kalvado
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:24 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
mrbots wrote:
Even websites that say "Equipment: XXXX" don't say "Max" they'll say "73M" or "3M8" or similar


I was fairly certain that's not true at all, so I did some searches with several airlines and city pairs that I fly semi-regularly to be sure and sure enough, that's not true at all.

I can provide screenshots if you like.

Just tell which booking engines did you check. Maybe interesting to compare different ones
 
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GE90man
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:31 pm

InsideMan wrote:
The MAX has rather prominent wingtips, which makes it very easy to identify against any other aircraft type. You think people will not know? Just takes a few examples of people refusing to board to put the anxiety into others too. Managers might by angry if someone arrives, but they prefer to pay for a hotel and arrival a day early rather than the person not arriving at all. Yes, 90% of people book based on price, but I will avoid the MAX wherever I can, at the very least for the forseeable future until the safety record is on par with A320 and 737NG

People couldn't tell the difference between an A320 and a 737. I would hardly trust them to spot the generational difference between a MAX and NG. Furthermore, how many people actually look at their plane at the window before they board? How many airports still have windows with good enough viewing angles for people to see?
 
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tjcab
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:35 pm

boeingguy1 wrote:

In the end, 99% of the flying public can't tell what type of plane they are flying on without a safety card or announcement.


Are there studies to back this claim? I am actually curious.
 
Aither
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:36 pm

I would probably not refuse boarding a Max but certainly would feel less at ease. I prefer aircraft that can continue flying even when the computer is down instead of going straight to the floor.
Never trust the obvious
 
IADCA
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:43 pm

crescent wrote:
The demographics was said to be a broad mix of age, income, travel frequencies. I imagine the only thing unique from the norms about the survey is including Europeans who may be biased for Airbus against Boeing.


One could turn that on its head and say that the presence of Americans might bias the survey towards Boeing. It's a matter of perspective in normative terms, but in statistical terms it's just whether the sample reflects the population it's sampled from: if they're trying to get a gauge of European and American opinion, they need to sample both. If they're purporting to sample worldwide opinion, this sample is terrible.
 
c933103
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:45 pm

mrbots wrote:
Once the media moves on and stops shoving everything happening anywhere in the world related to Boeing down everyone's throats the general public will forget and move on. Even websites that say "Equipment: XXXX" don't say "Max" they'll say "73M" or "3M8" or similar. I've made it a point to ask almost someone every flight I fly on "what kind of plane is this?" Very few can actually answer the question. Haven't there also been multiple articles about people freaking out because the safety cards at UA, AA, and WN say 737-800/Max after the grounding thinking they're actually on a Max? You could probably sneak the same safety card onto a CRJ and get the same reaction.

Every aircrafts accident around the world, especially when related to civil aircraft, get global media coverage, even before the two accidents. So hoping media to "move on" doesn't seems like something that will come real.
Say NO to Hong Kong police's cooperation with criminal organizations like triad.
 
EBiafore99
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:50 pm

My guess is that when the Max is certified to fly again, airlines will "wait" a little bit before putting them in service to let the news cycle run its course. I believe AA, WN and UA have the Max out of the schedule until August. I bet the certification will happen before then, but the airlines will give themselves a breather period and re-introduce the Max slowly.
Last edited by EBiafore99 on Tue May 07, 2019 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DALMD80
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:51 pm

Yeah. I think THOSE are the people who don't know how to check what plane type. I would book by type, trying to fly on mostly MD88s but I'm only 13. :(
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
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william
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 2:58 pm

bgm wrote:
And once again many American posters on this board just gloss over the issue. Excuses abound, it'll all be fine etc etc. :sarcastic:

People often compare this to other air disasters where the passengers forget over time. However, most of those were before the 24/7 news, social media etc. I've heard many people, who know nothing about aviation say that "the MAX is a death trap", "no way I'm going on a 737 MAX" etc etc.

Your pathetic attempt to gloss over peoples' perceptions of this is exactly the same as Boeing's tone-deafness in admitting they screwed up. Reality is going to come and bite you in the ass. Hard.


Posters are attacking a poll that's designed as click bait. Right now, across America, millions will step onto a Boeing aircraft, get to the their destination and not think one thing about what aircraft they were on. Posters are stating that fact, not that the fact that over 300 people have died and the unfathomable pain on family and friends, on two different occasions on the same type of aircraft.

I will stop there, because the rest of this response to your egotistical and condescending post will get me banned from this site.


Moderators, I await your PM warning.
 
FB330
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 3:21 pm

Don't under-estimate the impact from corporate travel departments.

I work in a multi-national blue chip and fly frequently. My organisation wouldn't think twice about banning an aircraft type and instructing the travel agent not to book any flights on it. They already do it with certain airlines. With a growing emphasis on health and safety being the most important criteria, I'm confident if I said I wouldn't be able to attend a meeting because the only aircraft I can fly on is 'banned', then that would be more than acceptable (even encouraged!).

The reality is though, this is unlikely to be the case. If I had to get from A to B, I'd be very surprised if a MAX flight was my only option to get there. More likely, chosing a flight at a different time, with a different airline, routing through a hub, or a combination of train/drive/flight would get me there. Therefore in practice, we would find a way to get there without using the Max.

For leisure bookings, I suspect most people will stick to price/schedule as the driving force and not aircraft type.
 
IADFCO
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 3:56 pm

The fact that most "civilians" can't tell the difference between a MAX and an NG (I agree) may actually work in reverse: all 737 will be MAXes and therefore potential death traps (in the "civilians" minds).
 
mrbots
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 4:22 pm

c933103 wrote:
mrbots wrote:
Once the media moves on and stops shoving everything happening anywhere in the world related to Boeing down everyone's throats the general public will forget and move on. Even websites that say "Equipment: XXXX" don't say "Max" they'll say "73M" or "3M8" or similar. I've made it a point to ask almost someone every flight I fly on "what kind of plane is this?" Very few can actually answer the question. Haven't there also been multiple articles about people freaking out because the safety cards at UA, AA, and WN say 737-800/Max after the grounding thinking they're actually on a Max? You could probably sneak the same safety card onto a CRJ and get the same reaction.

Every aircrafts accident around the world, especially when related to civil aircraft, get global media coverage, even before the two accidents. So hoping media to "move on" doesn't seems like something that will come real.


So the media will just throw everything that says Boeing at the public forever? I'm not talking plane crashes as those always (and should) get a ton of media. I'm talking about the usual non-newsworthy events such as the WN engine issue that caused a Max 8 to divert while it was being flown over for grounding. That's not overly uncommon, how many times does it hit every media source? Same with the AD recently released on the 787, how often do AD's hit the mainstream media? After the Max's are back in the air for a while without incident (3 month, 6 months, 12 months?) the general public will get bored with it and move on. If they rename it and advertise it as the "newest, safest variant of the legendary 737, the most successful airplane in history" it'll happen even faster. Marketing and media has proven time and time again that humans are generally idiots that can be easily swayed. Once they're back in the air there's really no reason to fear it as at that point it will be one of (if not the most) scrutinized plane currently flying. I can see some companies banning flight on Max's to appear proactive, which big companies love doing, but after the heat dies down someone will have a spreadsheet with how much it's costing and they'll quietly lift the ban.
 
bob75013
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 4:33 pm

BerenErchamion wrote:
boeingguy1 wrote:
crescent wrote:
Barclays is out with a research note downgrading Boeing. They cite a survey with these results:

Willingness to fly on MAX After Grounding is Lifted:
19% Immediately
20% After a Few Months
23% After a Year or More
21% Never
17% Don't Know.

I have a hard time believing this. I think the results would be far different if the survey done immediately after a lifting.


What they didn't follow up with is how many of those same people can tell an A320 from a 737, let alone a 737-800 from a 737 Max 8.


Do they have to be able to? Literally every time I've booked a flight in the Internet era, there's been a thing right there on the screen saying "Equipment: xxxxx" or something equivalent. Whether you can recognize it by sight doesn't matter when they tell you up front.

Sure, there are equipment switches at the gate, but people are making their purchasing decisions based on what they're told at the time of booking (i.e. what the website tells them their flight will be on).


I'm most familiar with the UA and WN website and neither tell you upfront during the booking process what type of equipment you'll be on. The info is there, but it's not handed to you. On the WN website you have to click on the flight number to see the equipment type. On the UA website, it only shows up if you click on" "seats" or "service,". and those choosing to travel on deep discounted fares at United would have no reason to click on seats as they cannot select their seats.
 
WkndWanderer
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 4:46 pm

A study that attempted to determine changes to consumer behavior after the DC-10 crashes basically found that any consumer resistance to flying on them cleared up in less than a year. That was in a different media era and travel was booked differently then though.

https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/pdf/ ... 29.11.1225
 
A3801000
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 5:16 pm

mrbots wrote:
Once the media moves on and stops shoving everything happening anywhere in the world related to Boeing down everyone's throats the general public will forget and move on. Even websites that say "Equipment: XXXX" don't say "Max" they'll say "73M" or "3M8" or similar. I've made it a point to ask almost someone every flight I fly on "what kind of plane is this?" Very few can actually answer the question. Haven't there also been multiple articles about people freaking out because the safety cards at UA, AA, and WN say 737-800/Max after the grounding thinking they're actually on a Max? You could probably sneak the same safety card onto a CRJ and get the same reaction.


Should maybe tell you something when people freak out when reading MAX in the safety card ;)
 
ckfred
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 5:23 pm

I would get on a MAX right now. A good friend of mine is a 737 captain. He learned about the MAX on his last refresher training, and he's flown a MAX one time (a 45 minute flight that didn't give him a chance to decide the pluses and minuses versus the NG).

He thinks that crashes can be blamed on poor pilot training. In one of the crashes, the F/O had only 200 hours of flight time. That isn't 200 hours in the 737 or 200 hours with the carrier. It's 200 hours. His teenager had more than 200 hours behind the wheel with a learner's permit, before going to the DMV to take the road test. No one should be in the right-hand seat of a 737 with only 200 hours of flight time.

In the recent crash, my friend read that the pilot switched off the MCAS, and then switched it back on. He learned years ago that if you have to switch off an automation system because of a control issue, it stays off for the rest of the flight.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 5:31 pm

ckfred wrote:
I would get on a MAX right now. A good friend of mine is a 737 captain. He learned about the MAX on his last refresher training, and he's flown a MAX one time (a 45 minute flight that didn't give him a chance to decide the pluses and minuses versus the NG).

He thinks that crashes can be blamed on poor pilot training. In one of the crashes, the F/O had only 200 hours of flight time. That isn't 200 hours in the 737 or 200 hours with the carrier. It's 200 hours. His teenager had more than 200 hours behind the wheel with a learner's permit, before going to the DMV to take the road test. No one should be in the right-hand seat of a 737 with only 200 hours of flight time.

In the recent crash, my friend read that the pilot switched off the MCAS, and then switched it back on. He learned years ago that if you have to switch off an automation system because of a control issue, it stays off for the rest of the flight.


I'm a NG and MAX Captain and have flown the MAX quite a few hours. My companies 6 month refresher training is all focussed on MAX issues and everything to do with the horizontal and vertical stabiliser. Very interesting I can tell you.

And please stop the hour nonsense. Everybody has to learn. I started with 150hrs TOTAL time. It's normal in many places around the world. As long as the company your work for trains you properly and has a genuine safety and training ethos any hour requirement is non existant. 200hr or 20.000hrs total, in a 737 or A380 means nothing if not trained properly in a proper company.
 
planecane
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 6:11 pm

First of all, a survey like this is an asinine reason for an investment firm to downgrade a stock. A Boeing downgrade should be based on financial liability both in lawsuits and penalties they will have to pay airlines. Once the grounding is lifted, no airline will be able to stop taking deliveries due to a survey.

Second, for a survey like this to mean anything, the first question has to be for the respondent to name the aircraft involved in the recent crashes. They don't have to have the exact name but the answer needs to indicate that they have some idea what to even look for to avoid.

With respect to the survey, it makes a big difference how the question was asked. If it is something like, "I'm sure you've heard of the two recent crashes of the 737MAX that killed 346 people and led to it being grounded by authorities worldwide. If the 737MAX is allowed to return to service how long will you avoid flying on it for?" then it will lead to a lot of responses of avoiding it.

If the question is posed in a more neutral fashion that doesn't reference crashes or deaths the responses will be very different.

If Boeing were to rename/rebrand the MAX when the grounding is lifted, the number of people who even know they are on one will be very small.
 
9w748capt
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 6:18 pm

SEPilot wrote:
I would happily fly a MAX tomorrow if I could on any Western airline. I would not on a third world airline, except perhaps PR. After it is fixed I would board it on any airline that I would otherwise fly. Lion Air is not on that list.


Just curious - would you fly on a Miami Air 737? Despite reading the bigoted posts on this site on a daily basis, still amazes me to read nonsense like yours.
 
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SEPilot
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 6:23 pm

9w748capt wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
I would happily fly a MAX tomorrow if I could on any Western airline. I would not on a third world airline, except perhaps PR. After it is fixed I would board it on any airline that I would otherwise fly. Lion Air is not on that list.


Just curious - would you fly on a Miami Air 737? Despite reading the bigoted posts on this site on a daily basis, still amazes me to read nonsense like yours.

Miami Air is a charter operation, not a scheduled airline. I did not specifically say it, but I was referring to scheduled airlines. And why was my post nonsense? I was merely stating my opinion. Just because you may disagree does not make it nonsense.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
9w748capt
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 6:25 pm

SEPilot wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
I would happily fly a MAX tomorrow if I could on any Western airline. I would not on a third world airline, except perhaps PR. After it is fixed I would board it on any airline that I would otherwise fly. Lion Air is not on that list.


Just curious - would you fly on a Miami Air 737? Despite reading the bigoted posts on this site on a daily basis, still amazes me to read nonsense like yours.

Miami Air is a charter operation, not a scheduled airline. I did not specifically say it, but I was referring to scheduled airlines. And why was my post nonsense? I was merely stating my opinion. Just because you may disagree does not make it nonsense.


Fine. Would you fly on an Air France A330? Or an Asiana 777? Do you only fly on A330s or 777s only when they're "Western" operated? Is Air France western enough for you? Just curious.
 
IWMBH
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 6:31 pm

kalvado wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
“Will never fly the MAX again”
*sees that tickets on the MAX are 10% cheaper*
“Aah the MAX is fine, Boeing knows what it’s doing”

Yes of course. But with airlines' profit margin this can easy mean a difference between quarter in black. Or in red.


Maybe for some airlines, for some time. But remember that in Europe FR is often the cheapest anyway. And this effect won't last. The MAX is will be a black page in the Boeing history book, but not much more than that.

9w748capt wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

Just curious - would you fly on a Miami Air 737? Despite reading the bigoted posts on this site on a daily basis, still amazes me to read nonsense like yours.

Miami Air is a charter operation, not a scheduled airline. I did not specifically say it, but I was referring to scheduled airlines. And why was my post nonsense? I was merely stating my opinion. Just because you may disagree does not make it nonsense.


Fine. Would you fly on an Air France A330? Or an Asiana 777? Do you only fly on A330s or 777s only when they're "Western" operated? Is Air France western enough for you? Just curious.


^^ This. Crashes happen, both with western airlines and non-western airlines. There is absolutely no evidence these crashes wouldn't have happend on a - lets say -AA flight. Stop this nonsense, I think it disrespectful for the deceased crew.
 
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ODwyerPW
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 6:43 pm

morrisond wrote:
I was on an Westjet 737-800 just prior to the Grounding. The Emergency Procedure Card in the Seat back said 737-800/MAX
They will just change the Emergency procedures to say Boeing 737-8 instead of MAX - that will fool 99% of People.
I would be surprised if they aren't reprinting them now.


This. It is possible we will see allot of airlines back away from the MAX designation/branding and just say -7, -8, -9, -10. It will work. The public has short memory and attention spans.

Once grounding is lifted, and the dust settles a bit, we will also see a shake-up of upper management as well. You have to get rid of some of the old guard to convince people you really are shifting your priorities.
learning never stops.
 
bgm
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 9:30 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
I’d fly on it. Why not? I flew on DC10’s and lived to tell about it. People flew on the Concorde after a piece of metal brought it down.

One thing to keep in mind is that Boeing and the airlines are vested in moving on from this dark point. Just like our friend BGM is pushing one narrative, they’ll be pushing another. In the middle may be some great deals for the traveling public.


I'm perfectly happy for you to fly on it. ;)

For those that I know and care about (family/friends/colleagues), I would strongly caution them on flying on the MAX until it has proven itself for several years after it gets back in the air. It's not a narrative to question the safety of an aircraft that's crashed twice with 346 fatalities and has been grounded worldwide. If that makes you all butt hurt, then that's your problem, not mine.
████ ███ █ ███████ ██ █ █████ ██ ████ [redacted]
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 07, 2019 9:52 pm

bgm wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
I’d fly on it. Why not? I flew on DC10’s and lived to tell about it. People flew on the Concorde after a piece of metal brought it down.

One thing to keep in mind is that Boeing and the airlines are vested in moving on from this dark point. Just like our friend BGM is pushing one narrative, they’ll be pushing another. In the middle may be some great deals for the traveling public.


I'm perfectly happy for you to fly on it. ;)

For those that I know and care about (family/friends/colleagues), I would strongly caution them on flying on the MAX until it has proven itself for several years after it gets back in the air. It's not a narrative to question the safety of an aircraft that's crashed twice with 346 fatalities and has been grounded worldwide. If that makes you all butt hurt, then that's your problem, not mine.


I think it’s your over-personal response that’s the issue. I have no problem if you choose to fly on a given plane or not. I’ve stood up for people who have been ridiculed for feeling the same as you. The difference is they don’t make derogatory comments about their fellow forumites.

I’d have no problem flying on it because I believe they will get it right this time. I respect that you feel more cautious.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
FlyDeltaJetsATL
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Wed May 08, 2019 12:00 am

I'd definitely wait a while, a year sounds about right to me, to see if any more just crash themselves in that timeframe. Plenty of other more trustworthy / proven types to fly on. My last 737 flight was over 5 years and 50+ flight cycles ago so I probably wouldn't have a max in a potential itinerary to deal with anyway.

SEPilot wrote:
I would happily fly a MAX tomorrow if I could on any Western airline. I would not on a third world airline, except perhaps PR. After it is fixed I would board it on any airline that I would otherwise fly. Lion Air is not on that list.


This might have all been avoided if those Western manufacturers informed those third world airlines about all of those fancy safety critical additions to the new aircraft they purchased :roll:

Jesse
FLY DELTA JETS
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Wed May 08, 2019 1:43 am

What really counts is what people will choose if the aircraft type is displayed on the booking site. I’d bet that most people would choose the 757, A320, or MD-80/90 over the MAX.
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
DALMD80
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Wed May 08, 2019 1:00 pm

IADFCO wrote:
The fact that most "civilians" can't tell the difference between a MAX and an NG (I agree) may actually work in reverse: all 737 will be MAXes and therefore potential death traps (in the "civilians" minds).

Also the civilians will see scmitars on an -800 or -900 and think it's a MAX when really it's an -800 or -900. LOOK AT THE ENGINES.
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
DALMD80
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Wed May 08, 2019 1:02 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
What really counts is what people will choose if the aircraft type is displayed on the booking site. I’d bet that most people would choose the 757, A320, or MD-80/90 over the MAX.

I'd take a Mad Dog over anything, while they're still around.
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
SurlyBonds
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Thu May 09, 2019 12:33 am

boeingguy1 wrote:

In the end, 99% of the flying public can't tell what type of plane they are flying on without a safety card or announcement.


Please cite your source for your 99% statistic.
 
Astrodyne
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Thu May 09, 2019 1:28 am

IWMBH wrote:
“Will never fly the MAX again”
*sees that tickets on the MAX are 10% cheaper*
“Aah the MAX is fine, Boeing knows what it’s doing”


Nah here’s how it would go—

Passenger: I hope I don’t get one of those “Pepsi Max 37” planes…

Passenger: (Sees 737-800 MAX at gate)

Passenger: Oh nice! A 747!

:lol:
 
denkcflyer
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Thu May 09, 2019 1:43 am

As someone whose very interested/fascinated by aviation, but also a nervous flyer (I know, weird combo), I will probably wait a while before boarding a MAX. Granted I almost only fly Southwest, so it may be difficult. I trust Boeing will come up with a fix, but I don’t want to be the first one on the plane once the ban is lifted.
 
atomicstar
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Thu May 09, 2019 2:11 am

Astrodyne wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
“Will never fly the MAX again”
*sees that tickets on the MAX are 10% cheaper*
“Aah the MAX is fine, Boeing knows what it’s doing”


Nah here’s how it would go—

Passenger: I hope I don’t get one of those “Pepsi Max 37” planes…

Passenger: (Sees 737-800 MAX at gate)

Passenger: Oh nice! A 747!

:lol:


Well, the 747 is much distinguishable because there’s no other airplane that looks similar. Well LOL.

But the 737 will likely get rebranded, and when an average sees the airline booking info, they are likely not going to know that the rebranded name is the same as the 737 MAX.

If it doesn’t get rebranded, I have a feeling that airlines will put something like “737M”. Also, I doubt an average person who doesn’t know as much about aviation would be able to distinguish a 737 NG and 737 MAX, or likely not able to distinguish a 737 and A320 without looking at flight info.
 
ckfred
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Wed May 15, 2019 3:57 pm

When Toyota and Lexus cars had troubles with unintended acceleration, because of the accelerators were electronic, rather than connected to the engine via mechanical linkage, many people swore off all Toyota makes.

Yet, the Camry is still the best-selling car in the U.S., trailing only pick-ups and CUVs, including the RAV-4. The Corolla is 2 spots behind the Camry. Lexus outsells Cadillac and Lincoln and is very competitive with the German 3 (Audi, BMW, and M-B) in terms of luxury sales.

People will get over the MAX problems.
 
NWADTWE16
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Sun May 19, 2019 12:58 am

Faith has been LOST completely in Boeing and the FAA so those Travel departments you are so certain will not care, I assure you do. We were updating frequently on the status of the grounding, and now there is a policy in place where this aircraft (once flying) will NOT be forced upon a person. In other words, they will allow more cost to avoid the plane , if the employee wants to avoid the Max.

That, and the search engine info, coupled with Social Media, and the fact that no one at all has stepped down from that horrid company, will make this the biggest aircraft development mistake in our lifetimes (Which it is). It wont end for many years.
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MartijnNL
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Sun May 19, 2019 9:00 pm

ckfred wrote:
I would get on a MAX right now.

Unfortunately for you, but fortunate for the rest of us, the type is grounded. Probably for a long time.

ckfred wrote:
A good friend of mine is a 737 captain. (...) He thinks that crashes can be blamed on poor pilot training.

Other 737 pilots think something else. Did you happen to see the Australian 60 minutes episode about the MAX? In case you didn't, I suggest you do.

ckfred wrote:
In one of the crashes, the F/O had only 200 hours of flight time. That isn't 200 hours in the 737 or 200 hours with the carrier. It's 200 hours.

Not true. The F/O had 361 hours. And the captain 8,122 hours. That's absolutely more than enough. Please read some threads about the MAX. Many members, including professional pilots, have stated here that 200 hours is perfectly fine for an F/O. Only some American members are obsessed with a 1,500 hours minimum.

ckfred wrote:
No one should be in the right-hand seat of a 737 with only 200 hours of flight time.

No one should secretely install a system that takes crews by surprise and claimed the lives of 346 men, women and children.
 
KentB27
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Sun May 19, 2019 10:15 pm

Give it a few months after the grounding of the MAX series is lifted and most people won't even remember what a 737 MAX is. Give it a year or two after that and just about everyone except avgeeks and people directly affected by these unfortunate crashes will have forgotten about this entirely. The general public as a whole has an incredibly short memory when it comes to just about everything. Things will go back to normal pretty quickly once the grounding is lifted and most people's memory of this fades.
 
bgm
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Mon May 20, 2019 9:33 am

KentB27 wrote:
Give it a few months after the grounding of the MAX series is lifted and most people won't even remember what a 737 MAX is. Give it a year or two after that and just about everyone except avgeeks and people directly affected by these unfortunate crashes will have forgotten about this entirely. The general public as a whole has an incredibly short memory when it comes to just about everything. Things will go back to normal pretty quickly once the grounding is lifted and most people's memory of this fades.


The Boeing fanboys/Americans on this board keep spouting this mantra. You underestimate just how much coverage this has had. People are far less likely to forget when it's their or their loved one's lives on the line. Boeing came up with the catchy name MAX and it's stuck in people's heads for all the wrong reasons. I know many people who know nothing about aviation, but they are all acutely aware that the MAX is to be avoided. I know several companies who have waivers to allow their employees to avoid flying the MAX and for travel agents to prohibit booking on the MAX. The issue is much bigger than you're willing to admit.

If it does get re-certified, Boeing should rebrand it. That's if it gets back in the air (outside of the US anyway, of course the FAA will rubber stamp it, they're in bed with Boeing anyway).

The best solution would be for Boeing to buy back all the 737 MAXes, cancel the program, and go full steam on the 797 which would wipe the floor with the A320NEO. But they won't. Their focus is too short-term.
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acjbbj
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Mon May 20, 2019 1:46 pm

A lot of the people saying "Never" et cetera know nothing about aviation, soooooooo...
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blueflyer
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Mon May 20, 2019 1:59 pm

I wasn't previously aware that some passengers were panicking upon reading 737-800/Max safety cards (wasn't aware they were reading safety cards to begin with). I think what that shows is that passengers may not necessarily be intentionally looking for the type of equipment they're flying on, however if it is made obvious to them, they will factor it in their decision. It makes the case for re-branding the aircraft stronger, although it will come at the expense of a further (albeit I think short) pain to Boeing as it has to explain why it needs to re-brand the aircraft rather than convince passengers it is safe.

william wrote:
Posters are attacking a poll that's designed as click bait.

The poll was commissioned by an investment bank for internal use. Your outrage over fake outrage is.... fake. Thanks for playing!

FB330 wrote:
Don't under-estimate the impact from corporate travel departments.

Took three or four people to question the ethics of flying a certain Middle-East carrier in an internal newsletter to downgrade it from a preferred carrier to fly-only-if-no-other-option.

bgm wrote:
For those that I know and care about (family/friends/colleagues), I would strongly caution them on flying on the MAX until it has proven itself for several years after it gets back in the air..

Long as you caution them not to drive to the airport, or anywhere for that matter...
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william
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Mon May 20, 2019 2:05 pm

blueflyer wrote:
I wasn't previously aware that some passengers were panicking upon reading 737-800/Max safety cards (wasn't aware they were reading safety cards to begin with). I think what that shows is that passengers may not necessarily be intentionally looking for the type of equipment they're flying on, however if it is made obvious to them, they will factor it in their decision. It makes the case for re-branding the aircraft stronger, although it will come at the expense of a further (albeit I think short) pain to Boeing as it has to explain why it needs to re-brand the aircraft rather than convince passengers it is safe.

william wrote:
Posters are attacking a poll that's designed as click bait.

The poll was commissioned by an investment bank for internal use. Your outrage over fake outrage is.... fake. Thanks for playing!

FB330 wrote:
Don't under-estimate the impact from corporate travel departments.

Took three or four people to question the ethics of flying a certain Middle-East carrier in an internal newsletter to downgrade it from a preferred carrier to fly-only-if-no-other-option.

bgm wrote:
For those that I know and care about (family/friends/colleagues), I would strongly caution them on flying on the MAX until it has proven itself for several years after it gets back in the air..

Long as you caution them not to drive to the airport, or anywhere for that matter...


If what you state is true then SWA is in hot water. Yet, the last time I checked, SWA carried the most pax of any airline in the world and still fly them, and will continue when the MAX returns to the skies.

The only benefit the MAX grounding has given Boeing is that its no longer in the news cycle. If the end of summer return date stands, it will be even less of a story.
 
airnorth
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 21, 2019 8:11 pm

I think the Max will be the safest plane once the grounding is lifted, just due to the amount of reviews from all of the different authorities. I always thought that all jurisdictions did do their own reviews , but it seems that they all either follow the FAA or EASA lead, and rubber stamp it.
Having said that I would fly on a Max tomorrow. I also used to own one of those Audi's that suffered from unintended and explained acceleration, it all worked out fine.
My biggest fear is still either an onboard fire, or a failed engine somewhere over the pacific on the edge of ETOPS, on any brand or model of aircraft.
 
KentB27
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Tue May 21, 2019 11:14 pm

bgm wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
Give it a few months after the grounding of the MAX series is lifted and most people won't even remember what a 737 MAX is. Give it a year or two after that and just about everyone except avgeeks and people directly affected by these unfortunate crashes will have forgotten about this entirely. The general public as a whole has an incredibly short memory when it comes to just about everything. Things will go back to normal pretty quickly once the grounding is lifted and most people's memory of this fades.


The Boeing fanboys/Americans on this board keep spouting this mantra. You underestimate just how much coverage this has had. People are far less likely to forget when it's their or their loved one's lives on the line. Boeing came up with the catchy name MAX and it's stuck in people's heads for all the wrong reasons. I know many people who know nothing about aviation, but they are all acutely aware that the MAX is to be avoided. I know several companies who have waivers to allow their employees to avoid flying the MAX and for travel agents to prohibit booking on the MAX. The issue is much bigger than you're willing to admit.

If it does get re-certified, Boeing should rebrand it. That's if it gets back in the air (outside of the US anyway, of course the FAA will rubber stamp it, they're in bed with Boeing anyway).

The best solution would be for Boeing to buy back all the 737 MAXes, cancel the program, and go full steam on the 797 which would wipe the floor with the A320NEO. But they won't. Their focus is too short-term.


People said the same thing about the DC-10 when it was grounded. So many people swore that they'd never get on a DC-10 again. Maybe some of them were true to their word, but I bet that many of them were not. After the DC-10 was put back into service there was no such phenomenon of masses of people refusing to fly on them. There will always be the next big thing in current events that comes along and takes people's attention away from something fairly recent. Most people can't even be bothered to know to what type of aircraft they're actually flying on. It's not going to be an issue, and the few people that it is an issue for won't be hurting the airline's bottom line anyways. Somebody else will gladly take their spot if they won't set foot on a MAX. Or, they'll realize that if refusing to fly on MAX means that they're not going on their holiday that they paid good money for, they'll suck it up and fly on the MAX anyways despite their fears.
 
Osiris
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Sat May 25, 2019 7:14 am

crescent wrote:
The demographics was said to be a broad mix of age, income, travel frequencies. I imagine the only thing unique from the norms about the survey is including Europeans who may be biased for Airbus against Boeing.


Europeans are far less likely to do that. The whole blindly support X product/company, because they're from the same country as you is much more noticeable with Americans.

Also, polite reminder that Europe is a continent and not a country, so people from say Lithuania may have no affinity to products made from a company in France.
 
timh4000
Posts: 148
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Mon May 27, 2019 9:28 am

Personally I think too many of you downplay the average customer. No, they won't have the knowledge of an av geek, but I believe there are plenty of customers who fly a few times a year and can tell when they are on an Airbus vs. A Boeing.

Because of the media overhype, some will be leery to get on one and if it's a 737, they will quickly figure out if it's a max or not.

Me personally, I believe it will be the safest plane in the air, at least initially. Boeing can't afford to have another one go down due to a mechanical failure and pilots will be spending plenty of time in the sim. So it would actually be one of my 1st choices as far as safety goes, but when it comes to the legacy carriers, I have confidence in pretty much any thing they put in the air.
 
acinvestigator
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Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Mon May 27, 2019 10:46 am

I would fly on the first Max flight when she re-enters service, even if it was a Lion Air flight.

Cheers!
 
Aurantiaco
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 6:21 pm

Re: 44% say wont take MAX for a year?

Fri May 31, 2019 7:37 pm

This spells trouble for Southwest.

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