives it better runway performance. Also fewer seats to block. A 736 would probably perform even better.

Can you avoid mixing the names?
- 737 is the Boeing 737 Family (-100 through -900ER, Max7 through Max10);
- 738 is the Bowing 737-800;
- if you mean the Boeing 737-700, then it's the 73G.
 
ilovelamp
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:27 am

airlineworker wrote:
YYZatcboy wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
The 738 I recall has a bigger wing compared to the 737, it can fly further providing that better margin going to Hawaii. No choices for a diversion closer than the O or D going there. The A220 wouldn't have an advantage for Hawaii flights, other markets it looks like an excellent plane.


This is incorrect. It has the same wing as the -7 and -6. The 700 has more range. WestJet used to fly the 700s to Hawaii out of YYJ mostly, but now it's mostly 800s and Maxes and wide bodies. The 700 would have a better margin (range wise) than an 800. The only thing the 800 wing has is the optional short field kit, which is a huge help out of LIH and OGG. Still a 700 has better performance. But if you can fill an 800 then the difference is money in the bank.


I believe DL fly's or has flown the 737-700 to EYW, but not the 737-800.


The 737-700, along with the A319, are the only Delta mainline jets authorized for EYW. It’s been that way for many years.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:29 am

And then onto Tokyo. We can use this small plane for trans-Pacific flights.
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:45 am

lightsaber wrote:
luv2cattlecall wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
It’s fully capable of making the flight but the aircraft is just too small. The smallest aircraft you will see to Hawaii as of now will be an A320.


If the casm matches the 737-800, in what way is it "too small" for some thinner routes?

I could see quite a few thin routes that need shortfield performance on either side. Think Santa Barbara. Or routes that wouldn't fill an A321 or 738. Such as GEG, RNO, and FLG. Possibly more in Alaska?

ETOPS takes work, but isn't a game stopper. The A220 was designed for very efficient tcon and exceeded promise. Draw a 2525nm circle for the A220-100. Add about 90nm for A220-300:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?R=2525nm%40hnl

It will happen. Now pick other island airports. Premium passengers vote for direct flights.

Lightsaber


Perhaps GEG or RNO. Maybe SBA. Allegiant failed to HNL from...was it Santa Maria? I can't remember for certain but I think they might have had a twice weekly flight from Santa Maria to HNL. I wouldn't think FLG would be in the running. As much as I love the town, according to wiki it currently only has one seasonal route, LAX, and one year round route, PHX. Soon it will be adding LAX and DFW. Horizon used to fly there from LAX. I can't remember if it stopped in Prescott on the way, or if it was non-stop LAX to FLG. Took that flight once and got the pleasure of flying over Sedona.

If the plane did make it to Hawaii, who would fly it? Moxy? I could see Jet Blue maybe giving it a try. It would be interesting to know what the economics are and how this plane would compete against a 737.
 
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452QX
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:44 am

TWA772LR wrote:
The -700 has done it for Aloha and Continental. I did OGG-SNA in a CO 73G in 2010. Im actually a little surprised AS hasnt put the 73G on SNA-Hawaii, it fits their HI M.O.


None of the AS 700s are ETOPS certified, and being a niche fleet of only a handful A/Cs it would end up being hard to justify when there’s more than enough certified 800s and 900ERs to cover all hawaii flying.

Arguably the 700s remain at their best serving up north in the state of Alaska along with the occasional lower 48 flights

On a side note, they are also the oldest active frames in the AAG
 
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452QX
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:50 am

Back on the subject of the 220, I personally think it might find a use in the parts of the year with lower Hawaii loads, but during the peak it’s hard to justify flying something that small when you could easily fill a 739 or larger on the same flight
 
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KanaHawaii
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:35 am

I think the answer to this question really depends on how Southwest's service to the islands works out. The big experiment in their new service to the islands is to implement the intra-Texas service model into the Hawaii operations, do the long-distance in to it's first airport in Hawaii, and then have it bounce to a second airport or even third before it flies back to the mainland. If it turns out that this model of service works with lower costs than having linear-service interisland service like what Hawaiian has, you can bet that Hawaiian will be looking to retire the 717s for something that will allow it to also enter into this type of interisland service model with lower costs. Does that mean the A220 is the plane for it? well, if Hawaiian wants to be a boutique airline with four types of planes in its stable, than I can see Hawaiian buying a few units and running them to secondary airports, including SNA and even Carlsbad while also using them interisland.

But I think before anyone assumes the A220 will fly to Hawaii anytime soon, the Southwest experiment will need to play out.
 
gkpetery
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:38 am

I just flew United 737 LAX to ITO and it has about only 30-50 passengers on it. That is why I think that A220 might be a better fit for Hawaii destinations like ITO, KOA and LIH.

Of course HNL and OGG can handle much bigger passenger loads and multiple daily flights to LAX

Could you see a A220 on

HNL-SNA
HNL-SAN
HNL-FAT
HNL-ONT
HNL-BUR
 
SeaDoo
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:45 am

gkpetery wrote:
I just flew United 737 LAX to ITO and it has about only 30-50 passengers on it. That is why I think that A220 might be a better fit for Hawaii destinations like ITO, KOA and LIH.

Of course HNL and OGG can handle much bigger passenger loads and multiple daily flights to LAX

Could you see a A220 on

HNL-SNA
HNL-SAN
HNL-FAT
HNL-ONT
HNL-BUR


I would guess HNL-SAN would be the least likely as Hawaiian and Alaska already serve the route.
 
PlnCrzyMikey
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:31 am

I can see SNA-HNL due to the runway performance required out of SNA.
 
airnorth
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:37 am

I can see the A220 flying to Hawaii in June 2020....on a delivery flight to Vanuatu!
 
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Pohakuloa
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Re: Will A220 fly to Hawaii?

Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:15 am

At first glance it would seem that the A220-300 would be good for the likes of KaiserAir or Privatair or other 'high-end' charter/121 carriers. An A322-300 on the 'Kona Shuttle' seems to fit
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