RDUDDJI
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 12:12 pm

seahawk wrote:
In the end the only thing that needs to change is making a checked bag free and a larger carry-on payable. The plebs will the check their bags and the travelling professionals can still travel with ease.


False. The only thing that needs to change is holding those who can’t follow the rules (law) accountable. It’s that simple.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 1:37 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
seahawk wrote:
In the end the only thing that needs to change is making a checked bag free and a larger carry-on payable. The plebs will the check their bags and the travelling professionals can still travel with ease.


False. The only thing that needs to change is holding those who can’t follow the rules (law) accountable. It’s that simple.


I see, so you're another keyboard warrior who doesn't understand the first thing about human psychology in stressful situations.

You can't reasonably hold anyone accountable for a panic response that they have no control over.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 2:54 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
seahawk wrote:
In the end the only thing that needs to change is making a checked bag free and a larger carry-on payable. The plebs will the check their bags and the travelling professionals can still travel with ease.


False. The only thing that needs to change is holding those who can’t follow the rules (law) accountable. It’s that simple.


I see, so you're another keyboard warrior who doesn't understand the first thing about human psychology in stressful situations.

You can't reasonably hold anyone accountable for a panic response that they have no control over.


Your personal attacks aside, that's for a court to decide. Far be it from me or you (or any other carry on hater) to judge someone's mental state that we've never met. That being said, to assume that everyone who grabbed their stuff is "panicking" is, at best, ignorant.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 4:49 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
BerenErchamion wrote:

I see, so you're another keyboard warrior who doesn't understand the first thing about human psychology in stressful situations. You can't reasonably hold anyone accountable for a panic response that they have no control over.


Your personal attacks aside, that's for a court to decide. Far be it from me or you (or any other carry on hater) to judge someone's mental state that we've never met. That being said, to assume that everyone who grabbed their stuff is "panicking" is, at best, ignorant.


It's actually not, at least not in the sense that the jury (or judge, in a bench trial) is the "trier of fact."

The question raised above -- whether can you hold panicked people accountable -- is one of law, not fact. And the judge is the "trier of law."

Most states likely have statutes or binding precedent on this question; it's almost certainly not a new question, or, to use jargon, a "question of first impression." Furthermore, judges don't have latitude to do whatever they want when it comes to following precedent. There are strong industry norms against doing so; they would likely be overturned on appeal (this is the strongest deterrent); and judges who openly refuse to follow precedent can be subject to professional discipline.
 
bennett123
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Tue May 07, 2019 10:20 pm

Personally, this is an issue which the Law must address.

The alternative is that one day someone is going to delay evacuation and the folk behind will beat the C*** out of him.

My take on this is if it is valuable or critical it goes under the seat in front.

I would never put anything important in the lockers.
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Wed May 08, 2019 3:42 am

bennett123 wrote:
Personally, this is an issue which the Law must address.


If your goal is to actually effect a change in behavior, I'm not sure that people who are panicking are going to be considering the potential legal consequences of their panic while they're panicking.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Wed May 08, 2019 6:15 am

seahawk wrote:
In the end the "status" of the passenger matters little, the business decision of the airlines to reward bringing stuff into the cabin by making it largely free compared to having pay for a checked bag, is imho not helping safety. It should be the other way round.


True, but this is where safety conflicts with profitability. For airlines it doesn't make any sense to turn this around, they would end up losing money that way.

Airports charge airlines for every piece of checked luggage they handle. If airlines need to pay for checked luggage, it's only logical they forward those costs to the passengers making use of that service. Airports don't charge for hand luggage, so airlines actually want passengers to bring hand luggage instead of checked luggage. It saves them money.

In the extremely unlikely case of an emergency this would of course invert, but how often does that happen? And is such an extremely unlikely case going to change the policy (and profitability) of every flight that does fly safe?
 
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seahawk
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Wed May 08, 2019 6:26 am

Airlines have no motivation to change it, the regulating authorities however should look at that imho. Decreasing seat pitch, smaller seats, smaller aisles and more hand luggage have an effect on safety. And to be honest I am less concerned about an evacuation, as this is very unlikely, but about turbulence and stuff flying through the cabin. Imho the weight limits on hand luggage have become to high.
 
eielef
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Wed May 08, 2019 7:06 am

bennett123 wrote:
Personally, this is an issue which the Law must address.

The alternative is that one day someone is going to delay evacuation and the folk behind will beat the C*** out of him.

My take on this is if it is valuable or critical it goes under the seat in front.

I would never put anything important in the lockers.


The point is: if you are in an evacuation, how critical or valuable ANYTHING can be? Do you carry a Picasso paint there? The original manuscripts of the Bible? A million dollars? No. Mostly you, or any other passenger, has just a phone, a laptop, a passport, a wallet, and not much more. All of that can be replaced.

In Russia, people is identified only with their "Internal Passport" (внутренний паспорт) which is slightly bigger than an international passport (I believe passports from all countries have the same size). This Passport is the only legal ID of a Russian person. A Driver's License is not accepted. Maybe the international passport works, but for most things, they'll want your Internal Passport. Both Citizens and Foreigners are expected to carry their passports at all times for random police controls. For instance, in Metro Stations, I've been asked for my passport just because I was speaking Spanish on the phone. I could have been an illegal immigrant, e.g. Police was very polite, I had/have ALWAYS, my passport with me, gave it, they checked it (no computer, just read it, check dates on the visa, etc), and wished me a safe ride back home.
The passport (in all men) contains all their military information, their marital status, their address, etc. Lot of the information there is handwritten!.
Getting a replacement passport takes very long, and is not easy to do. So a Russian passenger could have wanted to save his passport. And is so large it doesn't fit on a wallet, e.g. Plus, it is fragile, because it needs to be in pristine conditions!.

Anyway: even having this внутренний паспорт lost in the fire of the plane makes sense if you could have saved yourself and others...
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Wed May 08, 2019 5:40 pm

seahawk wrote:
And to be honest I am less concerned about an evacuation, as this is very unlikely, but about turbulence and stuff flying through the cabin. Imho the weight limits on hand luggage have become to high.


I agree this has become a risk, but I'm afraid we're going to have to disagree on the solution.

What if overhead bins were redesigned in such a way that hand luggage cannot fall out during turbulence? As it is now, the overhead bins open up far too easily. There's only one simple lock that prevents it from opening, but those locks are not turbulence-proof. Apart from that, the overhead bin doors are far too big meaning that if one door opens over a meter of overhead bin is exposed where things could fall out.

I think overhead bins are at the beginning of a major improvement process. It has already started with larger overhead bins where hand luggage suitcases can be stored vertical instead of horizontal, but that's not the end of it. It's just the first step. The next step is to put dividers in the bins, creating compartments that can contain exactly one hand luggage suitcase. Assign each compartment to a seat number. If you sit in that seat, your hand luggage goes in that compartment. Once you're that far, it's a small step to putting a small door in front of each compartment instead of a large door in front of a whole row of compartments. This makes sure that, should a door be opened, less luggage is going to fall out. And last but not least, put a strong lock on the doors that doesn't open in case of turbulence. Then you've created to perfect overhead bins.
 
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seahawk
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 4:55 am

In a single aisle plane with economy class 6 abreast seating, there is no space for 6 trolleys. Imho the best option is to limit the free hand luggage to something that fits under the front seat and make any large hand luggage payable. Say 30x25x20 for 4kg.

The regulator should limit hand luggage to this size unless you have a guaranteed space in the overhead bins, This would also make a nice extra income for the airlines, as now everybody will either pay for a check-in bag or for the right to take larger hand luggage into the cabin. A solution to increase safety and revenue is a win-win.
 
grozzy
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 5:21 am

One thing that might help is banning bags with wheels in the cabin. If they have to carry their bag it would give passengers an incentive to keep size and weight down.
 
eielef
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 5:47 am

seahawk wrote:
The regulator should limit hand luggage to this size unless you have a guaranteed space in the overhead bins, This would also make a nice extra income for the airlines, as now everybody will either pay for a check-in bag or for the right to take larger hand luggage into the cabin. A solution to increase safety and revenue is a win-win.

Make check in bag free, do not keep charging for it.
 
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seahawk
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 6:05 am

eielef wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The regulator should limit hand luggage to this size unless you have a guaranteed space in the overhead bins, This would also make a nice extra income for the airlines, as now everybody will either pay for a check-in bag or for the right to take larger hand luggage into the cabin. A solution to increase safety and revenue is a win-win.

Make check in bag free, do not keep charging for it.


Why, the passenger have accepted to pay for the bag, so let them. And business traveller do not need or want the checked in bag, so why should they pay for it.

Basic fare should be a seat and a tiny amount of hand luggage

upgrade options

larger carry on with guaranteed space in the bins, but only available if you reserve a seat as well - you could then adjust the price for the bag depending on the amount of space left in the bins
checked in bag
both

Would create some nice extra revenue.
 
eielef
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 8:28 am

seahawk wrote:
Why, the passenger have accepted to pay for the bag, so let them. And business traveller do not need or want the checked in bag, so why should they pay for it.

Basic fare should be a seat and a tiny amount of hand luggage


Why do you think the passenger has accepted? Passengers don't have many choices. The airline is the one that sets the rules. The passenger is forced to accept, or to travel by train or bus.


If we are speaking of a legacy or regular airline, I believe if charging for hand luggage (a 10kg piece), that revenue can be enough to make checked luggage free. So business travelers, who don't need a checked bag, can have (at an extra price) guaranteed space in the overhead bins for all of their luggage (no need to buy the priority boarding any more), while normal tourists don't take anything on board, and check in all or most of their belongings (free of charge) and are entitled to a very small piece of hand luggage free of charge...

If you are speaking of Ultra LCC carriers maybe you can charge for both things. Some airlines already do, for instance, Pobeda (in Russia) has approx the following fees, when buying online. Price are approx twice when doing it in the airport at the check in counter, and three times more when boarding at the gate.
    Hand Luggage up to 3 kg - one piece - Free of charge
    Hand luggage up to 10kg - 1500rub (~20EUR)
    Checked in luggage up to 10kg - 750rub (~10EUR)
    Checked in luggage up to 20kg - 2000rub (~25EUR)
    Checked in luggage - second piece - up to 20kg - 5000rub (~70EUR)

In my case, I always buy the option of 10EUR. Cheapest, and the best. I do take a very small computer bag (less than 1kg) with my computer, passport, wallet, phone, and cables. That is the way i've travelled for work and for leisure, on over 15 flights i've done with this airline, both domestic and international...
 
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seahawk
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 8:37 am

If the passenger has no choice, even better. That is guaranteed revenue.
 
eielef
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 9:05 am

seahawk wrote:
If the passenger has no choice, even better. That is guaranteed revenue.

But the airline has already insane revenue charging for many other things, like food, snacks, priority boarding, choosing a seat, changing a date or route, even changing the name of the passenger. The funniest is that some airlines charge for a Fuel Surcharge. Can you imagine paying to a taxi driver extra, to top up?
Charge something more, really? When will it stop?

When airlines started charging for checked in luggage, people started bringing tons of things as hand luggage. Now we see it is not only uncomfortable for those who carry something small, like a coat or an umbrella, and there is no space near them. But it also delays boarding. Creates long queues at security because many bags carry items that need further inspection, like toiletries. And now has proven to be deadly.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 7:07 pm

eielef wrote:
Make check in bag free, do not keep charging for it.


That would be unfair towards the people without checked luggage. In aviation there is no such thing as free, it is incorporated in the ticket price. This would mean people without checked luggage pay for something they don't use. They would feel like, because they don't use it, they should pay a lower ticket price.

I'm one of those people. I always prefer to fly airlines that charge for checked luggage. Why? Because if checked luggage is not incorporated in the ticket price, that ticket price can be lower. If it is incorporated, the ticket price is higher. I don't have any checked luggage, so I pay that low ticket price with no luggage fee on top of it.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 7:21 pm

eielef wrote:
And now has proven to be deadly.


Proven is a very big word. Who says the evacuation would have gone faster without hand luggage? Who says more people would have made it out? You can't say that for sure, it might not have made any difference. Maybe the people who didn't make it wouldn't have made it anyway.

You're bragging about insane revenues for charging for all kinds of things, but what you're failing to mention is that because all of those things became excluded the actual ticket prices went down. Many airlines don't make any money on tickets at all, it hardly covers their expenses. The only profit they have comes from the ancillary revenue, and honestly that ain't much.

Of course an airline could choose to make that all "free" again, however in order to keep the same profit they would need to raise their ticket prices. But when booking, passengers don't compare things that are included in the ticket price. They compare the ticket price. If one airline has it all included with a high ticket price and another airline has it all excluded with a low ticket price, the latter is the preferred choice. Why? Because they have the lowest ticket price.

Fuel surcharge is actually a legal requirement in some countries, it's the law. Airlines must mention this. However it is not a fee on top of the ticket price, it's just a mentioning of how much of the ticket price is spent on fuel. Just like airlines often mention how much of the ticket price is spent on taxes.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 7:28 pm

eielef wrote:
Why do you think the passenger has accepted? Passengers don't have many choices. The airline is the one that sets the rules. The passenger is forced to accept, or to travel by train or bus.


Or fly another airline that has another policy. Airlines set the rules indeed, but passengers pick the airline. In such, they choose the rules they feel comfortable with.

As an airline, you have to make your policy so that passengers can live with it. If they don't, they walk off to the competition and you go bankrupt. That's the way the market works. There is always competition and you must do whatever you can to make the passengers pick you over your competitor. In the meanwhile, your competitor is doing the same trying to attract those same passengers you are trying to attract.
 
eielef
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Posts: 704
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 7:41 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
eielef wrote:
Make check in bag free, do not keep charging for it.

That would be unfair towards the people without checked luggage. In aviation there is no such thing as free, it is incorporated in the ticket price. This would mean people without checked luggage pay for something they don't use. They would feel like, because they don't use it, they should pay a lower ticket price.


Is like saying that a glass is half empty, or half full.
I don't use any space of the overhead bins, albeit being free. And I don't ask the airline for the refund. Same would happen with those the have no checked bags. It shouldn't matter for them at all.
People often say that now flying is cheaper. In my experience, is the same old price, but you have to pay 50$ for a bag (///depends on airline, route, etc). Overall, prices have dropped, but so did fuel price (dropped from 0,81 to 0,22$/l between 2014 and 2018). Being one of the biggest costs of an airline, it should have made an influence on the price. But tell me if flying now is four times cheaper than in 2014? It is not. And now you pay for a bag, and before it was for free.
 
VSMUT
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 7:55 pm

ELBOB wrote:
Oddly enough, there's always enough room for the cabin crew's bags. So they can sprint off to the hotel whilst the plebs who pay their wages are stuck at the carousel.


No offense, but if we put them in the cargo, ground handlers will whisk them off to the carousel before we even realise it. Crew tags will be ignored. Been there, done that, cost us an hours delay getting them back again.

eielef wrote:
seahawk wrote:
The regulator should limit hand luggage to this size unless you have a guaranteed space in the overhead bins, This would also make a nice extra income for the airlines, as now everybody will either pay for a check-in bag or for the right to take larger hand luggage into the cabin. A solution to increase safety and revenue is a win-win.

Make check in bag free, do not keep charging for it.


How about making small cabin bags free? That would probably reduce the volume of cabin cargo by a bit.


kevertje wrote:
Additionally KLM is considering changing the carry on rules anyway due to problems.

Reason is increase of delays due to the amount of carry on items since KLM started charging for checkin luggage.

In dutch :
https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... -aanpakken


About time. Hand luggage on KLM has been a nightmare for several years. For some reason it is always much worse on KLM than on Air France, Lufthansa or LOT.
 
eielef
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Thu May 09, 2019 8:15 pm

VSMUT wrote:
How about making small cabin bags free? That would probably reduce the volume of cabin cargo by a bit.

I agree with you. But make it very clear and if possible universal. The rules change for each airline. Some have a certain size, while others have both size and weight, and it changes very often. So I bought a pretty expensive bag, which fit for cabin, but now it doesn't fit anymore, because airlines changed their sizes (this at least in Russia).
I like the way Pobeda, a Ultra LCC works:

eielef wrote:
    Hand Luggage up to 3 kg - one piece - Free of charge
    Hand luggage up to 10kg - 1500rub (~20EUR)
    Checked in luggage up to 10kg - 750rub (~10EUR)
    Checked in luggage up to 20kg - 2000rub (~25EUR)
    Checked in luggage - second piece - up to 20kg - 5000rub (~70EUR)

Give passengers many options, and make them more or less affordable. In this case, to check luggage costs half than to take it with you.
Maybe a percentage of the airfare. Like say 5% more than the total price of the ticket. Because, in Ryanair, for instance, you can pay 1E for a ticket but 25E for a piece of luggage of 20kg that makes no sense to me.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Fri May 10, 2019 6:00 am

eielef wrote:
I agree with you. But make it very clear and if possible universal. The rules change for each airline.


No, please don't make it universal! It is a good thing each airline is allowed to set it's own policy, it differentiates the airlines from each other. It gives the customer something to choose.

eielef wrote:
Give passengers many options, and make them more or less affordable. In this case, to check luggage costs half than to take it with you.
Maybe a percentage of the airfare. Like say 5% more than the total price of the ticket. Because, in Ryanair, for instance, you can pay 1E for a ticket but 25E for a piece of luggage of 20kg that makes no sense to me.


In case of Ryanair, that makes perfect sense. Of course they don't make any money on those € 1 airfares, those are just to get you on board. They actually make a loss on that, but they make up for that because of the € 25 checked luggage fee. It might not make sense to you because you think in another way Ryanair thinks.

As I've said before, luggage policies should not be universal. It eliminates the choice for customers. Airlines should not be all the same, they should be all different.
 
eielef
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Fri May 10, 2019 6:51 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
eielef wrote:
I agree with you. But make it very clear and if possible universal. The rules change for each airline.


No, please don't make it universal! It is a good thing each airline is allowed to set it's own policy, it differentiates the airlines from each other. It gives the customer something to choose.

As I've said before, luggage policies should not be universal. It eliminates the choice for customers. Airlines should not be all the same, they should be all different.


What I said was: the content of bags is universal. Because TSA decided so (after an incident in Detroit Airport with a Delta aircraft), no country allows you to bring liquids on board. You can't take sharp objects, or fire arms, even if they are toys. Some batteries are prohibited. That is for safety and is great.
But now the size. If you allow everyone to take whatever they want, then bags don't fit. And who is to blame for?
I've often been told to put my bag in a place very far away from my seat. Because I opened mine, specially in the first few rows of economy, and there was something like an oxygen machine. Or there was crew luggage. What if the person seating there steals it? Is VERY easy to do so. And many people say they don't want their valuables in a place they can't control. I can't imagine how could the airline be found reliable.

So, my idea is that there is a limit, a mathematical limit, on how many bags fit, how large can a bag be, and it shouldn't matter if you are flying American, Aeroflot or Air Koryo. One size fits all aircraft. Also, it shouldn't matter if you are flying a large A380 or a small CRJ200. The same size for everyone. So, it will have to be a very small bag.
In that case, you can well charge an extra fee for those who want to take the carry ons with them. Because there will be place, as all the bags will be smaller now, with the One Size Fits All.
But, in exchange, offer (as Ryanair does) a very cheap, if not free, option to check your bag (up to 10kg). This will have also a positive effect, due to the items that can be taken as hand luggage are limited by TSA. This will allow people to buy, e.g, a bottle of wine or of oil to their loved ones, because today there is no solution. Well, there is, to buy in the duty free shop, but is not the same quality and the same variety than in the city or the vineyard you've visited.
 
eielef
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Fri May 17, 2019 4:33 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
eielef wrote:
And now has proven to be deadly.

Fuel surcharge is actually a legal requirement in some countries, it's the law. Airlines must mention this. However it is not a fee on top of the ticket price, it's just a mentioning of how much of the ticket price is spent on fuel. Just like airlines often mention how much of the ticket price is spent on taxes.

This is very off topic but now it goes.
I just bought a one way ticket, route DME-KIV-BCN with Air Moldova. I'm not an expert on reading the small print but check this out. Fuel Surcharge is mentioned as YQ.

Fare EUR 20.00
Fees EUR 9.77 RI EUR 6.52 UH EUR 2.50 JQ EUR 6.20 WW EUR 99.00 YQ
Total Amount EUR 144,01

So the fare is 20EUR, which is very cheap. Then some multiple taxes (I guess for using an international airport, or security taxes, etc). Those are other 25EUR.
But then the fuel surcharge is 99EUR, so 5 times the price of the flight.

It makes seriously non sense... How is it calculated? How is can it be legal that?


Because the return ticket, MPL-DME, with Ural Airlines, has a very different YQ.
Fare 6440 RUB
Fare taxes YR: 500 RUB; YQ: 1776 RUB; QX: 778 RUB; IZ: 334 RUB; FR: 610 RUB; FR: 726 RUB; RI: 140 RUB
Total Amount 11304 RUB

Here the YQ is approx a 20% of the fare. In the other case is 495% of the fare. Albeit in Air Moldova was free, in Ural i was forced to pay 2500rub (33EUR) for 23kg of luggage when the reality is I only need 10. Why don't they sell a 10kg bag?
Again: Why is hand luggage limited to 5kg, to the following sizes: 55x40x20 (cm). Why not 8 kilos? Why not 10 kilos like many other airlines? Sure I wouldn't have chosen Ural (I had an awful experience last year) if it wasn't the only airline flying this route nonstop, or at a decent price including one short connection. But there was nothing else.
I mean: this rules (of URAL) are the same for all economy classes passengers (Economy Light, Economy Promo, Premium-Economy, Promo Light, etc). You can't even chose which one you want. So there is no real advantage of buying a more expensive class. I'm not sure how strict will they be in France, but not wanted to risk a worse fine (well, worse: 40EUR in the airport, instead of 33EUR pre-payment). I should have risked it...

Back to this discussion, the current system is a steal. Is stupid, is unfair, and makes no real sense. Some people say: it would be unfair luggage was free if I don't have any. Sure, it could also be considered unfair that a certain amount of your taxes goes to education, and you have no children to send to school. You could potentially have children, you could potentially have luggage. The system is doomed to fail very soon. Fingers crossed.
 
TravelsUK
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:07 pm

Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Sat May 18, 2019 3:47 pm

If you want to regulate something.

a) one free piece of baggage in the hold as standard

b) strong limitation on the size and weight of the carry on[/quote]



Amen to that! Particularly in the US where carry on regulations are not enforced and heavily abused.
757 flights 1 378 350 km 34.4x around earth 2024 h 18 min 74.3 days 12.0 weeks
 
KentB27
Posts: 476
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Re: A much needed debate on carry on luggage.

Sat May 18, 2019 5:17 pm

This problem isn't solvable unless passengers aren't allowed to bring any personal items into the cabin with them, which isn't going to happen. Telling people to not take personal belongings in the event of an emergency will not work either. People are very irrational when they panic and survival instincts take over.

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos