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kitplane01
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Re: Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:41 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Western ideals aren't perfect, not by a long shot. Until the West becomes a utopia, Westerns should not foist their beliefs unto others, as it's merely another form of imperialism.


Or to rephrase, no one can judge anyone else. That seems false. Some people/institutions are clearly evil, and refusing to recognize that ...

For evil to win merely requires that good people remain silent.
 
alan3
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:16 pm

Pretty stunned speechless by some of the responses on here. Of course no country is perfect but we are not talking about outdated laws here still on the books but new laws that subjects same sex relations to death by stoning.

Brunei has the right to do what it wants, but so do we as consumers. That is the ENTIRE POINT of capitalism: you get to choose who gets your money. And Brunei doesn't deserve one red cent of it. There's a heck of a lot of choice out there in the airline industry.

As someone else said, there were boycotts of South Africa during Apartheid and boycotts of buses in the Deep South during the civil war era. But I guess how DARE the imperialist west tell South Africa how to run their own country, right?

And anyone saying that it's offensive or imperialist to criticize Brunei...I call BS on that. People are using that to excuse their own feelings toward homosexuality. It's 2019. There are basic values that are not acceptable anymore. Killing people for being gay is one of them.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 12:50 am

bagoldex wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Fact is you're not going to get stoned just for being gay unless you have sex in public, which serves you right for being stupid.


Nobody deserves to be killed for having sex, regardless of where it occurred. Such a vile and hateful person.


And there lies the problem with the West. When procreation is treated so nonchalantly, it's no wonder why things go wrong. No wonder you have problems with people who can't keep their peckers zipped, and people who can easily accuse others of rape just because they didn't like having sex with that person.

Your own backyard is hardly utopia, so why not tend to that first.

kitplane01 wrote:
Or to rephrase, no one can judge anyone else. That seems false. Some people/institutions are clearly evil, and refusing to recognize that ...

For evil to win merely requires that good people remain silent.


Who determines what's evil and what's good? If you want to talk about institutions that are clearly evil, then why aren't you making noises about several Western governments which have wreaked destruction throughout the world then?

alan3 wrote:
And anyone saying that it's offensive or imperialist to criticize Brunei...I call BS on that. People are using that to excuse their own feelings toward homosexuality. It's 2019. There are basic values that are not acceptable anymore. Killing people for being gay is one of them.


Total BS. It is imperialism. It's imperialism because those "basic" values are based on Western ideals that doesn't take into account religious & cultural differences.

Again, let Bruneians decide what they want. You pressure them, and pretty soon you'll turn them into extremists.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:29 am

In any case, I've had a look at the laws myself. Thing is - the law didn't explicitly say homosexuality is subject to death.

It says liwat, or sodomy, is illegal, it applies to heterosexual intercourse as well, and the only way the death penalty is to be applied is if you're married and either admitted to it under oath, or your act was witnessed by 4 witnesses of impeccable reputation. If none of the prerequisites are met, you'll only be given a number of lashes and a short prison sentence.

Also, for non-Muslims, this law only apply if you have sex with a Muslim. If the act is between two non-Muslim, this law doesn't apply.

As usual, the media is hyping this up in a way that distorts the reality.

http://www.agc.gov.bn/AGC%20Images/LAWS ... N/S069.pdf
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kitplane01
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:08 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
alan3 wrote:
And anyone saying that it's offensive or imperialist to criticize Brunei...I call BS on that. People are using that to excuse their own feelings toward homosexuality. It's 2019. There are basic values that are not acceptable anymore. Killing people for being gay is one of them.


Total BS. It is imperialism. It's imperialism because those "basic" values are based on Western ideals that doesn't take into account religious & cultural differences.

Again, let Bruneians decide what they want. You pressure them, and pretty soon you'll turn them into extremists.


It was wrong when South Africa had Apartheid. It was wrong when Cambodia had it's genocide. And it's wrong to kill people for being gay. These seem basic truths; true in any reasonable value system. My hope is that your "religious and cultural difference" does not include these immoral things.

It's good, when you see evil to say so.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:24 am

kitplane01 wrote:
It was wrong when South Africa had Apartheid. It was wrong when Cambodia had it's genocide. And it's wrong to kill people for being gay. These seem basic truths; true in any reasonable value system. My hope is that your "religious and cultural difference" does not include these immoral things.

It's good, when you see evil to say so.


Read the law. Nowhere did they say all gays are to be killed. Stop trying to equate this with Apartheid since it's very different.

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Thing is - the law didn't explicitly say homosexuality is subject to death.

It says liwat, or sodomy, is illegal, it applies to heterosexual intercourse as well, and the only way the death penalty is to be applied is if you're married and either admitted to it under oath, or your act was witnessed by 4 witnesses of impeccable reputation. If none of the prerequisites are met, you'll only be given a number of lashes and a short prison sentence.

Also, for non-Muslims, this law only apply if you have sex with a Muslim. If the act is between two non-Muslim, this law doesn't apply.

http://www.agc.gov.bn/AGC%20Images/LAWS ... N/S069.pdf


And since it's good to say so when you see evil, here's a tip - go to Israel and tell them to stop the attacks on Palestinians. Tell them to stop barricading them & stealing their lands. Is that not evil as well?
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LH658
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:44 am

Why aren't people avoiding EK, EY, QR, and MH? Doesn't those country have strict laws against lgbtq?
 
alan3
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:15 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Total BS. It is imperialism. It's imperialism because those "basic" values are based on Western ideals that doesn't take into account religious & cultural differences.

Again, let Bruneians decide what they want. You pressure them, and pretty soon you'll turn them into extremists.


"Let them decide?" That should be interesting. It's an absolute monarchy with no democracy and no free press.

People can attempt to deflect this with all the moral relativism and "whataboutism" they like but where do you draw the line. In Afghanistan during Taliban rule, women accused of adultery were buried up to their heads in stadiums and stoned to death. And during the ISIS caliphate there were countless hellish stories, including men encouraged to take kidnapped slaves. But hey, under your logic who are we to criticize?

The OP never called for us to invade Brunei and change their laws. But we sure as hell can boycott their airline.

Boycotting Royal Brunei and the hotels the Sultan owns is perfectly legitimate way of expressing our concern. It won't change the laws but if they want to do business in the west, that is our right as consumers not to give them our business.

That is the entire point of capitalism.
Last edited by alan3 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:32 am

alan3 wrote:
"Let them decide?" That should be interesting. It's an absolute monarchy with no democracy and no free press.


You do realize that in Brunei's history, there were rebellion attempts that were almost successful until the British intervened? Also throughout history many Sultanates with absolute power had been brought down by the people. So as if the monarch can't be brought down if the people wants to.


alan3 wrote:
People can attempt to deflect this with all the moral relativism and "whataboutism" they like. In Afghanistan during Taliban rule, women accused of adultery were buried to their heads in stadiums and stoned to death and in the ISIS caliphate, men captured Yazidi women as sex slaves. But hey, under your logic who are we to criticize?


The very fact that you're comparing the Kingdom of Brunei with the Taliban & ISIS clearly shows how unfit you are at criticizing them. Brunei is a sovereign nation, whereas the Taliban and ISIS are terrorist organizations.

alan3 wrote:
Boycotting Royal Brunei and the hotels the Sultan owns is perfectly legitimate way of expressing our concern. It won't change the laws but if they want to do business in the west, that is our right as consumers not to give them our business.

That is the entire point of capitalism.


You can boycott them if you like, but do make sure you also boycott other businesses with interests in other so-called "evil" nations. Failure to do so will merely display your own hypocrisy.

And I'm still free to call you all out for your hypocrisy.

In any case, read the laws. Nowhere did it ever advocate for the killing of gay people. That's the problem with SJWs who only get their information from distorted news reports.
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alan3
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:56 am

.
Last edited by alan3 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:06 am

alan3 wrote:
It's 2019. I am pinching myself to believe that we are actually having this discussion. And I am not going to entertain ridiculous twisted hair splitting logic about how this law technically doesn't punish gay people but only punishes gay people if they have sex. Frankly I could care less about your support for this regime or your views on laws like this.


And therein lies the problem. It's OK for you to foist your values unto others who are culturally different from you, but it's ridiculous for others to push back on your attempt at forcing your values down other people's throats.

Did you read the law fully or not? If you haven't go read it and it's clear. There's no hair splitting logic at all. You're trying to make it into something it is not and you're calling it ridiculous for me to explain the laws to the uninformed - like yourself?

alan3 wrote:
And hopefully, with all fingers crossed, these companies will be driven bankrupt into the ground.


I doubt it. After a few weeks this would have died down and people will continue on with their lives.

You can boycott all you like, but it's not going to put a dent in BI or the Sultan's hotel's coffers.

alan3 wrote:
I'm not wasting my time on this. It's too mind boggling that this is even up for discussion.


It should be up for discussion since you're trying to portray the laws as something they're not.
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vfw614
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Re: Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:44 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
77H wrote:
I would argue any immoral law is de facto oppressive.

At least in the US, a crime must have an “injured” party. There are people who are locked up, beaten or even killed everyday in the US over alleged crimes involving no true injured party. I bring this up only to say that sodemy laws or anti-LGBT laws are oppressive, because they are immoral because the law criminalizes acts that when engaged in by two consenting adults involves no true injured party. Because if the acts were not engaged in with consent of both parties.. they have laws against that too.


If the act is between two consenting adults in private, there would not be a need for anyone to make a report.

And therein lies the distinction that many people here miss - action is only taken if a report is made.


How about due process? From what I gather, that is not exactly sharia law's strong point, with stuff like women's testimony only counting half or producing four male witnesses making stuff up can end your life.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:44 am

vfw614 wrote:
How about due process? From what I gather, that is not exactly sharia law's strong point, with stuff like women's testimony only counting half or producing four male witnesses making stuff up can end your life.


That is in a despotic regime like the Taliban. Brunei is not a despotic regime. Also, if you make things up, when you get caught the punishment will transfer to you.

The Brunei laws make it clear that only if the prerequisites are met will the laws & its punishment applies. If even one of the prerequisites aren't met then an alternative, lighter version of the law & its punishment applies.

Yes, Shariah laws have been misused before, I'll admit. But I doubt it will be misused in Brunei. Bruneians aren't Third World citizens.
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vfw614
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:32 pm

Shouldn't sharia laws be the same everywhere, given that they are religious laws? The "law of evidence", if you want to call it like that, is based on sharia law, as far as I understand. Do you cherry-pick which part of the sharia law you apply and which not? If so, it pretty much flies in the face of the idea of a religious law (however absurd this law may be, I shall hasten to add), doesn't it?
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:24 pm

vfw614 wrote:
Shouldn't sharia laws be the same everywhere, given that they are religious laws? The "law of evidence", if you want to call it like that, is based on sharia law, as far as I understand. Do you cherry-pick which part of the sharia law you apply and which not? If so, it pretty much flies in the face of the idea of a religious law (however absurd this law may be, I shall hasten to add), doesn't it?


Just like civil laws, interpretation might differ, especially considering there are several schools of thoughts in Islam. While the basics are similar, certain aspects may differ.
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bagoldex
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:50 pm

LH658 wrote:
Why aren't people avoiding EK, EY, QR, and MH? Doesn't those country have strict laws against lgbtq?


I can't speak for anyone else but I won't step foot in nor fly any carrier associated with a country that has criminalized homosexuality and as much as possible I avoid patronizing businesses under the ownership of their state investment agencies, such as Dorchester Collection hotels.
 
DDR
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:38 pm

Just block TheFlyingDi**. I did and the forum is now a much better place.
 
vfw614
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:49 pm

Interesting to see that there are now calls to ban Royal Brunei operating to/from Australia. I guess that would pretty much put the 787 operation in question.
 
bagoldex
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:51 pm

DDR wrote:
Just block TheFlyingDi**. I did and the forum is now a much better place.


As foul as he and his ilk are it's important to know how the enemy thinks.
 
aerokiwi
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:19 am

The Queensland Government has axed its planned subsidy for Royal Brunei to fly to Brisbane: https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... a13912b201

Meanwhile, STA Travel is no longer booking on BI and refunding those who have been and want out. Virgin Australia has ended staff travel arrangements and I imagine Qantas will follow if they have them.

And the UN has declared the laws a gross violation of human rights.

Meanwhile, the sultan/dictator and his three wives...
 
jb1087xna
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Re: Royal Brunei

Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:02 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
How about due process? From what I gather, that is not exactly sharia law's strong point, with stuff like women's testimony only counting half or producing four male witnesses making stuff up can end your life.


That is in a despotic regime like the Taliban. Brunei is not a despotic regime. Also, if you make things up, when you get caught the punishment will transfer to you.

The Brunei laws make it clear that only if the prerequisites are met will the laws & its punishment applies. If even one of the prerequisites aren't met then an alternative, lighter version of the law & its punishment applies.

Yes, Shariah laws have been misused before, I'll admit. But I doubt it will be misused in Brunei. Bruneians aren't Third World citizens.


"Doubt" or the similar phrase of "hope not" aren't strong strategies. Don't know how stoning isn't considered "third world" either.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Effects of travelling on Royal Brunei

Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:49 pm

DDR wrote:
Just block TheFlyingDi**. I did and the forum is now a much better place.


Congratulations, you're saying you're perfectly happy to live in your own echo chamber.

bagoldex wrote:
As foul as he and his ilk are it's important to know how the enemy thinks.


You lot didn't even read the bloody laws properly, and decided arbitrarily that it is foul.

It's rather hypocritical that you folks are shoving shit down others throats, but get all upset when others push back. It's emblematic of the West's imperialistic behaviour that had been the scourge of this continent for centuries. You steal our wealth, you ruined our culture, and now you expect us to accept you with open arms?

jb1087xna wrote:
"Doubt" or the similar phrase of "hope not" aren't strong strategies. Don't know how stoning isn't considered "third world" either.


Take a look at Brunei's record of lawmaking & you'll see that they're far better at upholding the law than the Taliban and/or all the other despotic regimes out there.
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EChid
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Re: Royal Brunei

Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:55 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Osiris wrote:
So as long as it oppresses heterosexuals too then that's OK? Only homosexuals can be oppressed?


When the law applies equally towards all, is the law oppressive? Of course not!

Yikes. Some faulty reasoning here, unless you're being sarcastic. There are many many examples of laws that "apply equally towards all" in theory but exist purely to oppress one specific group. Recent voter ID law changes are a perfect example of that.
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