User avatar
enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 9387
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:29 pm

Since this could be a major strategy change for Frontier, I think this has to justify its own thread. F9 will take 18 A321XLR.

With the acquisition of the A321XLR, Frontier will have the ability to take on transatlantic routes to the U.K. and Western continental Europe. From Frontier’s main hub in Denver, Colorado we can see that many transatlantic destinations are within reach: Could we see Frontier offering flights to Portugal, France, or Spain? Or perhaps some Scandinavian cities like Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm? The possibilities are wide-ranging – especially if Frontier uses a departure city closer to the East Coast.

Again, this is just speculation based on aircraft range. However, if Frontier can make a profit flying transatlantic then their CEO might just go for it: “We’ll fly em where we can make the most money” – Barry Biffle, CEO of Frontier Airlines.

If transatlantic disruption is on the agenda for Frontier, it will be entering a fairly crowded space with legacy carriers dominating routes. The big three U.S. carriers dominate this area, but there is also a strong presence from the European legacy airlines.


https://simpleflying.com/frontier-trans ... ruption-2/
 
VS11
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:36 pm

If Norwegian can do it, why shouldn’t Frontier be able to do it? They can use Providence, RI as their origin city - they fly there, it is close to Boston, New England and the tri-state area. Summer services for a start should be a no-brainer.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:49 pm

VS11 wrote:
If Norwegian can do it, why shouldn’t Frontier be able to do it? They can use Providence, RI as their origin city - they fly there, it is close to Boston, New England and the tri-state area. Summer services for a start should be a no-brainer.

Norwegian can’t do it. They’re losing money hand over fist. No one yet has made long haul international minus cargo and premium cabin work......yet.

Is Den-Europe possibility on this plane? Hot summer evening, 90 degrees,
4000 mile flight with relatively small wings.
 
eaa3
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:57 pm

enilria wrote:
Since this could be a major strategy change for Frontier, I think this has to justify its own thread. F9 will take 18 A321XLR.

With the acquisition of the A321XLR, Frontier will have the ability to take on transatlantic routes to the U.K. and Western continental Europe. From Frontier’s main hub in Denver, Colorado we can see that many transatlantic destinations are within reach: Could we see Frontier offering flights to Portugal, France, or Spain? Or perhaps some Scandinavian cities like Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm? The possibilities are wide-ranging – especially if Frontier uses a departure city closer to the East Coast.

Again, this is just speculation based on aircraft range. However, if Frontier can make a profit flying transatlantic then their CEO might just go for it: “We’ll fly em where we can make the most money” – Barry Biffle, CEO of Frontier Airlines.

If transatlantic disruption is on the agenda for Frontier, it will be entering a fairly crowded space with legacy carriers dominating routes. The big three U.S. carriers dominate this area, but there is also a strong presence from the European legacy airlines.


https://simpleflying.com/frontier-trans ... ruption-2/


The critical flaw with Denver + A321XLR + transatlantic is that the aircraft can’t take off at anywhere close to MTOW from the Hot and High airport of Denver. Trust me, I’ve seen the calculations. The A321XLR will be incredible, but an A321 already needs a nice and long runway when it’s above 90 tons. Not B737-900ER takeoff distance, but still quit long.

From other hubs, it’s a game changer however.
 
User avatar
enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 9387
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:58 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
VS11 wrote:
If Norwegian can do it, why shouldn’t Frontier be able to do it? They can use Providence, RI as their origin city - they fly there, it is close to Boston, New England and the tri-state area. Summer services for a start should be a no-brainer.

Norwegian can’t do it. They’re losing money hand over fist. No one yet has made long haul international minus cargo and premium cabin work......yet.

Is Den-Europe possibility on this plane? Hot summer evening, 90 degrees,
4000 mile flight with relatively small wings.

F9 is no longer a DEN hub carrier. They could operate almost anything. Since Indigo had access to all of WOW's financials, I could easily see F9 doing 2/week to KEF from a handful of U.S. airports. Part of WOW's problem is that it is much easier to sell in your own country and the traffic was certainly not coming from Iceland. Beyond KEF, who knows? Stansted if B6 goes to LGW is also an option.
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:59 pm

Who says it has to be Europe? I could see F9 as a new disruptor to/from Hawaii.
Finally headed to DORKFEST! Sept 7, STL-LAX-PHX-STL. :cloudnine:
 
VS11
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:00 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
VS11 wrote:
If Norwegian can do it, why shouldn’t Frontier be able to do it? They can use Providence, RI as their origin city - they fly there, it is close to Boston, New England and the tri-state area. Summer services for a start should be a no-brainer.

Norwegian can’t do it. They’re losing money hand over fist. No one yet has made long haul international minus cargo and premium cabin work......yet.

Is Den-Europe possibility on this plane? Hot summer evening, 90 degrees,
4000 mile flight with relatively small wings.


Norwegian did fly the MAX on TATL routes - flying narrowbody TATL - that’s what I meant. How profitably - I don’t know but Willie Walsh, CEO of IAG did say Norwegian proved it can be done profitably so I am going to take his word for it per him being a pilot and ex-CEO of Aer Lingus and British Airways.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5217
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:04 am

'Cause five carriers to Hawaii isn't enough, including UA widebodies from DEN? F9 is weak from everywhere but DEN. If you think B6 is going to struggle TATL from JFK and BOS, let's see F9 try it from BWI or PVD. Money pit.

Now, if they want to try seasonal ANC from NYC/CHI/DFW/LAX/DEN, that could be interesting.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1869
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:09 am

Even if Denver were at sea level, Europe is too far.

International will need destination + alternate (and maybe a second alternate) + 45min gas.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
jfk777
Posts: 6958
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:18 am

At the Paris Air Show Airbus has given hope to every airline flying an A321 justification for flying to Europe. Why does Frontier want to fly to London , Paris or Amsterdam ? It is Nirvana, Ego, The Promised Land, just bragging rights ? Just because they could should they ? If flying the Atlantic with 737 or A321 were such a great business Ryannair & EasyJet would be the biggest airlines to Europe but they are not.

Frontier needs to continue doing what is has been doing and leave the Atlantic to the 787 & 777 flying airlines.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1656
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:19 am

F9 is getting the jet to fly Transconinental flights from the East to the West Coast.
 
QXorVX
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:45 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:23 am

While DEN may be their largest city, don't assume any of these "long-haul" (HI included) would be from DEN. Frontier is a ULCC point-to-point carrier. The longer stage A321 network will be a mismatch of origin cities all over the country to wherever.
 
VS11
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:23 am

freakyrat wrote:
F9 is getting the jet to fly Transconinental flights from the East to the West Coast.


Why do they need the XLR for that? The regular NEO should be sufficient.
 
QXorVX
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:45 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:24 am

Maybe see some revival of a few of the old DL routes from CVG to Europe? :) :)
 
QXorVX
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:45 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:26 am

VS11 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
F9 is getting the jet to fly Transconinental flights from the East to the West Coast.


Why do they need the XLR for that? The regular NEO should be sufficient.


240 pax + bags + winds, I would hope the A321NEO could take that on, but maybe it is just on the wrong side. I imagine a heavy plane like that drops range pretty quickly when the temp gets a little higher or winds blow a little stronger.
 
User avatar
enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 9387
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:32 am

QXorVX wrote:
VS11 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
F9 is getting the jet to fly Transconinental flights from the East to the West Coast.


Why do they need the XLR for that? The regular NEO should be sufficient.


240 pax + bags + winds, I would hope the A321NEO could take that on, but maybe it is just on the wrong side. I imagine a heavy plane like that drops range pretty quickly when the temp gets a little higher or winds blow a little stronger.

F9 is very cheap. I don't believe they would be paying the upcharge just to avoid a few diversions. It's either for Hawaii or Atlantic. If you couple it with Indigo's interest in WOW, it means Europe. Wizz is also getting 321XLRs. Perhaps they are going to recreate the KEF hub with Wizz on one side and F9 on the other?
 
eamondzhang
Posts: 1190
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:23 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:37 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
Who says it has to be Europe? I could see F9 as a new disruptor to/from Hawaii.

Well one doesn't need XLR capability if it's West Coast - Europe. Even CEO can do the job.

Michael
 
VS11
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:39 am

enilria wrote:
If you couple it with Indigo's interest in WOW, it means Europe. Wizz is also getting 321XLRs. Perhaps they are going to recreate the KEF hub with Wizz on one side and F9 on the other?


That's not a bad idea but they will have to sell tickets on both carriers seamlessly on one ticket.
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1864
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:48 am

Maybe they are planning Midwest/East to markets in Hawaii 2-3X weekly, maybe more from bigger cities. Its a sun destination that hasn't seen that 2-3X weekly strategy in the numbers we see to Florida and Las Vegas.
 
User avatar
zackary747
Posts: 583
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:41 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:20 am

VS11 wrote:
enilria wrote:
If you couple it with Indigo's interest in WOW, it means Europe. Wizz is also getting 321XLRs. Perhaps they are going to recreate the KEF hub with Wizz on one side and F9 on the other?


That's not a bad idea but they will have to sell tickets on both carriers seamlessly on one ticket.


This is an interesting concept and I think you're on to something. Frontier and Volaris already integrated their bookings with codeshares. (I could fly IND-LAS-GDL by booking on flyfrontier.com and the second leg is operated by Volaris). Frontier and Wizz could do the same via KEF if that is their plan of course.
Indianapolis Airport Spotter

Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Flickr
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3102
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:24 am

enilria wrote:
Since this could be a major strategy change for Frontier, I think this has to justify its own thread. F9 will take 18 A321XLR.

With the acquisition of the A321XLR, Frontier will have the ability to take on transatlantic routes to the U.K. and Western continental Europe. From Frontier’s main hub in Denver, Colorado we can see that many transatlantic destinations are within reach: Could we see Frontier offering flights to Portugal, France, or Spain? Or perhaps some Scandinavian cities like Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm? The possibilities are wide-ranging – especially if Frontier uses a departure city closer to the East Coast.

Again, this is just speculation based on aircraft range. However, if Frontier can make a profit flying transatlantic then their CEO might just go for it: “We’ll fly em where we can make the most money” – Barry Biffle, CEO of Frontier Airlines.

If transatlantic disruption is on the agenda for Frontier, it will be entering a fairly crowded space with legacy carriers dominating routes. The big three U.S. carriers dominate this area, but there is also a strong presence from the European legacy airlines.


https://simpleflying.com/frontier-trans ... ruption-2/


T-O from DEN in the summer could make DEN-LHR a non starter due to High altitude/hot climate.
 
Abeam79
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:16 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:58 am

Enilria, I always truly respect your opinions and posts, but flying over the pond with the product frontier offer and density is dead on arrival. You need not to look further than the experiment of Primera air. They were basically the equivalent, maybe even a little better product I would even add. And look how that ended up when they started flying over the pond. Frontier does not have relevant network on the mid west or eastern seaboard. If you don’t have that you’re guaranteed to fail. Just like Primera air. They had no relevant network on either end of the pond. B6 on the other hand, has a huge network in the cities they will fly transatlantic from, JFK and Boston. Plus they have an expansive codeshare network that could help them on the other side of the pond. Low-cost narrow body transatlantic flying needs to have a special secret sauce all of which B6 have. A lower price Point, better product than the competitors, and lower cost, and a very good premium product.
So if anything, frontier will use this more for transcontinental , maybe a few hops over to Hawaii, and maybe Denver a little bit further deeper into the Caribbean or Central America or northern South America if that. If you look at frontier they start a route and quickly give it up as soon as the market realizes they’re only good for one shot. Then they Move on. Certain markets work well for them like Orlando, because a lot of the flights they do are bearable for a couple of hours.
It’s all decent speculation but I would not bet on it that’s for sure .
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1496
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:25 am

What is F9's eastern most focus city/hub?
@DadCelo
 
User avatar
SierraPacific
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 1:48 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:27 am

gatibosgru wrote:
What is F9's eastern most focus city/hub?


They have a crew base in Philidelphia. I doubt that PHL would be the ideal place to launch LCC transatlantic service on account of AA though.
 
User avatar
gatibosgru
Posts: 1496
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:48 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:33 am

SierraPacific wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
What is F9's eastern most focus city/hub?


They have a crew base in Philidelphia. I doubt that PHL would be the ideal place to launch LCC transatlantic service on account of AA though.


Is it at all possible to connect to an Indigo group airline in KEF for example?
@DadCelo
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:35 am

My predictions are Hawaii and KEF (where they might start a codeshare with WIZZ?) then maybe Ireland/UK. Nothing more until after 2025.

I'd love to see Frontier start service to KEF with a WIZZ codeshare. It would not be the first time that Indigo wants to start something there... Maybe DEN/RDU/CLE/CVG/PHL to KEF?

With this, all of the indigo partner airlines would be connected! I'd be able to take a flight from London to South America (with only like 3 stops....)
What's the deal with airplane food?

Frontier Airlines: Spirit of the west
 
Varsity1
Posts: 1869
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:48 am

Triple connecting on a transatlantic ULCC?

Inhumane.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3248
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:52 am

This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.
 
VS11
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:08 am

Not sure if many folks here realize how much demand from the US to Europe there is during summertime, and how unaffordable it can be to go there during that time. On the legacy carriers, It is unreasonable to buy one-way ticket as they sell it for $2000, last minute fares are ridiculous as everything is sold out. For a family of 4 it could be out of reach to visit Europe and plenty of Americans want to do that. There is no doubt for me that Frontier can make money flying to Europe on the XLR, at least during Summer, even out of Trenton. They show up on search engines like Kayak so their services will get noticed. I have flown Frontier and Spirit domestically, Wow and Norwegian internationally and there is nothing peculiar about any of them. They provide excellent value.
 
rph99
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 3:27 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:14 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Triple connecting on a transatlantic ULCC?

Inhumane.


Very inhuman. But in a society where so many people (many without the money needed to do so i.e. us lovely millennials) want to travel to far off distances for cheap...this could be big. Think families willing to save a couple hundred dollars to sacrifice comfort. Idk...I love my frontier but I also tell people it’s an airline for people with piss poor credit scores. I think in this current economy, this could work.

However I don’t see transatlantic as a use for these planes. I’m thinking Hawaii from denver and vegas and the Caribbean/South America from western cities.

Excited to see the XLR in F9 colors...and to hopefully have someone make an FSX version too.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3102
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:21 am

enilria wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
VS11 wrote:
If Norwegian can do it, why shouldn’t Frontier be able to do it? They can use Providence, RI as their origin city - they fly there, it is close to Boston, New England and the tri-state area. Summer services for a start should be a no-brainer.

Norwegian can’t do it. They’re losing money hand over fist. No one yet has made long haul international minus cargo and premium cabin work......yet.

Is Den-Europe possibility on this plane? Hot summer evening, 90 degrees,
4000 mile flight with relatively small wings.

F9 is no longer a DEN hub carrier. They could operate almost anything. Since Indigo had access to all of WOW's financials, I could easily see F9 doing 2/week to KEF from a handful of U.S. airports. Part of WOW's problem is that it is much easier to sell in your own country and the traffic was certainly not coming from Iceland. Beyond KEF, who knows? Stansted if B6 goes to LGW is also an option.


You do realize as Indigo had access to WOW's financials as a bidder/buyer they cannot use those figures, crew data & scheduling information to start service on those routes. As they chose not to buy them if they did that they would face the same lawsuits Mesa Airlines did after they bid for both Aloha, then Hawaiian & used the information to undercut them. Result Aloha & Hawaiian entered lawsuits over it. Aloha while in bankrupcy over it had to drop the case. Hawaiian won a big settlement. Mesa left the market. If Aloha creditors had not dropped theirs. The creditors would have been able to recover more money. Very short sighted.
 
VS11
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:30 am

rbavfan wrote:
enilria wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Norwegian can’t do it. They’re losing money hand over fist. No one yet has made long haul international minus cargo and premium cabin work......yet.

Is Den-Europe possibility on this plane? Hot summer evening, 90 degrees,
4000 mile flight with relatively small wings.

F9 is no longer a DEN hub carrier. They could operate almost anything. Since Indigo had access to all of WOW's financials, I could easily see F9 doing 2/week to KEF from a handful of U.S. airports. Part of WOW's problem is that it is much easier to sell in your own country and the traffic was certainly not coming from Iceland. Beyond KEF, who knows? Stansted if B6 goes to LGW is also an option.


You do realize as Indigo had access to WOW's financials as a bidder/buyer they cannot use those figures, crew data & scheduling information to start service on those routes. As they chose not to buy them if they did that they would face the same lawsuits Mesa Airlines did after they bid for both Aloha, then Hawaiian & used the information to undercut them. Result Aloha & Hawaiian entered lawsuits over it. Aloha while in bankrupcy over it had to drop the case. Hawaiian won a big settlement. Mesa left the market. If Aloha creditors had not dropped theirs. The creditors would have been able to recover more money. Very short sighted.


Flying to KEF is not the same as setting a hub there. Also, by the time these XLR are flying with Indigo Partners airlines, it would be several years since whatever non-compete agreements Indigo Partners signed so doubtful they would be still in effect and/or enforceable. There is no way WOW can prove they went out of business because Frontier/Wizz started flying out of KEF several years after WOW went bankrupt.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1477
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:56 am

eamondzhang wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
Who says it has to be Europe? I could see F9 as a new disruptor to/from Hawaii.

Well one doesn't need XLR capability if it's West Coast - Europe. Even CEO can do the job.

Michael

DEN to LHR is 4,660 miles don’t think with ETOPS extra fuel requirements it can’t make it.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1659
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:59 am

ISP-Europe
Flyguy
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:07 am

QXorVX wrote:
Maybe see some revival of a few of the old DL routes from CVG to Europe? :) :)


Some of them, but certainly not all of them. Let's take a look . . .

AMS, CDG - Forget those, they are SkyTeam fortress hubs.
FCO - Too far, especially flying the return westbound. But, maybe CIO, in time (but no time soon!).
ZRH - Not enough demand. Back in the Nineties, Delta's CVG-ZRH flight was filled by connecting passengers. That flight also supported DL's now-defunct Atlantic Excellence program, including codeshares with Sabena & Swissair.
BRU - See ZRH.

That leaves a couple of other more promising possibilities . . .

FRA - A great number of Cincinnati's families originally came from Germany & there's even a chance of luring some (not a lot) of business traffic. But, can the A321XLR handle the westbound nonstop without a tech stop?
LGW - Delta's original TATL destination from CVG (ATL, too!). DL's inaugural CVG-LGW flight was operated with an L-1011, later with a 777. Loads were always good (admittedly with the connecting traffic). Still, I have never understood why no other carriers have been interested in this route.

Have a great weekend! -SkyVoice
"Your talents may take you where your character can not keep you." - Terry Nelson
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:07 am

sorry, duplicate thread - mods, please delete - thank you!
"Your talents may take you where your character can not keep you." - Terry Nelson
 
raddek
Posts: 321
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:09 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:09 am

I agree with earlier posts. F9 does not have the feeding network to fill these planes up when you run 2-4x weekly service to many of your destinations.

Now, an airline with a very fast growing Network, that "could" make it work, would be NK. This plane is perfect for BWI to Europe and they can bank their arrivals and departures to fill em up. Add the local DC area O&D Traffic and you might have something.

I am sure it's a Longshot, but I believe the current growing NK network might be able to make it work. But I suppose they need to order this a/c variant first before any further speculations.

Plus, if they did order this aircraft, it would be going South from MCO and FLL first, way before TATL.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1477
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:12 am

wnflyguy wrote:
ISP-Europe
Flyguy

Are there US Customs at Islip?
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 2997
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:18 am

I did PVD-BGO on a regular 738 and it was no problem, would it have been nicer on a bigger plane? Yes.... did I care as much since I paid $350.... no.

The DY example is mixed because some things like BGO made zero sense however larger markets like DUB have shown staying power. So something like STN and LIS could have potential from a place like PVD
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
speedbird52
Posts: 745
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:25 am

eaa3 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Since this could be a major strategy change for Frontier, I think this has to justify its own thread. F9 will take 18 A321XLR.

With the acquisition of the A321XLR, Frontier will have the ability to take on transatlantic routes to the U.K. and Western continental Europe. From Frontier’s main hub in Denver, Colorado we can see that many transatlantic destinations are within reach: Could we see Frontier offering flights to Portugal, France, or Spain? Or perhaps some Scandinavian cities like Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm? The possibilities are wide-ranging – especially if Frontier uses a departure city closer to the East Coast.

Again, this is just speculation based on aircraft range. However, if Frontier can make a profit flying transatlantic then their CEO might just go for it: “We’ll fly em where we can make the most money” – Barry Biffle, CEO of Frontier Airlines.

If transatlantic disruption is on the agenda for Frontier, it will be entering a fairly crowded space with legacy carriers dominating routes. The big three U.S. carriers dominate this area, but there is also a strong presence from the European legacy airlines.


https://simpleflying.com/frontier-trans ... ruption-2/


The critical flaw with Denver + A321XLR + transatlantic is that the aircraft can’t take off at anywhere close to MTOW from the Hot and High airport of Denver. Trust me, I’ve seen the calculations. The A321XLR will be incredible, but an A321 already needs a nice and long runway when it’s above 90 tons. Not B737-900ER takeoff distance, but still quit long.

From other hubs, it’s a game changer however.

When will the MTOW/fuel burn changes be public? I was hoping to try and take a shot at making TOW/range charts
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:26 am

MSPNWA wrote:
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.


Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1477
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:57 am

ctrabs0114 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.


Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

With ETOPS fuel no way, DEN-LGW 4,600 miles. Won’t be qualified to fly that route.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=den-lgw
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6696
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:40 am

How about western US to Caribbean?
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
User avatar
Acey
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:04 am

Boof02671 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.


Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

With ETOPS fuel no way, DEN-LGW 4,600 miles. Won’t be qualified to fly that route.


What if I told you a statute mile and a nautical mile are not the same thing? Would it turn your life upside down?

It saddens me how many years I've been on this website and people still don't know the difference between miles and nautical miles. It's an issue with every single thread an aircraft range is cited, and invalidates half the posts.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:11 am

Boof02671 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.


Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

With ETOPS fuel no way, DEN-LGW 4,600 miles. Won’t be qualified to fly that route.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=den-lgw


I was referring more to DEN-HNL. Would the same issues prevent the XLR from serving that route? (It's my fault for not clarifying the intent of my question.)
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
User avatar
Acey
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:13 am

DEN-HNL is less than 3,000 nm and Airbus claims 4,700 nm. Despite whatever satantic config F9 does I imagine it would be able to do it, despite DEN conditions.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Olddog
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:41 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:36 am

Boof02671 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.


Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

With ETOPS fuel no way, DEN-LGW 4,600 miles. Won’t be qualified to fly that route.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=den-lgw


It is me or your posts are confusing statute miles and nautical miles ?

To my knowledge den to lhr is only 4082 nautical miles
 
User avatar
Acey
Posts: 1117
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:49 am

TWA772LR wrote:
How about western US to Caribbean?

SEA-POS is 3,768 nm; pretty much the longest route that could be described as "western US to Caribbean", and also one nobody will likely ever fly. Anything else is shorter and subject pretty much only to runway length constraints.

These are sectors coming up on 9 hours westbound against the wind. In an A321. What a time to be alive.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
ethernal
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:01 am

Olddog wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:

Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

With ETOPS fuel no way, DEN-LGW 4,600 miles. Won’t be qualified to fly that route.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=den-lgw


It is me or your posts are confusing statute miles and nautical miles ?

To my knowledge den to lhr is only 4082 nautical miles


It would obviously depend on the config (a tight all-Y config would have issues.. but god I hope it isn't tight all-Y), but even with high and hot Denver they a standard XLR config could make it Eastbound without too much of an issue due to the tailwinds. Westbound is the challenge, but there would be no high and hot (more like "low and dreary" ;)) issues there.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6696
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:12 am

Acey wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
How about western US to Caribbean?

SEA-POS is 3,768 nm; pretty much the longest route that could be described as "western US to Caribbean", and also one nobody will likely ever fly. Anything else is shorter and subject pretty much only to runway length constraints.

These are sectors coming up on 9 hours westbound against the wind. In an A321. What a time to be alive.

I was thinking more like DEN to DR and the like.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: HP69 and 20 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos