SteelChair
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Wed May 01, 2019 11:23 pm

Imho the strength of the design was the rugged structure, like the DC3, 8, and 10. You can't wear them out, you can only break them.

The weakness was the systems, many of which were fixed on the 717.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Wed May 01, 2019 11:51 pm

As an engineer, I always look at anything from a design standpoint as to how well the design meets the design objectives. And with an airliner the first objective is safety, and the second is efficiency. As to safety, I know of no design problems with the DC-9 or its derivatives that have led to crashes, although its overall safety record is not as good as the 737 or the A320. But that is not necessarily a reflection on the design, as it may be a result of more usage in places and by airlines with poorer training and maintenance. Here are the statistics. http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm

As to efficiency it is not impressive. There is a reason why all current airliners feature two engines on the wing-it is by far the most efficient (and safest) arrangement. T-tails are subject to deep stall situations from which it is impossible to recover, although I have no reason to believe that that is in any way responsible for the poorer safety record of the DC-9 series. But Joe Sutter, when he was working on the original 737 design proved that by putting the engines under the wing, even with less efficient cowling than the 707 prodded design, he could add 12 seats for the same weight as it would be if he put the engines at the tail, as was the original intent (the 737 was intended to be essentially a two engined 727). And so Boeing has never again put the engines anywhere but under the wings, and other manufacturers have now followed suit. And while I appreciate the extraordinary durability of the Douglas planes, that also comes at a cost in extra weight. It would take intensive examination of actual maintenance and fuel costs to determine whether maintenance savings are enough to justify the extra weight. I tend to doubt it. The other area of question is longevity. There is no question that the DC-9 series can outlast rocks, but again the question is is it worth the weight that makes it possible. Again, I doubt it, since almost all planes get retired long before they are no longer airworthy due to age, but usually because new models are much more efficient.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Oliver2020
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Thu May 02, 2019 12:08 am

Traveling through ATL over the years, I'm fortunate to have flown all 3 types. Personally I like the taxi sound of the p&w jtds engines, the spool up and take off sound of engines on the MD 88's and retired Dc9-50's. Another thing I always enjoyed was NW using the reverse thrust pushback in Memphis.
 
beechnut
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Thu May 02, 2019 1:04 am

I'm a BIG DC-9 fan. In the my working days I flew across Canada on business, and I probably have nearly as much DC-9 time (and other AC and CP types) as I put on my old Beech Sundowner. Maybe more. First flight on one (my second ever airplane ride at age 11) was in 1969. Noisy in the back but very quiet up front, and I always loved sitting on the 2-seat side. Never flown on a DC-9 variant later than the MD-83 on AA.

Beech
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Thu May 02, 2019 1:31 am

Does DL allow pilots to do power backs with the 717's? I've seen Air Tran do them with the 717, but have never seen or heard DL do them.
712 722 732 734 737 738 741 742 744 752 762 772 A310 DC91 DC93 DC94 DC1030 DC1040 F100 MD82 MD83
 
bradyj23
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Thu May 02, 2019 3:43 am

bravoindia wrote:
N776AU wrote:
I quite enjoy the 717. It's a little rocket ship, and the way Delta has them set up is quite nice. They're very comfortable.

MD-90 I'll only fly if necessary. Plenty of better narrow body options out there.

MD-80s I will avoid at all costs. Their time has come and gone. 3 of my last 4 MD-80 flights with Delta have had mechanical issues. I swear those things are falling apart.


Define rocket ship? I’m not being rude I’m just saying as a controller at Atlanta Tracon working them everyday the descents are great but climbing and speeding up above 10000’ they are among the worst.


On rotation you pitch way up(20ish degrees)at a much higher rate than most planes. That’s where it feels like a rocket ship. Once you are cleaned up they all feel the same. And the 717 is slow to accelerate. But on rotation it still makes me smile like nothing else.
 
bradyj23
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Thu May 02, 2019 3:43 am

EstherLouise wrote:
Does DL allow pilots to do power backs with the 717's? I've seen Air Tran do them with the 717, but have never seen or heard DL do them.


No
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Thu May 02, 2019 5:34 am

EstherLouise wrote:
Does DL allow pilots to do power backs with the 717's? I've seen Air Tran do them with the 717, but have never seen or heard DL do them.


DL never did powerbacks, AFAIK. Nor did AS.

AA, NW, and FL were the domestic airlines that did powerbacks in recent times. All stopped in 2005-2006.
 
slcguy
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Thu May 02, 2019 12:10 pm

Not really contributing anything that hasn't been posted in threads about noise before just want to summarize them a little.
Having flown on DC9-10/30, MD80, MD90, yes they are loud if you are at the back of the cabin due to engines being mounted so close, seems obvious. Same applied to the B727. If seated from the wing forward they are very quiet (much more quiet than any wing mounted jet). If in F class on a MD90 your first clue the engines are running is when the aircraft starts moving without the pushback tug. Some people complain about various noises (hiss, buzz. clunks and whines etc.) in the forward cabin on these rear engine jets. This is wind noise at speed, ventilation and hydraulic systems. These are noises present on most jet aircraft, they are just drowned out by engine noise on most wing mounted aircraft.

Personal note:
Loudest,:DC9-10 seated in last row with engines rpm out of sync, what a throbbing sound.
Quietest: MD90 in forward section, just a whooshing sound and slight hum from the back.
 
Max Q
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Thu May 02, 2019 12:51 pm

a320fan wrote:
DALMD80 wrote:
a320fan wrote:
The windows leak

And you don't have pressurization issues?

Never flown in one, but I’ve seen the issue talked about multiple times in forum threads and YouTube videos. Found this on another forum after a quick google to try and verify my memory.
Image



That’s my quote A32F and an accurate one.
By the way all MD jet windows leak in the rain, from the DC8 to the MD11, never understood how they couldn’t figure out how to fix that, OTOH pressurization leaks
were rare compared to Boeing’s


I guess they were better at not letting air out than they were at preventing water (and Glycol) from coming in
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society
 
DALMD80
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Thu May 02, 2019 1:16 pm

Huh. Odd.
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Thu May 02, 2019 7:42 pm

The pressurization system can easily keep up with the sort of tiny leak that would allow a bit of rain into the pilots' laps. It's the same sort of leak that used to result in the disgusting tar/nicotine streaks all over the outside of aircraft back when stinky death tubes were allowed on board.
 
speedbird52
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Fri May 03, 2019 3:15 am

DALMD80 wrote:
MD80Ttail wrote:
I love the DC9 / Super 80s......my career will soon end the same time as they are retired. Too old for another type. Every plane has “idiosyncrasies”. I challenge anyone to name a plane that doesn’t have some. The series flys very well and I consider it a pilot’s plane.

Yeah. I'm 13. Hoping to fly MDs for DL, but that's... less than realistic.

Similar issue with 18 year old me wanting to fly 747s one day. Oh well, flying is flying no matter what airplane
 
DALMD80
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Fri May 03, 2019 1:09 pm

Yeah. YOU can still fly for Kalitta or something.
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
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Veigar
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Sat May 04, 2019 1:53 am

I had the privilege of hopping aboard N501AA a month ago, American's sole MD-82 left. I fell asleep in the seat right next to the engines.. it didn't seem that loud to me, and the seats were super comfortable..

loved it
 
DALMD80
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Mon May 06, 2019 1:46 pm

seabosdca wrote:
The pressurization system can easily keep up with the sort of tiny leak that would allow a bit of rain into the pilots' laps. It's the same sort of leak that used to result in the disgusting tar/nicotine streaks all over the outside of aircraft back when stinky death tubes were allowed on board.

Tar/nicotine? Ew. Cool that the pressurization can keep up though.
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
DALMD80
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Mon May 06, 2019 1:47 pm

Veigar wrote:
I had the privilege of hopping aboard N501AA a month ago, American's sole MD-82 left. I fell asleep in the seat right next to the engines.. it didn't seem that loud to me, and the seats were super comfortable..

loved it

Wow. Did they put the new livery on the Mad Dogs or just keep the silver?
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
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res77W
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Mon May 06, 2019 6:13 pm

DALMD80 wrote:
Veigar wrote:
I had the privilege of hopping aboard N501AA a month ago, American's sole MD-82 left. I fell asleep in the seat right next to the engines.. it didn't seem that loud to me, and the seats were super comfortable..

loved it

Wow. Did they put the new livery on the Mad Dogs or just keep the silver?


No maddog made it into the new livery. It would have been cool to see one, but now as retirement looms, I'm glad they made the decision to keep them silver.

-Rowen
 
DALMD80
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Mon May 06, 2019 9:15 pm

Would have been SO cool.
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
LMP737
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Wed May 08, 2019 10:09 pm

Having spent thirteen years working on the MD-80, almost two years on the MD-90 and brief exposure on the 717 in Long Beach I'll throw my two cents in.

MD-80 simply put is workhorse. True, it doesn't have all the bells and whistles that the A320 or 737NG has. Heck the most sophisticated thing on it is the weather radar. On the other hand its simplicity made it the work horse that it is, gas-n-go.
The biggest headache on it was usually the anti-ice system. Spent many a nights troubleshooting it, usually outside in the cold. Another issue was the APU ingesting skydrol and having it end up in the ACM. That was always fun. Working in the tailcone was always a pain because it was packed with AC packs and pneumatic ducting.

The MD-90 is another one of those what might have been airplanes. MD really dropped the ball on this one. The electrical system was an absolute nightmare. Variable Speed Constant Frequency is a great idea. But only if you make a system doesn't latch onto every little fault that it see's. I remember a couple times having to power down the entire aircraft at the gate, fun. The anti-ice system was better than on the 80 I'll give them that. The V2500 and new APU were an improvement. Overall though the 80 is the better aircraft. And would it have killed them to put a new wing on it?!
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Fri May 10, 2019 11:13 pm

UA735WL wrote:

They apparently also were prone to cold soaked fuel causing ice to form on the wings, requiring an ice inspection to be performed during the turnaround regardless of if you were in El Paso or Minneapolis. I believe the "Alternate" fuel burn schedule (entered in the FMC during preflight) somewhat obviated this issue.

s


The MD-80's I worked on had heater blankets installed on top of the wings forward of the engine so it was not an issue. As long as the blankets worked that it is.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
TSS
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Mon May 13, 2019 7:42 am

indcwby wrote:
I fly Delta a ton for work and always enjoy my 717/MD88/MD90 flights. For some reason and probably more mental, I feel they handle turbulence better than the 737/A319/A320/A321s if they had to fly the same leg. Plus, I've had better luck getting 717 pilots to do high power static takeoffs! :D

According to old threads on the subject of 717/MD80/MD90s being more resistant to turbulence than other types, you're not imagining things: They have higher wing loads than 737s and A320s which makes them less likely to get bounced around in choppy air.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
NWAJT8D
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Sat May 18, 2019 10:32 pm

The DC-9 family is by far my favorite aircraft type. My very first flight in fact was on a TWA DC-9-30 in 1997, and since then I've flown on lots of NW and DL DC-9s, Delta and AA MD-80s, Delta MD-90s and 717s. As of now, I have flown on the MD-80 far more than any other type. And every single ride is a joyful, adrenaline-pumping thrill. I'm also thankful to see them every day, as we get multiple AA and DL MD-80s daily in DSM.

In the 2011-2014 retirement era for Delta's DC-9s I took day trips to ride on as many as I could, and I'm glad I did. I'll never forget the THRUM THRUM THRUM of sitting next to the engines in the magical rows 23 and 24. I never got over the feeling of riding on such an old, powerful, and beautiful plane that was still chugging along in this decade. And I've missed them terribly since they left the fleet.

Now, I enjoy the MD-80s as much as I can. In the few years I worked for Delta, I racked up a few dozen flights on the 88s and 90s knowing their time was short. Last year I experienced Allegiant's final MD-80 flight, which was not well-publicized but emotional nonetheless, given the importance of the MD-80 in their history. This year I've been flying on American's MD-80s and I very much plan to be on the last flight, whenever and wherever that may be. Next year I will be flying Delta's before they go, by the end of the year.

The DC-9/MD-80 family has always been what makes aviation magical, especially in this day and age where far less exciting aircraft dominate the industry. Let's enjoy them as much as we can before they're entirely gone, as that day will be very heartbreaking indeed.
 
DALMD80
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Re: MD88/MD90/B712 Love/Hate Relationship

Sun May 19, 2019 10:57 pm

YES! The skies will be much more boring with aircraft that look very similar.
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.

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