KlimaBXsst
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6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:44 pm

Putting 6 across in an A220...

Does anyone have any opinions pro or con for a 6 abreast family seating configuration, similar to the Channel Airways style Trident.

I envision a narrow middle seat in each 3 seat unit at the back of the cabin aft of the overwing exits for kids under 10 and under 60 pounds or so. Thoughts?
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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tistpaa727
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:46 pm

Is someone taking about this (link?)? Or are you just theorizing?

Personally this would be horrible in my view and would go against all of the positive feedback we hear airlines say passengers are providing.
Don't sweat the little things.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:57 pm

tistpaa727 wrote:
Is someone taking about this (link?)? Or are you just theorizing?

Personally this would be horrible in my view and would go against all of the positive feedback we hear airlines say passengers are providing.


Not that I am aware of yet? I am sure it is just a matter of time though, in free market capitalist open enterprise deregulated airline systems as in the US.

The A220 might make a great airplane for Southwest to compete with the likes of Allegiant, Frontier, and Spirit in the configuration I describe.

Here is a link to the Channel Airways 7 abreast Trident by the way.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:03 pm

tistpaa727 wrote:
Is someone taking about this....


Ah see I missed including the link to the Channel Airways 7 abreast “family style seating” Trident.

http://www.shockcone.co.uk/hs121/trident/variants.htm
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Amiga500
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:07 pm

BAe 146/Avro RJ fitted in 6 across and was a smaller cross section.

Could be done, but it'd be a horrible experience for all in the cabin - and would fly in the face of Airbus' PR crap on seat width.
 
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Btblue
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:10 pm

I remember flying on a Bae 146 with Buzz back in the day to Rome. Six abreast seating configuration, rammed in.

Making the A220 six abreast I would imagine is possible... Time will tell.

Sent from my EVR-L29 using Tapatalk
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:05 pm

Btblue wrote:
I remember flying on a Bae 146 with Buzz back in the day to Rome. Six abreast seating configuration, rammed in.

Making the A220 six abreast I would imagine is possible... Time will tell.

Sent from my EVR-L29 using Tapatalk


Yes they did configure some BAE 146’s this way in Europe... in America the airlines went 5 abreast on our 146’s.

I want to say in the US, it was Continental or National that used to have a very VERY TINY middle DC10 seat in (in the center of the 5 seats.

Martinair in Europe allegedly had a tiny “kiddie middle seat” on their DC 10s too.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
YYZYYT
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:12 pm

Not sure it can be done, at least not using normal seats.

The BAe 146 was a different case, while it was configured for 5 across often it is wider than the A220. Cabin width for the BAe 146 is 3.42m, which is close to the B737 at 3.54 m (or A320 at 3.70). So it's approximately 1 inch of lost width per seat compared to the 737.

A220 cabin width is 3.28 m, which is nearly 2 inches of lost width / seat, when compared to the B737. In fact, the A220 is far closer to the DC9 cabin width of 3.11. **

If you consider that the standard 737 seat is 17.2 inches, give or take, a seat at 15+ inches would be very tight, even on a short flight (Heck, even the "dreaded A330 9-abreast" seats are 16.7 inches, and standard bus seats are 17-18 inches... ).

** (Note that all of these measurements are from wikipedia).
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:07 pm

YYZYYT wrote:
Not sure it can be done, at least not using normal seats.

The BAe 146 was a different case, while it was configured for 5 across often it is wider than the A220. Cabin width for the BAe 146 is 3.42m, which is close to the B737 at 3.54 m (or A320 at 3.70). So it's approximately 1 inch of lost width per seat compared to the 737.

A220 cabin width is 3.28 m, which is nearly 2 inches of lost width / seat, when compared to the B737. In fact, the A220 is far closer to the DC9 cabin width of 3.11. **

If you consider that the standard 737 seat is 17.2 inches, give or take, a seat at 15+ inches would be very tight, even on a short flight (Heck, even the "dreaded A330 9-abreast" seats are 16.7 inches, and standard bus seats are 17-18 inches... ).

** (Note that all of these measurements are from wikipedia).


Yes the aisle and window seats would be very narrow 8 abreast 767 style or 9 abreast airbus a300 style but armrest space could be built into the back of the Kiddie 12 inch middle seats so when not occupied by a family they can always be fairly comfortable with just two fully grown people occupying that row.

I think the math comes out pretty close. Yes less than the 737 seat but not sold as anything narrower than a 737 when a non family is occupying the row.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:17 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
BAe 146/Avro RJ fitted in 6 across and was a smaller cross section.

Could be done, but it'd be a horrible experience for all in the cabin - and would fly in the face of Airbus' PR crap on seat width.


Market segmentation, at least in the US may permit a narrow “kid seat.” Time will tell.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
kimimm19
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:20 pm

I don't believe it's possible. People already complained about the nine abreast 787s and a330s. The widths talked about would be even less and I doubt, especially in America and the UK for example that many people could even sit down, let alone tolerate a few hour flight in it.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:40 pm

kimimm19 wrote:
I don't believe it's possible. People already complained about the nine abreast 787s and a330s. The widths talked about would be even less and I doubt, especially in America and the UK for example that many people could even sit down, let alone tolerate a few hour flight in it.


Cabin Width 129”

18”+12”+18”•17”•18”+12”+18”

With wiggle room on the kids seats!
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Amiga500
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:25 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
I don't believe it's possible. People already complained about the nine abreast 787s and a330s. The widths talked about would be even less and I doubt, especially in America and the UK for example that many people could even sit down, let alone tolerate a few hour flight in it.


Cabin Width 129”

18”+12”+18”•17”•18”+12”+18”

With wiggle room on the kids seats!


and if the kid seat could fold down to become a mini table/armrest you have 2+2 in very comfortable surroundings.
 
VSMUT
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:31 pm

Btblue wrote:
I remember flying on a Bae 146 with Buzz back in the day to Rome. Six abreast seating configuration, rammed in.


You can still enjoy these. Have had the endure them on both CityJet and WDL Aviation (both on behalf of HOP!) in the past year.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:02 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
I don't believe it's possible. People already complained about the nine abreast 787s and a330s. The widths talked about would be even less and I doubt, especially in America and the UK for example that many people could even sit down, let alone tolerate a few hour flight in it.


Cabin Width 129”

18”+12”+18”•17”•18”+12”+18”

With wiggle room on the kids seats!


and if the kid seat could fold down to become a mini table/armrest you have 2+2 in very comfortable surroundings.[/quotes]


(; similar thoughts exactly.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
IADCA
Posts: 1814
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:44 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
I don't believe it's possible. People already complained about the nine abreast 787s and a330s. The widths talked about would be even less and I doubt, especially in America and the UK for example that many people could even sit down, let alone tolerate a few hour flight in it.


Cabin Width 129”

18”+12”+18”•17”•18”+12”+18”

With wiggle room on the kids seats!


The problem is that you could only sell that config up to a 66% LF unless you have young kids on board, as a 12" seat is useless to anyone who is anywhere near adult size. You'd basically be taking 20% of the capacity out of every flight and then hoping that people bring at least that many children, to make it break even. When was the last time you were on a flight where 1/3 of the passengers (or even 1/6) were children who could sit in a seat that small? For me, I think the answer is never.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:26 pm

IADCA wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
Cabin Width 129”

18”+12”+18”•17”•18”+12”+18”

With wiggle room on the kids seats!


The problem is that you could only sell that config up to a 66% LF unless you have young kids on board, as a 12" seat is useless to anyone who is anywhere near adult size. You'd basically be taking 20% of the capacity out of every flight and then hoping that people bring at least that many children, to make it break even. When was the last time you were on a flight where 1/3 of the passengers (or even 1/6) were children who could sit in a seat that small? For me, I think the answer is never.


Well I do get your rationale but I will dispute your numbers especially considering we are not using 6 abreast with kiddie seats for the entire cabin but only aft of the exit rows or possibly even only 1/4 of the main cabin. You could also be increasing what is available to sale.

I see this more of a niche for the likes of Allegiant Frontier and Spirit or any who choose the A220 to explore.

One has to remember with the ULCC’s and the new air industry... upselling is always happening too! That kiddie seat could also benefit that coach passenger who has to buy two seat for his size, but does not necessarily need a full second seat.

That kiddie seat space could also come in handy when unoccupied for the business men who want a “more space” cabin to be able to work. Thanks for your response.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:03 am

For historical records. Channel Airways Trident Seat Map and description of Trident 1C - Trident 1E variants.

http://www.shockcone.co.uk/hs121/variants.htm
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
IADCA
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:26 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
IADCA wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
Cabin Width 129”

18”+12”+18”•17”•18”+12”+18”

With wiggle room on the kids seats!


The problem is that you could only sell that config up to a 66% LF unless you have young kids on board, as a 12" seat is useless to anyone who is anywhere near adult size. You'd basically be taking 20% of the capacity out of every flight and then hoping that people bring at least that many children, to make it break even. When was the last time you were on a flight where 1/3 of the passengers (or even 1/6) were children who could sit in a seat that small? For me, I think the answer is never.


Well I do get your rationale but I will dispute your numbers especially considering we are not using 6 abreast with kiddie seats for the entire cabin but only aft of the exit rows or possibly even only 1/4 of the main cabin. You could also be increasing what is available to sale.

I see this more of a niche for the likes of Allegiant Frontier and Spirit or any who choose the A220 to explore.

One has to remember with the ULCC’s and the new air industry... upselling is always happening too! That kiddie seat could also benefit that coach passenger who has to buy two seat for his size, but does not necessarily need a full second seat.

That kiddie seat space could also come in handy when unoccupied for the business men who want a “more space” cabin to be able to work. Thanks for your response.


Even over just the aft cabin, the math doesn't work. Roughly (very) mocked out using half the floor area (no premium cabin up front, so note that the math for Spirit would be worse) without kids, you'd only be able to sell up to an 83% LF without small children, which isn't enough for ULCCs. And unless you charge the same price for the kid seats as regular ones, the airlines would lose a lot of revenue on transporting kids in the smaller, cheaper seats. 1/4 it might, but at that point you're talking about a high-cost, low-revenue product spread a small part of a subfleet in niche markets.

And LOL at the idea of people voluntarily buying a spillover seat for their rolls. How many of those people actually buy 2 seats at present?
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:35 pm

IADCA wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
IADCA wrote:

The problem is that you could only sell that config up to a 66% LF unless you have young kids on board, as a 12" seat is useless to anyone who is anywhere near adult size. You'd basically be taking 20% of the capacity out of every flight and then hoping that people bring at least that many children, to make it break even. When was the last time you were on a flight where 1/3 of the passengers (or even 1/6) were children who could sit in a seat that small? For me, I think the answer is never.


Well I do get your rationale but I will dispute your numbers especially considering we are not using 6 abreast with kiddie seats for the entire cabin but only aft of the exit rows or possibly even only 1/4 of the main cabin. You could also be increasing what is available to sale.

I see this more of a niche for the likes of Allegiant Frontier and Spirit or any who choose the A220 to explore.

One has to remember with the ULCC’s and the new air industry... upselling is always happening too! That kiddie seat could also benefit that coach passenger who has to buy two seat for his size, but does not necessarily need a full second seat.

That kiddie seat space could also come in handy when unoccupied for the business men who want a “more space” cabin to be able to work. Thanks for your response.


Even over just the aft cabin, the math doesn't work. Roughly (very) mocked out using half the floor area (no premium cabin up front, so note that the math for Spirit would be worse) without kids, you'd only be able to sell up to an 83% LF without small children, which isn't enough for ULCCs. And unless you charge the same price for the kid seats as regular ones, the airlines would lose a lot of revenue on transporting kids in the smaller, cheaper seats. 1/4 it might, but at that point you're talking about a high-cost, low-revenue product spread a small part of a subfleet in niche markets.

And LOL at the idea of people voluntarily buying a spillover seat for their rolls. How many of those people actually buy 2 seats at present?


Okay ah ha. We will see, what Is done with the Airbus A220.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KentB27
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:33 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Cabin Width 129”

18”+12”+18”•17”•18”+12”+18”

With wiggle room on the kids seats!


I don't see any possible way that a 12" seat would comply with safety standards. Even for a child a 12" seat would be very narrow. Plus let's not forget about how prolific childhood obesity is becoming.
 
astuteman
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:03 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
I don't believe it's possible. People already complained about the nine abreast 787s and a330s. The widths talked about would be even less and I doubt, especially in America and the UK for example that many people could even sit down, let alone tolerate a few hour flight in it.


Cabin Width 129”

18”+12”+18”•17”•18”+12”+18”

With wiggle room on the kids seats!


16.5" seats with 1.5" armrests sounds the most likely config - it would allow an 18" aisle


1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"... +18"+..... 1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5" = 129"

Rgds
 
KlimaBXsst
Topic Author
Posts: 192
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Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:51 pm

astuteman wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
I don't believe it's possible. People already complained about the nine abreast 787s and a330s. The widths talked about would be even less and I doubt, especially in America and the UK for example that many people could even sit down, let alone tolerate a few hour flight in it.


Cabin Width 129”

18”+12”+18”•17”•18”+12”+18”

With wiggle room on the kids seats!


16.5" seats with 1.5" armrests sounds the most likely config - it would allow an 18" aisle


1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"... +18"+..... 1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5" = 129"

Rgds


Higher yielding ticket buyers would be quite adverse to sitting in a 16.5 seat that is why I am going with the “kiddie seat concept,”

(with wiggle room... or in other words to allow for whatever gov regs there are)

so there would never be 3 grown adults squished into a 3 16.5” seats next to one another.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
astuteman
Posts: 6798
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:52 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
astuteman wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:

Cabin Width 129”

18”+12”+18”•17”•18”+12”+18”

With wiggle room on the kids seats!


16.5" seats with 1.5" armrests sounds the most likely config - it would allow an 18" aisle


1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"... +18"+..... 1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5" = 129"

Rgds


Higher yielding ticket buyers would be quite adverse to sitting in a 16.5 seat that is why I am going with the “kiddie seat concept,”

(with wiggle room... or in other words to allow for whatever gov regs there are)

so there would never be 3 grown adults squished into a 3 16.5” seats next to one another.


Can't argue. 16.5" seats and 1.5" armrests is real ULCC territory.

Rgds
 
KlimaBXsst
Topic Author
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: 6 abreast A220 seating - Channel Airways style

Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:02 pm

astuteman wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
astuteman wrote:

16.5" seats with 1.5" armrests sounds the most likely config - it would allow an 18" aisle


1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"... +18"+..... 1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5"+16.5"+1.5" = 129"

Rgds


Higher yielding ticket buyers would be quite adverse to sitting in a 16.5 seat that is why I am going with the “kiddie seat concept,”

(with wiggle room... or in other words to allow for whatever gov regs there are)

so there would never be 3 grown adults squished into a 3 16.5” seats next to one another.


Can't argue. 16.5" seats and 1.5" armrests is real ULCC territory.

Rgds


The race to the ugly bottom should be fun to watch at the ULCCs, the B6’s and WN’s, and the US3 with regionals. The Embraer E2 and A220 are not a simple apples or oranges!

Rgds
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!

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