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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2272
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:02 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
This list has more holes than a swiss cheese, 2 minutes research can blow most of them out of the water,

Yes the BA centenary is much contrived involving about 5 name changes, nationalisation, privatisation, and a number of mergers along the way, but so are most others

Absolutely! :checkmark: This is as good a summary as it gets.

None of the contenders are without a few skeletons in their closet. And I say that after considerably longer than 2 minutes research into the various claims.

Continuous operation, even during WWII? Several candidates only just manage to wriggle their way through that period.

Still the same legal entity? Crash bang wallop, and the whole field fall at the first fence.

Original shares still trading on the stock exchange? :shakehead:

Still operating under the same original name? Even Qantas struggles with that one. :o

I started writing a comprehensive listing of the faults to be found in each case, but when I reached page four, I realised no-one would bother reading it.

Of course, if you can't be bothered to do any actual research, there is always...

OA940 wrote:
Regardless of what BA tells itself it was founded in 1974 and is a different entity from its predecessors. But hey we get the specials so they can keep hallucinating

Stunning. I can't imagine why your powerful argument prejudice didn't actually convince me. :roll:

IMHO we need to ask ourselves what criteria are actually genuinely important, and not mould those criteria to fit the particular profile of our favorite airline.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 723
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:13 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Then what about acquisition? Where is the line between merger and acquisition?


Acquisitions shouldn't count. For example, Braniff consuming Panagra or TWA being acquired by American.


The point is there is no clear difference between merger and acquisition.

Most mergers are technically realised as acquisition, i.e. company A buys company B from its shareholders and pays them with new shares of A, so that A+B -> A i.e. it continues with the tax code of A etc. As A acquires also the brand of B, it may change its name to B as well or get a new name, but it can change name anytime anyway.

It is not rare that the de jure acquirer is the smaller company even though the larger appears de facto acquirer. Has happened in aviation several times.

Usually that is called merger if there are political reasons for it. It may be easier for the staff and the loyal customers to adopt it if B is not seen as a loser but as an equal party.

Hence it is not wrong that the airline defines its age by the oldest acquired part of it. Otherwise any major change of ownership, operating structure, name, brand or host country should count as a start of new airline.
 
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OA940
Posts: 1990
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:29 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Bongodog49 wrote:
This list has more holes than a swiss cheese, 2 minutes research can blow most of them out of the water,

Yes the BA centenary is much contrived involving about 5 name changes, nationalisation, privatisation, and a number of mergers along the way, but so are most others

Absolutely! :checkmark: This is as good a summary as it gets.

None of the contenders are without a few skeletons in their closet. And I say that after considerably longer than 2 minutes research into the various claims.

Continuous operation, even during WWII? Several candidates only just manage to wriggle their way through that period.

Still the same legal entity? Crash bang wallop, and the whole field fall at the first fence.

Original shares still trading on the stock exchange? :shakehead:

Still operating under the same original name? Even Qantas struggles with that one. :o

I started writing a comprehensive listing of the faults to be found in each case, but when I reached page four, I realised no-one would bother reading it.

Of course, if you can't be bothered to do any actual research, there is always...

OA940 wrote:
Regardless of what BA tells itself it was founded in 1974 and is a different entity from its predecessors. But hey we get the specials so they can keep hallucinating

Stunning. I can't imagine why your powerful argument prejudice didn't actually convince me. :roll:

IMHO we need to ask ourselves what criteria are actually genuinely important, and not mould those criteria to fit the particular profile of our favorite airline.


Look, it's not prejudice, it's facts. BA was formed by the merger of two different companies and as a seperate one. And preceeding companies don't really count if the company changes or its assets are moved into a different company, so BA is a different airline than BOAC or BEA and it's a 45-year-old airline, not a 100-year-old one. Now if you get so offended by that you think I'm biased and stating this out of favoritism or hate that's not my fault, but you should check your facts.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 449
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:29 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Bongodog49 wrote:
This list has more holes than a swiss cheese, 2 minutes research can blow most of them out of the water,

Yes the BA centenary is much contrived involving about 5 name changes, nationalisation, privatisation, and a number of mergers along the way, but so are most others

Absolutely! :checkmark: This is as good a summary as it gets.

None of the contenders are without a few skeletons in their closet. And I say that after considerably longer than 2 minutes research into the various claims.

Continuous operation, even during WWII? Several candidates only just manage to wriggle their way through that period.

Still the same legal entity? Crash bang wallop, and the whole field fall at the first fence.

Original shares still trading on the stock exchange? :shakehead:

Still operating under the same original name? Even Qantas struggles with that one. :o

I started writing a comprehensive listing of the faults to be found in each case, but when I reached page four, I realised no-one would bother reading it.

Of course, if you can't be bothered to do any actual research, there is always...

OA940 wrote:
Regardless of what BA tells itself it was founded in 1974 and is a different entity from its predecessors. But hey we get the specials so they can keep hallucinating

Stunning. I can't imagine why your powerful argument prejudice didn't actually convince me. :roll:

IMHO we need to ask ourselves what criteria are actually genuinely important, and not mould those criteria to fit the particular profile of our favorite airline.


KLMs case is clear. Their lineage is doubtless. And even during WWII they kept flying in europe and america. But also like someone else already said, its not even about flying but about the company being the same company.

Even if an airline stops flying for 2 years and starts flying again after those 2 years its still the same company.

Anyway, KLM clearly ticks all the boxes.
 
Etheereal
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:44 am

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:30 pm

Qantas59 wrote:
Any thoughts on Avianca?

5 Dec 1919 Sociedad Colombo-Alemana de Transporte Aereo (SCADTA)
14 Jun 1940 Aerovias del Continente Americano S.A. (Avianca)


Someone posted this earlier:

mga707 wrote:
Also, while the list mentions Finnair's original name, it does not note that until shortly before WW2 Avianca was known by the acronym SCADTA and was German-owned. The US government put pressure on the Colombian government to 'kick out' the Germans and reform the airline as a Colombian organization (with assistance from Pan American). The name change to Avianca was part of that.

I'd appreciate if factsonly had info about this as well.
 
Gangurru
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:30 pm

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:40 pm

In my personal collect, I have books about British commercial aviation that were written in every decade from the 1930s to today. It’s a 90 year period of historical perspectives from those inside and outside the airline.

Regarding BA and its predecessors, all consistently acknowledged unbroken links going back to the 1919 foundation. Indeed, decades ago the authors looked forward to the centenary year of 2019. (I’m still waiting for my rocket ship flights!)

As an Australian, I say with a friendly smile that it almost counts as treason to give credit to the Poms. In this case, I genuinely feel that BA has every reason to celebrate a momentous year and the reflect on the achievements of an airline that has influenced the way the whole world flies.
 
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Finn350
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Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:20 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
None of the contenders are without a few skeletons in their closet. And I say that after considerably longer than 2 minutes research into the various claims.

Continuous operation, even during WWII? Several candidates only just manage to wriggle their way through that period.

Still the same legal entity? Crash bang wallop, and the whole field fall at the first fence.

Original shares still trading on the stock exchange? :shakehead:

Still operating under the same original name? Even Qantas struggles with that one. :o

I started writing a comprehensive listing of the faults to be found in each case, but when I reached page four, I realised no-one would bother reading it.

Of course, if you can't be bothered to do any actual research, there is always...


I believe the list is based on that the same legal entity being still in operation. As far as I understand, the following criteria don't disqualify an airline from this list
- legal name change
- whether the shares of the entity have been publicly traded at any point of time
- reduction of service due to WWII or other similar events

I just checked Finnair from the Finnish online trade registry, and Finnair as a legal entity has been registered December 11th, 1923. There has been a name change from Aero O/Y (hence the IATA code AY) to Finnair.

As earlier pointed out, merger & acquisitions make the list murkier, as there are so many different ways to arrange M&A (merging of the legal entities, acquiring the company shares, acquiring the company assets, or any combination of these).
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2272
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:16 pm

Finn350 wrote:
I believe the list is based on that the same legal entity being still in operation. As far as I understand, the following criteria don't disqualify an airline from this list
- legal name change
- whether the shares of the entity have been publicly traded at any point of time
- reduction of service due to WWII or other similar events

I just checked Finnair from the Finnish online trade registry, and Finnair as a legal entity has been registered December 11th, 1923. There has been a name change from Aero O/Y (hence the IATA code AY) to Finnair.

Certainly, Finnair is one of the more honorable candidates. :bigthumbsup:

Here's something for the nitpickers to chew over.
C S Rolls and F H Royce got together in 1904, and were incorporated in 1906 as Rolls-Royce Ltd.

In 1971 Rolls-Royce Limited entered voluntary liquidation.

It remains in existence today, still in liquidation, with a file number for its name.

However, back in 1971 it's business and assets were bought by the UK government using a company created for the purpose named Rolls-Royce (1971) limited.

This (1971) company remains in existence today and carries on Rolls-Royce business under the name Rolls-Royce plc

So exactly how old is Rolls Royce?
And indeed, which is the real Rolls Royce?
The one with the original company registration dating back to 1906?
Or the company that today makes Trent engines?

In itself, the Rolls Royce situation is off-topic for this thread, but it serves as a warning.

IMHO we need to ask ourselves what criteria are actually genuinely important, and not mould those criteria to fit the particular profile of our favorite airline.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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Finn350
Topic Author
Posts: 1601
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:11 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
C S Rolls and F H Royce got together in 1904, and were incorporated in 1906 as Rolls-Royce Ltd.

In 1971 Rolls-Royce Limited entered voluntary liquidation.

It remains in existence today, still in liquidation, with a file number for its name.

However, back in 1971 it's business and assets were bought by the UK government using a company created for the purpose named Rolls-Royce (1971) limited.

This (1971) company remains in existence today and carries on Rolls-Royce business under the name Rolls-Royce plc

So exactly how old is Rolls Royce?
And indeed, which is the real Rolls Royce?
The one with the original company registration dating back to 1906?
Or the company that today makes Trent engines?

In itself, the Rolls Royce situation is off-topic for this thread, but it serves as a warning.

IMHO we need to ask ourselves what criteria are actually genuinely important, and not mould those criteria to fit the particular profile of our favorite airline.


As a brand, Rolls Royce is 113 years old (since 1906). As a legal entity, the current Rolls Royce car company is only 48 years old (since 1971) based on your description. So it depends whether we are listing brands or companies, and your point about what criteria is genuinely important is relevant.
 
JU241
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:28 pm

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:04 pm

Air Serbia (JU) is a direct successor to Jat Airways (JU) which was a shrunken version of JAT-Yugoslav Airlines (JU) following the demise of ex-Yugoslavia (which Serbia was part of, but also existed before it, it's not a "start-up" country).
The only dubious link would be the one between JAT and pre WW-II Aeroput (founded 1927) , but even in this case you could consider the force majeure caused by Nazi occupation and destruction of property : as soon as circumstances permitted, the national airline of Yugoslavia was reestablished (with some members of the board coming back) and resumed operations, albeit under a different name.
 
Werecow
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:57 pm

Re: The world's longest-running airlines

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:34 pm

Bongodog49 wrote:
This list has more holes than a swiss cheese, 2 minutes research can blow most of them out of the water, examples below:
Air Serbia - how can an airline have been existent since 1927 when it has only has its name for 5 years and its host country isn't much older.
Iberia - Big gap in its history, whilst the name was extant in the 1930's it had no routes and no planes.
Delta - Went through bankruptcy in 2007.

Yes the BA centenary is much contrived involving about 5 name changes, nationalisation, privatisation, and a number of mergers along the way, but so are most others


Plenty of airlines have gone through bankruptcy and come out the other side. Not sure why Delta's would matter?
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