NCAD95
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Is Delta truly a one hub airline?

Fri May 10, 2019 1:25 pm

With Delta's system set up so that most of their connecting traffic flows over Atlanta does that not make it a one hub airline. Atlanta has the most unique destinations not served by it's other large operations unlike AA and UA who has flights from most of their 2nd and third tier cities connected to multiple hubs where Delta does not. While it has large operations at BOS, DTW, JFK, LGA, MSP, SLC and SEA those cities are more set up to capture O/D traffic rather than connecting traffic. While connections can be made at these other airports they really aren't full blown hub operations that are set up to primarily field connecting traffic like ORD, EWR and IAH are for UA and CLT, DFW, ORD and PHX are for AA. The only real market set up like that in the Delta network is ATL. With that being said while it works for Delta today is the plan viable long term as UA and AA chip away at the Delta market share in 2nd and 3rd tier cites where Delta for the most part only connects them to one of their sizable markets more often than not that being ATL.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sat May 11, 2019 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added correct punctuation
 
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phlsfo
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 1:32 pm

I would say DL is probably the least likely candidate to be considered a "one-hub" airline. There is plenty of connecting traffic through all of those hubs. Just because one is bigger than the rest doesn't mean the others don't matter.
 
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airzim
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 1:35 pm

MSP, DTW, and SLC are most definitely hubs. The local O&D traffic is minuscule compared to amount of passengers transiting.
JFK and SEA are mostly hubs in the sense of feeding long haul traffic due to geographic position and terminal constraints.
LAX, LGA, and BOS are more limited in their transit options, but still push a tremendous amount of connections over these stations.
Your premise is deeply flawed.
 
Themotionman
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 1:44 pm

"MSP, SLC and DTW are not really full blown hubs."

Under what definition are these not hubs?
 
jplatts
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 1:46 pm

DL is certainly not a one-hub airline as DL serves some regional destinations in the Pacific Northwest, Mountain West, Upper Midwest, and Northeast nonstop from other DL hubs but not from ATL.

DL has nonstop service from SEA to destinations in Asia, Alaska, Hawaii, and the Pacific Northwest that aren't served nonstop from ATL.

DL has nonstop service from SLC to smaller markets in the Mountain West, Pacific Northwest, and Hawaii that aren't served nonstop from ATL.

DL has nonstop service from MSP and DTW to some Upper Midwestern destinations that aren't served nonstop from ATL.

DL has nonstop service to Australia from its LAX hub, but not from any of its other hubs.

There are some European destinations that DL serves nonstop from JFK but not from ATL.
 
JAMBOJET
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 1:49 pm

Delta is a “disproportionately large in one hub” airline (relative to aa and UA) but certainly not a one hub carrier.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 1:53 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
Delta is a “disproportionately large in one hub” airline (relative to aa and UA) but certainly not a one hub carrier.

This.

ATL is impressive. It is amazing in connectivity.
I'll hub there this summer. My first time in years. From LAX, SLC, MSP, and DTW are more common. Sorry, LAX-SEA for TPAC? :rotfl:

Does anyone have the quantity of transit passengers at the DL hubs.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 1:54 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
While it has large operations at BOS, DTW, JFK, LGA, MSP, SLC and SEA those cities are more set up to capture O/D traffic rather than connecting traffic.


The O&D traffic reported for DTW (for example) is all carriers at DTW, not just DL (which obviously is more connecting traffic). DTW and MSP both have significant connecting traffic. Along with ATL, DFW and IAH, DTW and MSP are among the top 30 O&D airports with the largest fractions of connecting traffic. Tyhey are NOT 'set up to capture O/D traffic rather than connecting traffic.' Neither could have anywhere its frequency or non-stop destination count on O&D traffic.

If you had better command of objective facts you might be less likely to go down rabbit holes of misinformation.

The O&D Ranking (bottom right, hyperlink download) from this MCO Airport stats page has O&D and connecting counts.

https://orlandoairports.net/about-us/
 
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qfs
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:15 pm

jplatts wrote:
DL has nonstop service to Australia from its LAX hub, but not from any of its other hubs.

There are some European destinations that DL serves nonstop from JFK but not from ATL.


I wouldn't consider LAX a hub for Delta, especially when you compare it to SEA, SLC, MSP, & DTW. Delta is LAX's 2nd highest carrier after AA. JFK could probably fall into the hub category because their presence at JFK is larger than JetBlue's.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:17 pm

Have you seen Deltas profits compared to those airlines you mention? No way are UA and AA chipping away at them. Those airlines are trying to be more like Delta. Not a Delta Fanboy just reality. Delta has the legacy model down to a science right now to maximize profits.

ORD,EWR, MIA, SFO are for the most part competitive markets fare-wise and VERY expensive to connect people thru in mass numbers. Delta connects people much cheaper and rakes in huge $$$$ on connections.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:28 pm

MIflyer12, thank you for the link, a direct to the pdf:
https://orlandoairports.net/site/uploads/OandD_Rank.pdf

I haven't finished the math, but it looks like ATL is over half of DL's hubbing. Huh...
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evanb
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:35 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
With Delta's system set up so that most of their connecting traffic flows over Atlanta does that not make it a one hub airline. Atlanta has the most unique destinations not served by it's other large operations unlike AA and UA who has flights from most of their 2nd and third tier cities connected to multiple hubs where Delta does not. While it has large operations at BOS, DTW, JFK, LGA, MSP, SLC and SEA those cities are more set up to capture O/D traffic rather than connecting traffic. While connections can be made at these other airports they really aren't full blown hub operations that are set up to primarily field connecting traffic like ORD, EWR and IAH are for UA and CLT, DFW, ORD and PHX are for AA. The only real market set up like that in the Delta network is ATL. With that being said while it works for Delta today is the plan viable long term as UA and AA chip away at the Delta market share in 2nd and 3rd tier cites where Delta for the most part only connects them to one of their sizable markets more often than not that being ATL.


Are you arguing that those four daily DTW-AMS, two daily DTW-CDG, two daily DTW-LHR and daily DTW-FRA are just serving O&D Detroit-Europe? Are daily DTW-NRT, daily DTW-NGO, daily DTW-ICN, daily DTW-PEK and daily DTW-PVG just capturing O&D Detroit-Asia?

Same for the three daily MSP-AMS, daily MSP-AMS and daily MSP-LHR? Same for daily MSP-ICN and daily MSP-HND?
 
tphuang
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:41 pm

DL is definitely not a one hub airline.

But I would say this, that one ATL hub is equivalent to 2 or 3 fortress hubs for any other carrier. If I was given the choice of having DL's ATL operation vs AA's DFW and CLT operation or UA's ORD and IAH operation, it would be a hard call, but I'd probably rather have ATL rather than AA/UA's top 2 hubs.
 
SESGDL
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:41 pm

airzim wrote:
MSP, DTW, and SLC are most definitely hubs. The local O&D traffic is minuscule compared to amount of passengers transiting.
JFK and SEA are mostly hubs in the sense of feeding long haul traffic due to geographic position and terminal constraints.
LAX, LGA, and BOS are more limited in their transit options, but still push a tremendous amount of connections over these stations.
Your premise is deeply flawed.


The first part of your statement is completely false. MSP, DTW and SLC are all majority O&D operations for DL. Less than half of all passengers are transiting at these hubs.

Jeremy
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:46 pm

qfs wrote:
I wouldn't consider LAX a hub for Delta, especially when you compare it to SEA, SLC, MSP, & DTW. Delta is LAX's 2nd highest carrier after AA. JFK could probably fall into the hub category because their presence at JFK is larger than JetBlue's.


Despite lots of debate on a.net, I'm not sure there is a Generally Accepted criteria to be called a hub. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, I suppose we should just accept whatever the airline considers it to be.

I think of JFK (and to a lesser extent BOS and LAX) as "gateways" to connect with Int'l flights. I know they serve domestic connections as well, but both of those are airports I would not "choose" to connect domestically through and geographically they aren't ideal for domestic connections. LGA is also considered a hub by DL and I would never connect through there.

I would say AA in MIA is in a similar boat. Sure you could connect there domestically, but unless you're going to/from Florida, you're likely going way out of the way.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
SESGDL
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:46 pm

qfs wrote:
jplatts wrote:
DL has nonstop service to Australia from its LAX hub, but not from any of its other hubs.

There are some European destinations that DL serves nonstop from JFK but not from ATL.


I wouldn't consider LAX a hub for Delta, especially when you compare it to SEA, SLC, MSP, & DTW. Delta is LAX's 2nd highest carrier after AA. JFK could probably fall into the hub category because their presence at JFK is larger than JetBlue's.


DL's operation at LAX is larger than its operation at SEA. LAX is most definitely a hub for DL, in both name and function.

Jeremy
 
SESGDL
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:48 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
qfs wrote:
I wouldn't consider LAX a hub for Delta, especially when you compare it to SEA, SLC, MSP, & DTW. Delta is LAX's 2nd highest carrier after AA. JFK could probably fall into the hub category because their presence at JFK is larger than JetBlue's.


Despite lots of debate on a.net, I'm not sure there is a Generally Accepted criteria to be called a hub. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, I suppose we should just accept whatever the airline considers it to be.

I think of JFK (and to a lesser extent BOS and LAX) as "gateways" to connect with Int'l flights. I know they serve domestic connections as well, but both of those are airports I would not "choose" to connect domestically through and geographically they aren't ideal for domestic connections. LGA is also considered a hub by DL and I would never connect through there.

I would say AA in MIA is in a similar boat. Sure you could connect there domestically, but unless you're going to/from Florida, you're likely going way out of the way.


To say that MIA is not a hub for AA de-legitimizes a lot of what you previously stated. If that's not a hub, then of course JFK/LGA and a lot of other airports aren't hubs. JFK is a DL hub, LAX is a DL hub, and MIA is most certainly an AA hub, one of the largest, in fact. People don't get to pick and choose based on the fact that they wouldn't want to connect there.

Jeremy
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:52 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Have you seen Deltas profits compared to those airlines you mention? No way are UA and AA chipping away at them. Those airlines are trying to be more like Delta. Not a Delta Fanboy just reality. Delta has the legacy model down to a science right now to maximize profits.

ORD,EWR, MIA, SFO are for the most part competitive markets fare-wise and VERY expensive to connect people thru in mass numbers. Delta connects people much cheaper and rakes in huge $$$$ on connections.

It can not be underestimated how much pass-thru fees affect profits on connections. Atl and SLC are likely the lowest costs per head in the country.
 
B752OS
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 2:58 pm

jplatts wrote:
DL is certainly not a one-hub airline as DL serves some regional destinations in the Pacific Northwest, Mountain West, Upper Midwest, and Northeast nonstop from other DL hubs but not from ATL.

DL has nonstop service from SEA to destinations in Asia, Alaska, Hawaii, and the Pacific Northwest that aren't served nonstop from ATL.

DL has nonstop service from SLC to smaller markets in the Mountain West, Pacific Northwest, and Hawaii that aren't served nonstop from ATL.

DL has nonstop service from MSP and DTW to some Upper Midwestern destinations that aren't served nonstop from ATL.

DL has nonstop service to Australia from its LAX hub, but not from any of its other hubs.

There are some European destinations that DL serves nonstop from JFK but not from ATL.


That's a nice list. You can also add that DL serves some European destinations non-stop from BOS that it doesn't from ATL. Their new seasonal service to EDI and LIS.
 
SFOtoORD
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 3:01 pm

This thread is fake news. ATL is kind of the one super hub to rule them all, but it doesn’t make DL a one hub airline.
 
FSDan
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 3:03 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
With Delta's system set up so that most of their connecting traffic flows over Atlanta does that not make it a one hub airline. Atlanta has the most unique destinations not served by it's other large operations unlike AA and UA who has flights from most of their 2nd and third tier cities connected to multiple hubs where Delta does not. While it has large operations at BOS, DTW, JFK, LGA, MSP, SLC and SEA those cities are more set up to capture O/D traffic rather than connecting traffic. While connections can be made at these other airports they really aren't full blown hub operations that are set up to primarily field connecting traffic like ORD, EWR and IAH are for UA and CLT, DFW, ORD and PHX are for AA. The only real market set up like that in the Delta network is ATL. With that being said while it works for Delta today is the plan viable long term as UA and AA chip away at the Delta market share in 2nd and 3rd tier cites where Delta for the most part only connects them to one of their sizable markets more often than not that being ATL.


You speak with confidence, but you don't seem to know DL's network very well... While ATL is massive and has easily the most connecting traffic of any DL hub, MSP, DTW, and SLC in particular serve many unique destinations that aren't served from ATL, and are very much connecting hubs (look at the O&D stats for MSP, DTW, and SLC vs some of the other hubs you named such as EWR and PHX). If you look at the schedules for MSP, DTW, and SLC, you'll see that there are very distinct connecting banks throughout the day, designed precisely to facilitate connections. You can't lump these three hubs together with SEA, LGA, and BOS and try to label them all the same way.

Just for fun, here's a list off the top of my head of the domestic destinations served by SLC, MSP, and DTW, but not ATL:
FAI (MSP)
PSC (SLC, MSP)
GEG (SLC, MSP)
EUG (SLC)
MFR (SLC)
RDM (SLC)
LWS (SLC)
BOI (SLC, MSP)
SUN (SLC)
TWF (SLC)
PIH (SLC)
IDA (SLC, MSP)
GTF (SLC, MSP)
HLN (SLC, MSP)
BTM (SLC)
WYS (SLC)
BIL (SLC, MSP)
COD (SLC)
CPR (SLC)
FAT (SLC)
SBA (SLC, coming soon)
LGB (SLC)
EKO (SLC)
SGU (SLC)
CDC (SLC)
GJT (SLC)
HRL (MSP)
ABR (MSP)
ISN (MSP)
MOT (MSP)
BIS (MSP)
GFK (MSP)
INL (MSP)
BJI (MSP)
HIB (MSP)
DLH (MSP)
BRD (MSP)
MQT (MSP, DTW)
IMT (MSP, DTW)
ESC (DTW)
CIU (MSP, DTW)
RHI (MSP)
CWA (MSP, DTW)
LSE (MSP, DTW)
AZO (MSP, DTW)
LAN (MSP, DTW)
PLN (DTW)
APN (DTW)
MBS (MSP, DTW)
ERI (DTW)
SCE (DTW)
ELM (DTW)
ITH (DTW)
BGM (DTW)
SWF (DTW)
ORH (DTW, coming soon)
BGR (DTW)
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spinotter
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 3:14 pm

SESGDL wrote:
airzim wrote:
MSP, DTW, and SLC are most definitely hubs. The local O&D traffic is minuscule compared to amount of passengers transiting.
JFK and SEA are mostly hubs in the sense of feeding long haul traffic due to geographic position and terminal constraints.
LAX, LGA, and BOS are more limited in their transit options, but still push a tremendous amount of connections over these stations.
Your premise is deeply flawed.


The first part of your statement is completely false. MSP, DTW and SLC are all majority O&D operations for DL. Less than half of all passengers are transiting at these hubs.

Jeremy


Where can we get accurate total and O&D passenger figures? DTW and MSP had more flights and more destinations in the NW era than now, isn't that true? ATL certainly siphoned some traffic off from these two hubs. But from the quarterly profit figures, I think DL has something figured out pretty well.
 
AAflyguy
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 3:15 pm

lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12, thank you for the link, a direct to the pdf:
https://orlandoairports.net/site/uploads/OandD_Rank.pdf

I haven't finished the math, but it looks like ATL is over half of DL's hubbing. Huh...


I look at it the other way. What I’m impressed by is that ATL is 40% O&D, meaning over 40M local passengers of the 107M served last year. And the total pax number is going up while O&D grows and I’ve heard ATL expects it to get into the mid-40% range by 2025 due to the continued strong population growth and heating business, and Meetings & Convention climate in the Metro Area. Guess that’s why there are so many improvement projects on the landside and adding gates to Conc T plus lengthening the PlaneTrain tracks bit further so they can shorten the headway time between trains. They’re trying to get ahead of it. Pax traffic is likely to be between 115-120M by then so we are talking over 50M O&D. There are not many U.S. airports with 50M TOTAL passengers, let alone just the O&D portion. But, yeah, DL also connects a lot of pax via ATL. This is true.

AAflyguy
 
berari
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 3:17 pm

This about BA and LHR. That's a one hub airline. Now compare BA to DL.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 3:18 pm

As someone based at DCA I can say absolutely not in my opinion. If I'm heading to the west coast DL offers the most attractive routings through MSP and DTW. I can often get a great fare on a F ticket to LAX or SJC/SFO. My last trip to FRA I routed through DTW. I've also routed through JFK. I've never taken a long-haul international flight from ATL.

SLC is a great hub for DL as well and will be even better when the new terminal is complete. If you're mainly flying around the west coast and Rocky Mountains, SLC is DL's hub.

I will say ATL is one of the most efficiently run hubs I've ever seen, but DL in general is good at running their operations. I say this coming from years of TWA, AA and NWA.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 3:18 pm

Let's take XNA as an example:

Delta has 'hubs' at LAX, SLC and SEA

The only viable options of flying west on Delta involves backtracking to ATL or a due north flight to MSP. AA flies direct to LAX and offers connecting at DFW. United flies San Fran direct with connecting done at ever expanding DEN.

Delta's A220's make an excellent plane For XNA/LAX. American currently is running 2 flights a day during the week on a regional at 76 seata each for 152 total. Delta, methinks could easily knock that back to 1 flight with a 108 seater mainline product for this business minded airport. Even pull some from UA's SFO flight for Trans Pac traffic. It baffles my mind over their hardheadedness to funnel damn near everything via ATL.
 
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yeogeo
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 3:20 pm

lightsaber wrote:
ATL is impressive. It is amazing in connectivity.

True, but not as amazing in connectivity as (according to OAG) LHR/ORD/FRA/AMS/YYZ & LAX. But don't get me wrong, 7th in the world ain't bad at all.
https://www.oag.com/megahubs-internatio ... cc6c7e0e24
...and before I hear howls of protest from the peach state, yes, ATL still is #1 in pax and #2 in movements; impressive indeed!
 
winginit
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 3:23 pm

This is going to be one of those threads where OP sneaks away and is never heard from again isn't it...
 
strfyr51
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 3:55 pm

tphuang wrote:
DL is definitely not a one hub airline.

But I would say this, that one ATL hub is equivalent to 2 or 3 fortress hubs for any other carrier. If I was given the choice of having DL's ATL operation vs AA's DFW and CLT operation or UA's ORD and IAH operation, it would be a hard call, but I'd probably rather have ATL rather than AA/UA's top 2 hubs.

NO Way!!! Delta has Atlanta because they couldn't hang with AA at DFW and closed their hub, with hubs at IAD,ORD, DEN, SFO, and LAX, even Before the CO Merger which added EWR and IAH. UA had one of the strongest Hub systems in the Nation.. That Delta is doing well with the hubs they have is commendable, BUT!! Those are Focus Cities at best. DTW and MSP are good traffic centers for sure But SLC? YGBSM! They Had a building hub at SEA via NW and they closed it! Now they're clawing their way back in but AS is there fully entrenched. Delta is in Fits and starts in the Pacific as they concentrated on Europe. Good move or Bad move? I can't say. But they seem to be doing OK. I wouldn't say they're raising Hell. United an American Both had their share of troubles,( mostly by their own hands) and this put them behind Delta for sure. But Delta in any real heads up? isn't out-distancing anybody. Certainly not United and American would be coming up were it not for the picayune senior management from USAir. which shows why USAir was an "Also-ran" Airline that didn't get any better even with the mergers of Piedmont, Pacific Southwest, and America 0West. And NOW? They're bringing that same thinking to American! Were I on the AA BOD?
I'd be beating the bushes to find the management teams I let GO!! Because I can tell you this. Those guys they let GO? Are running United with a vengeance!!
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 4:23 pm

FSDan wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:
With Delta's system set up so that most of their connecting traffic flows over Atlanta does that not make it a one hub airline. Atlanta has the most unique destinations not served by it's other large operations unlike AA and UA who has flights from most of their 2nd and third tier cities connected to multiple hubs where Delta does not. While it has large operations at BOS, DTW, JFK, LGA, MSP, SLC and SEA those cities are more set up to capture O/D traffic rather than connecting traffic. While connections can be made at these other airports they really aren't full blown hub operations that are set up to primarily field connecting traffic like ORD, EWR and IAH are for UA and CLT, DFW, ORD and PHX are for AA. The only real market set up like that in the Delta network is ATL. With that being said while it works for Delta today is the plan viable long term as UA and AA chip away at the Delta market share in 2nd and 3rd tier cites where Delta for the most part only connects them to one of their sizable markets more often than not that being ATL.


You speak with confidence, but you don't seem to know DL's network very well... While ATL is massive and has easily the most connecting traffic of any DL hub, MSP, DTW, and SLC in particular serve many unique destinations that aren't served from ATL, and are very much connecting hubs (look at the O&D stats for MSP, DTW, and SLC vs some of the other hubs you named such as EWR and PHX). If you look at the schedules for MSP, DTW, and SLC, you'll see that there are very distinct connecting banks throughout the day, designed precisely to facilitate connections. You can't lump these three hubs together with SEA, LGA, and BOS and try to label them all the same way.

Just for fun, here's a list off the top of my head of the domestic destinations served by SLC, MSP, and DTW, but not ATL:
FAI (MSP)
PSC (SLC, MSP)
GEG (SLC, MSP)
EUG (SLC)
MFR (SLC)
RDM (SLC)
LWS (SLC)
BOI (SLC, MSP)
SUN (SLC)
TWF (SLC)
PIH (SLC)
IDA (SLC, MSP)
GTF (SLC, MSP)
HLN (SLC, MSP)
BTM (SLC)
WYS (SLC)
BIL (SLC, MSP)
COD (SLC)
CPR (SLC)
FAT (SLC)
SBA (SLC, coming soon)
LGB (SLC)
EKO (SLC)
SGU (SLC)
CDC (SLC)
GJT (SLC)
HRL (MSP)
ABR (MSP)
ISN (MSP)
MOT (MSP)
BIS (MSP)
GFK (MSP)
INL (MSP)
BJI (MSP)
HIB (MSP)
DLH (MSP)
BRD (MSP)
MQT (MSP, DTW)
IMT (MSP, DTW)
ESC (DTW)
CIU (MSP, DTW)
RHI (MSP)
CWA (MSP, DTW)
LSE (MSP, DTW)
AZO (MSP, DTW)
LAN (MSP, DTW)
PLN (DTW)
APN (DTW)
MBS (MSP, DTW)
ERI (DTW)
SCE (DTW)
ELM (DTW)
ITH (DTW)
BGM (DTW)
SWF (DTW)
ORH (DTW, coming soon)
BGR (DTW)


Great list. Isn’t OGG on the list too? Does DL still do SLC-OGG?

A few of these may be candidates to be served from ATL now that DL has the A220.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2083
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 4:27 pm

SESGDL wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
qfs wrote:
I wouldn't consider LAX a hub for Delta, especially when you compare it to SEA, SLC, MSP, & DTW. Delta is LAX's 2nd highest carrier after AA. JFK could probably fall into the hub category because their presence at JFK is larger than JetBlue's.


Despite lots of debate on a.net, I'm not sure there is a Generally Accepted criteria to be called a hub. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, I suppose we should just accept whatever the airline considers it to be.

I think of JFK (and to a lesser extent BOS and LAX) as "gateways" to connect with Int'l flights. I know they serve domestic connections as well, but both of those are airports I would not "choose" to connect domestically through and geographically they aren't ideal for domestic connections. LGA is also considered a hub by DL and I would never connect through there.

I would say AA in MIA is in a similar boat. Sure you could connect there domestically, but unless you're going to/from Florida, you're likely going way out of the way.


To say that MIA is not a hub for AA de-legitimizes a lot of what you previously stated. If that's not a hub, then of course JFK/LGA and a lot of other airports aren't hubs. JFK is a DL hub, LAX is a DL hub, and MIA is most certainly an AA hub, one of the largest, in fact. People don't get to pick and choose based on the fact that they wouldn't want to connect there.

Jeremy


I guess you didn't read where I said: (bolded above). smh. And I never said it wasn't a hub, I just said I don't consider it a viable option for domestic connections unless going to/from FL. I still stand by that.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
codc10
Posts: 2507
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 4:31 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
qfs wrote:
I wouldn't consider LAX a hub for Delta, especially when you compare it to SEA, SLC, MSP, & DTW. Delta is LAX's 2nd highest carrier after AA. JFK could probably fall into the hub category because their presence at JFK is larger than JetBlue's.


Despite lots of debate on a.net, I'm not sure there is a Generally Accepted criteria to be called a hub. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter, I suppose we should just accept whatever the airline considers it to be.

I think of JFK (and to a lesser extent BOS and LAX) as "gateways" to connect with Int'l flights. I know they serve domestic connections as well, but both of those are airports I would not "choose" to connect domestically through and geographically they aren't ideal for domestic connections. LGA is also considered a hub by DL and I would never connect through there.

I would say AA in MIA is in a similar boat. Sure you could connect there domestically, but unless you're going to/from Florida, you're likely going way out of the way.


Hubs with banked schedules or multiple connecting complexes (with a rolling schedule) throughout the day are certainly a different breed, nobody will dispute that ATL, ORD, DFW, IAH, DEN, CLT, DTW, etc. are hubs. Besides that, once over 100 or so daily departures, I have a hard time defining an airline/airport combo as anything less than a hub. That's why DL at JFK/LGA, UA at LAX, AA at MIA are definitely hubs, in my view, but something like DL at RDU or the former UA operation at MIA wouldn't be. "Focus cities" to me are more O&D-oriented, while gateways might have some connecting structures but are generally set up to feed a limited geography.
 
Sightseer
Posts: 928
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:04 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 4:34 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
DL is definitely not a one hub airline.

But I would say this, that one ATL hub is equivalent to 2 or 3 fortress hubs for any other carrier. If I was given the choice of having DL's ATL operation vs AA's DFW and CLT operation or UA's ORD and IAH operation, it would be a hard call, but I'd probably rather have ATL rather than AA/UA's top 2 hubs.

NO Way!!! Delta has Atlanta because they couldn't hang with AA at DFW and closed their hub, with hubs at IAD,ORD, DEN, SFO, and LAX, even Before the CO Merger which added EWR and IAH. UA had one of the strongest Hub systems in the Nation.

I think you missed the part where tphuang was explicitly comparing Delta at ATL to AA at DFW/CLT and UA at ORD/IAH, not DL's entire network to AA and UA's entire networks.

strfyr51 wrote:
That Delta is doing well with the hubs they have is commendable, BUT!! Those are Focus Cities at best.

So airports with 450 flights are now focus cities? That's a new one.

strfyr51 wrote:
But they seem to be doing OK. I wouldn't say they're raising Hell. United an American Both had their share of troubles,( mostly by their own hands) and this put them behind Delta for sure. But Delta in any real heads up? isn't out-distancing anybody.

If DL is "doing OK" then how would you say AA and UA are doing? Honest question. And I take it you don't think there's been a "real heads up" among the US3 as of late, since otherwise, in your head, there's no way DL should be doing as comparatively well as it has. I do think that, on paper, UA has a "prettier" route network than DL or AA, but that alone doesn't make an airline better or more profitable than its competitors.

Anyway, to answer the OP's question, no, DL is not objectively even close to being a one-hub airline. Are they closer than AA or UA? Absolutely. But still, in no way are they "truly a one hub airline." Those would be airlines like EK/CX/KL.
 
FSDan
Posts: 2498
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 4:35 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
FSDan wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:
With Delta's system set up so that most of their connecting traffic flows over Atlanta does that not make it a one hub airline. Atlanta has the most unique destinations not served by it's other large operations unlike AA and UA who has flights from most of their 2nd and third tier cities connected to multiple hubs where Delta does not. While it has large operations at BOS, DTW, JFK, LGA, MSP, SLC and SEA those cities are more set up to capture O/D traffic rather than connecting traffic. While connections can be made at these other airports they really aren't full blown hub operations that are set up to primarily field connecting traffic like ORD, EWR and IAH are for UA and CLT, DFW, ORD and PHX are for AA. The only real market set up like that in the Delta network is ATL. With that being said while it works for Delta today is the plan viable long term as UA and AA chip away at the Delta market share in 2nd and 3rd tier cites where Delta for the most part only connects them to one of their sizable markets more often than not that being ATL.


You speak with confidence, but you don't seem to know DL's network very well... While ATL is massive and has easily the most connecting traffic of any DL hub, MSP, DTW, and SLC in particular serve many unique destinations that aren't served from ATL, and are very much connecting hubs (look at the O&D stats for MSP, DTW, and SLC vs some of the other hubs you named such as EWR and PHX). If you look at the schedules for MSP, DTW, and SLC, you'll see that there are very distinct connecting banks throughout the day, designed precisely to facilitate connections. You can't lump these three hubs together with SEA, LGA, and BOS and try to label them all the same way.

Just for fun, here's a list off the top of my head of the domestic destinations served by SLC, MSP, and DTW, but not ATL:
FAI (MSP)
PSC (SLC, MSP)
GEG (SLC, MSP)
EUG (SLC)
MFR (SLC)
RDM (SLC)
LWS (SLC)
BOI (SLC, MSP)
SUN (SLC)
TWF (SLC)
PIH (SLC)
IDA (SLC, MSP)
GTF (SLC, MSP)
HLN (SLC, MSP)
BTM (SLC)
WYS (SLC)
BIL (SLC, MSP)
COD (SLC)
CPR (SLC)
FAT (SLC)
SBA (SLC, coming soon)
LGB (SLC)
EKO (SLC)
SGU (SLC)
CDC (SLC)
GJT (SLC)
HRL (MSP)
ABR (MSP)
ISN (MSP)
MOT (MSP)
BIS (MSP)
GFK (MSP)
INL (MSP)
BJI (MSP)
HIB (MSP)
DLH (MSP)
BRD (MSP)
MQT (MSP, DTW)
IMT (MSP, DTW)
ESC (DTW)
CIU (MSP, DTW)
RHI (MSP)
CWA (MSP, DTW)
LSE (MSP, DTW)
AZO (MSP, DTW)
LAN (MSP, DTW)
PLN (DTW)
APN (DTW)
MBS (MSP, DTW)
ERI (DTW)
SCE (DTW)
ELM (DTW)
ITH (DTW)
BGM (DTW)
SWF (DTW)
ORH (DTW, coming soon)
BGR (DTW)


Great list. Isn’t OGG on the list too? Does DL still do SLC-OGG?

A few of these may be candidates to be served from ATL now that DL has the A220.


Good call - OGG is seasonally served from SLC.
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FSDan
Posts: 2498
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 4:44 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Delta has Atlanta because they couldn't hang with AA at DFW


Laughable. ATL has been the center of Delta's universe for a long, long time.

strfyr51 wrote:
That Delta is doing well with the hubs they have is commendable, BUT!! Those are Focus Cities at best. DTW and MSP are good traffic centers for sure But SLC? YGBSM!


Ever tried looking up what other major destinations are within an 8 hour drive of SLC? Salt Lake City is a smaller city than most other airline hubs (and yes, it's most definitely a hub), but it's very isolated and therefore punches far above its weight as far as air travel goes.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 8876
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 4:56 pm

Here is the truth about Atlanta as a hub. It is within a two hour flight of 80% of the population, and has one of the most efficient terminal layouts (for planes) and space on the East coast.

Atlanta meets the needs of many people in smaller towns across the south , east, and midwest in making connecting flights. There is no doubt other hubs are smaller, but no other hubs are in such great locations without serious competition.


Delta is not a one hub airline by any means. They have efficient hubs around the world for moving traffic. They also have serious concentrations of Focus Cities where they do a lot of O&D. To say that Delta is a one hub airline is like saying Apple is only about the Iphone.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
NCAD95
Topic Author
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:11 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 5:02 pm

While all this maybe true here is the thing. Any routes Delta has added for sometime now have not be geared towards connections other than the adds made in ATL. Unlike AA and UA have been adding routes right and left to make their network more accessible while Delta has done the opposite. Delta's growth has been of the O/D nature and any connection opportunities have been only added at ATL. The other adds that loosely resemble connection opportunities operational bases are either just one flight a day or they were bought and paid for by the airports who want more connectivity to the Delta network.
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 5:04 pm

AAflyguy wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
MIflyer12, thank you for the link, a direct to the pdf:
https://orlandoairports.net/site/uploads/OandD_Rank.pdf

I haven't finished the math, but it looks like ATL is over half of DL's hubbing. Huh...


I look at it the other way. What I’m impressed by is that ATL is 40% O&D, meaning over 40M local passengers of the 107M served last year. And the total pax number is going up while O&D grows and I’ve heard ATL expects it to get into the mid-40% range by 2025 due to the continued strong population growth and heating business, and Meetings & Convention climate in the Metro Area. Guess that’s why there are so many improvement projects on the landside and adding gates to Conc T plus lengthening the PlaneTrain tracks bit further so they can shorten the headway time between trains. They’re trying to get ahead of it. Pax traffic is likely to be between 115-120M by then so we are talking over 50M O&D. There are not many U.S. airports with 50M TOTAL passengers, let alone just the O&D portion. But, yeah, DL also connects a lot of pax via ATL. This is true.

AAflyguy


But let's put this in context:

% of connecting vs. overall traffic, 2017 (includes ALL traffic, not just airline hub-specific):
1. CLT 70.0%
2. ATL 62.6%
3. DFW 55.2%
4. IAH 52.8%
5. ORD 44.6%
6. MIA 41.6%
7. DTW 41.2%
8. IAD 39.2%
9. MSP 38.1%
10. SLC 37.6%

viewtopic.php?t=1409283

While it's true ATL has lots of O/D traffic, it's also true that 70% - 75% of DL's traffic is connecting via ATL, a far disproportionate clip vs. DTW, MSP and SLC which are somewhere around 45% - 50%. Yes, ATL has more O/D than DTW, MSP & SLC combined, but the size of the hub goes beyond that...in other words, statistics don't support the assertions made here.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 5:15 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
While all this maybe true here is the thing. Any routes Delta has added for sometime now have not be geared towards connections other than the adds made in ATL. Unlike AA and UA have been adding routes right and left to make their network more accessible while Delta has done the opposite. Delta's growth has been of the O/D nature and any connection opportunities have been only added at ATL. The other adds that loosely resemble connection opportunities operational bases are either just one flight a day or they were bought and paid for by the airports who want more connectivity to the Delta network.


That's not quite accurate. DL's been shying away from the short haul flights from its hubs to "secondary" markets that AA & UA have been adding on 50-seaters, labeling them as unprofitable, but the adds it is making are targeting a mixture of local and connecting traffic. E.g. No way would SLC-CMH survive on its own without feed.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 2098
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 5:15 pm

Sitting in MSP right now on a connection PDX-MSP-CMH.
I’ve flown through this airport countless times, and twice stopped in the city.

Pure and total guess is an airport like this is 40% O&D, 60% connections.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2814
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 5:29 pm

BlatantEcho wrote:
Sitting in MSP right now on a connection PDX-MSP-CMH.
I’ve flown through this airport countless times, and twice stopped in the city.

Pure and total guess is an airport like this is 40% O&D, 60% connections.


Given that there have been a few posts already that show actual numbers, flip those and you're in the ballpark.

Jeremy
 
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spinotter
Posts: 519
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 5:46 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
DL is definitely not a one hub airline.

But I would say this, that one ATL hub is equivalent to 2 or 3 fortress hubs for any other carrier. If I was given the choice of having DL's ATL operation vs AA's DFW and CLT operation or UA's ORD and IAH operation, it would be a hard call, but I'd probably rather have ATL rather than AA/UA's top 2 hubs.

NO Way!!! Delta has Atlanta because they couldn't hang with AA at DFW and closed their hub, with hubs at IAD,ORD, DEN, SFO, and LAX, even Before the CO Merger which added EWR and IAH. UA had one of the strongest Hub systems in the Nation.. That Delta is doing well with the hubs they have is commendable, BUT!! Those are Focus Cities at best. DTW and MSP are good traffic centers for sure But SLC? YGBSM! They Had a building hub at SEA via NW and they closed it! Now they're clawing their way back in but AS is there fully entrenched. Delta is in Fits and starts in the Pacific as they concentrated on Europe. Good move or Bad move? I can't say. But they seem to be doing OK. I wouldn't say they're raising Hell. United an American Both had their share of troubles,( mostly by their own hands) and this put them behind Delta for sure. But Delta in any real heads up? isn't out-distancing anybody. Certainly not United and American would be coming up were it not for the picayune senior management from USAir. which shows why USAir was an "Also-ran" Airline that didn't get any better even with the mergers of Piedmont, Pacific Southwest, and America 0West. And NOW? They're bringing that same thinking to American! Were I on the AA BOD?
I'd be beating the bushes to find the management teams I let GO!! Because I can tell you this. Those guys they let GO? Are running United with a vengeance!!


NW never had a hub at SEA. A focus city and gateway to Asia, perhaps, but not a hub. They had flights to SFO, LAX, maybe DFW, all for a short period, Hawaii, PDX, GEG, Montana cities, MSP, ORD, IAD, JFK, but many only one per day. HND/NRT. For short time SEL. HKG? AMS toward the end. Never a hub.
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 307
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 5:47 pm

Tell that to the 18 million+ passengers that connect in MSP every year, and the 8 million+ O/D passengers in MSP. There are numerous other hubs like this in the DL network.

Is ATL huge? Yes! Is it the only hub? No!

By that logic, AA’s hub in CLT is not a hub, and UA has no hubs at all.
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
zschocheimages
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:21 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 6:16 pm

spinotter wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
DL is definitely not a one hub airline.

But I would say this, that one ATL hub is equivalent to 2 or 3 fortress hubs for any other carrier. If I was given the choice of having DL's ATL operation vs AA's DFW and CLT operation or UA's ORD and IAH operation, it would be a hard call, but I'd probably rather have ATL rather than AA/UA's top 2 hubs.

NO Way!!! Delta has Atlanta because they couldn't hang with AA at DFW and closed their hub, with hubs at IAD,ORD, DEN, SFO, and LAX, even Before the CO Merger which added EWR and IAH. UA had one of the strongest Hub systems in the Nation.. That Delta is doing well with the hubs they have is commendable, BUT!! Those are Focus Cities at best. DTW and MSP are good traffic centers for sure But SLC? YGBSM! They Had a building hub at SEA via NW and they closed it! Now they're clawing their way back in but AS is there fully entrenched. Delta is in Fits and starts in the Pacific as they concentrated on Europe. Good move or Bad move? I can't say. But they seem to be doing OK. I wouldn't say they're raising Hell. United an American Both had their share of troubles,( mostly by their own hands) and this put them behind Delta for sure. But Delta in any real heads up? isn't out-distancing anybody. Certainly not United and American would be coming up were it not for the picayune senior management from USAir. which shows why USAir was an "Also-ran" Airline that didn't get any better even with the mergers of Piedmont, Pacific Southwest, and America 0West. And NOW? They're bringing that same thinking to American! Were I on the AA BOD?
I'd be beating the bushes to find the management teams I let GO!! Because I can tell you this. Those guys they let GO? Are running United with a vengeance!!


NW never had a hub at SEA. A focus city and gateway to Asia, perhaps, but not a hub. They had flights to SFO, LAX, maybe DFW, all for a short period, Hawaii, PDX, GEG, Montana cities, MSP, ORD, IAD, JFK, but many only one per day. HND/NRT. For short time SEL. HKG? AMS toward the end. Never a hub.


This is off topic from the actual discussion at hand, but NW did have some Alaska flying from SEA. I flew SEA-ANC a couple times in the mid 90s.

Regarding the original post - what does it matter if something is defined as a hub? If an airline sells me a ticket with connections, as long as there is a lounge or decent airside food/drink options, who cares if it is called a hub or not? And just for giggles, the dictionary defines an airport hub as "a central airport or other transport facility from which many services operate." Many. Doesn't define a number.
Why fly with 2 engines when you can have 3?
 
dmstorm22
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:49 pm

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 6:25 pm

casinterest wrote:
Here is the truth about Atlanta as a hub. It is within a two hour flight of 80% of the population, and has one of the most efficient terminal layouts (for planes) and space on the East coast.

Atlanta meets the needs of many people in smaller towns across the south , east, and midwest in making connecting flights. There is no doubt other hubs are smaller, but no other hubs are in such great locations without serious competition.


Delta is not a one hub airline by any means. They have efficient hubs around the world for moving traffic. They also have serious concentrations of Focus Cities where they do a lot of O&D. To say that Delta is a one hub airline is like saying Apple is only about the Iphone.


I'm pretty sure that first point (2hrs to 80% of the pop) has been disproven
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 8876
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 6:42 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Here is the truth about Atlanta as a hub. It is within a two hour flight of 80% of the population, and has one of the most efficient terminal layouts (for planes) and space on the East coast.

Atlanta meets the needs of many people in smaller towns across the south , east, and midwest in making connecting flights. There is no doubt other hubs are smaller, but no other hubs are in such great locations without serious competition.


Delta is not a one hub airline by any means. They have efficient hubs around the world for moving traffic. They also have serious concentrations of Focus Cities where they do a lot of O&D. To say that Delta is a one hub airline is like saying Apple is only about the Iphone.


I'm pretty sure that first point (2hrs to 80% of the pop) has been disproven



Not really. It may be off by 5 or 10 %, but it holds true. Atlanta can reach most of Texas population centers with a 2 hour flight, and other than California and Texas, most of the western states past the Mississippi, don't have high populations.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3520
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 6:46 pm

Here is the percent of total passengers that go through each airline's largest hub:

DL - 42% of passengers touch ATL
AA - 27% of passengers touch DFW
UA - 23% of passengers touch ORD
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4367
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 6:53 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Here is the truth about Atlanta as a hub. It is within a two hour flight of 80% of the population, and has one of the most efficient terminal layouts (for planes) and space on the East coast.

Atlanta meets the needs of many people in smaller towns across the south , east, and midwest in making connecting flights. There is no doubt other hubs are smaller, but no other hubs are in such great locations without serious competition.


Delta is not a one hub airline by any means. They have efficient hubs around the world for moving traffic. They also have serious concentrations of Focus Cities where they do a lot of O&D. To say that Delta is a one hub airline is like saying Apple is only about the Iphone.


I'm pretty sure that first point (2hrs to 80% of the pop) has been disproven


Yeah i mean they are considering NYC.BOS,ALB to be in 2 hours "flight time" We all know on an average weekday. Flight time and actual time are very different things. no one out there thinks in wheels up to wheels down time when booking a flight LOL
 
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msp747
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 6:55 pm

I am far from a road warrior, but I have easily flown more than 100,000 miles on DL over the past 20 years. I have used nearly all of their hubs, including the former DFW and CVG. I have NEVER once connected at ATL. Obviously it is a monster hub for them, but it's out of the way for large parts of the country and their network makes it easy to avoid (I haven't avoided it intentionally, it just has never been necessary). Operations in MSP and SLC may pale in comparison to it, but that doesn't mean they are not fortress hubs in their own right.
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 2194
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Re: Is Delta truly a one hub airline.

Fri May 10, 2019 7:14 pm

msp747 wrote:
I am far from a road warrior, but I have easily flown more than 100,000 miles on DL over the past 20 years. I have used nearly all of their hubs, including the former DFW and CVG. I have NEVER once connected at ATL. Obviously it is a monster hub for them, but it's out of the way for large parts of the country and their network makes it easy to avoid (I haven't avoided it intentionally, it just has never been necessary). Operations in MSP and SLC may pale in comparison to it, but that doesn't mean they are not fortress hubs in their own right.


You'll eventually get to ATL. Remember, when you die, you may go to heaven or you may go to hell. But, either way, you still have to connect in Atlanta. Sorry.

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