Iluvtofly
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:22 pm

Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:53 am

I strongly encourage anyone with a sense or morals to boycott flying Royal Brunei considering the new laws passed yesterday. I am sure that the moderators will *ban* my post. But good God its 2019 and Brunei has just allowed stoning to death as a penalty for being gay ?
Last edited by qf789 on Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: title updated for clarity
Flown - B707 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 A300 310 319 320 321 330 340 Concorde BAC111 TU154 VC10 F27 F28 F100 DC3 DC8 DC9 DC10 L1011 L188 DHC6 DHC7 DHC8 E135 E145 HS748 MD11 ST27 CV580 S340 ATR42 J31
 
juliuswong
Moderator
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:14 am

Virgin Australia terminated their ID Staff Travel with Royal Brunei with immediate effect when the news first broke on 1st April 2019 and there is a lobby group pressing the government to revoke their landing rights at Melbourne. BI will soon re-launch Brisbane, not sure what will transpire.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
brucetiki
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:36 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:18 am

Frankly. Royal Brunei deserve to be sent to the wall.

I'm all for the boycott, and I applaud VA for dumping their code sharing agreement with them.
 
Iluvtofly
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:22 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:28 am

Who in their right mind would want a friend or relative to even chance a *connection* via Bandar on Royal Brunei after reading the new Shariah laws imposed a couple of days ago.
Flown - B707 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 A300 310 319 320 321 330 340 Concorde BAC111 TU154 VC10 F27 F28 F100 DC3 DC8 DC9 DC10 L1011 L188 DHC6 DHC7 DHC8 E135 E145 HS748 MD11 ST27 CV580 S340 ATR42 J31
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2650
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:23 am

From a purely aviation business perspective, I imagine this can only harm Royal Brunei. If and when a community boycott gets established it's pretty hard to reverse it. And presumably Royal Brunei is heavily reliant on the Australian market to feed their London ops.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:28 am

After a while people will forget about it and start flying BI again after they introduce enticing promo fares. In any case, why are people getting their knickers in a bunch - the law doesn't apply to them even if they visit Brunei, unless they're Muslims and someone reports them, and even action can only be taken with incontrovertible proof.

There are far bigger things to be outraged about in the world today. Making noises about a rinky dink country in Borneo is hardly important in the greater scheme of things.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
juliuswong
Moderator
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:04 am

aerokiwi wrote:
From a purely aviation business perspective, I imagine this can only harm Royal Brunei. If and when a community boycott gets established it's pretty hard to reverse it. And presumably Royal Brunei is heavily reliant on the Australian market to feed their London ops.

Yes, Royal Brunei relies heavily on Melbourne and Brisbane to feed their non-stop flight to LHR, like it was back in 90's. However the A320 will be on ground at BNE for over 12 hours in order to make the LHR connection works. Missing pieces now are SYD and PER.

https://blueswandaily.com/royal-brunei- ... -brisbane/
Last edited by juliuswong on Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
caliboy93
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:28 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:05 am

Royal Brunei is not ME3, US3 or BA/AF/LH/KL, it's really small, so I doubt the boycott will have a far reach.
 
69bug
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:28 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:31 am

Include Malaysia as well. Sodomy is a crime here.

p.s. I'm Malaysian.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:36 am

69bug wrote:
Include Malaysia as well. Sodomy is a crime here.

p.s. I'm Malaysian.


Sodomy laws applies to heterosexuals too, so not merely a tool to oppress homosexuality.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
juliuswong
Moderator
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:04 am

caliboy93 wrote:
Royal Brunei is not ME3, US3 or BA/AF/LH/KL, it's really small, so I doubt the boycott will have a far reach.

Yes, boycotting BI won't be far reaching tbh. However the Brunei Government investment arm, BIA, will take the most hit. Their portfolio of posh hotel Dorchecter Collection has seen multiple cancellation and with Hollywood and Western media demonizing, I would say good luck to their workers. Grand Hyatt Singapore and Malaysia also belongs to Brunei Government.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
dredgy
Posts: 415
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:13 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:07 am

I wouldn’t personally boycott Royal Brunei, though certainly understand people doing so, but I’d feel hypocritical (plus I’ve flown the, quite often and actually find them to be a great airline). Introducing those kinds of laws in this day and age is abhorrent.

That said, thousands of gay travellers transit seamlessly in the UAE and Qatar, and there are plenty of other tourist destinations with anti-gay laws (Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt etc) where lgbt travellers are fine with.

Brunei is one of the safest countries in the world for a tourist, and will remain so, just don’t get it on in public. There are many countries with odd laws you have to work around as a tourist, but you only have to for so long. The people who are actually affected by this are homosexual people in Brunei who can’t live truly freely.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:16 am

dredgy wrote:
I wouldn’t personally boycott Royal Brunei, though certainly understand people doing so, but I’d feel hypocritical (plus I’ve flown the, quite often and actually find them to be a great airline). Introducing those kinds of laws in this day and age is abhorrent.

That said, thousands of gay travellers transit seamlessly in the UAE and Qatar, and there are plenty of other tourist destinations with anti-gay laws (Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt etc) where lgbt travellers are fine with.

Brunei is one of the safest countries in the world for a tourist, and will remain so, just don’t get it on in public. There are many countries with odd laws you have to work around as a tourist, but you only have to for so long. The people who are actually affected by this are homosexual people in Brunei who can’t live truly freely.


Add Brazil and Italy to the list of LGBT-hating countries.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
hariacc
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:15 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:17 am

dredgy wrote:

That said, thousands of gay travellers transit seamlessly in the UAE and Qatar, and there are plenty of other tourist destinations with anti-gay laws (Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt etc) where lgbt travellers are fine with.
.


Well, there is no anti gays law in Indonesia. Some people propose it and even asked Constitution Court to enact it but it was rejected by Constitution Court that said the such law only can be made by parlement.
 
a320fan
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:19 am

dredgy wrote:
I wouldn’t personally boycott Royal Brunei, though certainly understand people doing so, but I’d feel hypocritical (plus I’ve flown the, quite often and actually find the, to be a great airline). Introducing those kinds of laws in this day and age is abhorrent.

That said, thousands of gay travellers transit seamlessly in the UAE and Qatar, and there are plenty of other tourist destinations with anti-gay laws (Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt etc) where lgbt travellers are fine with.

Brunei is one of the safest countries in the world for a tourist, and will remain so, just don’t get it on in public.


This is one of the most balanced posts in this thread. The laws are terrible, so are the laws in UAE, Qatar, Singapore, Malaysia etc. (Most connecrikg countries from AU-EU), though death penalty is an extra level of extreme. I flew BI yesterday to London and as the post above felt hypocritical. Just as I did flying QR on my last trip. Fact is the world isn’t completely at the same level when it comes to lgbt rights for various reasons. It’s sad and as a gay person it does hit personally, but I would hate the fact I’m gay to hold me back from seeing the world. Fact is as a foreigner, especially one just connecting through the airport you’re quite unlikely to become a victim of any of any of these laws.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:30 am

a320fan wrote:
dredgy wrote:
I wouldn’t personally boycott Royal Brunei, though certainly understand people doing so, but I’d feel hypocritical (plus I’ve flown the, quite often and actually find the, to be a great airline). Introducing those kinds of laws in this day and age is abhorrent.

That said, thousands of gay travellers transit seamlessly in the UAE and Qatar, and there are plenty of other tourist destinations with anti-gay laws (Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt etc) where lgbt travellers are fine with.

Brunei is one of the safest countries in the world for a tourist, and will remain so, just don’t get it on in public.


This is one of the most balanced posts in this thread. The laws are terrible, so are the laws in UAE, Qatar, Singapore, Malaysia etc. (Most connecrikg countries from AU-EU), though death penalty is an extra level of extreme. I flew BI yesterday to London and as the post above felt hypocritical. Just as I did flying QR on my last trip. Fact is the world isn’t completely at the same level when it comes to lgbt rights for various reasons. It’s sad and as a gay person it does hit personally, but I would hate the fact I’m gay to hold me back from seeing the world. Fact is as a foreigner, especially one just connecting through the airport you’re quite unlikely to become a victim of any of any of these laws.


I guess I see it differently; quite frankly, I have zero desire to ever set foot in places in the world that do this kind of medieval stuff. No amount of shiny new 787's or artificial islands will change this.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1350
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:34 am

aerokiwi wrote:
From a purely aviation business perspective, I imagine this can only harm Royal Brunei. If and when a community boycott gets established it's pretty hard to reverse it. And presumably Royal Brunei is heavily reliant on the Australian market to feed their London ops.


That would actually surprise me. Isn't the geography wrong? ... check gcmap.com ... dang. The geography actually isn't so bad. Makes Dubai look out of the way.

Image
 
a320fan
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:43 am

kitplane01 wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
From a purely aviation business perspective, I imagine this can only harm Royal Brunei. If and when a community boycott gets established it's pretty hard to reverse it. And presumably Royal Brunei is heavily reliant on the Australian market to feed their London ops.


That would actually surprise me. Isn't the geography wrong? ... check gcmap.com ... dang. The geography actually isn't so bad. Makes Dubai look out of the way.

Image


Geography is fine, they offer one of the shortest total travel times from MEL to LHR. Shorter than QF9 via PER for a third of the price.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A350-900, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300, Q400
 
bcworld
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 1:28 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:09 am

kitplane01 wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
From a purely aviation business perspective, I imagine this can only harm Royal Brunei. If and when a community boycott gets established it's pretty hard to reverse it. And presumably Royal Brunei is heavily reliant on the Australian market to feed their London ops.


That would actually surprise me. Isn't the geography wrong? ... check gcmap.com ... dang. The geography actually isn't so bad. Makes Dubai look out of the way.


SYD-BWN-LHR is FOURTEEN miles longer than SYD-LHR...so, no!

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SYD-LHR;SYD-BWN-LHR
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1747
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:38 am

a320fan wrote:
dredgy wrote:
I wouldn’t personally boycott Royal Brunei, though certainly understand people doing so, but I’d feel hypocritical (plus I’ve flown the, quite often and actually find the, to be a great airline). Introducing those kinds of laws in this day and age is abhorrent.

That said, thousands of gay travellers transit seamlessly in the UAE and Qatar, and there are plenty of other tourist destinations with anti-gay laws (Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt etc) where lgbt travellers are fine with.

Brunei is one of the safest countries in the world for a tourist, and will remain so, just don’t get it on in public.


This is one of the most balanced posts in this thread. The laws are terrible, so are the laws in UAE, Qatar, Singapore, Malaysia etc. (Most connecrikg countries from AU-EU), though death penalty is an extra level of extreme. I flew BI yesterday to London and as the post above felt hypocritical. Just as I did flying QR on my last trip. Fact is the world isn’t completely at the same level when it comes to lgbt rights for various reasons. It’s sad and as a gay person it does hit personally, but I would hate the fact I’m gay to hold me back from seeing the world. Fact is as a foreigner, especially one just connecting through the airport you’re quite unlikely to become a victim of any of any of these laws.


I agree to some extent. I feel some ambivalence about going to places where my sexual orientation is punishable by law, even if these places are otherwise culturally rich places that may be worth visiting.

I had the privilege of traveling a lot as a child and teen, though my perspective has changed considerably since coming out. Almost all of my travel in the last few years just so happens to have been within the western world where being a gay man isn’t too much of a problem (though we still have not completely accomplished liberation). I would love to return to Southeast Asia soon or visit the Middle East, though it would be unfortunate to be deprived of freely finding our own communities in these places. Yes, I would probably still be willing to go and would have a worthwhile time, though I know I would never be able to feel completely comfortable.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3254
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:49 am

2019...the year it is fashionable to be offended or outraged.

A country has a right to set their own laws. If you don’t like them, don’t go there - but stop preaching to everyone else what they can and can’t do.

The world is beyond mad now.
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2650
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:53 am

Obviously it's a personal decision as to whether or not you choose an airline based on the domestic policies of its owner. Stoning to death crosses a line with me.

It's also why I now chose to not fly EK. While EY and QR are also owned by bigot governments, Dubai has been responsible flr some fairly terrible arrests and detainments of foreigners, which us a threat to my own safety. Perhaps Abu D and Qatar are too, in which case I'll add them to the list. But it's a very fuzzy line for people.

I do hope Australians avoid BI herein. The fact the Vic state govt subsidised the initial BI services is pretty poor form.
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3254
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:07 am

aerokiwi wrote:

It's also why I now chose to not fly EK. While EY and QR are also owned by bigot governments, Dubai has been responsible flr some fairly terrible arrests and detainments of foreigners, which us a threat to my own safety. Perhaps Abu D and Qatar are too, in which case I'll add them to the list. But it's a very fuzzy line for people.
.


If your unable to comply with the laws of the country you choose to visit, then yes you can assume you’ll be punished.

It’s nice to know the 2019 outrage brigade are avoiding some of the airlines I use most though. At least I don’t have to worry about accidentally sneezing in a tone that can be deemed racist/sexist/homophobic when I’m asleep.
 
TC957
Posts: 3514
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:12 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:08 am

Practically every country has laws that overseas visiting citizens can fall foul of but keep your nose clean when visiting such countries and you won't have a problem. Not that I think going back to medieval punishment methods is in any way fit for any nation to go about perpetrators.
 
nethkt
Posts: 1022
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2001 10:27 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:20 am

What about Singapore law against LGBT? I think it's a punishable act as well.
Let's just blame it on yields.
 
EChid
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:00 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:24 am

dredgy wrote:
I wouldn’t personally boycott Royal Brunei, though certainly understand people doing so, but I’d feel hypocritical (plus I’ve flown the, quite often and actually find them to be a great airline). Introducing those kinds of laws in this day and age is abhorrent.

That said, thousands of gay travellers transit seamlessly in the UAE and Qatar, and there are plenty of other tourist destinations with anti-gay laws (Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt etc) where lgbt travellers are fine with.

Brunei is one of the safest countries in the world for a tourist, and will remain so, just don’t get it on in public. There are many countries with odd laws you have to work around as a tourist, but you only have to for so long. The people who are actually affected by this are homosexual people in Brunei who can’t live truly freely.

This seems pretty apologist. Working around laws and customs that say it's unacceptable to take pictures of monks or eat a certain type or fruit? Sure, no biggie. That's not comparable to being stoned to death because of aspects about yourself you can't control. And don't kid yourself, this law also applies to visiting foreigners.

'Others do it, so it's fine' is not a reasonable argument.
2018: DRW-PER-HKG-ICN-MEL-AVV-BNE-OOL-SYD-YYZ-YYZ-YUL-YVR-PDX-SEA-SFO-PEK-KIX-CDG-IST-NRT-HND-BKK-FAT; AC J-TK J-OZ F-DL F-TG J/F-NH J/F-CX J-VA J
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1350
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:29 am

1989worstyear wrote:
dredgy wrote:
I wouldn’t personally boycott Royal Brunei, though certainly understand people doing so, but I’d feel hypocritical (plus I’ve flown the, quite often and actually find them to be a great airline). Introducing those kinds of laws in this day and age is abhorrent.

That said, thousands of gay travellers transit seamlessly in the UAE and Qatar, and there are plenty of other tourist destinations with anti-gay laws (Indonesia, Malaysia, Egypt etc) where lgbt travellers are fine with.

Brunei is one of the safest countries in the world for a tourist, and will remain so, just don’t get it on in public. There are many countries with odd laws you have to work around as a tourist, but you only have to for so long. The people who are actually affected by this are homosexual people in Brunei who can’t live truly freely.


Add Brazil and Italy to the list of LGBT-hating countries.


In Italy, gay sex is legal and they have same sex partner / civil union laws. In Brunei it's the death penalty.

I didn't want anyone to be fooled into thinking Italy and Brunei were in the same category LGBT-wise. Now back to airplanes ...
 
jcancel
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:31 am

You can see how much conservatism has come into Brunei through the female FA dress codes. It seems like previously they showed hair and necks, but not anymore.

* 2000: http://archive.is/NlbJs
* 2012: http://archive.is/tcbA - hair not showing but neck still is
* 2018: http://archive.is/NfTka - now seeing female flight crew, and now have hijab with no neck and hair. Also http://archive.is/UrN4u

Apparently Saudia went through a similar change in the 80s
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2650
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:03 am

planesarecool wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:

It's also why I now chose to not fly EK. While EY and QR are also owned by bigot governments, Dubai has been responsible flr some fairly terrible arrests and detainments of foreigners, which us a threat to my own safety. Perhaps Abu D and Qatar are too, in which case I'll add them to the list. But it's a very fuzzy line for people.
.


If your unable to comply with the laws of the country you choose to visit, then yes you can assume you’ll be punished.

It’s nice to know the 2019 outrage brigade are avoiding some of the airlines I use most though. At least I don’t have to worry about accidentally sneezing in a tone that can be deemed racist/sexist/homophobic when I’m asleep.


There are some fundamental elements of my existence that some countries now deem punishable by death. So yes, I'm chosing not to visit them. But I'm also chosing not to support them via airline/hotel/other choice, as a small show of solidarity for innocents within these countries that could have their lives extinguished because of these laws.

But don't let such trivialities get in the way of your regurgitation of the "outrage machine" excuse. If one day you find that being who you are is punishable by a terrible death, perhaps you'll understand. Meantime, enjoy your (hopefully) empty flight.
 
jcancel
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:11 am

In some of the countries the situation is very weird and complex https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/305774/

‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’
The gay men I interviewed in Jeddah and Riyadh laughed when I asked them if they worried about being executed. Although they do fear the mutawwa'in to some degree, they believe the House of Saud isn’t interested in a widespread hunt of homosexuals. For one thing, such an effort might expose members of the royal family to awkward scrutiny. “If they wanted to arrest all the gay people in Saudi Arabia,” Misfir, my chat-room guide, told me—repeating what he says was a police officer’s comment—“they’d have to put a fence around the whole country.”


The same article talks about foreign gay guys who live in Saudi Arabia. The idea is that it's overlooked so long as it's in the closet and you don't get powerful people mad at you. The author said in a way straight people are closeted too due to gender segregation.

aerokiwi wrote:
planesarecool wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:

It's also why I now chose to not fly EK. While EY and QR are also owned by bigot governments, Dubai has been responsible flr some fairly terrible arrests and detainments of foreigners, which us a threat to my own safety. Perhaps Abu D and Qatar are too, in which case I'll add them to the list. But it's a very fuzzy line for people.
.


If your unable to comply with the laws of the country you choose to visit, then yes you can assume you’ll be punished.

It’s nice to know the 2019 outrage brigade are avoiding some of the airlines I use most though. At least I don’t have to worry about accidentally sneezing in a tone that can be deemed racist/sexist/homophobic when I’m asleep.


There are some fundamental elements of my existence that some countries now deem punishable by death. So yes, I'm chosing not to visit them. But I'm also chosing not to support them via airline/hotel/other choice, as a small show of solidarity for innocents within these countries that could have their lives extinguished because of these laws.

But don't let such trivialities get in the way of your regurgitation of the "outrage machine" excuse. If one day you find that being who you are is punishable by a terrible death, perhaps you'll understand. Meantime, enjoy your (hopefully) empty flight.
 
max999
Posts: 1132
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:12 am

planesarecool wrote:
2019...the year it is fashionable to be offended or outraged.

A country has a right to set their own laws. If you don’t like them, don’t go there - but stop preaching to everyone else what they can and can’t do.

The world is beyond mad now.


Being outraged at another country's cruel laws is not a new 2019 thing.

Example, the Anti-Apartheid Movement against the South African government started in the 1960's. That movement started in the UK and eventually spread to many other countries. It culminated to being one of the factors that brought down the Apartheid government in 1994.

So it's 2019: being outraged at the outrage is in fashion now.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3254
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:43 am

aerokiwi wrote:
There are some fundamental elements of my existence that some countries now deem punishable by death. So yes, I'm chosing not to visit them. But I'm also chosing not to support them via airline/hotel/other choice, as a small show of solidarity for innocents within these countries that could have their lives extinguished because of these laws.
.


Good for you. Doesn’t mean everyone else has to do the same.
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8310
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:13 am

This law is derived from Sodomy being illegal in the Quran and Hadith and is nothing new to any other socially conservative nations that use the original texts from the Bible or the Torah as the grounds for state laws for that matter. Apparently10 Islamic countries still share the death penalty as punishment for homosexuals (only 10 now in the world and not all actively apply death penalty) including Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar. There are 72 countries where it is still illegal to be homosexual across Africa and the Islamic world, why not boycott them as well? Why no boycott for SV, EK, ET, KQ, AI, TG, MH or QR? I get sick of the hypocrisy of all these do-gooders and social media crusaders. Don't fly to Brunei? That is no sacrifice for their convictions, that is just a signal to show how amazingly virtuous and woke (read smug and patronising) they are to all their imaginary friends on social media. How many of these people boycotting would have gone there anyway regardless of the law??. I reckon it would be Sweet FA. Just make your consumer decisions without histrionics and phoney humility. I just wish they would be so quick to call out those who want to bring archaic religion-based law to our free countries which oppose these barbaric principles. Personally, I wouldn't fly BI because although they are cheap, they are dry and have a pathetic route network, but each to their own. I can't afford any of the hotels the Sultan owns anyway, so I guess I will just stick to the Crown Plaza or Holiday Inn.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Iluvtofly
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:22 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:52 am

aerokiwi wrote:
planesarecool wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:

It's also why I now chose to not fly EK. While EY and QR are also owned by bigot governments, Dubai has been responsible flr some fairly terrible arrests and detainments of foreigners, which us a threat to my own safety. Perhaps Abu D and Qatar are too, in which case I'll add them to the list. But it's a very fuzzy line for people.
.


If your unable to comply with the laws of the country you choose to visit, then yes you can assume you’ll be punished.

It’s nice to know the 2019 outrage brigade are avoiding some of the airlines I use most though. At least I don’t have to worry about accidentally sneezing in a tone that can be deemed racist/sexist/homophobic when I’m asleep.


There are some fundamental elements of my existence that some countries now deem punishable by death. So yes, I'm chosing not to visit them. But I'm also chosing not to support them via airline/hotel/other choice, as a small show of solidarity for innocents within these countries that could have their lives extinguished because of these laws.

But don't let such trivialities get in the way of your regurgitation of the "outrage machine" excuse. If one day you find that being who you are is punishable by a terrible death, perhaps you'll understand. Meantime, enjoy your (hopefully) empty flight.

Touche Aerokiwi .... Thank You .... well said
Flown - B707 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 A300 310 319 320 321 330 340 Concorde BAC111 TU154 VC10 F27 F28 F100 DC3 DC8 DC9 DC10 L1011 L188 DHC6 DHC7 DHC8 E135 E145 HS748 MD11 ST27 CV580 S340 ATR42 J31
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2650
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:57 am

planesarecool wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
There are some fundamental elements of my existence that some countries now deem punishable by death. So yes, I'm chosing not to visit them. But I'm also chosing not to support them via airline/hotel/other choice, as a small show of solidarity for innocents within these countries that could have their lives extinguished because of these laws.
.


Good for you. Doesn’t mean everyone else has to do the same.


At no stage did I suggest that. I even acknowledged that it's a tough call for people (where do you draw the line?) and that it's an individual's choice. Perhaps read a post properly before leaping to your own kind of outrage.

Whatever happens - and I'm assuming this happens for domestic political purposes - it can't bode well for local tourism, commerce or Royal Brunei. They already have super low fares out of Australia and have been an interesting choice for budget travellers. Though I doubt the carrier operates on a commercial basis anyway and any losses would be covered by the Sultan.
 
Iluvtofly
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:22 pm

Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:05 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
This law is derived from Sodomy being illegal in the Quran and Hadith and is nothing new to any other socially conservative nations that use the original texts from the Bible or the Torah as the grounds for state laws for that matter. Apparently10 Islamic countries still share the death penalty as punishment for homosexuals (only 10 now in the world and not all actively apply death penalty) including Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar. There are 72 countries where it is still illegal to be homosexual across Africa and the Islamic world, why not boycott them as well? Why no boycott for SV, EK, ET, KQ, AI, TG, MH or QR? I get sick of the hypocrisy of all these do-gooders and social media crusaders. Don't fly to Brunei? That is no sacrifice for their convictions, that is just a signal to show how amazingly virtuous and woke (read smug and patronising) they are to all their imaginary friends on social media. How many of these people boycotting would have gone there anyway regardless of the law??. I reckon it would be Sweet FA. Just make your consumer decisions without histrionics and phoney humility. I just wish they would be so quick to call out those who want to bring archaic religion-based law to our free countries which oppose these barbaric principles. Personally, I wouldn't fly BI because although they are cheap, they are dry and have a pathetic route network, but each to their own. I can't afford any of the hotels the Sultan owns anyway, so I guess I will just stick to the Crown Plaza or Holiday Inn.

There is a difference between *illegal* and being punished by being stoned to death .... so get your facts straight!
*The laws, including death by stoning for adultery and gay sex, make Brunei the first place in east or south-east Asia to have a sharia penal code at a national level, joining several mostly Middle Eastern countries, such as Saudi Arabia.*
Thailand, Malaysia etc cannot be compared in anything close to the same way. Homosexuality was decriminalized in Thailand in 1956
Flown - B707 727 737 747 757 767 777 787 A300 310 319 320 321 330 340 Concorde BAC111 TU154 VC10 F27 F28 F100 DC3 DC8 DC9 DC10 L1011 L188 DHC6 DHC7 DHC8 E135 E145 HS748 MD11 ST27 CV580 S340 ATR42 J31
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10565
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:17 pm

I think the comparisons to other countries where homosexuality is repressed are very fair. Progress in attaining equal rights is (understandably) going to be slow in many nations, but the key difference here is that Brunei appears to be going even further backwards than it was. Internationally, this needs to be condemned.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8310
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:44 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
I think the comparisons to other countries where homosexuality is repressed are very fair. Progress in attaining equal rights is (understandably) going to be slow in many nations, but the key difference here is that Brunei appears to be going even further backwards than it was. Internationally, this needs to be condemned.


Yes, it does, but not by individual people boycotts which do absolutely nothing, but by International Sanctions of the same ilk as North Korea up to and including the freezing of international assets and offshore bank accounts. Someone like the Sultan has super deep pockets. He has support internationally by other influential countries with deep pockets who will continue to fund him and support him no matter what, so it won't be easy to flush him without penalties for them too, but the free world should do a little more than just say they oppose it. Fact is they are paranoid about being called the 'I' word and losing access to Oil, so they won't do a thing, and he knows this. The same thing has applied to Saudia Arabia for years with their state-sponsored terrorism, extrajudicial killings and dismal human rights, yet they continue to interact with the world unimpeded. If the governments of Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia or Tunisia and any of the more progressive nations was to publically condemn Saudi Arabia and Brunei as embarrassments to the teachings of Islam and cut ties that would be an amazing thing, but I am sure they will not. This is an uncomfortable truth to the many peaceful and devout Muslims across the world who have advanced beyond this and who want the western freedoms and lifestyle.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
bagoldex
Posts: 1027
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:33 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:30 pm

planesarecool wrote:
aerokiwi wrote:
There are some fundamental elements of my existence that some countries now deem punishable by death. So yes, I'm chosing not to visit them. But I'm also chosing not to support them via airline/hotel/other choice, as a small show of solidarity for innocents within these countries that could have their lives extinguished because of these laws.
.


Good for you. Doesn’t mean everyone else has to do the same.


So if a country started stoning straight Muslims like yourself would you sit back and say that's fine and just not travel there?
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1350
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:16 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
This law is derived from Sodomy being illegal in the Quran and Hadith and is nothing new to any other socially conservative nations that use the original texts from the Bible or the Torah as the grounds for state laws for that matter. Apparently10 Islamic countries still share the death penalty as punishment for homosexuals (only 10 now in the world and not all actively apply death penalty) including Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar. There are 72 countries where it is still illegal to be homosexual across Africa and the Islamic world, why not boycott them as well? Why no boycott for SV, EK, ET, KQ, AI, TG, MH or QR? I get sick of the hypocrisy of all these do-gooders and social media crusaders. Don't fly to Brunei? That is no sacrifice for their convictions, that is just a signal to show how amazingly virtuous and woke (read smug and patronising) they are to all their imaginary friends on social media. How many of these people boycotting would have gone there anyway regardless of the law??. I reckon it would be Sweet FA. Just make your consumer decisions without histrionics and phoney humility. I just wish they would be so quick to call out those who want to bring archaic religion-based law to our free countries which oppose these barbaric principles. Personally, I wouldn't fly BI because although they are cheap, they are dry and have a pathetic route network, but each to their own. I can't afford any of the hotels the Sultan owns anyway, so I guess I will just stick to the Crown Plaza or Holiday Inn.


Can I assume you didn't participate in the boycotts against South Africa during the Apartheid era? And that looking back, you believe they were a bad idea?
 
User avatar
aerorobnz
Posts: 8310
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:48 am

kitplane01 wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:
This law is derived from Sodomy being illegal in the Quran and Hadith and is nothing new to any other socially conservative nations that use the original texts from the Bible or the Torah as the grounds for state laws for that matter. Apparently10 Islamic countries still share the death penalty as punishment for homosexuals (only 10 now in the world and not all actively apply death penalty) including Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar. There are 72 countries where it is still illegal to be homosexual across Africa and the Islamic world, why not boycott them as well? Why no boycott for SV, EK, ET, KQ, AI, TG, MH or QR? I get sick of the hypocrisy of all these do-gooders and social media crusaders. Don't fly to Brunei? That is no sacrifice for their convictions, that is just a signal to show how amazingly virtuous and woke (read smug and patronising) they are to all their imaginary friends on social media. How many of these people boycotting would have gone there anyway regardless of the law??. I reckon it would be Sweet FA. Just make your consumer decisions without histrionics and phoney humility. I just wish they would be so quick to call out those who want to bring archaic religion-based law to our free countries which oppose these barbaric principles. Personally, I wouldn't fly BI because although they are cheap, they are dry and have a pathetic route network, but each to their own. I can't afford any of the hotels the Sultan owns anyway, so I guess I will just stick to the Crown Plaza or Holiday Inn.


Can I assume you didn't participate in the boycotts against South Africa during the Apartheid era? And that looking back, you believe they were a bad idea?


No. For one they were before I was born or in m y very early years, and two I am advocating harsh international political and economic sanctions against Brunei AND any other country who has similar laws, not protests or boycotts or anything ineffectual like that, therefore yes I would have recommended that South Africa be isolated from the outside until the regime capitulated and Apartheid crushed, which of course was resultant in the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986 from the US, EEC and Japan. I stand for action rather than moral crusades with no teeth.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:49 am

bagoldex wrote:
So if a country started stoning straight Muslims like yourself would you sit back and say that's fine and just not travel there?


You need to understand something - these actions needs to be proven in a court of law, just like Western laws. They're not pulling people of the streets and stoning them willy nilly.

If you manage to keep it private, you won't get caught.


aerorobnz wrote:
Yes, it does, but not by individual people boycotts which do absolutely nothing, but by International Sanctions of the same ilk as North Korea up to and including the freezing of international assets and offshore bank accounts.


Do that, and all you get is a promotion of extremism. Such actions have proven themselves incapable of fermenting lasting change - case in point Libya, Iran & Iraq.

If the Bruneians want Western ideals, let the Bruneians fight for it themselves. That would bring lasting change as opposed to change forced upon them by Western forces. This is merely another form of imperialism, and we're past imperialism.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1350
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:13 am

aerorobnz wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:
This law is derived from Sodomy being illegal in the Quran and Hadith and is nothing new to any other socially conservative nations that use the original texts from the Bible or the Torah as the grounds for state laws for that matter. Apparently10 Islamic countries still share the death penalty as punishment for homosexuals (only 10 now in the world and not all actively apply death penalty) including Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar. There are 72 countries where it is still illegal to be homosexual across Africa and the Islamic world, why not boycott them as well? Why no boycott for SV, EK, ET, KQ, AI, TG, MH or QR? I get sick of the hypocrisy of all these do-gooders and social media crusaders. Don't fly to Brunei? That is no sacrifice for their convictions, that is just a signal to show how amazingly virtuous and woke (read smug and patronising) they are to all their imaginary friends on social media. How many of these people boycotting would have gone there anyway regardless of the law??. I reckon it would be Sweet FA. Just make your consumer decisions without histrionics and phoney humility. I just wish they would be so quick to call out those who want to bring archaic religion-based law to our free countries which oppose these barbaric principles. Personally, I wouldn't fly BI because although they are cheap, they are dry and have a pathetic route network, but each to their own. I can't afford any of the hotels the Sultan owns anyway, so I guess I will just stick to the Crown Plaza or Holiday Inn.


Can I assume you didn't participate in the boycotts against South Africa during the Apartheid era? And that looking back, you believe they were a bad idea?


No. For one they were before I was born or in m y very early years, and two I am advocating harsh international political and economic sanctions against Brunei AND any other country who has similar laws, not protests or boycotts or anything ineffectual like that, therefore yes I would have recommended that South Africa be isolated from the outside until the regime capitulated and Apartheid crushed, which of course was resultant in the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act of 1986 from the US, EEC and Japan. I stand for action rather than moral crusades with no teeth.


Just to make sure I understand ...

- You think what the Brunei government is going is horrible
- You think the US should boycott them
- But you don't think individual Americans should boycott them

Are all three of these right? Which one(s) are wrong?
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1350
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:17 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
If the Bruneians want Western ideals, let the Bruneians fight for it themselves. That would bring lasting change as opposed to change forced upon them by Western forces. This is merely another form of imperialism, and we're past imperialism.


- If the Brunei government repeatedly, intentionally does something totally immoral, we should boycott them.
- Killing people for being gay is totally immoral

- Apartheid was horrible
- We partially boycotted South Africa
- That was part of the reason South Africa changed

Do you disagree with any of these statements?
 
Osiris
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:46 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
69bug wrote:
Include Malaysia as well. Sodomy is a crime here.

p.s. I'm Malaysian.


Sodomy laws applies to heterosexuals too, so not merely a tool to oppress homosexuality.


So as long as it oppresses heterosexuals too then that's OK? Only homosexuals can be oppressed?
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:24 am

kitplane01 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
If the Bruneians want Western ideals, let the Bruneians fight for it themselves. That would bring lasting change as opposed to change forced upon them by Western forces. This is merely another form of imperialism, and we're past imperialism.


- If the Brunei government repeatedly, intentionally does something totally immoral, we should boycott them.
- Killing people for being gay is totally immoral

- Apartheid was horrible
- We partially boycotted South Africa
- That was part of the reason South Africa changed

Do you disagree with any of these statements?


I disagree with everything.

First off Brunei isn't killing people for being gay. Brunei will try those who are caught having same sex intercourse, and they have a chance to prove their innocence. If proven innocent, they will be let free. Fact is you're not going to get stoned just for being gay unless you have sex in public, which serves you right for being stupid.

Secondly the change in Apartheid was driven from within. And the boycotts have at best a marginal impact on South Africa. To attribute the change solely to the boycotts is sorely mistaken.

Western ideals aren't perfect, not by a long shot. Until the West becomes a utopia, Westerns should not foist their beliefs unto others, as it's merely another form of imperialism.

Osiris wrote:
So as long as it oppresses heterosexuals too then that's OK? Only homosexuals can be oppressed?


When the law applies equally towards all, is the law oppressive? Of course not!
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
77H
Posts: 1461
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:53 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
If the Bruneians want Western ideals, let the Bruneians fight for it themselves. That would bring lasting change as opposed to change forced upon them by Western forces. This is merely another form of imperialism, and we're past imperialism.


- If the Brunei government repeatedly, intentionally does something totally immoral, we should boycott them.
- Killing people for being gay is totally immoral

- Apartheid was horrible
- We partially boycotted South Africa
- That was part of the reason South Africa changed

Do you disagree with any of these statements?


I disagree with everything.

First off Brunei isn't killing people for being gay. Brunei will try those who are caught having same sex intercourse, and they have a chance to prove their innocence. If proven innocent, they will be let free. Fact is you're not going to get stoned just for being gay unless you have sex in public, which serves you right for being stupid.

Secondly the change in Apartheid was driven from within. And the boycotts have at best a marginal impact on South Africa. To attribute the change solely to the boycotts is sorely mistaken.

Western ideals aren't perfect, not by a long shot. Until the West becomes a utopia, Westerns should not foist their beliefs unto others, as it's merely another form of imperialism.

Osiris wrote:
So as long as it oppresses heterosexuals too then that's OK? Only homosexuals can be oppressed?


When the law applies equally towards all, is the law oppressive? Of course not!


I would argue any immoral law is de facto oppressive.

At least in the US, a crime must have an “injured” party. There are people who are locked up, beaten or even killed everyday in the US over alleged crimes involving no true injured party. I bring this up only to say that sodemy laws or anti-LGBT laws are oppressive, because they are immoral because the law criminalizes acts that when engaged in by two consenting adults involves no true injured party. Because if the acts were not engaged in with consent of both parties.. they have laws against that too.

Which actually leads me to my next point. For those posters calling on governments to impose sanctions and the like... which countries do you propose do that ? Certainly not the US? Certainly not the US that assigns convicted rapists probation while allowing for the death penalty to a man allegedly selling loose cigarettes on a New York street in broad daylight. The US certainly has no standing on the moral high ground from which to pass judgment on other soverign nations. Without the big bully American muscle, which countries would stand in the face of not just Brunei but the Muslim World at large?

As for the US sanctions against SA and the apartheid government, I guess all’s well that ends well but I find it rich that the US would have the audacity to call out another country for race based oppressive government when racism is as American as Apple Pie.

77H
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 1849
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:10 am

77H wrote:
I would argue any immoral law is de facto oppressive.

At least in the US, a crime must have an “injured” party. There are people who are locked up, beaten or even killed everyday in the US over alleged crimes involving no true injured party. I bring this up only to say that sodemy laws or anti-LGBT laws are oppressive, because they are immoral because the law criminalizes acts that when engaged in by two consenting adults involves no true injured party. Because if the acts were not engaged in with consent of both parties.. they have laws against that too.


If the act is between two consenting adults in private, there would not be a need for anyone to make a report.

And therein lies the distinction that many people here miss - action is only taken if a report is made.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
bagoldex
Posts: 1027
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:33 pm

Re: Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:46 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Fact is you're not going to get stoned just for being gay unless you have sex in public, which serves you right for being stupid.


Nobody deserves to be killed for having sex, regardless of where it occurred. Such a vile and hateful person.
 
User avatar
kitplane01
Posts: 1350
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:58 am

Re: Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:38 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

- If the Brunei government repeatedly, intentionally does something totally immoral, we should boycott them.
- Killing people for being gay is totally immoral

- Apartheid was horrible
- We partially boycotted South Africa
- That was part of the reason South Africa changed

Do you disagree with any of these statements?


I disagree with everything.


Apartheid wasn't horrible? Never met anyone who argues that before. Not sure what to say.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Coal and 27 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos