User avatar
SEPilot
Topic Author
Posts: 5427
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:30 am

It occurred to me that the 767 has been in continuous production since 1982, and has not received a major upgrade as in a new model designation in all that time. And seeing as it is still selling as a freighter it does not look like its run is going to end any time soon. It seems to be the most popular choice to replace DC-10 and even some MD-11 freighters as they are retired. The A330 has pretty much pushed it out of passenger service, but it has has fallen flat as a freighter. It is also being produced for the military as the new tanker, and while I do not count that as being relevant to its civilian life it will likely have an effect in making continued support after civilian production ceases available for a longer time. Thoughts?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3143
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:01 am

Lets see:
767-200 to 767-200ER
767-300 to 767-300ER
767-400
The ER's had major changes to meet specs & the 400 was the lat model. That makes 4 major upgrades of the models.
 
Scanorama
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 4:04 pm

Re: Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:06 am

B767-400ER was quite a major upgrade from the B767-300ER which itself was a major upgrade from B767-200.
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:15 am

I don’t agree the 330 pushed it out of passenger service. First of all it’s still in passsenger service. Age more than anything has reduced its numbers in passenger service. It’s also being used as a freighter quite extensively so it certainly hasn’t fallen flat.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2813
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:10 am

SEPilot wrote:
It occurred to me that the 767 has been in continuous production since 1982, and has not received a major upgrade as in a new model designation in all that time. And seeing as it is still selling as a freighter it does not look like its run is going to end any time soon. It seems to be the most popular choice to replace DC-10 and even some MD-11 freighters as they are retired.


If it wasn't for the 767 tanker/KC-46 (a rather large upgrade), would the 767 still be in production? It's a pretty safe bet that Boeing kept the 767 line alive and running with low bids to UPS and DHL in order to stay in the running for the USAF tanker program, something that would have been necessary to net them the potential 500+ tanker orders.


SEPilot wrote:
The A330 has pretty much pushed it out of passenger service,


What rock do you live under? Excepting the US, it's the 767 that is pretty much gone from passenger service worldwide, not the A330!


SEPilot wrote:
but it has has fallen flat as a freighter. It is also being produced for the military as the new tanker, and while I do not count that as being relevant to its civilian life it will likely have an effect in making continued support after civilian production ceases available for a longer time. Thoughts?


Let's not forget that the new-build freighter market is tiny. Much of A-net has an obsession with total numbers of aircraft sold, but ignoring how many customers are involved. The 767s "success" as a new-build freighter really comes down to only 2 customers: UPS and FedEx. Of those two, UPS already had a large fleet of 767s prior to the A330F being offered, so in reality, it was all decided by just FedEx.
It is also my opinion that it is way too early to claim that the A330 freighter is a flop. Most 767 freighters are conversions, and sooner or later (probably sooner), good and cheap 767 feedstock will run out, while A330s are going to drop in value as they eventually age and get phased out of passenger service.

IMHO, in 10 years the entire discussion about freighters could be completely reversed. Cheap A330s and A321s will start hitting the market in numbers that will push more conversions of those types. Amazon and UPS have been pushing for an A330-900 freighter, a 100 plane order from those two would also flip the tables completely.
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:35 pm

Because of the -300F and -400, I would think the "time without a major upgrade" title belongs to the A320-200 CEO instead (excluding the A321 CEO of course).
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
1989worstyear
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:38 pm

VSMUT wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
It occurred to me that the 767 has been in continuous production since 1982, and has not received a major upgrade as in a new model designation in all that time. And seeing as it is still selling as a freighter it does not look like its run is going to end any time soon. It seems to be the most popular choice to replace DC-10 and even some MD-11 freighters as they are retired.


If it wasn't for the 767 tanker/KC-46 (a rather large upgrade), would the 767 still be in production? It's a pretty safe bet that Boeing kept the 767 line alive and running with low bids to UPS and DHL in order to stay in the running for the USAF tanker program, something that would have been necessary to net them the potential 500+ tanker orders.


SEPilot wrote:
The A330 has pretty much pushed it out of passenger service,


What rock do you live under? Excepting the US, it's the 767 that is pretty much gone from passenger service worldwide, not the A330!


SEPilot wrote:
but it has has fallen flat as a freighter. It is also being produced for the military as the new tanker, and while I do not count that as being relevant to its civilian life it will likely have an effect in making continued support after civilian production ceases available for a longer time. Thoughts?


Let's not forget that the new-build freighter market is tiny. Much of A-net has an obsession with total numbers of aircraft sold, but ignoring how many customers are involved. The 767s "success" as a new-build freighter really comes down to only 2 customers: UPS and FedEx. Of those two, UPS already had a large fleet of 767s prior to the A330F being offered, so in reality, it was all decided by just FedEx.
It is also my opinion that it is way too early to claim that the A330 freighter is a flop. Most 767 freighters are conversions, and sooner or later (probably sooner), good and cheap 767 feedstock will run out, while A330s are going to drop in value as they eventually age and get phased out of passenger service.

IMHO, in 10 years the entire discussion about freighters could be completely reversed. Cheap A330s and A321s will start hitting the market in numbers that will push more conversions of those types. Amazon and UPS have been pushing for an A330-900 freighter, a 100 plane order from those two would also flip the tables completely.


I don't think he was implying that the A330 is disappearing from pax service, but let's keep in mind we're talking about a 1994 airplane in 2019.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Topic Author
Posts: 5427
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

Re: Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:48 pm

VSMUT wrote:
SEPilot wrote:
It occurred to me that the 767 has been in continuous production since 1982, and has not received a major upgrade as in a new model designation in all that time. And seeing as it is still selling as a freighter it does not look like its run is going to end any time soon. It seems to be the most popular choice to replace DC-10 and even some MD-11 freighters as they are retired.


If it wasn't for the 767 tanker/KC-46 (a rather large upgrade), would the 767 still be in production? It's a pretty safe bet that Boeing kept the 767 line alive and running with low bids to UPS and DHL in order to stay in the running for the USAF tanker program, something that would have been necessary to net them the potential 500+ tanker orders.


SEPilot wrote:
The A330 has pretty much pushed it out of passenger service,


What rock do you live under? Excepting the US, it's the 767 that is pretty much gone from passenger service worldwide, not the A330!

.

I am living under the rock where the A330 has largely pushed the 767 out of passenger service. It might help if you read what I said.

As to the future, anything can happen. But as to the present the A330 has been a complete flop as a freighter, both as a new build and as a conversion. As you point out, that may change. But there is no indication when or if that will happen at this point. Meanwhile the 767F is still in production, and there is at present no sign that it will cease. Of course it does have the advantage that once present orders are filled there will be ongoing tanker orders to keep the line going, so it can continue to be offered without continuous orders.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Topic Author
Posts: 5427
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

Re: Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:52 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Lets see:
767-200 to 767-200ER
767-300 to 767-300ER
767-400
The ER's had major changes to meet specs & the 400 was the lat model. That makes 4 major upgrades of the models.

Yes, they are improvements, but not major upgrades requiring a complete new type designation like going from the 737-300 to 737-700 or 747-400 to 747-800. That was my point. The wings, engines, and major systems are still essentially what they were, albeit with improvements, as they were in 1982.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
LDRA
Posts: 272
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:01 am

Re: Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:06 pm

Since 767 is still being produced, are there revisions to avionic boxes? I am pretty sure all the old processors on original 767 are no longer available
 
Max Q
Posts: 7549
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

Re: Boeing 767-longest running commercial airliner without a major upgrade?

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:19 pm

SEPilot wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Lets see:
767-200 to 767-200ER
767-300 to 767-300ER
767-400
The ER's had major changes to meet specs & the 400 was the lat model. That makes 4 major upgrades of the models.

Yes, they are improvements, but not major upgrades requiring a complete new type designation like going from the 737-300 to 737-700 or 747-400 to 747-800. That was my point. The wings, engines, and major systems are still essentially what they were, albeit with improvements, as they were in 1982.



You have a valid point, the 737, 747 and 777 have all had major upgrades over the years but other than the 764 there’s been
no ‘NG’ 767 or 757 for that matter
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


Guns and the love of them by a loud minority are a malignant and deadly cancer inflicted on American society

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: IAHWorldflyer and 26 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos