seanpmassey
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 3:22 pm

Re: Should Airports Stop Building for 380 sized Aircraft?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:57 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Please. You're trying to tell me that ORD embarked on a multi-billion runway realignment project just because of the A380? How much did it really add up? Peanuts.
The drama and inflated costs were primarily (only?), a U.S. thing due to politics, corruption, and antiquated airport infrastructure. A lot of people got very rich out of those "high costs" of conversion. Our airports could barely handle 747's back then. Terminals were undersized and it was rare to see double jetways being used on widebodies. We were operating on 3rd world airport infrastructure. The improvements made for the A380 will make operating widebody aircraft of any size at U.S. airports significantly easier and above all safer for decades to come.
Look at LAX TBIT's today and compare it to TBIT before the A380, just as an example.


Are you saying ORD can make more money on one 3hr30min A380 turn over 6x A320/737 one hour turns, using the 80x80 box (A380=2x737/A320) formula? Maybe I am exaggerating a little bit, but you get the point.

The multi-billion investment is required to support the growth and will be recovered, the $millions spent on Code-F enhancements will not be recovered.


If I'm going to spend a couple of billion to realign my entire airport to support future growth, why not spend a few extra million at that point to do the Code-F enhancements? Even if the airport doesn't see a single A380 or 748, it's still cheaper to do it at build time than having to go back and install it later. And it future-proofs the airport in case any carriers want to use one of those aircraft in the future.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7071
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Should Airports Stop Building for 380 sized Aircraft?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:24 pm

seanpmassey wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
...
The multi-billion investment is required to support the growth and will be recovered, the $millions spent on Code-F enhancements will not be recovered.


If I'm going to spend a couple of billion to realign my entire airport to support future growth, why not spend a few extra million at that point to do the Code-F enhancements? Even if the airport doesn't see a single A380 or 748, it's still cheaper to do it at build time than having to go back and install it later. And it future-proofs the airport in case any carriers want to use one of those aircraft in the future.


I know everyone is using this justification but AFAIK ORD completed Code-F upgrades before they announced multi-billion facelift. How many A380s a day ORD getting now?

There are greenfield airports with Code-F runways which may never see a scheduled A380/748 service. No issues there because the cost is incremental.
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 5560
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: Should Airports Stop Building for 380 sized Aircraft?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:45 pm

When an airport is newly built, or an apron or a terminal - why not build for A380?

The additional costs to do so are absolutely negligible.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3673
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Should Airports Stop Building for 380 sized Aircraft?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:53 pm

I don't think in the long run it's going to make much difference as long as they don't build the Double Decker jetways. Passengers embark and Deplane every day at SFO without Double Decker Jet Bridges. everything Else? Can be used for other and Future Airplanes.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 895
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: Should Airports Stop Building for 380 sized Aircraft?

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:59 pm

If I were an airport considering it I'd wait to see how the folding wingtips work out. I expect if they do work as well as expected then we will see a lot more designs add them to fit into a box size down. In general I'd put the Code F gates as a nice to have but hardly a must have.
 
seanpmassey
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 3:22 pm

Re: Should Airports Stop Building for 380 sized Aircraft?

Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:17 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
...
The multi-billion investment is required to support the growth and will be recovered, the $millions spent on Code-F enhancements will not be recovered.


If I'm going to spend a couple of billion to realign my entire airport to support future growth, why not spend a few extra million at that point to do the Code-F enhancements? Even if the airport doesn't see a single A380 or 748, it's still cheaper to do it at build time than having to go back and install it later. And it future-proofs the airport in case any carriers want to use one of those aircraft in the future.


I know everyone is using this justification but AFAIK ORD completed Code-F upgrades before they announced multi-billion facelift. How many A380s a day ORD getting now?

There are greenfield airports with Code-F runways which may never see a scheduled A380/748 service. No issues there because the cost is incremental.


Which multi-billion dollar facelift are you talking about? The terminal one? Or the airfield reconfiguration one? If it's the latter, that program was approved by the FAA in 2005 and construction of the first A380-capable runway was completed in 2013. Any improvements to support the A380 would have been part of the airfield reconfiguration project, which has been going on for over a decade at this point.
 
michi
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:18 pm

Re: Should Airports Stop Building for 380 sized Aircraft?

Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:16 pm

Airports are constantly modified. New regulations, new aircraft and whatsoever requires a modernization of airport infrastructure all the time.

The demise of category D (ICAO Aerodrome Reference Code) / ADG IV (FAA Aircraft Design Group) aircraft (B757, B767 mostly) might trigger another redesign phase for airports as there is no future aircraft designed so far with a wingspan between 36m/118ft and 52m/171ft. All the new aircraft are either smaller C/III or larger E/V aircraft.

However, a lot of airports have D/IV gates, which are mainly used by B757 and B767. Those fine aircraft still fly, but for how long? What are the airports going to do with all those gates? Use the gates with smaller aircraft and loose lots of real estate? Or will they modify their setup of gates in order to get some better usage of the ramp space?

There are a few concepts of merging the different gate sizes in way, that the least possible amount of ramp space is lost. One example is the use of 1 F/VI gate which can also be used by 2 C/III aircraft at the same time.
MUC Terminal 2 also has an interesting gate concept. They have a mixture of gates with C/III and E/V stands, where it is not possible to use all gates at the same time. Still you don‘t loose that much space, as they have more jetways than parking positions. They have achived a good usage of real estate with different stand centerlines and gates/jetways configurations (the excess amount of jetways and centerlines is important here). No matter what aircraft is sitting at a stand, you can use the stand next to it, as there is a jetway and suitable centerline available. It is complicated and requires proper planning, but it works.

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