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seahawk
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 12:12 pm

Well, you could offer a priority luggage service for them.
 
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keesje
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 12:18 pm

I think guidelines & rules on hand luggage are clear to every one.

Certainly during an emergency you don't want to obstruct anything.

Imagine you are at a foreign country and you just lost all your ID's, you have no access to money, mail, contact numbers, family, insurance info, clothes, food, drinks anything and you can not contact anybody. You are totally in the dark and dependent on others during a chaos.

A situation people instinctively want to avoid by grabbing their luggage I guess.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ethernal
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 12:31 pm

I've been a lurker here for years. I've sometimes felt motivated to post but never gone through the motions of registering. Up until now. Because airliners.net has clearly gone absolutely insane on this topic.

There's usually at least a few voices of reason on controversial topics, but it appears that this thread is somehow unanimous that there is a problem. I guess my only question is.. does anyone here actually fly? Like multiple times a week? Or do you just admire planes from afar and take a few vacations every now and again?

We're literally sitting here trying to solve a virtually non-existent problem. I am not trying to discount the tragedy of the Aeroflot flight. It is enraging to see someone carrying a rollaboard bag down the evacuation slide. Is it possible that, tragically, an extra couple of people lost their lives because of that person? Yes, it is possible. And it is tragic. But let's be clear - people would have died regardless in that crash. Even if everyone evacuated perfectly, there is almost no way that the back of that plane was survivable with two front door exits working with minimal fire suppression services during a massive fireball in a smoke-filled cabin.

But let's keep things into proportion. Air travel is incredibly safe. Even taking a worst case estimate, I doubt that posters on this forum could assert with any reasoned logic that carry-ons in commercial aircraft incidents have caused more than a dozen or two deaths over the course of the past decade or two.

This notion of banning carry-ons is an absolute crazy overreaction to this tragedy. Carry-ons are an essential part of air travel. Checking baggage sucks. Checked bags get lost, damaged, delayed, or even on their best days leave you waiting at the carousel wasting your time.

I have not checked a bag in at least five years despite over a million butt-in-seat miles during that time. Why? Because I used to check bags more regularly, and when you fly as much as I do, crap happens. My bags got delayed numerous times. One time it was lost for 6 months. Even if the carrier doesn't lose your bags, they are a mess during IRROPS. Want to try to take a different flight? Sure, there's a seat, but don't expect your bag to be there when you land. Wait, you have a meeting tomorrow morning? Too bad, hope you're wearing something presentable now because no stores are open when you land and your meeting is at 7 AM.

If you want to charge for carry-on bags, fine. I'll pay that fee any day of the week to avoid the stress of worrying about your bag or worrying about getting to the airport after the bag check-in limit. But this absurd authoritarian notion of banning carry-on bags - a staple of modern commercial aviation for at least the last 50 years - because of a couple of tragic accidents where maybe, just possibly a few people died because of them (as a secondary factor of course, not because they caused the crash directly) - is logically inconsistent with any rational analysis of drivers behind airline safety.

You could point to any number of safety factors and considerations more critical than banning carry-on bags that would cost less and waste less time of billions of passengers a year. Let's start with those first.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 12:39 pm

This is one of the most kneejerkiest threads I've seen on a.net. The angry mob is literally comparing carry-on bags to gun violence...smh. I'll be the lone dissenter.

I travel weekly and 99% of the time only with carry on bag and laptop bag. I'd have no problem leaving them in a crash although the chances of that are so low it's hardly worth thinking about. Don't penalize everybody for the actions of a few morons in an EXTREMELY rare situation (i.e. a plane crash). What's next for the angry mob...Outlaw persons with lesser mobility because they might slow YOU down in an emergency? Stop being so selfish.

Thankfully (most) airlines are smarter than message board posters. They'd lose a lot of their FFs if they made everyone check everything for free. Not to mention billions in lost revenue and a ton of added cost to staff up the ramp. Many airlines would go bankrupt and others would raise fares by 25-40%. Hardly a reasonable solution to a problem that has less than a 0.000000000000001% chance of happening (+/- some zeros?).
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
ferminbrif
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 12:54 pm

The main and/or disgusting issue regarding “hand luggage” is that it´s supposed to be only one piece (1) per pax. Nevertheless, a lot of pax carry on 1+1+1 etc … that’s to say several hand luggage.
It should be, strictly one piece.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 12:57 pm

ferminbrif wrote:
The main and/or disgusting issue regarding “hand luggage” is that it´s supposed to be only one piece (1) per pax. Nevertheless, a lot of pax carry on 1+1+1 etc … that’s to say several hand luggage.
It should be, strictly one piece.


Actually in the U.S. it's two pieces (because they announce it continuously). Carry on + personal item (i.e. purse, laptop bags, etc.) If you have medical equipment (i.e. a CPAP or a cane or something) it does not count towards that allotment.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
CobaltScar
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:31 pm

How are boarding times on Southwest, the last airline to allow free checked bags? I think a lot of people would still want to bring 1+1 with them so to avoid a trip to baggage claim. Free personal item, free first checked bag, and charging to bring on a additional larger bag would be the best way to go, but all the airlines would have to collude and implement this at once.
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:35 pm

ELBOB wrote:
So they can sprint off to the hotel whilst the plebs who pay their wages are stuck at the carousel.


While that's certainly a side effect, the actual reason is probably more so that they can sprint off to their next flight as soon as the plane is deboarded without holding everyone on the next flight up.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:35 pm

one possibility is to make it known that in event of an evacuation any bags wrongly carried will be confiscated immediately, and return not guaranteed.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:36 pm

777Jet wrote:
Regardless, I know I wouldn't go for the bin even if I had something in it...

You know this based on...what, exactly? Your extensive experience in having to evacuate a plane in an emergency?

You can boast and bloviate all you want, but the reality is that you never know how you'll respond in situations such as these until you're in them. Maybe you'll respond as you claim you will, but then again maybe you won't. You don't and can't know absent having had to do it before. And even them, how you responded once doesn't necessarily mean that that's how you'll respond the next time (god forbid).
Last edited by BerenErchamion on Mon May 06, 2019 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
TW870
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:37 pm

Aeroflot 1492 shows how important this issue is. You had an aggressive fire, two exits blocked, and presumably everyone alive on touchdown. 90 seconds later, half the people were dead.

There are two issues here. The first is the carry-on problem which has clearly aroused many ideas and emotions in this thread. But the second and equally important issue is cabin density and exit certification. Now that we are having a day of reckoning about the relationships between the manufacturers and the regulators in the wake of the 737MAX crisis, I think it is time to reconsider what the airlines are being allowed to do on their exits. On the newest Delta A321 configuration, for example, there are now going to be seats in front of both 2L/R and 3L/R. Only the furthest forward and aft exits have full egress in a fuselage that is nearly as long as a 757. For older people, those with limited mobility, larger people, etc, squeezing in front of those seats to get to the exit takes much more time than jumping into a slide at an exit with full egress. Similarly, on the 737-900ER, Delta, United, and others were allowed to block off the hatrack doors, and thus there is no egress between the overwing exits and aft exits. This is not specific to any carrier or even national context, as all the regulators have signed off on this. The new A321nx is, of course, losing its doors forward of the wings to shoehorn in more seats. Forcing the airlines to remove seats in front of exit doors would be one sane, doable way to improve this situation.
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:37 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
one possibility is to make it known that in event of an evacuation any bags wrongly carried will be confiscated immediately, and return not guaranteed.


What good will that do, in terms of actually changing behavior? Panicked people aren't going to be thinking about the consequences of their panicking while they're panicking.
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:41 pm

77H wrote:
3) Another solution would be to pass laws regarding the removal of luggage during an emergency. For example, allow for manslaughter or negligent homicide charges to be brought against passengers found to have removed luggage if there is loss of life. While harsh, it would be an effective deterrent.


Of course it will, because people who are panicking are world-renowned for their ability to consider the future consequences of their panic while they're panicking.
 
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FabDiva
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:43 pm

MalcolmInTheMoM wrote:
Carry on baggage wouldn't be such a problem in evacuations if the safety demonstration included a line about leaving all objects behind.


Easyjet certainly include that.
 
chonetsao
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:44 pm

TW870 wrote:
Aeroflot 1492 shows how important this issue is. You had an aggressive fire, two exits blocked, and presumably everyone alive on touchdown. 90 seconds later, half the people were dead.

There are two issues here. The first is the carry-on problem which has clearly aroused many ideas and emotions in this thread. But the second and equally important issue is cabin density and exit certification. Now that we are having a day of reckoning about the relationships between the manufacturers and the regulators in the wake of the 737MAX crisis, I think it is time to reconsider what the airlines are being allowed to do on their exits. On the newest Delta A321 configuration, for example, there are now going to be seats in front of both 2L/R and 3L/R. Only the furthest forward and aft exits have full egress in a fuselage that is nearly as long as a 757. For older people, those with limited mobility, larger people, etc, squeezing in front of those seats to get to the exit takes much more time than jumping into a slide at an exit with full egress. Similarly, on the 737-900ER, Delta, United, and others were allowed to block off the hatrack doors, and thus there is no egress between the overwing exits and aft exits. This is not specific to any carrier or even national context, as all the regulators have signed off on this. The new A321nx is, of course, losing its doors forward of the wings to shoehorn in more seats. Forcing the airlines to remove seats in front of exit doors would be one sane, doable way to improve this situation.


Yes that is very true.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:44 pm

I find really interesting that everybody is complaining about people taking their belongings with them during an emergency evacuation, but everybody seems to be OK with the aisle that has to evacuate 5 pax per row being 43cm wide at knee height.
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
chonetsao
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:47 pm

ethernal wrote:
There's usually at least a few voices of reason on controversial topics, but it appears that this thread is somehow unanimous that there is a problem. I guess my only question is.. does anyone here actually fly? Like multiple times a week? Or do you just admire planes from afar and take a few vacations every now and again?.


If something or some policy caused death in an accident, it is worth to be looked at and researched, regardless how often it happens. Ask the people who suffered tragic death in Manchester, in Shenzhen and in Moscow. Safety issue is not about the frequency, but about how to prevent it happening again.
 
Kno
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:55 pm

ethernal wrote:
I've been a lurker here for years. I've sometimes felt motivated to post but never gone through the motions of registering. Up until now. Because airliners.net has clearly gone absolutely insane on this topic.

There's usually at least a few voices of reason on controversial topics, but it appears that this thread is somehow unanimous that there is a problem. I guess my only question is.. does anyone here actually fly? Like multiple times a week? Or do you just admire planes from afar and take a few vacations every now and again?

We're literally sitting here trying to solve a virtually non-existent problem. I am not trying to discount the tragedy of the Aeroflot flight. It is enraging to see someone carrying a rollaboard bag down the evacuation slide. Is it possible that, tragically, an extra couple of people lost their lives because of that person? Yes, it is possible. And it is tragic. But let's be clear - people would have died regardless in that crash. Even if everyone evacuated perfectly, there is almost no way that the back of that plane was survivable with two front door exits working with minimal fire suppression services during a massive fireball in a smoke-filled cabin.

But let's keep things into proportion. Air travel is incredibly safe. Even taking a worst case estimate, I doubt that posters on this forum could assert with any reasoned logic that carry-ons in commercial aircraft incidents have caused more than a dozen or two deaths over the course of the past decade or two.

This notion of banning carry-ons is an absolute crazy overreaction to this tragedy. Carry-ons are an essential part of air travel. Checking baggage sucks. Checked bags get lost, damaged, delayed, or even on their best days leave you waiting at the carousel wasting your time.

I have not checked a bag in at least five years despite over a million butt-in-seat miles during that time. Why? Because I used to check bags more regularly, and when you fly as much as I do, crap happens. My bags got delayed numerous times. One time it was lost for 6 months. Even if the carrier doesn't lose your bags, they are a mess during IRROPS. Want to try to take a different flight? Sure, there's a seat, but don't expect your bag to be there when you land. Wait, you have a meeting tomorrow morning? Too bad, hope you're wearing something presentable now because no stores are open when you land and your meeting is at 7 AM.

If you want to charge for carry-on bags, fine. I'll pay that fee any day of the week to avoid the stress of worrying about your bag or worrying about getting to the airport after the bag check-in limit. But this absurd authoritarian notion of banning carry-on bags - a staple of modern commercial aviation for at least the last 50 years - because of a couple of tragic accidents where maybe, just possibly a few people died because of them (as a secondary factor of course, not because they caused the crash directly) - is logically inconsistent with any rational analysis of drivers behind airline safety.

You could point to any number of safety factors and considerations more critical than banning carry-on bags that would cost less and waste less time of billions of passengers a year. Let's start with those first.



RDUDDJI wrote:
This is one of the most kneejerkiest threads I've seen on a.net. The angry mob is literally comparing carry on bags to gun violence...smh. I'll be the lone dissenter.

I travel weekly and 99% of the time only with carry on bag and laptop bag. I'd have no problem leaving them in a crash although the chances of that are so low it's hardly worth thinking about. Don't penalize everybody for the actions of a few morons in an EXTREMELY rare situation (i.e. a plane crash). What's next for the angry mob...Outlaw persons with lesser mobility because they might slow YOU down in an emergency? Stop being so selfish.

Thankfully (most) airlines are smarter than message board posters. They'd lose a lot of their FFs if they made everyone check everything for free. Not to mention billions in lost revenue and a ton of added cost to staff up the ramp. Many airlines would go bankrupt and others would raise fares by 25-40%. Hardly a reasonable solution to a problem that has less than a 0.000000000000001% chance of happening (+/- some zeros?).


Thank you both! Aside from a couple of exceptions my mind was going completely numb reading post after post of idiocracy.

The vast majority of people in this thread are suggesting we should constantly inconvenience tens of millions of people because of extremely rare instances of one or two dozen people making bad safety decisions.

One guy actually suggested we do away with overhead bins - seriously?

So many of you hate carry on luggage with a passion - I see a lot of complaints about it slowing down boarding and deplaning. Let’s get real for a moment, on a full flight, worst case scenario, this might add 2-5mins of inconvenience. Have any of you actually checked a bag? There is virtually no scenario where it won’t add an additional 10-30 minutes of inconvenience. I see a mountain being made of a mole hill in this thread with completely irrational suggestions to solve it.

I read one potentially good suggestion in this thread, having an auto lock feature for the bins in an emergency situation.
 
kavok
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 1:56 pm

Education is not going to solve it either. Sure, you can have a line in the preflight safety announcement to leave carry-on luggage behind, but in reality people are just going to forget/ignore it anyway.

The odds that even a “million-miler flyer” will ever be in a situation where they have to evacuate quickly like this are so remote, that to be blunt, it isnt worth the effort or time to train the passenger. Sure, train the flight crew to instruct passengers to leave it behind, but passengers on airplanes are hearded cattle in more ways than one.
 
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WildcatYXU
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 2:00 pm

ethernal wrote:
There's usually at least a few voices of reason on controversial topics, but it appears that this thread is somehow unanimous that there is a problem. I guess my only question is.. does anyone here actually fly? Like multiple times a week? Or do you just admire planes from afar and take a few vacations every now and again?


Believe it or not, some of us do (or at least in my case, did). But guess what, some of the travelers are doing hands - on work at destination. So they have to carry tools. I was one of those, so I always had to check luggage. Therefore my personal stuff was traveling in the hold as well. I was only taking a small briefcase containing a small laptop, a book and headphones+phone accessories aboard. So when boarding, I pulled the book and the headset from the briefcase, slid the briefcase under the seat in front of me, sat down and then watched in amusement all those road warriors trying to find space for their carry-on's that were larger than my tool and spare part cases down in the hold.
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BerenErchamion
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 2:03 pm

Kno wrote:
[quote="ethernal"
I read one potentially good suggestion in this thread, having an auto lock feature for the bins in an emergency situation.


You'd need data on whether or not people would spend longer trying to open it up before they give up than it would take to just get their luggage out, and it'd be interesting to see how the engineers would go about gathering that data.
 
Aither
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 2:09 pm

I think sometime it's good to look at the big picture.

Is it worth to annoy millions of travelers who take planes every day like a bus and for who carry on luggage is a must ?
This would save maybe 50 lives every 5 years. A live is a live but...

Think that among these millions of travelers you have surgeons who need to reach quickly an hospital. Think about less aviation activity means higher unemployment rates meaning more suicides, meaning people getting poorer to help other people. Etc.

I understand that with my reasoning we should also remove life vests : after all the weight of life vests is making aircraft burn x billions tons of kerosen more making the additional pollution kill y people every year...Life vests are maybe killing more people than they save.
Last edited by Aither on Mon May 06, 2019 2:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Never trust the obvious
 
Blankbarcode
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 2:10 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Geoff1947 wrote:
The industry has got itself into a crazy situation with their pricing model being wrong.

:checkmark: :checkmark:

The cargo bays are designed for the everything-but-kitchen-sink luggage regimens... the carryon bins are not.

I've always said it was crazy to charge for 1st-bag, but have carryon free.
Barring essentials (medication, baby food, etc) it should've been the other way around.


Very much agree! And now airlines are trying to capitalize on both, neglecting to mention this is a hole they've dug themselves in.
 
Elementalism
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 2:14 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
The US has mass shootings and gun violence all day everyday. Crash landings are very rare, yet here we are discussing banning hand luggage after a single Incident. I’m not sure I want to live on a planet where people are trusted with guns, but not a bag.


It is interesting you bring this up. Mass shootings are very rare in the United States. General gun violence is still rare but a lot more prevalent than mass shootings. What are proposed gun laws trying to eliminate in the United States? The extremely rare mass shooting.

It seems to be human nature to try to eliminate the rare event vs stuff that happens every day. I suspect it is due to their more random nature that scares people.
 
ethernal
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 2:16 pm

chonetsao wrote:
ethernal wrote:
There's usually at least a few voices of reason on controversial topics, but it appears that this thread is somehow unanimous that there is a problem. I guess my only question is.. does anyone here actually fly? Like multiple times a week? Or do you just admire planes from afar and take a few vacations every now and again?.


If something or some policy caused death in an accident, it is worth to be looked at and researched, regardless how often it happens. Ask the people who suffered tragic death in Manchester, in Shenzhen and in Moscow. Safety issue is not about the frequency, but about how to prevent it happening again.


I am certainly not against researching and getting a quantified estimate of harm, but you are wrong. Safety is most definitely about frequency. Take ETOPS, for example. ETOPS is merely a certification that basically says "it is statistically unlikely for a plane to suffer a dual engine failure and result in a crash." This is true for any plane safety-critical system. Safety analysis is about identifying the most likely causes of failure, quantifying them, and getting failure probabilities down to an acceptable level of risk.

In aviation, that acceptable level of risk is very, very small. But it is not zero. The notion of a truly "zero-death" safety target is that it is both infeasible as well as leads to absurd outcomes. For example, the same logic being used to ban carry-ons here could be extended to baggage entirely. Baggage is a risk vector for terrorism (or hazardous material, e.g., lithium ion batteries); therefore, all baggage should be banned from flying on a plane. You can ship it either via a dedicated cargo carrying plane or via a ground transportation service. Just ship it early enough to make it there before you land and it's all good, right? Passengers should be required to fly naked and be subject to cavity searches as well - to ensure that no weapons or explosives are hidden on their body and/or within their orifices.

It is good that aviation constantly strives to make air travel safer. Aviation safety - despite the recent tragedies with the MAX plane for example - is a remarkable success story. Every part of the modern aviation system - from the plane design, to the supply chain, to the maintenance, to the people that fly them - are subservient to a system of safety analysis that tries to quantify and mitigate risk as much as practical. While some of it is due to simple statistical luck, one of the most awe-inspiring statistics I can imagine is the lack a major air disaster in commercial passenger service in the United States over the past 10 years. That's 300 million flights with no major multi-fatality hull-loss accidents. 300 million times where that system of safety worked.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately?), airlines have become so safe that we are starting to niggle around the edges. This is an example of that.

That said, I am not saying we can pat ourselves on the back and say we've solved air safety. We haven't. There are real problems out there, and we must be diligent to even maintain the level of safety today, and work even that much harder to make it safer.

But improvements in safety - especially at this point - should not come at a cost of significant passenger convenience or at significant incremental passenger cost. The reason is that the cost-benefit simply isn't there. Billions upon billions of passengers fly on airplanes every year; increasing the cost or time it takes them to fly must be part of the safety equation and the trade-off assessment.

To put things into perspective, over 4 billion people flew last year. The average person lives about 40 million minutes. This means that if you make a change that makes it take an extra minute to fly for each passenger, you have used a hundred lifetimes of time. That is not to say that in aggregate a billion people losing a minute of their time is the same as the untimely loss of someone, but my point is that there are tradeoffs. And that time represents economic potential for productivity that could be invested in other things that save lives: better healthcare, improve roads, pollution controls, and so on.

My point is that frequency matters, and trade-offs matter. Safety is about understanding tradeoffs, risks, and making a good judgement about what makes sense and what doesn't. Banning carry-ons because of their potential misuse in an accident is not a good tradeoff.
 
TW870
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 2:18 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
Kno wrote:
[quote="ethernal"
I read one potentially good suggestion in this thread, having an auto lock feature for the bins in an emergency situation.


You'd need data on whether or not people would spend longer trying to open it up before they give up than it would take to just get their luggage out, and it'd be interesting to see how the engineers would go about gathering that data.


I cannot imagine the locked bins working, as the confusion over the locking mechanism would likely slow the evacuation down not speed it up. As a former flight attendant, I can tell you that on many flights - including many regional short haul flights in a variety of national contexts - you have so much language diversity on board that you cannot communicate fluently with everyone. It is not possible to explain to all passengers how all of the airplane's features work, and especially to less experienced fliers who might be feeling nervous or unfamiliar to begin with. I will never forget once landing in a 747-400 at NRT when right before touchdown, an elderly lady got up, got her bag down from the overhead, and began to proceed to the exit to deplane. I ripped off my jumpseat harness, grabbed onto her, and held her against the jumpseat as we touched down. I was able to ditch the rollerboard just aft of my jumpseat so it wouldn't shoot down the aisle. If I wouldn't have done that, she would have been walking in the aisle when reverse thrust and autobrakes engaged, which could have been very dangerous to her and others in her way. She did not speak English or Spanish, my two languages, and thus I had no ability to tell her what was happening. After we turned off the runway, I walked her back to her seat and we were all good! But that is the type of passenger that you have to plan for. It would not work to tell her how an overhead bin emergency locking mechanism would work.
 
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keesje
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 2:55 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
I find really interesting that everybody is complaining about people taking their belongings with them during an emergency evacuation, but everybody seems to be OK with the aisle that has to evacuate 5 pax per row being 43cm wide at knee height.


Of course you are right, but that is so fundamental, baked in, as is, people will laugh at you for even questioning it..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Kno
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 3:03 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
Kno wrote:
[quote="ethernal"
I read one potentially good suggestion in this thread, having an auto lock feature for the bins in an emergency situation.


You'd need data on whether or not people would spend longer trying to open it up before they give up than it would take to just get their luggage out, and it'd be interesting to see how the engineers would go about gathering that data.


Agreed!
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 3:14 pm

Kno wrote:

So many of you hate carry on luggage with a passion - I see a lot of complaints about it slowing down boarding and deplaning. Let’s get real for a moment, on a full flight, worst case scenario, this might add 2-5mins of inconvenience. Have any of you actually checked a bag? There is virtually no scenario where it won’t add an additional 10-30 minutes of inconvenience. I see a mountain being made of a mole hill in this thread with completely irrational suggestions to solve it.


In my mind it adds at least an hour currently when you count both waiting to check the bag and waiting to claim it. Both of these would take significantly longer (2x-3x) if everyone had to do it. That would simply make people quit flying flights where they could drive in the same amount of time. Right now my fly vs. drive threshold is about 4hrs. If we add 1-2hrs for the checkin/bag claim process, I'd be inclined to push that to ~6 hours. I'd be hundreds of times more likely to die in that extra 4 hours (2 each way) on the road that I would in a plane crash (or a mass shooting for the people here that seem to think that's comparable). We should ban cars too!

What about coats and medical devices...people often put those in the overhead, should we ban those too? Maybe we should all just fly naked.

In all seriousness, just make a law about it (if there isn't one already, I'd imagine this would fall under "following crew instructions"), and then fine/jail people who don't follow it.

Kno wrote:
I read one potentially good suggestion in this thread, having an auto lock feature for the bins in an emergency situation.


Perhaps, but that also comes with a cost and I'm not that sure it would work as intended in an emergency. As someone mentioned earlier, it might actually make it take longer as people try to open the locked bins.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
User avatar
PatrickZ80
Posts: 3818
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 6:58 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
Charge for cabin luggage and free checked luggage.


That has been proposed earlier, but will never happen.

Airports charge airlines money for each item of checked luggage they have to handle, so checked luggage costs the airlines money. Then why would they give that away for free? But airports do not charge airlines for hand luggage, so it is cost-effective for the airlines if people bring their luggage on board as hand luggage instead of checked luggage.

What airlines could do is invest in larger overhead bins, preferably with dividers so each seat can have it's own assigned overhead bin space. If you sit in that seat, your hand luggage goes in the corresponding compartment. This is easily possible.

In case of an emergency situation there will always be people grabbing their hand luggage, this is unfortunately inevitable. Restricting them access will only slow things down. I agree things would go faster if they would leave their luggage behind, but this is perhaps too much to ask for. The best thing you can do is press charges on everyone who leaves a plane with luggage in case of an emergency. That won't help during the emergency itself, but will have a deterrent effect for the future.

As for heavy hand luggage falling on peoples heads in case of turbulence, the solution would be to invest in overhead bins that don't open so easily in case of turbulence. Put stronger locks in them that are able to resist turbulence. And perhaps make the overhead bin doors smaller so that in case one door opens less luggage will fall out.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 7:12 pm

Bhoy wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Charge for cabin luggage and free checked luggage.

people who've paid for that carry-on will be even more determined to take it off with them. Reverse psychology.

I’m sure you’d get your money back
 
HKows
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 1:24 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 7:58 pm

Someone mentioned that instead of getting rid of overheads and/or paying for luggage, we should really reconsider the safety of the modern high density cabins.
An Aisle where even in a non emergency you can't pass someone coming the other direction or standing there trying to get something out of the overhead bins. A seat row from you cant easily get out of with out asking the person next to you for permission to walk (climb) over and be too close for comfort.

I still think that a lock could be considered, but at least there should be a lawful action against those who dare to stand and make silly social media updated during an emergency evacuation or try to gather their belongings.
For me those actions are on the same level as staring and blocking EMTs trying to get to a person in medical emergency. And in my understanding: Widowers, Survivors and even Airlines should be able to prosecute or at least make investigation efforts if they feel that some of the passengers actually wasted time and hence led to more unnecessary victims. I know it's hard to prove those actions but at least make make inquiries and make sure public opinion gets sensitive about those issues. It doesn't need to necessarily lead to manslaughter or negligence charges but Accident reports should make the role of those misbehaving clear!
I know that in Aviation a lot is asked from the passengers who not all have a background in Aviation or any other technical and security involved workspaces. Even simple tasks like briefing and making sure the simple task of asking someone to shut down their phones is met by "streetwise" knowledge and ignorance.
In my opinion we should take a step back, cheap airfares made flying possible for everyone which is good but we also should therefore assume that everyone is a non frequent flyer with basic knowledge:

1. Return to the more realistic safety briefings (no more animated cartoonish) which makes sure that people who watch those are made sure about the gravity and importance of those briefings. They are not to entertain!

2. Enforce the safety in the cabin! I'm not a fan of the Chinese way of control but what I like is that every Chinese aircraft makes sure people know that by entering the aircraft they are to abide to the Chinese aviation laws and they will enforce it! There is even an announcement by a safety officer on board making sure that everyone knows. In my opinion it helped because if you compare traveling in China in the 90s to today there is a huge improvement.

3. Reconsider Safety standards like Aisle width, Exits and simple Seat rows....
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:03 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
one possibility is to make it known that in event of an evacuation any bags wrongly carried will be confiscated immediately, and return not guaranteed.


Pretty much guaranteed not to stand up in court, even if you could get people to cooperate in "surrendering" their bag.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 331
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:08 pm

chonetsao wrote:
If something or some policy caused death in an accident, it is worth to be looked at and researched, regardless how often it happens. Ask the people who suffered tragic death in Manchester, in Shenzhen and in Moscow. Safety issue is not about the frequency, but about how to prevent it happening again.


But we *do* make tradeoffs between safety and convenience all the time. It's generally acknowledged that backwards-facing seats would be safer than forwards-facing seats. But nearly every commercial airplane has forward-facing seats.
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:10 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
I was only taking a small briefcase containing a small laptop, a book and headphones+phone accessories aboard.


Gotta love the virtue-signalling in this thread.
 
SurlyBonds
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:15 pm

TW870 wrote:
After we turned off the runway, I walked her back to her seat and we were all good! But that is the type of passenger that you have to plan for. It would not work to tell her how an overhead bin emergency locking mechanism would work.


Clearly it was not all good; she should have been prosecuted for attempted murder, and if not that given at least 5 years hard labor in Siberia. [/sarcasm]
 
eielef
Topic Author
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:07 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:33 pm

A flight attendant from SU1492 revealed that many passengers trying to escape the flames were slowed down by others stopping to grab their luggage. https://confessionsofatrolleydolly.com/ ... vacuation/

Lets qualify the passengers on a certain plane in two categories: those who travel often, call them the Experts, and the Amateurs, those who travel less than 10 times a year. The Amateurs are much more likely to take a lot of luggage, because they don't know how to pack, nor have the tools to pack like an Expert. They also travel for longer periods, like holidays, and they take tons of clothes (some take ALL of their clothes).
Then you have the Expert, the one who doesn't recline the seat before take off, who doesn't disturb the crew with some obvious questions, who doesn't panic in case of a delay, or of turbulence, the one who pays extra to seat in the first rows, aisle, of Economy (if he is not flying J of F). The one who knows everything about priority, lounges, etc. The one who mostly flights with no luggage, or has such a big status that his bag will be the first in the bell.

The Expert is likely to have paid a higher air fare, and willing to pay much more for his confort. The Amateur, instead, has paid less, and is willing to pay as little as possible.

Let the Amateur send his big luggage, his guitar, his winter coat, everything, free of charge to the belly of the plane, and allow him, for free, just ONE small item. Or the computer, or the toys, or the toothbrush. A second item, means checking.

But the same rule should be for the Expert. If he has paid to choose a seat (and I don't mean emergency exit, I mean seat 4C), he will pay to take his expensive hand luggage, because, as he say, time is money. And he (or the company he works for) has plenty of money to splurge on.

Overhead bins will be again empty, so will be security lines, because people Experts know how to pack, not so much Amateurs, taking a knife set, or a battery, or many liters of water and other drinks, and even a small explosive he found in his garden.... Check in will be heavy, but Experts don't check in at airports, they do it with their phones in advance.

So, what's the point on all of this? A benefit to everyone, both the Amateurs (who can now take all their wardrobe to their Beverly Hillbillies holidays in Orlando) and for the Experts that have good room for their computers and personal items, that are so urgent to retrieve at their destination.

IMHO, both sort of passengers shouldn't travel together, and mostly they don't. I doubt Experts would travel on Thomas Cook, or Monarch, or Ryanair Sun, but, sometimes, it happen, as is chaotic for everyone.

I like to position myself in between both classes. I take 45 flights a year, and in most cases, I wait an the carrousel, without any hurry. I hate hand luggage, specially the process of carrying it for endless hours of connections and waiting time at boarding...
 
77H
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 8:40 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
77H wrote:
3) Another solution would be to pass laws regarding the removal of luggage during an emergency. For example, allow for manslaughter or negligent homicide charges to be brought against passengers found to have removed luggage if there is loss of life. While harsh, it would be an effective deterrent.


Of course it will, because people who are panicking are world-renowned for their ability to consider the future consequences of their panic while they're panicking.


So is that what you would tell the loved ones of those who passed away during an emergency?

Really sorry that your (insert relationship here) was trapped onboard and perished. Several people panicked and decided their wardrobe was of paramount importance.

If someone you loved died because they couldn’t get off the aircraft in time, are you just going to accept that their death was made more likely due to people in front of them grabbing belongings? Are you just going to write it off as “oh they must have panicked” ?

To play off other comments up thread, those criticizing posters critizing passengers who take time to gather belongings... It’s easy to hypothesize how one might react to the loss of the loved one under these circumstances but it’s impossible to know. Imagine living with constant wonder if your loved one would have survived if other passengers hadn’t taken time to collect their stuff? God forbid, no one ever has to find out.

77H
 
77H
Posts: 1441
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Mon May 06, 2019 9:10 pm

While it is upsetting that people take the time to grab their belongings in an emergency it doesn’t surprise me in the age of entitlement. I can’t tell you how many flights I’ve been on where FAs make an announcement after landing asking people who are at destination or have longer layovers to please stay seated to allow those on tight connections to quickly deplane. Every time it goes in one ear and out the other and the second the seat belt since turns off the aisle floods with people, preventing those with tight connections from getting off quickly.

77H
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 12:07 am

eielef wrote:
So, what's the point on all of this? A benefit to everyone, both the Amateurs (who can now take all their wardrobe to their Beverly Hillbillies holidays in Orlando) and for the Experts that have good room for their computers and personal items, that are so urgent to retrieve at their destination.


Segmenting the market is well and good. I'd respectfully suggest, however, that you might like to rethink your stereotypes ("Beverly Hillbillies") and consider whether you're making this argument from a place of privilege.

eielef wrote:
I take 45 flights a year, and in most cases, I wait an the carrousel, without any hurry.


Thanks for the virtue signalling.

eielef wrote:
I hate hand luggage, specially the process of carrying it for endless hours of connections and waiting time at boarding...


It's apparent you hate hand luggage; if I may be so bold, I suspect a lot of the "ban cabin baggage" crowd in this thread feels similarly, and is largely seizing on SU1492 as a pretext to implement their dislike of hand baggage at the expense of everyone else.

As for cutting down on waiting time at boarding or security, have you considered that conversely your proposal would drastically increase waiting time at the check-in counter? Even if you've checked in ahead of time, you still need to show ID and boarding passes to check bags.
 
FlyDeltaJetsATL
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:39 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 12:10 am

flipdewaf wrote:
777Jet wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
I don’t understand your comment.


I know...

flipdewaf wrote:
I haven’t declared I would behave in a different way to how people have been shown to behave in crashes but you have, what do you believe you will behave differently?


How some people have been shown to behave in crashes. Not all people. I will behave like those who leave their personal items behind and GTF out of there asap. I will be pushing anybody out of my way if need be. My hands will be empty unless I'm holding onto my wife. If you think you might delay yourself and others whilst you search through the bins, especially as an avgeek, then you are not very bright. I will be like the Americans leaving the titanic, not the British who queued and died...

I’m not asserting how you would or would not behave, you or I might well behave in a number of different ways, as others do, some leave bags and some don’t. You have asserted that you would behave in a particular way and then proceeded not to back it up with any evidence.


If I am driving along and I see a pedestrian run into my lane I am going to slam on the brakes.

If I am in a burning aircraft that just crash landed I am going to forget my belongings and bolt straight to the exit.

If you could not state what I just stated something is wrong. Although, you specifically have excluded yourself from making such statements unless you can provide the evidence to back it up like you request from others.

What are you going to do if your dream girl, or guy, or crush strips in front of you? I know what I would do. Since you have excluded yourself from being able to satisfactorily answer that question you do not need to answer.

Jesse
FLY DELTA JETS
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 12:13 am

77H wrote:
Really sorry that your (insert relationship here) was trapped onboard and perished. Several people panicked and decided their wardrobe was of paramount importance.


You're still framing this as a rational choice on the part of the luggage-clad pax ("deciding their wardrobe is of paramount importance"). What people are arguing is that it's not a rational choice. Panic, shock, and PTSD are not rational.

Indeed, I wonder how much of this is "muscle memory" ("this is what I do automatically every time after landing") and coping with shock ("the airplane's stopped, everything is OK"), rather than a rational decision. One place to begin in all this would be to interview people who have gone through previous evacuations and to establish why they did, or did not, grab luggage, whether it was a conscious decision, and whether there is a correlation to factors such as where they were sitting, etc. That at least gives us some data to work with.
 
BerenErchamion
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 12:21 am

77H wrote:
BerenErchamion wrote:
77H wrote:
3) Another solution would be to pass laws regarding the removal of luggage during an emergency. For example, allow for manslaughter or negligent homicide charges to be brought against passengers found to have removed luggage if there is loss of life. While harsh, it would be an effective deterrent.


Of course it will, because people who are panicking are world-renowned for their ability to consider the future consequences of their panic while they're panicking.


So is that what you would tell the loved ones of those who passed away during an emergency?

Yes, because it's true. I get that it's emotionally satisfying to have someone to place the moral culpability for things going wrong onto, but it's not warranted here, however emotionally satisfying. People aren't morally culpable for actions they take when they're not in control of their cognitive faculties, when it's not their fault they're not in control in the first place. Someone who drives drunk can be held accountable because they chose to drink in the first place. But the passengers didn't choose for the plane to crash-land, and so they can't be held accountable for the fact that they panicked in response to a hyper-stressful emergency situation.

If someone you loved died because they couldn’t get off the aircraft in time, are you just going to accept that their death was made more likely due to people in front of them grabbing belongings? Are you just going to write it off as “oh they must have panicked” ?

Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. But there's a reason we generally don't let people personally affected by things make decisions about criminal charging--because they're hardly the most objective observers of the situation. They tend to be driven by their need for visceral emotional satisfaction than by a sober, sensible analysis of the entirety of the situation. I would quite likely be such a person, which is why it's a good thing I wouldn't be the one responsible for making a decision about legal action in a situation that I was personally affected by--because I would very possibly let my emotion cloud my judgment and choose wrongly.

The world is a messy place, and sometimes that means that everything doesn't have a neat, satisfying outcome with someone to pin it on. Grow up.
 
77H
Posts: 1441
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 1:39 am

BerenErchamion wrote:
77H wrote:
BerenErchamion wrote:

Of course it will, because people who are panicking are world-renowned for their ability to consider the future consequences of their panic while they're panicking.


So is that what you would tell the loved ones of those who passed away during an emergency?

Yes, because it's true. I get that it's emotionally satisfying to have someone to place the moral culpability for things going wrong onto, but it's not warranted here, however emotionally satisfying. People aren't morally culpable for actions they take when they're not in control of their cognitive faculties, when it's not their fault they're not in control in the first place. Someone who drives drunk can be held accountable because they chose to drink in the first place. But the passengers didn't choose for the plane to crash-land, and so they can't be held accountable for the fact that they panicked in response to a hyper-stressful emergency situation.

If someone you loved died because they couldn’t get off the aircraft in time, are you just going to accept that their death was made more likely due to people in front of them grabbing belongings? Are you just going to write it off as “oh they must have panicked” ?

Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. But there's a reason we generally don't let people personally affected by things make decisions about criminal charging--because they're hardly the most objective observers of the situation. They tend to be driven by their need for visceral emotional satisfaction than by a sober, sensible analysis of the entirety of the situation. I would quite likely be such a person, which is why it's a good thing I wouldn't be the one responsible for making a decision about legal action in a situation that I was personally affected by--because I would very possibly let my emotion cloud my judgment and choose wrongly.

The world is a messy place, and sometimes that means that everything doesn't have a neat, satisfying outcome with someone to pin it on. Grow up.


Grow up? Was that necessary ? People keep citing the panic and confusion surrounding an emergency as a justification for grabbing at one’s luggage. If people are so panicked, dazed and confused how do they have the wherewithal in that moment to locate the correct overhead bin and pull out the correct suitcase understanding that cabin lighting is probably in-op, there may be smoke and a bunch of other panicked passengers trying to get out of harms way ? Grabbing something from the seatback pocket or on the floor in front of you is more understandable because it is likely visible to you and within arms length. But to rationalize going into the overhead bin and retrieving your suitcase as a response to panic is off the mark in my opinion. One has to go out of their way to go to the overhead bin and grab the correct suitcase. This to me implies deliberate intent.

If I were behind a passenger who was blocking my escape reaching into the overhead bin and I hit them and pushed them down so I could get through, can I claim that I did it out of panic and fear ? Should I expect that person, their loved ones and the authorities to understand that I panicked, reacted instinctually in an effort to survive ?

77H
 
cpd
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 3:58 am

To the person above, if you hit and knock over the person ahead of you, what about me who might be trying to get out of the plane stuck behind you?

You might have made my exit more difficult!

Do I have the right to knock you over too because you are slowing my exit down? :roll:

Nobody but the first few passengers will get off the plane because all the others will be knocking each other to the floor.

Lockable overhead bins are a bad idea too, more complexity for no great profit. And as for that silly suggestion of electric shock, that will never occur. The first time it malfunctions then the airline and manufacturer will be sued to oblivion.
 
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seahawk
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 5:15 am

In the end the only thing that needs to change is making a checked bag free and a larger carry-on payable. The plebs will the check their bags and the travelling professionals can still travel with ease.
 
eielef
Topic Author
Posts: 699
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 6:52 am

seahawk wrote:
In the end the only thing that needs to change is making a checked bag free and a larger carry-on payable. The plebs will the check their bags and the travelling professionals can still travel with ease.

Exactly that's my suggestion.

SurlyBonds wrote:
eielef wrote:
So, what's the point on all of this? A benefit to everyone, both the Amateurs (who can now take all their wardrobe to their Beverly Hillbillies holidays in Orlando) and for the Experts that have good room for their computers and personal items, that are so urgent to retrieve at their destination.


Segmenting the market is well and good. I'd respectfully suggest, however, that you might like to rethink your stereotypes ("Beverly Hillbillies") and consider whether you're making this argument from a place of privilege.


Beverly Hillbillies is not something offensive, I just made a bit of fun of the insane amount of luggage some people (tourists) take with them on a holiday. And that reminded me to that 1960s TV series, that wasn't offensive at all. I'm in no place of privilege. I would never want to be in a place of privilege. I'm not "entitled" to it..
Thing is: amateurs tend to take more hand luggage than experts. More luggage overall. Not long ago, in Khabrovo Airport, ground crew decided (wisely) that a passenger had too much hand luggage, he had to check it and pay a very high fee (because he hadn't bought it online). Hell break loose, as he decided he wouldn't pay, and he would get to the plane with that bag. So he just went to the bus (the one who would drive us to the aircraft) without authorization, with the very big bag. It took less than 30 seconds to the police to be in the bus, and the passenger left handcuffed. We departed few minutes later (route KGD-VKO) without this passenger.

These people, including me, won't mind waiting 15 minutes or more in the airport. Is not a pleasure, but is something we can live with. I also wait 15 minutes to board because the line moves VERY slow as people wants to play tetris with all the hand luggage they have, in very small compartments.

I recall a AA flight between Huntsville, AL and Chicago ORD, that the plane was a small Embraer. The overhead bins are smaller than in other planes, so putting your bags in the lower part of the plane was mandatory. People removed some of the valuables on the gate, and bags went there. As we landed in ORD, the bags came very fast and were placed in the Jetway. Maybe the delay was less than 5 minutes. No one complained. But no one took any large items besides their coats (it was winter) and their laptops or iPads. There were no trolleys, no nothing.

Similar happened with a CRJ200 flight of Rusline (route VKO-VOZ) and with the Dash-8 of Air Baltic (KBP-RIX), or the ATR72 of JAT (SKP-BEG). The overhead bins are smaller so many pieces of luggage, that have the size to fit in a B737 or A320, do not fit on these smaller planes. Maybe they fit in the E190, the CSeries or the SSJ, but i'm not so sure...

If it works with regional airlines in the US, why wouldn't it work world wide?
 
cpd
Posts: 5955
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 8:23 am

eielef wrote:
seahawk wrote:
In the end the only thing that needs to change is making a checked bag free and a larger carry-on payable. The plebs will the check their bags and the travelling professionals can still travel with ease.

Exactly that's my suggestion.

SurlyBonds wrote:
eielef wrote:
So, what's the point on all of this? A benefit to everyone, both the Amateurs (who can now take all their wardrobe to their Beverly Hillbillies holidays in Orlando) and for the Experts that have good room for their computers and personal items, that are so urgent to retrieve at their destination.


Segmenting the market is well and good. I'd respectfully suggest, however, that you might like to rethink your stereotypes ("Beverly Hillbillies") and consider whether you're making this argument from a place of privilege.


Beverly Hillbillies is not something offensive, I just made a bit of fun of the insane amount of luggage some people (tourists) take with them on a holiday. And that reminded me to that 1960s TV series, that wasn't offensive at all. I'm in no place of privilege. I would never want to be in a place of privilege. I'm not "entitled" to it..
Thing is: amateurs tend to take more hand luggage than experts. More luggage overall. Not long ago, in Khabrovo Airport, ground crew decided (wisely) that a passenger had too much hand luggage, he had to check it and pay a very high fee (because he hadn't bought it online). Hell break loose, as he decided he wouldn't pay, and he would get to the plane with that bag. So he just went to the bus (the one who would drive us to the aircraft) without authorization, with the very big bag. It took less than 30 seconds to the police to be in the bus, and the passenger left handcuffed. We departed few minutes later (route KGD-VKO) without this passenger.

These people, including me, won't mind waiting 15 minutes or more in the airport. Is not a pleasure, but is something we can live with. I also wait 15 minutes to board because the line moves VERY slow as people wants to play tetris with all the hand luggage they have, in very small compartments.

I recall a AA flight between Huntsville, AL and Chicago ORD, that the plane was a small Embraer. The overhead bins are smaller than in other planes, so putting your bags in the lower part of the plane was mandatory. People removed some of the valuables on the gate, and bags went there. As we landed in ORD, the bags came very fast and were placed in the Jetway. Maybe the delay was less than 5 minutes. No one complained. But no one took any large items besides their coats (it was winter) and their laptops or iPads. There were no trolleys, no nothing.

Similar happened with a CRJ200 flight of Rusline (route VKO-VOZ) and with the Dash-8 of Air Baltic (KBP-RIX), or the ATR72 of JAT (SKP-BEG). The overhead bins are smaller so many pieces of luggage, that have the size to fit in a B737 or A320, do not fit on these smaller planes. Maybe they fit in the E190, the CSeries or the SSJ, but i'm not so sure...

If it works with regional airlines in the US, why wouldn't it work world wide?


The lack of flights I do per year would have you classing me as an amateur! Yet I take three bags in total!! Bike bag, one bag for my normal clothes and other things and my backpack.

I think your classification system is totally broken.

Oh, and I fly business class, and use the lounges. And understand all the points systems and all of that stuff, despite being an amateur!
 
eielef
Topic Author
Posts: 699
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:07 am

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 8:43 am

cpd wrote:

The lack of flights I do per year would have you classing me as an amateur! Yet I take three bags in total!! Bike bag, one checked in bag and my backpack.

I think your classification system is totally broken.

Oh, and I fly business class, and use the lounges. And understand all the points systems and all of that stuff, despite being an amateur!


Whats wrong being an amateur? You check a bag and a bike, so you wait for both. Now, you get to send also your backpack. It doesn't matter in your fly in business (you get a 2nd or 3rd bag for free in some airlines). And using lounges, points, and the other stuff, is completely fine. There are countless blogs to teach you how to use the system properly, and I know people who has become experts in the matter.
The thing is: you are not the average expert business flyer, that goes from a meeting to the other, just with a very small backpack, and pays (his company mostly does it) full F class fares, or full J or full Y.
You pack more things, e.g. a bike, than most business travel would never consider taking. I believe they are more likely to know how to behave in an emergency than Amateurs.. They never travel with children or pets for starters... And they are, imho, calmed people that respects the crew decisions and doesn't make a war to them.
Is not seen one of them has been kicked out from a plane for drinking their duty free booze. That's a very amateur thing.

I recall an amazing blog of a crew member, from Venezuela, who told his experiences serving Business Class, and he had a technic to identify Primerizos (that means First Timers in Spanish). First timers had been upgraded to Business by the airline, or by late check in, or by something not meaning to pay a cent. They often ask for a spare amenity kit to take home, they ask for champagne during breakfast (albeit not drinking champagne at home), they try the lie flat position on their seats still on the tarmac, they ask for food whose name they don't even know how to read. Unfortunately, the blog has been erased but with Amateurs I had a picture of these passengers, and not only flying in Business class, but also in economy, due to very accesible tickets bought in advance. Primerizos are easily spotted in an airport doing a queue for boarding even before the plane is at the gate.

I'm proudly one of them too. I'm the only one that is called many times to security because of shoes, of a belt, of the computer in the backpack, etc. I'm very used to it. That's why I try to arrive early and smile and apologize at each opportunity. I pay for each of my trips, and I'm very happy with what I have. I've flown Business not more than 5 times and First only once, and I behaved as a Primerizo (or First Timer) on each of those opportunities. Proud of doing so. Many of us in Airliners.net are also Primerizos and Amateur travelers, and there is nothing to be ashamed of it. The thing to be ashamed would be to pretend to be an Expert and fail miserably, for instance not knowing what to do exactly when crew members ask for "brace before impact", because they forgot to remove their headphones on the explanation before take off. You'll notice an amateur because he is the one who removed his seatbelts while the plane is still landing, even before reverses have been set on. He likes to stand up and take their bags while taxing, besides many calls by the crew to remain seated with the seat belt fastened. He is an amateur, but wants to call himself an expert...

This is an Amateur playing as an Expert.
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seahawk
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 11:32 am

In the end the "status" of the passenger matters little, the business decision of the airlines to reward bringing stuff into the cabin by making it largely free compared to having pay for a checked bag, is imho not helping safety. It should be the other way round.

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