UA857
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NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Tue May 21, 2019 9:31 pm

Who was stronger in TPAC during the Legacy years of NW and UA. NW or UA? 1990s-2000s?
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Tue May 21, 2019 9:35 pm

Both were strong because neither had any other US competition. Since both mostly funneled flights through NRT I guess you could say JAL was there primary competition or maybe KE funneling pax through ICN. Remember in this era the Chinese carriers were pretty much non-existent.
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Tue May 21, 2019 9:36 pm

Let's build some research skills. Go into the annual reports and look for geographical revenues and/or revenue passenger miles.

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compensateme
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Tue May 21, 2019 9:40 pm

/ / / U N I T E D was much stronger than Northwest. According to its 2000 annual report, "[United is] the largest U.S. airline operating in the Pacific."
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_fil ... ual_00.pdf

United operated an all-744 fleet across the Pacific throughout the 1990s. The 777 didn't make its Pacific debut until 1999. Northwest meanwhile flew a bunch of Diesel-10s and classic 747.
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Tue May 21, 2019 9:49 pm

United was, and I believe still is, the strongest airline from anywhere in the Pacific.
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FSDan
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Tue May 21, 2019 10:48 pm

UA had more nonstop routes from the U.S. NW had more destinations in East Asia, I believe (mostly just connected into the NRT hub).
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Tue May 21, 2019 11:00 pm

United was much stronger. NW's inability to successfully overfly Japan left them very dependent upon 5th Freedom Japan POS traffic (usually tour groups) to support their rest of their Asian network.
 
UA444
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Tue May 21, 2019 11:21 pm

UA and it wasn’t close. UA started diversifying away from NRT years ago, something DL is now just completing.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Tue May 21, 2019 11:41 pm

Although NW had a big presence at NRT (were there narrow-bodies based there as well?), NW did do some other things such as LAX-SYD 3x/weekly using the 744.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 12:13 am

gunnerman wrote:
Although NW had a big presence at NRT (were there narrow-bodies based there as well?), NW did do some other things such as LAX-SYD 3x/weekly using the 744.

I would think there were at some point. Back in 2002, I flew a Boeing 747-400 from JFK to NRT, then flew an Airbus A320 from NRT to TPE. Two months later, it was an A320 again back to NRT before switching to a Continental 777 to EWR. Also saw a Boeing 757-200 at TPE in 2004, which I assumed would be heading to NRT.
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 12:19 am

gunnerman wrote:
Although NW had a big presence at NRT (were there narrow-bodies based there as well?), NW did do some other things such as LAX-SYD 3x/weekly using the 744.


I know they flew SYD-KIX-(DTW?) but didn't realise until now that they had a non-stop SYD-LAX as well. A quick Google shows 3x SYD-LAX and 4x SYD-NRT, plus an earlier route LAX-HNL-SYD. From what I can gather NW only lasted 3 years in the Australian market (1991-1994)
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 12:29 am

UA444 wrote:
UA and it wasn’t close. UA started diversifying away from NRT years ago, something DL is now just completing.


Not entirely accurate. UA simply ended most if not all flights from NRT to points beyond in Asia because it has NH a partner there and at HND. NH is a Star Alliance partner and UA and NH cooperate on numerous routes from NRT. AA has done something similar with JL. DL had wanted to form a partnership with Japan Airlines when it was reorganizing (JL) but JAL ended up remaining in oneworld, and as such DL ended up not having a Japan-based partner and a network focused around NRT that it inherited from NW.

DL's solution is to move as much as it can to HND and over-fly NRT by relying on KE and China Eastern to provide connectivity through ICN and PVG.

As to the original post question, UA was always and remains the strongest and biggest US carrier across the Pacific.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 12:32 am

NW: there was no SYD-NRT. It was SYD-LAX 744, SYD-HNL-LAX 742x1 & DC10-30 x3 and the Osaka (ITM, then KIX) to JFK (later DTW) with a mix of 741/742 on the SYD-OSA sector. UA wanted to fly SYD-NRT and the flight got pulled about a week before starting.
NW local senior management was all ex CO. They operated their OSA flights with a very liberal interpretation of the bilateral and got caught to the point they were so desperate to fill the 50% USA originating quota via OSA that NW staff were offered $200 firm seats to SYD.
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 12:36 am

gunnerman wrote:
NW had a big presence at NRT (were there narrow-bodies based there as well?)


Yes. Up until recently, DL still had 5 752s based out of NRT. They came back to the U.S. once DL cut NRT-GUM, NRT-SPN, NRT-ROR, NRT-KIX, and KIX-GUM, and now they fly U.S.-Europe and some domestic turns.

I remember at one point in the last 10-15 years NW also flew NRT-PUS on a 757; I don't remember which other NRT flights saw 757s. From memory, destinations served by NW from NRT in the 2000s included SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, MSP, DTW, JFK, HNL, GUM, SPN, KIX, PUS, ICN, PEK, PVG, TPE, HKG, MNL, BKK, and SIN (maybe NGO and/or CAN too?). They flew to DTW and MNL from NGO, and to DTW from KIX as well.

UA didn't serve as many Asian destinations (at least not before CO Micronesia became a part of UA), but they did connect more beyond-Japan destinations to the U.S. nonstop. In the 2000s I think the following were flown at the very least: SEA-NRT, SFO-NRT, SFO-KIX, SFO-ICN, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG, SFO-TPE, SFO-HKG, LAX-NRT, LAX-HKG, ORD-NRT, ORD-PEK, ORD-PVG, ORD-HKG, IAD-NRT. I don't remember when IAD-PEK was added, and I'm probably missing a few others too. Beyond NRT, UA flew to BKK, SIN, and I think at least a few other destinations (maybe ICN and PVG?).
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 12:44 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Not entirely accurate. UA simply ended most if not all flights from NRT to points beyond in Asia because it has NH a partner there and at HND. NH is a Star Alliance partner and UA and NH cooperate on numerous routes from NRT. AA has done something similar with JL. DL had wanted to form a partnership with Japan Airlines when it was reorganizing (JL) but JAL ended up remaining in oneworld, and as such DL ended up not having a Japan-based partner and a network focused around NRT that it inherited from NW.


UA start going away from NRT way before NH even come into the picture, though. Flights like SFO-TPE or SFO-HKG had been around since something like 1996. They do have intra-Asia flight, but not all of them focused around NRT (i.e. They used to fly SFO-HKG-SIN and SFO-ICN-MNL).

Meanwhile, NW fly 90% of their Asia flights via NRT. NRT used to see like 5-6 NW 744 at the same time parked next to each other.
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 12:56 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Not entirely accurate. UA simply ended most if not all flights from NRT to points beyond in Asia because it has NH a partner there and at HND. NH is a Star Alliance partner and UA and NH cooperate on numerous routes from NRT. AA has done something similar with JL. DL had wanted to form a partnership with Japan Airlines when it was reorganizing (JL) but JAL ended up remaining in oneworld, and as such DL ended up not having a Japan-based partner and a network focused around NRT that it inherited from NW.


UA start going away from NRT way before NH even come into the picture, though. Flights like SFO-TPE or SFO-HKG had been around since something like 1996. They do have intra-Asia flight, but not all of them focused around NRT (i.e. They used to fly SFO-HKG-SIN and SFO-ICN-MNL).

Meanwhile, NW fly 90% of their Asia flights via NRT. NRT used to see like 5-6 NW 744 at the same time parked next to each other.


I never said UA did not have direct flights overflying NRT, but yes, UA began to bypass NRT earlier with direct flights, focused on SFO as the gateway, to cities served previously through NRT. The arrival of the 787-9 accelerated the expansion from SFO. UA still has a lot of flights into NRT though (IAD, ORD, DEN, EWR, SFO, LAX, HNL, IAH). If the newly awarded HND slots are granted, UA will add HND service from ORD, IAD, and EWR). Unclear if they will keep NRT flights from those cities or not.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 12:56 am

NW had nonstop at one time or another from SEA/SFO/LAS/ANC/HNL/MSP/DTW/JFK and then onward to PUS/ICN/TPE/PVG/PEK/SIN/MNL/GUM/SPN/HKG/BKK/CAN/KIX/NGO. Not all of these offered a the same time. Even had ORD to NRT for a long time, Pacific for sure United was larger as as more diverse routes, if Japan only, pretty sure NW was bigger as they also had HNL, SEA, DTW and I think even LAX to KiX and onward from KIX to SYD, KUL, KHH, GUM, SPN . Then also HNL and DTW to NGO and onward to MNL, SPN and GUM. Also HNL to FUK.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 1:09 am

The OP's question relates to the 1990's/2000's... in the 90's I would have thought NW was stronger. Yes it was mostly a NRT hub operation, but it was very large.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 1:26 am

FSDan wrote:
I remember at one point in the last 10-15 years NW also flew NRT-PUS on a 757; I don't remember which other NRT flights saw 757s.


DL ended NRT-PUS in 2012, and NRT-ICN in 2013. Both flights were operated by the 757 until the end.
NRT-PUS was an A320 from 2002 to 2004, and then switched to 757.
NRT-ICN switched from the 742 to 744 in 2003, then DC-10 for a few months and then 332 from August 2004 (NRT-ICN was the first NW 332 route). Right after the merger, DL started to use a mix of 333, 332, 763, 752 on the NRT-ICN route until it became 757 only.

FSDan wrote:
From memory, destinations served by NW from NRT in the 2000s included SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, MSP, DTW, JFK, HNL, GUM, SPN, KIX, PUS, ICN, PEK, PVG, TPE, HKG, MNL, BKK, and SIN (maybe NGO and/or CAN too?). They flew to DTW and MNL from NGO, and to DTW from KIX as well.


NW did indeed fly NRT-NGO and NRT-CAN with the 757. They also served NGO-SPN and KIX-SPN/TPE.
NW briefly operated NRT-KHH as well.


FSDan wrote:
UA didn't serve as many Asian destinations (at least not before CO Micronesia became a part of UA), but they did connect more beyond-Japan destinations to the U.S. nonstop. In the 2000s I think the following were flown at the very least: SEA-NRT, SFO-NRT, SFO-KIX, SFO-ICN, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG, SFO-TPE, SFO-HKG, LAX-NRT, LAX-HKG, ORD-NRT, ORD-PEK, ORD-PVG, ORD-HKG, IAD-NRT. I don't remember when IAD-PEK was added, and I'm probably missing a few others too. Beyond NRT, UA flew to BKK, SIN, and I think at least a few other destinations (maybe ICN and PVG?).


They also briefly flew SFO-NGO. SFO-ICN was suspended on and off in the early 2000's (they had 2x daily NRT-ICN instead) until it came back permanently in 2006. I believe SFO-TPE was also suspended from 2008 to 2014.
From ORD, UA also flew to KIX until around 2007 or so. IAD-NRT was started in 2006 when UA cancelled JFK-NRT. IAD-PEK was started in 2007.
As for fifth-freedom from NRT, in addition to what you listed, UA also flew NRT-HKG and TPE.
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 1:52 am

FSDan wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
NW had a big presence at NRT (were there narrow-bodies based there as well?)


Yes. Up until recently, DL still had 5 752s based out of NRT. They came back to the U.S. once DL cut NRT-GUM, NRT-SPN, NRT-ROR, NRT-KIX, and KIX-GUM, and now they fly U.S.-Europe and some domestic turns.

I remember at one point in the last 10-15 years NW also flew NRT-PUS on a 757; I don't remember which other NRT flights saw 757s. From memory, destinations served by NW from NRT in the 2000s included SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, MSP, DTW, JFK, HNL, GUM, SPN, KIX, PUS, ICN, PEK, PVG, TPE, HKG, MNL, BKK, and SIN (maybe NGO and/or CAN too?). They flew to DTW and MNL from NGO, and to DTW from KIX as well.

UA didn't serve as many Asian destinations (at least not before CO Micronesia became a part of UA), but they did connect more beyond-Japan destinations to the U.S. nonstop. In the 2000s I think the following were flown at the very least: SEA-NRT, SFO-NRT, SFO-KIX, SFO-ICN, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG, SFO-TPE, SFO-HKG, LAX-NRT, LAX-HKG, ORD-NRT, ORD-PEK, ORD-PVG, ORD-HKG, IAD-NRT. I don't remember when IAD-PEK was added, and I'm probably missing a few others too. Beyond NRT, UA flew to BKK, SIN, and I think at least a few other destinations (maybe ICN and PVG?).

In January 1993 I flew SIN-HKG-SFO on UA with a stopover in HKG, with HKG-SFO being packed (413 out of 418 seats filled). I have a recollection that the flight would continue onto LAX.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 2:49 am

While the original question limits the dates to the 90s-2000s, Northwest was, at one point, a dominant US-Asia carrier (perhaps second to Pan-Am at some points) and branded itself Northwest Orient Airlines. Aside from Guam, I don't believe United had a major presence in Asia until it acquired the Pan-Am Asian routes in 1985 or so.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 4:49 am

bigred10k wrote:
While the original question limits the dates to the 90s-2000s, Northwest was, at one point, a dominant US-Asia carrier (perhaps second to Pan-Am at some points) and branded itself Northwest Orient Airlines. Aside from Guam, I don't believe United had a major presence in Asia until it acquired the Pan-Am Asian routes in 1985 or so.


Guam didn't come into the picture for UA until the merger with Continental in 2010.

United first gained access to Asia in 1983, with its "Royal Pacific Service"...NRT, SEL, SYD, AKL, TPE, HKG, and I think maybe BKK also. Aircraft used were 742 and DC-10-30 (leased through CP-Air). That presence grew considerably with the strategic purchase of Pan Am's pacific routes in 1985 and began in 1986.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 5:01 am

About the same, they both went back and fourth as being #1 IMHO.

For instance both operated flights to NRT from spoke cities: NW did ORD-NRT, UA (before merging with CO) did EWR-NRT, both did SEA-NRT.

Very similar but UA's SFO hub was a better jumping point than DTW. NW made DTW work well to Asia though. Both NRT feeder networks at both airlines were very similar.

Tough Call.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 5:15 am

United got a real kick in the cojones when the FAA revoked their SEA-NRT authority. Thanks, Elizabeth Dole.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 5:33 am

leftcoast8 wrote:
United got a real kick in the cojones when the FAA revoked their SEA-NRT authority. Thanks, Elizabeth Dole.


Which they eventually got back.

Although SEA-NRT for UA supposedly turned out to be the 'Low Yielding Express'/'FF Redemption Express' (a complete recipe for losing money) for most of its second tenure.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 5:36 am

N174UA wrote:
bigred10k wrote:
While the original question limits the dates to the 90s-2000s, Northwest was, at one point, a dominant US-Asia carrier (perhaps second to Pan-Am at some points) and branded itself Northwest Orient Airlines. Aside from Guam, I don't believe United had a major presence in Asia until it acquired the Pan-Am Asian routes in 1985 or so.


Guam didn't come into the picture for UA until the merger with Continental in 2010.

United first gained access to Asia in 1983, with its "Royal Pacific Service"...NRT, SEL, SYD, AKL, TPE, HKG, and I think maybe BKK also. Aircraft used were 742 and DC-10-30 (leased through CP-Air). That presence grew considerably with the strategic purchase of Pan Am's pacific routes in 1985 and began in 1986.

I thought prior to the PA purchase UA only served NRT and HKG. SEA- NRT 6x weekly and PDX -NRT 1x weekly with 742 and SEA-HKG daily with DC10-30
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 6:12 am

eta unknown wrote:
The OP's question relates to the 1990's/2000's... in the 90's I would have thought NW was stronger. Yes it was mostly a NRT hub operation, but it was very large.

I was at United before we got the Pan AM Pacific division. Once we got the Pacific Division we played catch up to Northwest for about 2-3 years before we got our airplanes together. Our 747-122 had never even had the tanks filled and maxed out at 734,000 Lbs Max gross. We got 7-747SP's and 5 L1011-500's along with 2 747-121's (which we scrapped) With the work needed to bring the SP's up to snuff we scuffled for overear while they were being Overhauled. The L1011's went to Hong King to HAECO to be overhauled and we at one point had EVERY leased RB211-522 in the world until our engines were Overhauled, So Northwest had quite a lead on us for quite a while. We also bought 5 747-123's that we Overhauled and upgraded for Pacific Service. After about 18 months we started to catch up Especially after the 747-222B's came on board to fly JFK-NRT. They were the 833K MGWT models. All of those airplanes were eventually replaced by the B747-422's a and -451's. Northwest pretty much left the Pacific After the Delta merger.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 6:16 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
N174UA wrote:
bigred10k wrote:
While the original question limits the dates to the 90s-2000s, Northwest was, at one point, a dominant US-Asia carrier (perhaps second to Pan-Am at some points) and branded itself Northwest Orient Airlines. Aside from Guam, I don't believe United had a major presence in Asia until it acquired the Pan-Am Asian routes in 1985 or so.


Guam didn't come into the picture for UA until the merger with Continental in 2010.

United first gained access to Asia in 1983, with its "Royal Pacific Service"...NRT, SEL, SYD, AKL, TPE, HKG, and I think maybe BKK also. Aircraft used were 742 and DC-10-30 (leased through CP-Air). That presence grew considerably with the strategic purchase of Pan Am's pacific routes in 1985 and began in 1986.

I thought prior to the PA purchase UA only served NRT and HKG. SEA- NRT 6x weekly and PDX -NRT 1x weekly with 742 and SEA-HKG daily with DC10-30

Before the Pan Am Pacific Division come about United Flew SEA-NRT and SEA HKG with 747's and DC10-30's leased from Canadian Pacific.
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 6:51 am

I think it was DL
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 7:03 am

FSDan wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
NW had a big presence at NRT (were there narrow-bodies based there as well?)


Yes. Up until recently, DL still had 5 752s based out of NRT. They came back to the U.S. once DL cut NRT-GUM, NRT-SPN, NRT-ROR, NRT-KIX, and KIX-GUM, and now they fly U.S.-Europe and some domestic turns.

I remember at one point in the last 10-15 years NW also flew NRT-PUS on a 757; I don't remember which other NRT flights saw 757s. From memory, destinations served by NW from NRT in the 2000s included SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, MSP, DTW, JFK, HNL, GUM, SPN, KIX, PUS, ICN, PEK, PVG, TPE, HKG, MNL, BKK, and SIN (maybe NGO and/or CAN too?). They flew to DTW and MNL from NGO, and to DTW from KIX as well.

UA didn't serve as many Asian destinations (at least not before CO Micronesia became a part of UA), but they did connect more beyond-Japan destinations to the U.S. nonstop. In the 2000s I think the following were flown at the very least: SEA-NRT, SFO-NRT, SFO-KIX, SFO-ICN, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG, SFO-TPE, SFO-HKG, LAX-NRT, LAX-HKG, ORD-NRT, ORD-PEK, ORD-PVG, ORD-HKG, IAD-NRT. I don't remember when IAD-PEK was added, and I'm probably missing a few others too. Beyond NRT, UA flew to BKK, SIN, and I think at least a few other destinations (maybe ICN and PVG?).


How did NW rotate 757 crews to operate NRT interport flights?
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 7:29 am

Gosh, I really have to sleep... but this question got me up.

Source: US BTS. All TPAC routes incl. Oceania. One-way Seats, Pax, L/Fs.
5th freedom routes from Asian countries are not included.

1990:
Image

2000:
Image
 
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 7:35 am

Confirms my memories. NWA also had a significant cargo operation on the Pacific.

DTW, MSP were the main hubs, but the other major gateways too. Lots of DC10's.
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 9:12 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
N174UA wrote:
bigred10k wrote:
While the original question limits the dates to the 90s-2000s, Northwest was, at one point, a dominant US-Asia carrier (perhaps second to Pan-Am at some points) and branded itself Northwest Orient Airlines. Aside from Guam, I don't believe United had a major presence in Asia until it acquired the Pan-Am Asian routes in 1985 or so.


Guam didn't come into the picture for UA until the merger with Continental in 2010.

United first gained access to Asia in 1983, with its "Royal Pacific Service"...NRT, SEL, SYD, AKL, TPE, HKG, and I think maybe BKK also. Aircraft used were 742 and DC-10-30 (leased through CP-Air). That presence grew considerably with the strategic purchase of Pan Am's pacific routes in 1985 and began in 1986.

I thought prior to the PA purchase UA only served NRT and HKG. SEA- NRT 6x weekly and PDX -NRT 1x weekly with 742 and SEA-HKG daily with DC10-30


You are absolutely correct, just for grins n giggles do you remember the day of the week, the 747 routed via PDX? It was the same day, both directions, so we had two UA 747's on the ground at PDX next to each other. I flew the ORD-PDX leg of this flight, it was awesome service. The day was Tuesday.
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 2:37 pm

From '93 to '96 NW operated a B-727 operation using GUM as the hub in competition with Air Mike. Destinations included at various times: NGO, FUK, SPN, TPE, SEL, MNL and OKA. When air travel got back on it's feet in the States in '96, they brought the 727s back and that was the end of that.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 3:09 pm

ITSTours wrote:
Gosh, I really have to sleep... but this question got me up.

Source: US BTS. All TPAC routes incl. Oceania. One-way Seats, Pax, L/Fs.
5th freedom routes from Asian countries are not included.

1990:
Image

2000:
Image


So essentially, in terms of capacity, it's a wash between NW and UA. At least around 2000 seems like NW has a much better load factor, though.

The only other thing that's noticeable is how big JL was in the TPAC market. Even if you factor out HNL they still carried tons of pax. Nowaday, NH passed them by, while KE only grew from the number seen in 2000, especially after they get their operations (mainly safety issue) in order. CX also grew a LOT from those 2000 number.
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FSDan
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 5:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
FSDan wrote:
gunnerman wrote:
NW had a big presence at NRT (were there narrow-bodies based there as well?)


Yes. Up until recently, DL still had 5 752s based out of NRT. They came back to the U.S. once DL cut NRT-GUM, NRT-SPN, NRT-ROR, NRT-KIX, and KIX-GUM, and now they fly U.S.-Europe and some domestic turns.

I remember at one point in the last 10-15 years NW also flew NRT-PUS on a 757; I don't remember which other NRT flights saw 757s. From memory, destinations served by NW from NRT in the 2000s included SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, MSP, DTW, JFK, HNL, GUM, SPN, KIX, PUS, ICN, PEK, PVG, TPE, HKG, MNL, BKK, and SIN (maybe NGO and/or CAN too?). They flew to DTW and MNL from NGO, and to DTW from KIX as well.

UA didn't serve as many Asian destinations (at least not before CO Micronesia became a part of UA), but they did connect more beyond-Japan destinations to the U.S. nonstop. In the 2000s I think the following were flown at the very least: SEA-NRT, SFO-NRT, SFO-KIX, SFO-ICN, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG, SFO-TPE, SFO-HKG, LAX-NRT, LAX-HKG, ORD-NRT, ORD-PEK, ORD-PVG, ORD-HKG, IAD-NRT. I don't remember when IAD-PEK was added, and I'm probably missing a few others too. Beyond NRT, UA flew to BKK, SIN, and I think at least a few other destinations (maybe ICN and PVG?).


How did NW rotate 757 crews to operate NRT interport flights?


I'm not 100% sure on this (I'm sure someone else can confirm or deny it), but I think they might have been NRT-based crews. The aircraft were certainly NRT-based, so there weren't regular rotations to bring them back to the mainland.
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FSDan
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 5:04 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
UA still has a lot of flights into NRT though (IAD, ORD, DEN, EWR, SFO, LAX, HNL, IAH). If the newly awarded HND slots are granted, UA will add HND service from ORD, IAD, and EWR). Unclear if they will keep NRT flights from those cities or not.


UA was also awarded LAX-HND. The LAX and EWR to HND flights are extra, while the ORD and IAD to HND flights will be replacing existing NRT flights. End state should look something like this:

NRT: SFO, LAX, DEN, IAH, EWR, HNL, GUM
HND: SFO, LAX, ORD, IAD, EWR
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FSDan
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 5:32 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
Northwest pretty much left the Pacific After the Delta merger.


It's certainly true that the NRT operation has been drastically reduced (and will likely go away entirely by this time next year), but at the same time, DL's added a significant number of nonstop transpacific flights since the merger. At the time of the merger, NW was flying SEA-NRT, PDX-NRT, SFO-NRT, LAX-NRT, MSP-NRT, DTW-NRT, DTW-NGO, DTW-KIX, HNL-NRT, and HNL-KIX. All of those are still going except SFO-NRT and DTW-KIX (LAX-NRT and MSP-NRT were both moved to HND). Also at the time of the merger, DL was flying ATL-NRT, ATL-ICN, and ATL-PVG (the last two being cut shortly after the merger, and reinstated more recently).

Since the DL/NW merger, DL has added the following TPAC routes:
SEA-KIX
SEA-ICN
SEA-PEK
SEA-PVG
LAX-PVG
MSP-ICN
DTW-ICN
DTW-PEK
DTW-PVG
HNL-NGO

Other routes were tried and later cut: SEA-HKG, SLC-NRT, DTW-HKG, JFK-NRT, HNL-FUK.

As far as I can make out, that's a net change of +8 nonstop U.S.-East Asia routes since the time of the merger. I'm not sure what the net change in ASMs would look like... On the one hand, the 744s were retired and a bunch of intra-Asia routes were cut. On the other hand, DL flies a lot more long routes now to Asia than they used to. I'm not sure if it's a wash, if it's a decrease due to the smaller average gauge and cut NRT routes, or if it's an increase due to the addition of longer routes from DTW and SEA. Either way, DL has far from left the Pacific.
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deltacto
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Wed May 22, 2019 6:53 pm

RWA380 wrote:
You are absolutely correct, just for grins n giggles do you remember the day of the week, the 747 routed via PDX? It was the same day, both directions, so we had two UA 747's on the ground at PDX next to each other. I flew the ORD-PDX leg of this flight, it was awesome service. The day was Tuesday.


According to UA's June 1, 1984 timetable ... yes ... both flights operated via PDX on Tuesdays

SEA-HKG was daily
ORD-SEA-NRT and back ... daily except Tuesday
ORD-PDX-NRT and back ... Tuesdays only
 
flyer56
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Thu May 23, 2019 8:44 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Not entirely accurate. UA simply ended most if not all flights from NRT to points beyond in Asia because it has NH a partner there and at HND. NH is a Star Alliance partner and UA and NH cooperate on numerous routes from NRT. AA has done something similar with JL. DL had wanted to form a partnership with Japan Airlines when it was reorganizing (JL) but JAL ended up remaining in oneworld, and as such DL ended up not having a Japan-based partner and a network focused around NRT that it inherited from NW.


UA start going away from NRT way before NH even come into the picture, though. Flights like SFO-TPE or SFO-HKG had been around since something like 1996. They do have intra-Asia flight, but not all of them focused around NRT (i.e. They used to fly SFO-HKG-SIN and SFO-ICN-MNL).

Meanwhile, NW fly 90% of their Asia flights via NRT. NRT used to see like 5-6 NW 744 at the same time parked next to each other.


I kind of remember it this way, too. I lived in Tokyo and Hong Kong during the 90s and my impression was NW was bigger in Tokyo while United was bigger in Hong Kong. At one point United had three daily HKG-SFO flights which is kind of incredible to think about today. I really don't remember NW in 2000 being so big but they sure had a lot of intra-Asian flights. They were always the cheapest way to fly to SEL, TPE, HKG and SIN.
 
klm617
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Thu May 23, 2019 2:21 pm

FSDan wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Northwest pretty much left the Pacific After the Delta merger.


It's certainly true that the NRT operation has been drastically reduced (and will likely go away entirely by this time next year), but at the same time, DL's added a significant number of nonstop transpacific flights since the merger. At the time of the merger, NW was flying SEA-NRT, PDX-NRT, SFO-NRT, LAX-NRT, MSP-NRT, DTW-NRT, DTW-NGO, DTW-KIX, HNL-NRT, and HNL-KIX. All of those are still going except SFO-NRT and DTW-KIX (LAX-NRT and MSP-NRT were both moved to HND). Also at the time of the merger, DL was flying ATL-NRT, ATL-ICN, and ATL-PVG (the last two being cut shortly after the merger, and reinstated more recently).

Since the DL/NW merger, DL has added the following TPAC routes:
SEA-KIX
SEA-ICN
SEA-PEK
SEA-PVG
LAX-PVG
MSP-ICN
DTW-ICN
DTW-PEK
DTW-PVG
HNL-NGO

Other routes were tried and later cut: SEA-HKG, SLC-NRT, DTW-HKG, JFK-NRT, HNL-FUK.

As far as I can make out, that's a net change of +8 nonstop U.S.-East Asia routes since the time of the merger. I'm not sure what the net change in ASMs would look like... On the one hand, the 744s were retired and a bunch of intra-Asia routes were cut. On the other hand, DL flies a lot more long routes now to Asia than they used to. I'm not sure if it's a wash, if it's a decrease due to the smaller average gauge and cut NRT routes, or if it's an increase due to the addition of longer routes from DTW and SEA. Either way, DL has far from left the Pacific.


You forgot SEA-HND and DTW-HND which were both dropped plus capacity has been reduced due to the down gauge of equipment especially out of DTW and SEA. So Delta is reducing it's footprint to Asia slowly over time and will continue to do so.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Thu May 23, 2019 3:23 pm

flyer56 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Not entirely accurate. UA simply ended most if not all flights from NRT to points beyond in Asia because it has NH a partner there and at HND. NH is a Star Alliance partner and UA and NH cooperate on numerous routes from NRT. AA has done something similar with JL. DL had wanted to form a partnership with Japan Airlines when it was reorganizing (JL) but JAL ended up remaining in oneworld, and as such DL ended up not having a Japan-based partner and a network focused around NRT that it inherited from NW.


UA start going away from NRT way before NH even come into the picture, though. Flights like SFO-TPE or SFO-HKG had been around since something like 1996. They do have intra-Asia flight, but not all of them focused around NRT (i.e. They used to fly SFO-HKG-SIN and SFO-ICN-MNL).

Meanwhile, NW fly 90% of their Asia flights via NRT. NRT used to see like 5-6 NW 744 at the same time parked next to each other.


I kind of remember it this way, too. I lived in Tokyo and Hong Kong during the 90s and my impression was NW was bigger in Tokyo while United was bigger in Hong Kong. At one point United had three daily HKG-SFO flights which is kind of incredible to think about today. I really don't remember NW in 2000 being so big but they sure had a lot of intra-Asian flights. They were always the cheapest way to fly to SEL, TPE, HKG and SIN.


And NW (later DL) along with UA was definitely the cheapest way to fly from HKG to TYO for me. They were THE budget options before the day of LCCs. And you wonder why DL and UA no longer fly that route :).

But yes, United is definitely a known name in HK (Not b/c their service is all that great...it's not, especially when you compare to CX before their latest cost cutting exercise; but they were always a option with flights to LAX (Ended), SFO, and ORD). NW has an okay presence also, but in late 90s/early 00s, also being known as the airline who may send you to another airline just b/c they were constantly striking :white: .
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FSDan
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Thu May 23, 2019 8:26 pm

klm617 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Northwest pretty much left the Pacific After the Delta merger.


It's certainly true that the NRT operation has been drastically reduced (and will likely go away entirely by this time next year), but at the same time, DL's added a significant number of nonstop transpacific flights since the merger. At the time of the merger, NW was flying SEA-NRT, PDX-NRT, SFO-NRT, LAX-NRT, MSP-NRT, DTW-NRT, DTW-NGO, DTW-KIX, HNL-NRT, and HNL-KIX. All of those are still going except SFO-NRT and DTW-KIX (LAX-NRT and MSP-NRT were both moved to HND). Also at the time of the merger, DL was flying ATL-NRT, ATL-ICN, and ATL-PVG (the last two being cut shortly after the merger, and reinstated more recently).

Since the DL/NW merger, DL has added the following TPAC routes:
SEA-KIX
SEA-ICN
SEA-PEK
SEA-PVG
LAX-PVG
MSP-ICN
DTW-ICN
DTW-PEK
DTW-PVG
HNL-NGO

Other routes were tried and later cut: SEA-HKG, SLC-NRT, DTW-HKG, JFK-NRT, HNL-FUK.

As far as I can make out, that's a net change of +8 nonstop U.S.-East Asia routes since the time of the merger. I'm not sure what the net change in ASMs would look like... On the one hand, the 744s were retired and a bunch of intra-Asia routes were cut. On the other hand, DL flies a lot more long routes now to Asia than they used to. I'm not sure if it's a wash, if it's a decrease due to the smaller average gauge and cut NRT routes, or if it's an increase due to the addition of longer routes from DTW and SEA. Either way, DL has far from left the Pacific.


You forgot SEA-HND and DTW-HND which were both dropped plus capacity has been reduced due to the down gauge of equipment especially out of DTW and SEA. So Delta is reducing it's footprint to Asia slowly over time and will continue to do so.


The end result is still +8 nonstop U.S.-East Asia routes from the time of the merger until now. I already mentioned the reduction in gauge due to the 744 retirement (although I'll also point out that even with the 744 retirement, the daily capacity from NW's primary hubs of MSP+DTW to East Asia is basically flat since the merger, with more nonstop destination options; NRT is the big loser). In the near term, capacity is set to grow slightly as new A330-900s replace 208-seat 763s on SEA-East Asia routes. I don't expect any drastic reductions in East Asia capacity going forward, because DL will need to maintain capacity balance with KE in the JV arrangement.

Again, I'm not denying that DL is smaller in Asia than they used to be (particularly # of destinations), but they're still a very comfortable #2, and aren't anywhere close to "leaving the Pacific".
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RetiredWeasel
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Re: NW vs UA Who was stronger in TPAC network?

Fri May 24, 2019 5:38 pm

FSDan wrote:

I'm not 100% sure on this (I'm sure someone else can confirm or deny it), but I think they might have been NRT-based crews. The aircraft were certainly NRT-based, so there weren't regular rotations to bring them back to the mainland.


The pilots for the 757 intra asia flights with NW and later the A320 were all based in MSP or DTW. They were deadheaded to NRT and usually spent close to 12-13 days out there to get their hours and finish their month. The flight attendants were mixed USA based and Asian based. The aircraft were rotated back to the States for heavy MX checks.

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