speedbird52
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Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Sat May 11, 2019 9:19 pm

Sure, not having to step over someone is nice, but not nice enough that I will substantially change my flight routing for it. Is there a single airline that provides direct aisle access, whilst also providing consistent soft product, and a route network large enough to be useful for the majority of the flying public?
 
IPFreely
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Sat May 11, 2019 10:50 pm

Why? Because bloggers have to fill up their blogs with something. And once one does it, when the rest go looking for filler they copy what they find.
 
Longhornmaniac
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Sat May 11, 2019 11:41 pm

No non-direct-aisle-access J seat will have a competitive amount of personal space in 2019. Take Turkish, for example. Great soft product, hard product that is stuck in the late aughts. Compared to the Super Diamond or Zodiac reverse herringbone seats, it's just not enough space or privacy, especially when there's no superior offering. Their new seat will go a long way towards helping that.

The closest thing to what you're describing would be Qatar. Defining a large-enough route network is, of course, subjective.

BA with their new Club Suite would also probably be close.
Cheers,
Cameron
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Sat May 11, 2019 11:52 pm

Longhornmaniac wrote:
No non-direct-aisle-access J seat will have a competitive amount of personal space in 2019. Take Turkish, for example. Great soft product, hard product that is stuck in the late aughts. Compared to the Super Diamond or Zodiac reverse herringbone seats, it's just not enough space or privacy, especially when there's no superior offering. Their new seat will go a long way towards helping that.

The closest thing to what you're describing would be Qatar. Defining a large-enough route network is, of course, subjective.

BA with their new Club Suite would also probably be close.

Enough space or privacy compared to what airlines? The only ones that come to my mind are Qatar and AA. I have heard great things about Qatar (I haven't had the privilege to fly them yet), but AA is famous for being inconsistent with their product
 
aklrno
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Sun May 12, 2019 12:07 am

As a 71 year old male the answer is easy. I have to get up to use the toilet frequently. On long haul flights I need to get to the aisle on short notice. If I'm in an aisle seat my attempts to sleep are doubly interrupted when the person in the window seat needs to get up. Paying a lot of extra money for a lay-flat bed is wasted if I don't get a good night's sleep. On short haul flights its not so important.

These days, if I pay for a premium long-haul seat it had better be a bed. I'f I'm traveling alone it had better have all seats with aisle access. When I'm traveling with a partner it doesn't seem so bad, but I don't want to have to deal with a stranger.

I just got off my first flight today with a United true Polaris business seat. It was great! Good privacy (in the odd numbered window seat), a comfortable bed, lots of storage space, and aisle access with a window.

I usually fly star alliance. Within star alliance, for long haul the seat is often the deciding factor. NZ and UA Polaris are strong favorites.
 
spacecadet
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Sun May 12, 2019 1:50 am

Why do some people only buy aisle seats and not window seats? It's the same thing. It's important for some people. It might not be for you. But don't expect a blogger or reviewer to tailor what they write to your specific tastes. They're trying to cover everybody who might be reading. I don't expect them to stop commenting on the brightness of the reading light or the size of the seat pockets just because I don't personally care.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
Longhornmaniac
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Sun May 12, 2019 3:45 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Longhornmaniac wrote:
No non-direct-aisle-access J seat will have a competitive amount of personal space in 2019. Take Turkish, for example. Great soft product, hard product that is stuck in the late aughts. Compared to the Super Diamond or Zodiac reverse herringbone seats, it's just not enough space or privacy, especially when there's no superior offering. Their new seat will go a long way towards helping that.

The closest thing to what you're describing would be Qatar. Defining a large-enough route network is, of course, subjective.

BA with their new Club Suite would also probably be close.

Enough space or privacy compared to what airlines? The only ones that come to my mind are Qatar and AA. I have heard great things about Qatar (I haven't had the privilege to fly them yet), but AA is famous for being inconsistent with their product


You're making a few points that are unrelated and trying to link them together to prove why direct aisle access doesn't matter.

Point 1: People want personal space or privacy.
Point 2: People want a consistent soft product.
Point 3: A large route network is required to make use of Points 1 and 2.

You're right that it's exceedingly difficult these days to find airlines that fill all three (though they're all somewhat subjective). The Q-Suite certainly fits the bill, and Singapore and Cathay are both probably up there, too.

Here's the rub, though. For many people, myself included, the seat is far more important than the service. I'm not expecting a Michelin Star-quality meal in business class, I'm just expecting the food to be edible and satiating. For me, this is why even though Delta (or arguably United) will offer better service on board, I'd take AA over either because AA's worst international widebody J seat (on the 767-300) is the same basic seat design as both Delta One Suite and the new Polaris seat. (Thompson Vantage XL).

I'm talking more space relative to any airline that doesn't offer all aisle access. Any seat design that puts two seats in the same footprint where only about 1.5 seats are put (as is the case with a 2-3-2 [777 cabin] straight forward style business seats vs. a reverse herringbone 1-2-1) will necessarily have less space per seat. I remember when AA had their "Coffin Style" seats in first class on the 777, that they used predominantly to Asia at the time. Those seats were 2-2-2 in F, all lie flat beds, but a far cry from the 1-2-1 Flagship Suites that are the same basic design as what is offered today. If I'm in business class, I want the freedom to not interact with other travelers if I can avoid it. I don't have that freedom if I'm in a window seat and I need to get up.
Cheers,
Cameron
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Mon May 13, 2019 7:49 am

aklrno wrote:
As a 71 year old male the answer is easy. I have to get up to use the toilet frequently.

As a 49 year old male: this is my main reason for selecting aisle as well... :-)
 
9w748capt
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Mon May 13, 2019 7:56 pm

What a bizarre question. Airlines such as AA and CX have established all-aisle access in int'l J and up. It's a better experience all around. It's not just the bloggers. Just like angle-flat J is considered obsolete.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Mon May 13, 2019 9:39 pm

9w748capt wrote:
What a bizarre question. Airlines such as AA and CX have established all-aisle access in int'l J and up. It's a better experience all around. It's not just the bloggers. Just like angle-flat J is considered obsolete.

I personally don't see how non direct flat beds can be called obsolete in the western aviation world when direct aisle access is the exception rather than the norm in Europe and the US. And when there is direct aisle access, it either comes with a poor soft product, or a tiny route network
 
KentB27
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Tue May 14, 2019 12:47 am

Bloggers like aisle access because it allows them to guzzle down as many alcoholic beverages as they want, cram as much food down their faces as they possibly can, and have the ability to have easy access to the lavatory when they inevitably need to piss like a race horse and have explosive diarrhea 17 times in one flight......or something.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Tue May 14, 2019 3:02 am

speedbird52 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
What a bizarre question. Airlines such as AA and CX have established all-aisle access in int'l J and up. It's a better experience all around. It's not just the bloggers. Just like angle-flat J is considered obsolete.

I personally don't see how non direct flat beds can be called obsolete in the western aviation world when direct aisle access is the exception rather than the norm in Europe and the US. And when there is direct aisle access, it either comes with a poor soft product, or a tiny route network


Non-lie-flat seats can't be called obsolete? Oh really? Who uses angle flat anymore other than AF and EK on the A380? How crazy is it that even AA has all lie-flat seats in int'l J? Are you joking?

Wait, so now direct aisle access comes with a poor product or tiny network? Haha yeah you know CX - their product and network are just so horrible! SQ too! Heck even AA's worldwide network these days - how horribly tiny!
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Tue May 14, 2019 3:38 am

9w748capt wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
What a bizarre question. Airlines such as AA and CX have established all-aisle access in int'l J and up. It's a better experience all around. It's not just the bloggers. Just like angle-flat J is considered obsolete.

I personally don't see how non direct flat beds can be called obsolete in the western aviation world when direct aisle access is the exception rather than the norm in Europe and the US. And when there is direct aisle access, it either comes with a poor soft product, or a tiny route network


Non-lie-flat seats can't be called obsolete? Oh really? Who uses angle flat anymore other than AF and EK on the A380? How crazy is it that even AA has all lie-flat seats in int'l J? Are you joking?

Wait, so now direct aisle access comes with a poor product or tiny network? Haha yeah you know CX - their product and network are just so horrible! SQ too! Heck even AA's worldwide network these days - how horribly tiny!

I never said angle seats aren't obsolete. I am specifically talking about airlines in the Western world. I didn't know Singapore and Hong Kong were in North America or Europe. I will be sure to take Cathay when I visit Paris next! How could I have forgotten AA? Nothing says premium experience more than staff who act like you owe them something.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Tue May 14, 2019 5:18 am

speedbird52 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
I personally don't see how non direct flat beds can be called obsolete in the western aviation world when direct aisle access is the exception rather than the norm in Europe and the US. And when there is direct aisle access, it either comes with a poor soft product, or a tiny route network


Non-lie-flat seats can't be called obsolete? Oh really? Who uses angle flat anymore other than AF and EK on the A380? How crazy is it that even AA has all lie-flat seats in int'l J? Are you joking?

Wait, so now direct aisle access comes with a poor product or tiny network? Haha yeah you know CX - their product and network are just so horrible! SQ too! Heck even AA's worldwide network these days - how horribly tiny!

I never said angle seats aren't obsolete. I am specifically talking about airlines in the Western world. I didn't know Singapore and Hong Kong were in North America or Europe. I will be sure to take Cathay when I visit Paris next! How could I have forgotten AA? Nothing says premium experience more than staff who act like you owe them something.


Oh so the rest of the world doesn't count? The US and Europe don't exist in a vacuum. Shocking I know.

Haha, even AF's new J class is all aisle access and fully lie flat. Maybe when you go to Paris you can ask them why they would bother investing in a product no one cares about!
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Tue May 14, 2019 6:25 am

9w748capt wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

Non-lie-flat seats can't be called obsolete? Oh really? Who uses angle flat anymore other than AF and EK on the A380? How crazy is it that even AA has all lie-flat seats in int'l J? Are you joking?

Wait, so now direct aisle access comes with a poor product or tiny network? Haha yeah you know CX - their product and network are just so horrible! SQ too! Heck even AA's worldwide network these days - how horribly tiny!

I never said angle seats aren't obsolete. I am specifically talking about airlines in the Western world. I didn't know Singapore and Hong Kong were in North America or Europe. I will be sure to take Cathay when I visit Paris next! How could I have forgotten AA? Nothing says premium experience more than staff who act like you owe them something.


Oh so the rest of the world doesn't count? The US and Europe don't exist in a vacuum. Shocking I know.

Haha, even AF's new J class is all aisle access and fully lie flat. Maybe when you go to Paris you can ask them why they would bother investing in a product no one cares about!

No. The rest of the world certainly counts. More so for me as I spend most of my travel time in the Eastern hemisphere. But most of the airlines that take flak for not having a direct aisle access don't have any competitors who offer a similar quality of product AS WELL as direct aisle. I am referring specifically to BA, Lufthansa, KLM, and Air France. I would love to hear all about Air Frances wonderful fully flat direct aisle seats but I can't hear you over the deafening roar of Air France A330s with angle 2-2-2 seats. I don't think we will accomplish anything with this conversation anymore as you seem to be the type of person that enjoys berating other people rather than engaging in productive discussion. Sadly your type seems to be the majority of people on aviation fixated websites. Good day.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Tue May 14, 2019 6:27 am

If an airline today announced a NEW business class seat and proceeded to show me a 2-2-2 they would deserve to be laughed out of the market. But to me it doesn't make sense to criticize airlines who's primary markets are in the US and Europe for having legacy 2-2-2 Business Class seating when this has been the standard in Europe and the US for ages.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Tue May 14, 2019 7:03 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
If an airline today announced a NEW business class seat and proceeded to show me a 2-2-2 they would deserve to be laughed out of the market. But to me it doesn't make sense to criticize airlines who's primary markets are in the US and Europe for having legacy 2-2-2 Business Class seating when this has been the standard in Europe and the US for ages.


Has been. It's time to stop living in the past. Even BA and LH are moving forward with direct aisle access in J. They've only gotten away with it so long because BA dominates London and LH has the lucrative German market. So why wouldn't those two stuck with their current product if it's working so well? Clearly they see the need to update their product to match today's standards.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Tue May 14, 2019 11:38 pm

9w748capt wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
If an airline today announced a NEW business class seat and proceeded to show me a 2-2-2 they would deserve to be laughed out of the market. But to me it doesn't make sense to criticize airlines who's primary markets are in the US and Europe for having legacy 2-2-2 Business Class seating when this has been the standard in Europe and the US for ages.


Has been. It's time to stop living in the past. Even BA and LH are moving forward with direct aisle access in J. They've only gotten away with it so long because BA dominates London and LH has the lucrative German market. So why wouldn't those two stuck with their current product if it's working so well? Clearly they see the need to update their product to match today's standards.

The problem is people criticize LH BA and KL for offering 2-2-2 NOW. Not for their lack of willingness to improve.
 
9w748capt
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Wed May 15, 2019 1:30 am

speedbird52 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
If an airline today announced a NEW business class seat and proceeded to show me a 2-2-2 they would deserve to be laughed out of the market. But to me it doesn't make sense to criticize airlines who's primary markets are in the US and Europe for having legacy 2-2-2 Business Class seating when this has been the standard in Europe and the US for ages.


Has been. It's time to stop living in the past. Even BA and LH are moving forward with direct aisle access in J. They've only gotten away with it so long because BA dominates London and LH has the lucrative German market. So why wouldn't those two stuck with their current product if it's working so well? Clearly they see the need to update their product to match today's standards.

The problem is people criticize LH BA and KL for offering 2-2-2 NOW. Not for their lack of willingness to improve.


Why is that a problem exactly? Criticizing something is a problem? Pointing out that product A is better than product B is a problem? Clearly 2-2-2 J class works for some airlines. For example it would be hard to imagine ET would change their J seating. But all of a sudden it's a problem to point out that airlines such as AA or CX offer a superior J class? (At least in terms of hard product)
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Wed May 15, 2019 4:27 am

9w748capt wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

Has been. It's time to stop living in the past. Even BA and LH are moving forward with direct aisle access in J. They've only gotten away with it so long because BA dominates London and LH has the lucrative German market. So why wouldn't those two stuck with their current product if it's working so well? Clearly they see the need to update their product to match today's standards.

The problem is people criticize LH BA and KL for offering 2-2-2 NOW. Not for their lack of willingness to improve.


Why is that a problem exactly? Criticizing something is a problem? Pointing out that product A is better than product B is a problem? Clearly 2-2-2 J class works for some airlines. For example it would be hard to imagine ET would change their J seating. But all of a sudden it's a problem to point out that airlines such as AA or CX offer a superior J class? (At least in terms of hard product)

Pointing out that LH BA and KL need better seats isn't a problem. To me I feel that you are not writing a fare review if you don't factor in every aspect of a product when making a verdict
 
alan3
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Re: Why do Bloggers Obsess Over Direct Aisle Access So much

Wed May 15, 2019 9:44 pm

Although I'm sure we all enjoy throwing some shade at the bloggers, I'm surprised anyone would think middle seats in J are still acceptable in 2019. 2-3-2 is bad enough but there are some airlines (eg: United) that still have 2-4-2 in Business which is almost unimaginable.

With international First Class becoming increasingly obsolete and the major enhancement of J product in recent years, you just can't provide a competitive hard product that doesn't have direct aisle access.

Even 2-2-2 which does give direct aisle access lags behind 1-2-1 reverse herringbone in my opinion.

For the price of a J class ticket, I would never in a million years ever consider an airline with middle seats in J. Not for a second.

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