caliboy93
Topic Author
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:28 pm

Ticket refund for delays?

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:36 pm

So obviously delays are an inconvenience, sometimes for reasons out of the airline's control (weather, accidents, etc). Nevertheless, passengers have their time wasted and the flight time doesn't decrease after the delay ends. So is it fair to expect airlines to compensate the passengers by offering a partial refund for every hour of delay? For instance, a 5% fare refund for every hour can be fair.

I know this sounds ambitious but just wanted to hear all your thoughts.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2698
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:52 pm

I guess you haven’t heard of EU 261? Very similar idea in general.

Not quite partial refund, but rather compensations for the inconvenience.

P.S. Airlines hate delays in general just as much as pax.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7268
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:53 pm

If that were to happen, you would just end up paying more for airfare in the first place.
 
ilovelamp
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:45 am

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:54 pm

So you want to penalize airlines for things entirely out of their control? Makes absolutely no sense. Besides, the airlines would raise fares commensurate with any additional fees or penalties added for this so it wouldn’t have the effect that you think it will.


ILL
 
jbmitt
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 3:59 am

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:32 am

I had a weekend trip planned and UA had a delay followed by a cancellation of the flight. I would have ended up having 16 hours at my destination and the gate agents were kind enough to book me on the same flights the following weekend at no additional charge.

I also was rebooked in Y which made for a confirmed first class upgrade!
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1128
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:07 am

caliboy93 wrote:
So obviously delays are an inconvenience, sometimes for reasons out of the airline's control (weather, accidents, etc). Nevertheless, passengers have their time wasted and the flight time doesn't decrease after the delay ends. So is it fair to expect airlines to compensate the passengers by offering a partial refund for every hour of delay? For instance, a 5% fare refund for every hour can be fair.

I know this sounds ambitious but just wanted to hear all your thoughts.

When the delays is 100% within control of the airline (meaning, maintenance issue, crew issue, and the such), maybe.
However, when weather hit, there is nothing the airlines or the ATC can do; it's usually referred to, in the Contract of Carriage, as Act of God, and is excluded from compensation/penalties to airlines.

It is a major inconvenience to passengers; but it's a major disruption to airlines operation as well, and it might take days for them to fully recover.
 
User avatar
hhslax2
Posts: 143
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:16 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:13 am

jbmitt wrote:
I had a weekend trip planned and UA had a delay followed by a cancellation of the flight. I would have ended up having 16 hours at my destination and the gate agents were kind enough to book me on the same flights the following weekend at no additional charge.

I also was rebooked in Y which made for a confirmed first class upgrade!


You got lucky. I was supposed to fly from MIA to DFW in first yesterday (Friday) for the weekend. AA gave me the option around 1600 of flying Sunday morning in coach (with a layover in MCO) to spend 6 hours before flying home or just refunding my ticket.
 
barney captain
Posts: 2203
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:29 am

Be Careful what you wish for -

Just like the Tarmac Delay Program enacted by Congress - Delays mean fines.

So guess what the fallout is? Airlines just cancel the flight rather than risk a fine.

Congressional stupidity at its finest. "You MUST ensure safety - but if that causes a delay, we will penalize you!".
Southeast Of Disorder
 
SocalApproach
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:08 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:51 am

almost all delays can be blamed on weather or ATC "somehow". want more ticket flexibility? Purchase a refundable ticket
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:07 am

barney captain wrote:
Be Careful what you wish for -

Just like the Tarmac Delay Program enacted by Congress - Delays mean fines.

So guess what the fallout is? Airlines just cancel the flight rather than risk a fine.

Congressional stupidity at its finest. "You MUST ensure safety - but if that causes a delay, we will penalize you!".


Is there any evidence that EU 261 has degraded EU flight safety?

Cancellation is almost always preferable to suffering that was previously inflicted on pax by having them sit for hours on end aboard, not able to get off, with no reasonable services. It was absolutely the right regulatory move. I dealt with it just barely a week ago.

Personally I believe, North America's consumers would be well served by the EU's more pro-consumer stance.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:09 am

ilovelamp wrote:
So you want to penalize airlines for things entirely out of their control? Makes absolutely no sense. Besides, the airlines would raise fares commensurate with any additional fees or penalties added for this so it wouldn’t have the effect that you think it will.


ILL


so why are fares in the EU notably lower than in US/Canada?
If you say it's because of lower labor costs...... I'll only partially agree.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1128
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:20 am

FlyHappy wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Be Careful what you wish for -

Just like the Tarmac Delay Program enacted by Congress - Delays mean fines.

So guess what the fallout is? Airlines just cancel the flight rather than risk a fine.

Congressional stupidity at its finest. "You MUST ensure safety - but if that causes a delay, we will penalize you!".


Is there any evidence that EU 261 has degraded EU flight safety?

Cancellation is almost always preferable to suffering that was previously inflicted on pax by having them sit for hours on end aboard, not able to get off, with no reasonable services. It was absolutely the right regulatory move. I dealt with it just barely a week ago.

Personally I believe, North America's consumers would be well served by the EU's more pro-consumer stance.

I disagree on that one.

When a flight is cancelled, the vast majority of the pax has to be reaccomodated onto the remaining flights; and this is more and more a daunting task due to higher load factors.
So, delaying the flight until the issue is fixed or a replacement aircraft secured leads to greater overall customer satisfaction.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:38 am

WayexTDI wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Be Careful what you wish for -

Just like the Tarmac Delay Program enacted by Congress - Delays mean fines.

So guess what the fallout is? Airlines just cancel the flight rather than risk a fine.

Congressional stupidity at its finest. "You MUST ensure safety - but if that causes a delay, we will penalize you!".


Is there any evidence that EU 261 has degraded EU flight safety?

Cancellation is almost always preferable to suffering that was previously inflicted on pax by having them sit for hours on end aboard, not able to get off, with no reasonable services. It was absolutely the right regulatory move. I dealt with it just barely a week ago.

Personally I believe, North America's consumers would be well served by the EU's more pro-consumer stance.

I disagree on that one.

When a flight is cancelled, the vast majority of the pax has to be reaccomodated onto the remaining flights; and this is more and more a daunting task due to higher load factors.
So, delaying the flight until the issue is fixed or a replacement aircraft secured leads to greater overall customer satisfaction.


the issue isn't delay of the flight. Its delays while forcing pax to remain aboard. that is what the regulation addresses.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1128
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:57 am

FlyHappy wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

Is there any evidence that EU 261 has degraded EU flight safety?

Cancellation is almost always preferable to suffering that was previously inflicted on pax by having them sit for hours on end aboard, not able to get off, with no reasonable services. It was absolutely the right regulatory move. I dealt with it just barely a week ago.

Personally I believe, North America's consumers would be well served by the EU's more pro-consumer stance.

I disagree on that one.

When a flight is cancelled, the vast majority of the pax has to be reaccomodated onto the remaining flights; and this is more and more a daunting task due to higher load factors.
So, delaying the flight until the issue is fixed or a replacement aircraft secured leads to greater overall customer satisfaction.


the issue isn't delay of the flight. Its delays while forcing pax to remain aboard. that is what the regulation addresses.

There has been some examples of that; but it's extremely uncommon and now "protected" by the tarmac delay rules.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:04 am

WayexTDI wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
the issue isn't delay of the flight. Its delays while forcing pax to remain aboard. that is what the regulation addresses.

There has been some examples of that; but it's extremely uncommon and now "protected" by the tarmac delay rules.


I don't know what you're disagreeing with me about.
carriers can delay all they want, just not with pax captive aboard... you think that's a bad thing?

I experienced this not even a week ago, where we were unloaded pretty obviously due to desire to stay far away from tarmac delay fines. This allowed me to rebook via another city, as I would have 100% missed a connection had I not been allowed off - the flight was eventually reboarded, but far too late for me and presumably others (being a hub-to-hub flight).
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1128
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:59 am

FlyHappy wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
the issue isn't delay of the flight. Its delays while forcing pax to remain aboard. that is what the regulation addresses.

There has been some examples of that; but it's extremely uncommon and now "protected" by the tarmac delay rules.


I don't know what you're disagreeing with me about.
carriers can delay all they want, just not with pax captive aboard... you think that's a bad thing?

I experienced this not even a week ago, where we were unloaded pretty obviously due to desire to stay far away from tarmac delay fines. This allowed me to rebook via another city, as I would have 100% missed a connection had I not been allowed off - the flight was eventually reboarded, but far too late for me and presumably others (being a hub-to-hub flight).

Then I don't get what your beef is about.

US carriers cannot hold passengers for more than 3 or 4 hours without offering to disembark; how is that rule not customer-centric?

Also, we are in 2019, when most people have Facebook and/or Twitter and are too happy to report to the whole world the delays they are subjected to; to avoid that bad PR, airlines will do what they can to avoid that.

Lastly, aren't flight crews pays when the doors are closed? So, if the aircraft is stuck on the tarmac with the doors closed, the flight crew is paid while there is no real revenue; it's a negative revenue for the airline and they hate that.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:05 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Then I don't get what your beef is about.

US carriers cannot hold passengers for more than 3 or 4 hours without offering to disembark; how is that rule not customer-centric?


Go back and read the thread. I was responding to Barney Captains assertion that the tarmac delay rule is congressional stupidity and that it is responsible for greater flight cancellations.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1128
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:40 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Then I don't get what your beef is about.

US carriers cannot hold passengers for more than 3 or 4 hours without offering to disembark; how is that rule not customer-centric?


Go back and read the thread. I was responding to Barney Captains assertion that the tarmac delay rule is congressional stupidity and that it is responsible for greater flight cancellations.

I get that. And your post #10 said "[p]ersonally I believe, North America's consumers would be well served by the EU's more pro-consumer stance."
Unless I'm wrong, "would be" means it doesn't exist and it should.

US passengers are protected by the tarmac delay rule (that some find it stupid, it's their opinion); yet it appeared you stated that they are not protected by any rule and should be.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Ticket refund for delays?

Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:42 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Then I don't get what your beef is about.

US carriers cannot hold passengers for more than 3 or 4 hours without offering to disembark; how is that rule not customer-centric?


Go back and read the thread. I was responding to Barney Captains assertion that the tarmac delay rule is congressional stupidity and that it is responsible for greater flight cancellations.

I get that. And your post #10 said "[p]ersonally I believe, North America's consumers would be well served by the EU's more pro-consumer stance."
Unless I'm wrong, "would be" means it doesn't exist and it should.

US passengers are protected by the tarmac delay rule (that some find it stupid, it's their opinion); yet it appeared you stated that they are not protected by any rule and should be.


I am making two different, not completely related comments.

No where did I suggest that US pax "are not protected by any rule" ; I simply stated that EU consumers enjoy a "more pro-consumer stance", and that (IMO) US consumers would be well-served by similar measures (which is most relevant to the OP's ideas).

My overall point to challenge prior comments about "higher ticket prices" , being that EU carriers, FSC, LCC and otherwise, manage to still be profitable while being (forcibly) more accountable to pax, all while running thinner margins (lower fares).

Barney Captain seemed to shade in the idea that airline ops could be "less safe" with the comment: "You MUST ensure safety - but if that causes a delay, we will penalize you!", directly pointing at the enacted Tarmac Delay rule, to which I challenge: any evidence that EU carriers are less safe?

The only relationship these two things have is the idea that pro-consumer fines, apply $ pressures to airlines and that the net effect is 1) higher tix price and 2) less rigorous maintenance and other safety procedures.

#1 is complex, and true that EU vs US/Canada are different markets, but its still pretty clear that EU consumers typically fly more cheaply for comparable services. I also add that perhaps the US consumer should pay more in return for higher consideration.

#2 I have a problem with. If anything, it seems like corner cutting in MX has reared its ugly head in the US historically more than elsewhere, if anything. Not because of worker skill or labor issues; but more about the top-driven profit culture that pervades in the US. The idea that providing some relief to the paying customer would make something now safe, unsafe is questionable. The widespread stories we hear about pressures to dispatch and sign off (with virtually no consumer penalties in place now) suggest that "safety first" isn't really true.

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