VV
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Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:19 am

The question is asked in the title.

Branching from A220 delivery and production thread.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411871

In my opinion it is not going to happen, but other people are persuaded it would.
Last edited by VV on Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:23 am

VV wrote:
The question is asked in the title.

Branching from A220 delivery and production thread.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411871


Is there any reason to believe it won't?
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Amiga500
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:24 am

Currently no... because no one has requested it.

But that is not the same question as "is there any reason to believe A220-300 (CS300) can not operate at London City Airport (LCY)?


If it happened, it'd never be dedicated operations - it would be something like a once a day flight to LCY with the airframe being used at capacity for all other sectors to all other airports.
 
bgm
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:24 am

Only if it has containerized luggage...
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skipness1E
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:37 am

There’s no room until they’ve finished the current apron expansion, the smaller CS100 is tricky enough as it is.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:46 am

skipness1E wrote:
There’s no room until they’ve finished the current apron expansion, the smaller CS100 is tricky enough as it is.


is lenght the problem? Because the A318 can operate from there.... admittedly a major headache.

Isn´t the A220-100 LCY certified because Swiss wants to fly it there?

best regards
Thomas
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SteelChair
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:58 am

The existing operator of the CS100 at LCY is Swiss. Do thse flights run full? Is there market demand for more seats?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:36 pm

As per the last thread, Swiss must block some seats in the A220-100 due to anticipated wet runway/winds. If weather is good, they open the aircraft to full sales.

Discussion in the prior thread estimated that as currently delivered, the A229-300 would be limited to 88 passengers for landing in wet/stormy weather due to longer breaking distances in such weather.

We then discussed how simple a breaking PIP would be increasing the allowed landing weight by a few tons (I estimate 3 or 4).

What wasn't discussed is how much weight the aircraft could lose via PIPs. Vi estimate about 1 ton, so enough to really help the A220-100, but not huge for the A220-300.

For AirBaltic, I could see a few A220-300 flights due to the fare premium. But only if the every day allowed is 110+. I see that as plausible.

Variations of this link were posted:
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/busine ... 90795.html

A director at London City Airport has said it hopes to certify the passenger plane A220-300, the wings of which are made in east Belfast by Bombardier, for flights using the airport.

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wrongwayup
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:50 pm

There's no doubt that any airline flying to LCY would be interested in more capacity at some point. Also no doubt that there is a technical solution to getting an A220-300 into LCY (engineers are really good at this kind of stuff when provided appropriate amounts of time and money).

The question is will the premium the airline(s) is(/are) willing to pay for said capacity be worth the cost of developing the solution be worth more than say, Airbus just delivering incremental A220-100s. If you could get the development & cert costs to get the -300 LCY-certified down into the order of magnitude of ~$10M or so, I think it's reasonable to assume there's an airline willing to pay say $1M more per aircraft for more than 10 aircraft to make it happen.

But the business case isn't a slam dunk, and there's enough uncertainty in the numbers, that I think you'll see Airbus waiting for a launch customer committing up front to the program rather than see them doing it on spec.
 
DeltaB717
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:35 pm

Is the 88 pax limit that was discussed in the production/delivery thread based on a flight from LCY to the continent, or based on longer flights such as trans-Atlantic?

I mentioned in the other thread, in response to a couple of points made by VV, that, for all we know, the same discussions and debates were had about the E190 before it was eventually certified for LCY. That aircraft, too, did not naturally lend itself to LCY operations until Embraer produced a specialised variant. As lightsaber points out, there are likely several things that can be done to make the -300 capable of useful operations at LCY, if (yes IF) an operator such as Swiss or Air Baltic wanted that.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:42 am

There was a planned airline from a few years ago called Odyssey that planned to operate transatlantic flights using the C-Series to LCY. What happened to them? They seemed to have disappeared.
 
StTim
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:55 am

This thread was created by VV as the discussion was polluting the production thread.

I thus find it odd that it has been moved to the wasteland of this board.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:00 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
Is the 88 pax limit that was discussed in the production/delivery thread based on a flight from LCY to the continent, or based on longer flights such as trans-Atlantic?.


that limit is for landing.

best regards
Thomas
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DeltaB717
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:30 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
Is the 88 pax limit that was discussed in the production/delivery thread based on a flight from LCY to the continent, or based on longer flights such as trans-Atlantic?.


that limit is for landing.

best regards
Thomas


Of course it is, my mistake. Thanks :)
 
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mfranjic
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Re: Is There Any Reason To Believe A220-300 (CS300) Will Operate At London City Airport (LCY)?

Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:37 pm

……
In March 2017 Bombardier Aviation conducted steep 5,5˚ approach landings tests at London City Airport ( LCY ), making it the largest airplane to land there. Bombardier Aviation announced that the Bombardier.C Series CS100 ( BD-500-1A10 ) received Transport Canada and EASA steep approach certification in April 2017. SWISS’ aircraft C Series CS100; MSN 50010, reg. HB-JBA, test reg. C-FPAI, with the cabin configuration CY125 and powered by two Image.PW1524G, ‘2,5’-shaft, high-bypass, geared, turbofan engine (fan diameter: 1.854,2 mm / 73,0 in; BPR: 12,0:1; gear ratio: 3,0625:1; eng. architecture: 1F-]G[-3LPC–8HPC2HPT–3LPT), OPR: 50,0:1, each rated at 108,54 kN / 11.068 kgf / 24.400 lbf, completed its first revenue flight to London City Airport on 08. Aug. 2017 from Zurich, replacing the British Aerospace.AVRO 146-RJ100, short-haul regional airliner, in CY97 cabin configuration, powered by four Lycoming LF 507/1F, ’2,5’-shaft, high-bypass, geared, turbofan engine (fan diameter: 1.022,3 mm / 40,25 in; BPR: 5,7:1; gear ratio: 2,3:1; eng. architecture: 1F-]G[-2LPC–(7+1r)HPC2HPT–2LPT), OPR: 13,8:1, each rated at 31,14 kN / 3.175 kgf / 7.000 lbf. The last flight of the SWISSAVRO 146-RJ100 aircraft to LCY happened on 14. Aug. 2017.
…...
Image
……
A director of the London City Airport said he hopes the airport will also get certified over the next few years with the passenger plane of the type Image.A220-300, the wings of which are made in east Belfast by Bombardier, for flights using the airport. The east London airport already uses the smaller Airbus A220-100, originally developed by Bombardier Aviation as the C Series, for Swiss International Airlines’ (SWISS) flights to Zurich and Geneva.
……
Image
……
The steep approach of the LCY airport and 1.319 m / 4.327 ft LDA (Landing Distance Available) represents a serious challenge for the air-traffic operations, but at least as much as its short runway, the limiting factors are obstacle clearance and a downwind take-offs. The winds are generally from the east, favoring RWY 09 which has some restrictive obstacles, but the downwind on the RWY 27 is just favorable. Otherwise, the usable T/O distance for 27 is 1.385 m, longer than that of RWY 09 due to shorter starter extension on 09.
……
With just one, but only partial, exception, LCY is the airport with the shortest runway in the SWISS’ network. Namely, Lugano Airport ( LUG ) declares a slightly shorter LDA, but a substantially longer TORA, TODA and ASDA for RWY.01/19. However, the very steep approach (IGS RWY 01 approach 6,65°) has so far made it inappropriate to send the Airbus A220s there, so the route is served with the Austrian AirlinesDe Havilland Canada.DHC-8-402Q Dash 8 aircraft in Y76 cabin configuration.
……
According to SWISS, LCY is not the shortest runway they have operated into with their Image.A220 aircraft; it may be a secondary runway 07/25 with 1.310 m / 4.298 ft of length at ORK airport (the second-largest of the three principal international airports in the Republic of Ireland, after DUB and ahead of SNN). I am not quite sure if the SWISS was using mentioned runway for their operation at ORK, but in any case they do operate their A220-300s on the flights LX2560 / LX2561 using 2.133 m / 6.998 ft long ORK’s RWY 16/34...
……
London City Airport (LCY / EGLC), an international airport in London, England, located in the Royal Docks in the London Borough of Newham, is one of the easiest and most accessible airports in London, owing to its location of just 9,5 km / 6 mi east of City of London and 4,8 km / 3 mi from Canary Wharf, two centres of London’s financial industry and a major users of the airport. It is well-connected to the London Underground (‘The Tube’) network and it has its own stop on the Docklands Light Railway (DLR), which takes you to ‘The Tube’ interchange stations such as Canning Town, Stratford and Bank.
……
Recognised as the most punctual airport in the UK, London City Airport ( LCY ) has received consent to extend its aviation capacity under a £344 m ($451 m) expansion programme. The expansion will increase the annual flight movements to 111.000 a year, from the current capacity of 70.000.
The expansion programme, to be completed by 2023, will provide LCY with additional short-haul aviation capacity, while doubling its economic impact to £1,5 bn per annum. It will also generate 1.600 new jobs and 500 construction jobs while delivering a world-class international gateway to London.
The proposed airport development plan emphasises on maximising the use of the existing infrastructure. It aims to achieve the permitted flight movement without constructing a new runway or upgrading the existing runway.
The expansion covers an area of 60,1 ha and includes major extension to the existing terminal, including the construction of a new passenger pier. Airfield improvements include the construction of seven aircraft parking stands and taxi lane extension. A new dockside design will constitute a multi-modal entrance forecourt in front of the terminal building, a hotel and parking facilities.
Seven new aircraft parking stands will be built towards the east of the existing parking stands whereas four current stands will be upgraded. To enable their construction, the current passenger pier will be extended towards east.
A parallel taxiway along the runway will also be extended to allow aircraft to land-on and take-off from the runway quickly. A landside pontoon will also be constructed at the eastern end of the new parking stands for the emergency services.

...Image
...A satellite view of the London City Airport (click on the image for a larger view)

Image
West India Docks during the London 2012 Summer Olympics (click on the image for a larger view)

...The main concern related to eventual Airbus A220-300’s operations at LCY is related to the braking on a wet runway during the landing, but it would be an interesting and probably not even too much demanding task for the engineers to upgrade the braking system of the aircraft according to the specific needs and certify the aircraft for the steep approach and short-field landing at LCY airport with a useful load. Winning the IAG’s order alone would be sufficient to pay the costs for the certification, including the new break system.
...As far as the engines are concerned, the Image.A220 aircraft still have an certified engine of a higher thrust on the disposition, and this is PW1525G, with the same sea-level static thrust rating to that of the Image.PW1524G engine rated at 108,54 kN / 11.068 kgf / 24.400 lbf, but 5 % increased trough the thrust bump to 113,96 kN / 11.621 kgf / 25.620 lbf in non-static conditions, at speeds over M 0,1 / 66,7 kts / 123 kmph at sea level airfields.

...Image

...Before the SWISS have started the operations to LCY with their Image.A220-100s ( C Series CS100 ), the largest aircraft certified for the operation on LCY airport was British AirwaysImage.Airbus A318, powered by two Image.CFM56-5B9/P, twin-shaft, high-bypass, turbofan engines (fan diameter: 1.734,8 mm / 68,3 in; BPR: 5,9:1; engine architecture: 1F+4LPC–9HPC1HPT–4LPT), OPR: 32,6:1, rated at 103,64 kN / 10.568 kgf / 23.300 lbf. In March 2006, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) certified a modified control software enhancement to the Airbus A318, designed to allow the aircraft to perform steep approaches. The aircraft is the largest commercial aircraft certified by EASA for the steep approach operations. In 1992 LCY had the runway extended to 1.508 m / 4.948 ft, which does allow the A318 to operate successfully from the airport. The software modifies the control laws of the aircraft when the steep approach function is selected by the crew, by automatically deploying some of the spoiler panels to provide additional drag when the aircraft is in the landing configuration. It also provides alternative aural alerts to the crew and modifies spoiler deployment automatically below 37 m / 120 ft on landing. The A318 steep approach procedure allows the aircraft to perform approaches at descent angles of up to 5,5°, as opposed to the standard 3° for a normal approach.

...A test flight was conducted in May 2006 to prove the aircraft’s steep approach and short-field runway performance by landing at London City Airport, where such steep approaches are required. The test flight also confirmed the aircraft’s compatibility with the limited manoeuvring and parking space at that airport. Subsequently, in August 2009 Airbus delivered the first Airbus A318 with steep approach capability to British Airways, which began operating the route the following month, eventually having two ( G-EUNA and G-EUNB ) such aircraft capable for the flights between London City Airport and John F. Kennedy International Airport ( JFK ) in New York. On the westbound leg from London, a stopover is necessary for the refueling, which occurs at Shannon Airport ( SNN ), Ireland, because the weight restrictions are necessary in order to take off within the existing short runway length of the London City Airport. On the eastbound leg from New York this limitation is not present and the aircraft can take all the fuel needed for the transatlantic route to London. As of November 2017, only one (reg. G-EUNA) aircraft was serving the route, operated in a C32, all-business-class configuration…

Image

Airbus A220-300 in London City Airport? I don’t see why not ...

Mario
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