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F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:29 pm
by enilria
Since this could be a major strategy change for Frontier, I think this has to justify its own thread. F9 will take 18 A321XLR.

With the acquisition of the A321XLR, Frontier will have the ability to take on transatlantic routes to the U.K. and Western continental Europe. From Frontier’s main hub in Denver, Colorado we can see that many transatlantic destinations are within reach: Could we see Frontier offering flights to Portugal, France, or Spain? Or perhaps some Scandinavian cities like Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm? The possibilities are wide-ranging – especially if Frontier uses a departure city closer to the East Coast.

Again, this is just speculation based on aircraft range. However, if Frontier can make a profit flying transatlantic then their CEO might just go for it: “We’ll fly em where we can make the most money” – Barry Biffle, CEO of Frontier Airlines.

If transatlantic disruption is on the agenda for Frontier, it will be entering a fairly crowded space with legacy carriers dominating routes. The big three U.S. carriers dominate this area, but there is also a strong presence from the European legacy airlines.


https://simpleflying.com/frontier-trans ... ruption-2/

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:36 pm
by VS11
If Norwegian can do it, why shouldn’t Frontier be able to do it? They can use Providence, RI as their origin city - they fly there, it is close to Boston, New England and the tri-state area. Summer services for a start should be a no-brainer.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:49 pm
by Bobloblaw
VS11 wrote:
If Norwegian can do it, why shouldn’t Frontier be able to do it? They can use Providence, RI as their origin city - they fly there, it is close to Boston, New England and the tri-state area. Summer services for a start should be a no-brainer.

Norwegian can’t do it. They’re losing money hand over fist. No one yet has made long haul international minus cargo and premium cabin work......yet.

Is Den-Europe possibility on this plane? Hot summer evening, 90 degrees,
4000 mile flight with relatively small wings.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:57 pm
by eaa3
enilria wrote:
Since this could be a major strategy change for Frontier, I think this has to justify its own thread. F9 will take 18 A321XLR.

With the acquisition of the A321XLR, Frontier will have the ability to take on transatlantic routes to the U.K. and Western continental Europe. From Frontier’s main hub in Denver, Colorado we can see that many transatlantic destinations are within reach: Could we see Frontier offering flights to Portugal, France, or Spain? Or perhaps some Scandinavian cities like Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm? The possibilities are wide-ranging – especially if Frontier uses a departure city closer to the East Coast.

Again, this is just speculation based on aircraft range. However, if Frontier can make a profit flying transatlantic then their CEO might just go for it: “We’ll fly em where we can make the most money” – Barry Biffle, CEO of Frontier Airlines.

If transatlantic disruption is on the agenda for Frontier, it will be entering a fairly crowded space with legacy carriers dominating routes. The big three U.S. carriers dominate this area, but there is also a strong presence from the European legacy airlines.


https://simpleflying.com/frontier-trans ... ruption-2/


The critical flaw with Denver + A321XLR + transatlantic is that the aircraft can’t take off at anywhere close to MTOW from the Hot and High airport of Denver. Trust me, I’ve seen the calculations. The A321XLR will be incredible, but an A321 already needs a nice and long runway when it’s above 90 tons. Not B737-900ER takeoff distance, but still quit long.

From other hubs, it’s a game changer however.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:58 pm
by enilria
Bobloblaw wrote:
VS11 wrote:
If Norwegian can do it, why shouldn’t Frontier be able to do it? They can use Providence, RI as their origin city - they fly there, it is close to Boston, New England and the tri-state area. Summer services for a start should be a no-brainer.

Norwegian can’t do it. They’re losing money hand over fist. No one yet has made long haul international minus cargo and premium cabin work......yet.

Is Den-Europe possibility on this plane? Hot summer evening, 90 degrees,
4000 mile flight with relatively small wings.

F9 is no longer a DEN hub carrier. They could operate almost anything. Since Indigo had access to all of WOW's financials, I could easily see F9 doing 2/week to KEF from a handful of U.S. airports. Part of WOW's problem is that it is much easier to sell in your own country and the traffic was certainly not coming from Iceland. Beyond KEF, who knows? Stansted if B6 goes to LGW is also an option.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:59 pm
by OzarkD9S
Who says it has to be Europe? I could see F9 as a new disruptor to/from Hawaii.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:00 am
by VS11
Bobloblaw wrote:
VS11 wrote:
If Norwegian can do it, why shouldn’t Frontier be able to do it? They can use Providence, RI as their origin city - they fly there, it is close to Boston, New England and the tri-state area. Summer services for a start should be a no-brainer.

Norwegian can’t do it. They’re losing money hand over fist. No one yet has made long haul international minus cargo and premium cabin work......yet.

Is Den-Europe possibility on this plane? Hot summer evening, 90 degrees,
4000 mile flight with relatively small wings.


Norwegian did fly the MAX on TATL routes - flying narrowbody TATL - that’s what I meant. How profitably - I don’t know but Willie Walsh, CEO of IAG did say Norwegian proved it can be done profitably so I am going to take his word for it per him being a pilot and ex-CEO of Aer Lingus and British Airways.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:04 am
by MIflyer12
'Cause five carriers to Hawaii isn't enough, including UA widebodies from DEN? F9 is weak from everywhere but DEN. If you think B6 is going to struggle TATL from JFK and BOS, let's see F9 try it from BWI or PVD. Money pit.

Now, if they want to try seasonal ANC from NYC/CHI/DFW/LAX/DEN, that could be interesting.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:09 am
by Varsity1
Even if Denver were at sea level, Europe is too far.

International will need destination + alternate (and maybe a second alternate) + 45min gas.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:18 am
by jfk777
At the Paris Air Show Airbus has given hope to every airline flying an A321 justification for flying to Europe. Why does Frontier want to fly to London , Paris or Amsterdam ? It is Nirvana, Ego, The Promised Land, just bragging rights ? Just because they could should they ? If flying the Atlantic with 737 or A321 were such a great business Ryannair & EasyJet would be the biggest airlines to Europe but they are not.

Frontier needs to continue doing what is has been doing and leave the Atlantic to the 787 & 777 flying airlines.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:19 am
by freakyrat
F9 is getting the jet to fly Transconinental flights from the East to the West Coast.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:23 am
by QXorVX
While DEN may be their largest city, don't assume any of these "long-haul" (HI included) would be from DEN. Frontier is a ULCC point-to-point carrier. The longer stage A321 network will be a mismatch of origin cities all over the country to wherever.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:23 am
by VS11
freakyrat wrote:
F9 is getting the jet to fly Transconinental flights from the East to the West Coast.


Why do they need the XLR for that? The regular NEO should be sufficient.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:24 am
by QXorVX
Maybe see some revival of a few of the old DL routes from CVG to Europe? :) :)

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:26 am
by QXorVX
VS11 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
F9 is getting the jet to fly Transconinental flights from the East to the West Coast.


Why do they need the XLR for that? The regular NEO should be sufficient.


240 pax + bags + winds, I would hope the A321NEO could take that on, but maybe it is just on the wrong side. I imagine a heavy plane like that drops range pretty quickly when the temp gets a little higher or winds blow a little stronger.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:32 am
by enilria
QXorVX wrote:
VS11 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
F9 is getting the jet to fly Transconinental flights from the East to the West Coast.


Why do they need the XLR for that? The regular NEO should be sufficient.


240 pax + bags + winds, I would hope the A321NEO could take that on, but maybe it is just on the wrong side. I imagine a heavy plane like that drops range pretty quickly when the temp gets a little higher or winds blow a little stronger.

F9 is very cheap. I don't believe they would be paying the upcharge just to avoid a few diversions. It's either for Hawaii or Atlantic. If you couple it with Indigo's interest in WOW, it means Europe. Wizz is also getting 321XLRs. Perhaps they are going to recreate the KEF hub with Wizz on one side and F9 on the other?

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:37 am
by eamondzhang
OzarkD9S wrote:
Who says it has to be Europe? I could see F9 as a new disruptor to/from Hawaii.

Well one doesn't need XLR capability if it's West Coast - Europe. Even CEO can do the job.

Michael

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:39 am
by VS11
enilria wrote:
If you couple it with Indigo's interest in WOW, it means Europe. Wizz is also getting 321XLRs. Perhaps they are going to recreate the KEF hub with Wizz on one side and F9 on the other?


That's not a bad idea but they will have to sell tickets on both carriers seamlessly on one ticket.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:48 am
by spinkid
Maybe they are planning Midwest/East to markets in Hawaii 2-3X weekly, maybe more from bigger cities. Its a sun destination that hasn't seen that 2-3X weekly strategy in the numbers we see to Florida and Las Vegas.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:20 am
by zackary747
VS11 wrote:
enilria wrote:
If you couple it with Indigo's interest in WOW, it means Europe. Wizz is also getting 321XLRs. Perhaps they are going to recreate the KEF hub with Wizz on one side and F9 on the other?


That's not a bad idea but they will have to sell tickets on both carriers seamlessly on one ticket.


This is an interesting concept and I think you're on to something. Frontier and Volaris already integrated their bookings with codeshares. (I could fly IND-LAS-GDL by booking on flyfrontier.com and the second leg is operated by Volaris). Frontier and Wizz could do the same via KEF if that is their plan of course.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:24 am
by rbavfan
enilria wrote:
Since this could be a major strategy change for Frontier, I think this has to justify its own thread. F9 will take 18 A321XLR.

With the acquisition of the A321XLR, Frontier will have the ability to take on transatlantic routes to the U.K. and Western continental Europe. From Frontier’s main hub in Denver, Colorado we can see that many transatlantic destinations are within reach: Could we see Frontier offering flights to Portugal, France, or Spain? Or perhaps some Scandinavian cities like Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm? The possibilities are wide-ranging – especially if Frontier uses a departure city closer to the East Coast.

Again, this is just speculation based on aircraft range. However, if Frontier can make a profit flying transatlantic then their CEO might just go for it: “We’ll fly em where we can make the most money” – Barry Biffle, CEO of Frontier Airlines.

If transatlantic disruption is on the agenda for Frontier, it will be entering a fairly crowded space with legacy carriers dominating routes. The big three U.S. carriers dominate this area, but there is also a strong presence from the European legacy airlines.


https://simpleflying.com/frontier-trans ... ruption-2/


T-O from DEN in the summer could make DEN-LHR a non starter due to High altitude/hot climate.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:58 am
by Abeam79
Enilria, I always truly respect your opinions and posts, but flying over the pond with the product frontier offer and density is dead on arrival. You need not to look further than the experiment of Primera air. They were basically the equivalent, maybe even a little better product I would even add. And look how that ended up when they started flying over the pond. Frontier does not have relevant network on the mid west or eastern seaboard. If you don’t have that you’re guaranteed to fail. Just like Primera air. They had no relevant network on either end of the pond. B6 on the other hand, has a huge network in the cities they will fly transatlantic from, JFK and Boston. Plus they have an expansive codeshare network that could help them on the other side of the pond. Low-cost narrow body transatlantic flying needs to have a special secret sauce all of which B6 have. A lower price Point, better product than the competitors, and lower cost, and a very good premium product.
So if anything, frontier will use this more for transcontinental , maybe a few hops over to Hawaii, and maybe Denver a little bit further deeper into the Caribbean or Central America or northern South America if that. If you look at frontier they start a route and quickly give it up as soon as the market realizes they’re only good for one shot. Then they Move on. Certain markets work well for them like Orlando, because a lot of the flights they do are bearable for a couple of hours.
It’s all decent speculation but I would not bet on it that’s for sure .

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:25 am
by gatibosgru
What is F9's eastern most focus city/hub?

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:27 am
by SierraPacific
gatibosgru wrote:
What is F9's eastern most focus city/hub?


They have a crew base in Philidelphia. I doubt that PHL would be the ideal place to launch LCC transatlantic service on account of AA though.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:33 am
by gatibosgru
SierraPacific wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
What is F9's eastern most focus city/hub?


They have a crew base in Philidelphia. I doubt that PHL would be the ideal place to launch LCC transatlantic service on account of AA though.


Is it at all possible to connect to an Indigo group airline in KEF for example?

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:35 am
by Gulfstream500
My predictions are Hawaii and KEF (where they might start a codeshare with WIZZ?) then maybe Ireland/UK. Nothing more until after 2025.

I'd love to see Frontier start service to KEF with a WIZZ codeshare. It would not be the first time that Indigo wants to start something there... Maybe DEN/RDU/CLE/CVG/PHL to KEF?

With this, all of the indigo partner airlines would be connected! I'd be able to take a flight from London to South America (with only like 3 stops....)

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:48 am
by Varsity1
Triple connecting on a transatlantic ULCC?

Inhumane.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:52 am
by MSPNWA
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:08 am
by VS11
Not sure if many folks here realize how much demand from the US to Europe there is during summertime, and how unaffordable it can be to go there during that time. On the legacy carriers, It is unreasonable to buy one-way ticket as they sell it for $2000, last minute fares are ridiculous as everything is sold out. For a family of 4 it could be out of reach to visit Europe and plenty of Americans want to do that. There is no doubt for me that Frontier can make money flying to Europe on the XLR, at least during Summer, even out of Trenton. They show up on search engines like Kayak so their services will get noticed. I have flown Frontier and Spirit domestically, Wow and Norwegian internationally and there is nothing peculiar about any of them. They provide excellent value.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:14 am
by rph99
Varsity1 wrote:
Triple connecting on a transatlantic ULCC?

Inhumane.


Very inhuman. But in a society where so many people (many without the money needed to do so i.e. us lovely millennials) want to travel to far off distances for cheap...this could be big. Think families willing to save a couple hundred dollars to sacrifice comfort. Idk...I love my frontier but I also tell people it’s an airline for people with piss poor credit scores. I think in this current economy, this could work.

However I don’t see transatlantic as a use for these planes. I’m thinking Hawaii from denver and vegas and the Caribbean/South America from western cities.

Excited to see the XLR in F9 colors...and to hopefully have someone make an FSX version too.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:21 am
by rbavfan
enilria wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
VS11 wrote:
If Norwegian can do it, why shouldn’t Frontier be able to do it? They can use Providence, RI as their origin city - they fly there, it is close to Boston, New England and the tri-state area. Summer services for a start should be a no-brainer.

Norwegian can’t do it. They’re losing money hand over fist. No one yet has made long haul international minus cargo and premium cabin work......yet.

Is Den-Europe possibility on this plane? Hot summer evening, 90 degrees,
4000 mile flight with relatively small wings.

F9 is no longer a DEN hub carrier. They could operate almost anything. Since Indigo had access to all of WOW's financials, I could easily see F9 doing 2/week to KEF from a handful of U.S. airports. Part of WOW's problem is that it is much easier to sell in your own country and the traffic was certainly not coming from Iceland. Beyond KEF, who knows? Stansted if B6 goes to LGW is also an option.


You do realize as Indigo had access to WOW's financials as a bidder/buyer they cannot use those figures, crew data & scheduling information to start service on those routes. As they chose not to buy them if they did that they would face the same lawsuits Mesa Airlines did after they bid for both Aloha, then Hawaiian & used the information to undercut them. Result Aloha & Hawaiian entered lawsuits over it. Aloha while in bankrupcy over it had to drop the case. Hawaiian won a big settlement. Mesa left the market. If Aloha creditors had not dropped theirs. The creditors would have been able to recover more money. Very short sighted.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:30 am
by VS11
rbavfan wrote:
enilria wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Norwegian can’t do it. They’re losing money hand over fist. No one yet has made long haul international minus cargo and premium cabin work......yet.

Is Den-Europe possibility on this plane? Hot summer evening, 90 degrees,
4000 mile flight with relatively small wings.

F9 is no longer a DEN hub carrier. They could operate almost anything. Since Indigo had access to all of WOW's financials, I could easily see F9 doing 2/week to KEF from a handful of U.S. airports. Part of WOW's problem is that it is much easier to sell in your own country and the traffic was certainly not coming from Iceland. Beyond KEF, who knows? Stansted if B6 goes to LGW is also an option.


You do realize as Indigo had access to WOW's financials as a bidder/buyer they cannot use those figures, crew data & scheduling information to start service on those routes. As they chose not to buy them if they did that they would face the same lawsuits Mesa Airlines did after they bid for both Aloha, then Hawaiian & used the information to undercut them. Result Aloha & Hawaiian entered lawsuits over it. Aloha while in bankrupcy over it had to drop the case. Hawaiian won a big settlement. Mesa left the market. If Aloha creditors had not dropped theirs. The creditors would have been able to recover more money. Very short sighted.


Flying to KEF is not the same as setting a hub there. Also, by the time these XLR are flying with Indigo Partners airlines, it would be several years since whatever non-compete agreements Indigo Partners signed so doubtful they would be still in effect and/or enforceable. There is no way WOW can prove they went out of business because Frontier/Wizz started flying out of KEF several years after WOW went bankrupt.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:56 am
by Boof02671
eamondzhang wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
Who says it has to be Europe? I could see F9 as a new disruptor to/from Hawaii.

Well one doesn't need XLR capability if it's West Coast - Europe. Even CEO can do the job.

Michael

DEN to LHR is 4,660 miles don’t think with ETOPS extra fuel requirements it can’t make it.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:59 am
by wnflyguy
ISP-Europe
Flyguy

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:07 am
by SkyVoice
QXorVX wrote:
Maybe see some revival of a few of the old DL routes from CVG to Europe? :) :)


Some of them, but certainly not all of them. Let's take a look . . .

AMS, CDG - Forget those, they are SkyTeam fortress hubs.
FCO - Too far, especially flying the return westbound. But, maybe CIO, in time (but no time soon!).
ZRH - Not enough demand. Back in the Nineties, Delta's CVG-ZRH flight was filled by connecting passengers. That flight also supported DL's now-defunct Atlantic Excellence program, including codeshares with Sabena & Swissair.
BRU - See ZRH.

That leaves a couple of other more promising possibilities . . .

FRA - A great number of Cincinnati's families originally came from Germany & there's even a chance of luring some (not a lot) of business traffic. But, can the A321XLR handle the westbound nonstop without a tech stop?
LGW - Delta's original TATL destination from CVG (ATL, too!). DL's inaugural CVG-LGW flight was operated with an L-1011, later with a 777. Loads were always good (admittedly with the connecting traffic). Still, I have never understood why no other carriers have been interested in this route.

Have a great weekend! -SkyVoice

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:07 am
by SkyVoice
sorry, duplicate thread - mods, please delete - thank you!

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:09 am
by raddek
I agree with earlier posts. F9 does not have the feeding network to fill these planes up when you run 2-4x weekly service to many of your destinations.

Now, an airline with a very fast growing Network, that "could" make it work, would be NK. This plane is perfect for BWI to Europe and they can bank their arrivals and departures to fill em up. Add the local DC area O&D Traffic and you might have something.

I am sure it's a Longshot, but I believe the current growing NK network might be able to make it work. But I suppose they need to order this a/c variant first before any further speculations.

Plus, if they did order this aircraft, it would be going South from MCO and FLL first, way before TATL.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:12 am
by Boof02671
wnflyguy wrote:
ISP-Europe
Flyguy

Are there US Customs at Islip?

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:18 am
by RL757PVD
I did PVD-BGO on a regular 738 and it was no problem, would it have been nicer on a bigger plane? Yes.... did I care as much since I paid $350.... no.

The DY example is mixed because some things like BGO made zero sense however larger markets like DUB have shown staying power. So something like STN and LIS could have potential from a place like PVD

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:25 am
by speedbird52
eaa3 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Since this could be a major strategy change for Frontier, I think this has to justify its own thread. F9 will take 18 A321XLR.

With the acquisition of the A321XLR, Frontier will have the ability to take on transatlantic routes to the U.K. and Western continental Europe. From Frontier’s main hub in Denver, Colorado we can see that many transatlantic destinations are within reach: Could we see Frontier offering flights to Portugal, France, or Spain? Or perhaps some Scandinavian cities like Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm? The possibilities are wide-ranging – especially if Frontier uses a departure city closer to the East Coast.

Again, this is just speculation based on aircraft range. However, if Frontier can make a profit flying transatlantic then their CEO might just go for it: “We’ll fly em where we can make the most money” – Barry Biffle, CEO of Frontier Airlines.

If transatlantic disruption is on the agenda for Frontier, it will be entering a fairly crowded space with legacy carriers dominating routes. The big three U.S. carriers dominate this area, but there is also a strong presence from the European legacy airlines.


https://simpleflying.com/frontier-trans ... ruption-2/


The critical flaw with Denver + A321XLR + transatlantic is that the aircraft can’t take off at anywhere close to MTOW from the Hot and High airport of Denver. Trust me, I’ve seen the calculations. The A321XLR will be incredible, but an A321 already needs a nice and long runway when it’s above 90 tons. Not B737-900ER takeoff distance, but still quit long.

From other hubs, it’s a game changer however.

When will the MTOW/fuel burn changes be public? I was hoping to try and take a shot at making TOW/range charts

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:26 am
by ctrabs0114
MSPNWA wrote:
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.


Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:57 am
by Boof02671
ctrabs0114 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.


Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

With ETOPS fuel no way, DEN-LGW 4,600 miles. Won’t be qualified to fly that route.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=den-lgw

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:40 am
by TWA772LR
How about western US to Caribbean?

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:04 am
by Acey
Boof02671 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.


Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

With ETOPS fuel no way, DEN-LGW 4,600 miles. Won’t be qualified to fly that route.


What if I told you a statute mile and a nautical mile are not the same thing? Would it turn your life upside down?

It saddens me how many years I've been on this website and people still don't know the difference between miles and nautical miles. It's an issue with every single thread an aircraft range is cited, and invalidates half the posts.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:11 am
by ctrabs0114
Boof02671 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.


Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

With ETOPS fuel no way, DEN-LGW 4,600 miles. Won’t be qualified to fly that route.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=den-lgw


I was referring more to DEN-HNL. Would the same issues prevent the XLR from serving that route? (It's my fault for not clarifying the intent of my question.)

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:13 am
by Acey
DEN-HNL is less than 3,000 nm and Airbus claims 4,700 nm. Despite whatever satantic config F9 does I imagine it would be able to do it, despite DEN conditions.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:36 am
by Olddog
Boof02671 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
This order makes no sense to me. Long-haul ULCC has been a failure, and F9 would need to significantly change their onboard model to make a long-haul flight on them passable. It would be like two different Frontiers. I can see them using this extra range for DEN-Hawaii, but I don't see how people can survive their current onboard product that long.


Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

With ETOPS fuel no way, DEN-LGW 4,600 miles. Won’t be qualified to fly that route.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=den-lgw


It is me or your posts are confusing statute miles and nautical miles ?

To my knowledge den to lhr is only 4082 nautical miles

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:49 am
by Acey
TWA772LR wrote:
How about western US to Caribbean?

SEA-POS is 3,768 nm; pretty much the longest route that could be described as "western US to Caribbean", and also one nobody will likely ever fly. Anything else is shorter and subject pretty much only to runway length constraints.

These are sectors coming up on 9 hours westbound against the wind. In an A321. What a time to be alive.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:01 am
by ethernal
Olddog wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
ctrabs0114 wrote:

Wouldn't DEN-HNL on an XLR suffer the same issues that a hypothetical XLR flight from DEN-LGW due to the altitude and weather at DEN?

With ETOPS fuel no way, DEN-LGW 4,600 miles. Won’t be qualified to fly that route.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=den-lgw


It is me or your posts are confusing statute miles and nautical miles ?

To my knowledge den to lhr is only 4082 nautical miles


It would obviously depend on the config (a tight all-Y config would have issues.. but god I hope it isn't tight all-Y), but even with high and hot Denver they a standard XLR config could make it Eastbound without too much of an issue due to the tailwinds. Westbound is the challenge, but there would be no high and hot (more like "low and dreary" ;)) issues there.

Re: F9 Could Use A321XLR Order for Transatlantic

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:12 am
by TWA772LR
Acey wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
How about western US to Caribbean?

SEA-POS is 3,768 nm; pretty much the longest route that could be described as "western US to Caribbean", and also one nobody will likely ever fly. Anything else is shorter and subject pretty much only to runway length constraints.

These are sectors coming up on 9 hours westbound against the wind. In an A321. What a time to be alive.

I was thinking more like DEN to DR and the like.