SEU
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The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:17 pm

I wanted to create a separate thread to debate the future of Boeing. People have been debating this in the middle of the other threads and I think its a very interesting topic for debate and requires another thread.

Personally I feel the Boeing could actually go under and a new company comes out of it. Maybe Lockheed Martin takes over. I just think the damage is irreversible.

So can Boeing go under?
Will they focus on a 737 replacement straight away and can they afford to?
Will the MAX actually fly again (dont disregard this question, there is a possibility of it)?
How many more bad practises will come out?

Debate away!
 
Amiga500
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:23 pm

Nope.

Boeing definitely won't go under before there is a competitive commercial (aircraft) airframer in a low-cost country. Such as COMAC delivering something leading edge in both narrow and wide body markets*. Even after that milestone is reached, it does not mean there is impending doom for BCA.

*So that is not the C919 - its not competitive. It may start with the C929 (or whatever the widebody is called) and would need to be followed with a C939 (or whatever replaces C919).
 
SWADawg
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:23 pm

Simple Answer. No. The Boeing Company isn’t going anywhere. This MAX issue will blow over eventually and the world will continue to turn.
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American 767
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:23 pm

Boeing will always exist as Boeing, at least in the world of widebodies, because Boeing is a well known name in the aviation industry and it has gained a significant market share in the sales of commercial aircraft over the years and the decades, if you exclude Airbus.
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keesje
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:38 pm

Washington would strategically intervene. https://www.boeing.com/defense/#/products-services

I expect more support from the Trump government over the next few years anyway. America First.

Boeing is the US' biggest exporter, the US government is their biggest customer, supporter, R&D sponsor.

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Last edited by keesje on Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SEU
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:42 pm

keesje wrote:
Washington would strategically intervene. https://www.boeing.com/defense/#/products-services

I expect more support from the Trump government over the next few years anyway. America First.

Boeing is the US' biggest exporter, the US government is their biggest customer, supporter, R&D sponsor.


That link puts into perspective how many products the government buys from Boeing that the average person doesnt see - probably why I think they are in more trouble than a lot of people seem to think.
 
musman9853
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:43 pm

Boeing has like 8 billion in cash. There's no way they go under
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MIflyer12
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:44 pm

SEU wrote:
Personally I feel the Boeing could actually go under...


You desperately - desperately - need a course in financial and U.S. military procurement realities. Look at the market capitalization of Boeing. (Risk is already priced in.) Look at the cash on hand. Look at the backlog of military contracts. Look at the service revenues of the base of the many thousands of 737s, 787s, 777s, 757s and 767s flying. The Boeing Company will outlive all of us.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:45 pm

Boeing isn't going anywhere.

The 737 MAX fiasco will eventually be resolved and many more frames of the type will be delivered. The issue may trigger a comeback of NSA that was shelved when it was decided to rush 737 re-engine project instead of a clean-sheet narrowbody. We'll see.
787 is fine and already a cash cow.
777X will be fine as well.
If anything, NMA a.k.a. "797" EIS will be delayed by 2 - 5 years.

And... don't forget about the defense and space part of its business.
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exFWAOONW
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:11 pm

Short term, yeah, it ain’t pretty. Long term, they will “sacrifice” a head or two to appease, and things will get back on track. BTW commercial aircraft is only one part of Boeing, the military and space divisions should be unfazed by all this.
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JayinKitsap
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:10 pm

With the incessant bashing of Boeing on a.net it must be ready to crater and declare bankruptcy at any time now.

I thought this was a forum on aviation not a sports betting site. Who is going to win the world cup type of stuff.

If the airlines thought there was any risk of the ordered planes not being delivered, there would be a huge rush of orders for Airbus.

But the orders this year show a typical year balance. Prior to PAS this year, both were almost at zero due to EY and Jet's problems.
 
SteelChair
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:49 pm

While I completely understand the reasons why Boeing is too big to fail, l feel that it is unfortunate thay they are too big to fail.

They are far too insulated from market realities and from the realities of their gigantic mistakes imho. They are a quasi government institution, not unlike when PanAm was considered an unofficial arm of the State Department. Like all those on government assistance, their dependence makes them weak. At a minimum, their stock should be under significant pressure right now, but it is not, alas cronyism in the boardrooms.

And oh BTW, I'm all for America first, but the taxpayers shouldnt be forced to subsidize ineptitude.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:09 pm

SteelChair wrote:
While I completely understand the reasons why Boeing is too big to fail, l feel that it is unfortunate thay they are too big to fail.

They are far too insulated from market realities and from the realities of their gigantic mistakes imho. They are a quasi government institution, not unlike when PanAm was considered an unofficial arm of the State Department. Like all those on government assistance, their dependence makes them weak. At a minimum, their stock should be under significant pressure right now, but it is not, alas cronyism in the boardrooms.

And oh BTW, I'm all for America first, but the taxpayers shouldnt be forced to subsidize ineptitude.


Agree on the ineptitude part. While I’ve often defended Boeing on A.net, I’m also disgusted with how poorly it’s been managed for the past 25 years. Decisions are made at all levels for someone’s personal agenda, not for the good of the company.

Ironically, I think Dennis is the best leader the company has had in a long time. He in fact has implemented a series of Boeing Behaviors that will reward you for making decisions that benefit the overall company, not your own budget and agenda.

All Jim McSlimeball and Harry cared about was lining their own pockets in the back last of the employees. Phil meant well but was unstable and incompetent in many ways.

MCAS was a terrible tragic blunder, but I’m not surprised it came to this given the bad leadership for so long.

However, the recently announced additional problem that is further delaying MAX return to service is pretty unfair. I won’t post the details on line, but basically it stemmed from one FAA pilot just deciding to make up a rule that doesn’t exist. Boeing elected not to fight it, although it’s BS. That supposed failure mode is no different from the NG.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SteelChair
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:15 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
While I completely understand the reasons why Boeing is too big to fail, l feel that it is unfortunate thay they are too big to fail.

They are far too insulated from market realities and from the realities of their gigantic mistakes imho. They are a quasi government institution, not unlike when PanAm was considered an unofficial arm of the State Department. Like all those on government assistance, their dependence makes them weak. At a minimum, their stock should be under significant pressure right now, but it is not, alas cronyism in the boardrooms.

And oh BTW, I'm all for America first, but the taxpayers shouldnt be forced to subsidize ineptitude.


However, the recently announced additional problem that is further delaying MAX return to service is pretty unfair. I won’t post the details on line, but basically it stemmed from one FAA pilot just deciding to make up a rule that doesn’t exist. Boeing elected not to fight it, although it’s BS. That supposed failure mode is no different from the NG.


Thats one of the priblens with getting this far down the road of ineptitude. You can't afford even the appearance of a problem. Perception is reality, and one clown can hold up the whole show.
 
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:32 pm

SteelChair wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
While I completely understand the reasons why Boeing is too big to fail, l feel that it is unfortunate thay they are too big to fail.

They are far too insulated from market realities and from the realities of their gigantic mistakes imho. They are a quasi government institution, not unlike when PanAm was considered an unofficial arm of the State Department. Like all those on government assistance, their dependence makes them weak. At a minimum, their stock should be under significant pressure right now, but it is not, alas cronyism in the boardrooms.

And oh BTW, I'm all for America first, but the taxpayers shouldnt be forced to subsidize ineptitude.


However, the recently announced additional problem that is further delaying MAX return to service is pretty unfair. I won’t post the details on line, but basically it stemmed from one FAA pilot just deciding to make up a rule that doesn’t exist. Boeing elected not to fight it, although it’s BS. That supposed failure mode is no different from the NG.


Thats one of the priblens with getting this far down the road of ineptitude. You can't afford even the appearance of a problem. Perception is reality, and one clown can hold up the whole show.


Back in the mid-1990s when Boeing tried to implement DCAC/MRM you had the Deputy President of BCA, Tom Schick, telling people, “It doesn’t matter if it works. It doesn’t matter if it benefits the company. Just get it done on time and you’ll get your bonus.”

Then when Boeing sold off Flight Training to FSI in 1997, the customers were furious, Airbus was laughing their guts out, training quality went way down, and everyone knew it was a terrible business decision. Yet Boeing leaders were blatantly lying to the press saying how happy the customers are, Airbus congratulated us, etc.

They also lied about some production problems.

Even back then, I knew the company was in trouble with this type of unethical and inept leadership.

Boeing has succeeded and put out great products like the 777-300ER and 787 (after a lot of management caused problems) in spite of inept unethical leadership because there were always many good employees who do the right thing
 
Max Q
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:22 am

SteelChair wrote:
While I completely understand the reasons why Boeing is too big to fail, l feel that it is unfortunate thay they are too big to fail.

They are far too insulated from market realities and from the realities of their gigantic mistakes imho. They are a quasi government institution, not unlike when PanAm was considered an unofficial arm of the State Department. Like all those on government assistance, their dependence makes them weak. At a minimum, their stock should be under significant pressure right now, but it is not, alas cronyism in the boardrooms.

And oh BTW, I'm all for America first, but the taxpayers shouldnt be forced to subsidize ineptitude.



America first, not chump first
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acjbbj
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:09 am

Jesus Christ, some of you are like toilet plungers, bringing up old $hit...

SEU wrote:
IPersonally I feel the Boeing could actually go under... So can Boeing go under?

Absolutely. All of you are being like "BoEiNg ArE tOo BiG tO fAiL reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" but what you clearly don't know or are refusing to admit is the mere fact that, surprise surprise:

There is NO such thing as "too big to fail!"
JUST ADMIT IT!


SEU wrote:
...and a new company comes out of it. Maybe Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics take over (acquire Boeing's entire commercial division plus their name and font). I just think the damage is irreversible.

Irreversible? 100% correct. Biggest lawsuit ever? Probably. Biggest bankruptcy ever, surpassing Lehman Brothers? There's a chance.

When Boeing's commercial division gets sold to Lockheed Martin then I hope Boeing's website will say something like "UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT"

Would like to see Boeing's military division become the new McDonnell-Douglas. Have half of the commercial airplane employees come over to the new MDC and help them start work on a New Mid-size Airplane in order to get them back into commercial aviation.

SEU wrote:
Will they focus on a 737 replacement straight away and can they afford to?
Will the MAX actually fly again (dont disregard this question, there is a possibility of it)?

The Max will fly again, as long as Lockheed straightens out Boeing and helps give the 737 Max a HARDWARE FIX (four angle of attack sensors, and reading data from all four at once. Something like this would probably be a must-have) BEFORE a software fix (re-doing MCAS from scratch may be necessary)

SEU wrote:
How many more bad practises will come out?

They will probably keep coming out until an brand refresh is done.
Last edited by acjbbj on Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
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BoeingGuy
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:31 am

acjbbj wrote:
Jesus Christ, some of you are like toilet plungers, bringing up old $hit...

SEU wrote:
IPersonally I feel the Boeing could actually go under... So can Boeing go under?

Absolutely. All of you are being like "BoEiNg ArE tOo BiG tO fAiL REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" but what you clearly don't know or are refusing to admit is the mere fact that, surprise surprise:

There is no such thing as too big to fail!
Admit it! Be realistic, for once!


SEU wrote:
...and a new company comes out of it. Maybe Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics take over (acquire Boeing's entire commercial division plus their name and font). I just think the damage is irreversible.

Irreversible? 100% correct. Biggest lawsuit ever? Probably. Biggest bankruptcy ever, surpassing Lehman Brothers? There's a chance.

When Boeing's commercial division gets sold to Lockheed Martin then I hope Boeing's website will say something like "UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT"

Would like to see Boeing's military division become the new McDonnell-Douglas. Have half of the commercial airplane employees come over to the new MDC and help them start work on a New Mid-size Airplane in order to get them back into commercial aviation.

SEU wrote:
Will they focus on a 737 replacement straight away and can they afford to?
Will the MAX actually fly again (dont disregard this question, there is a possibility of it)?

The Max will fly again, as long as Lockheed straightens out Boeing and helps give the 737 Max a HARDWARE FIX (four angle of attack sensors, and reading data from all four at once. Something like this would probably be a must-have) BEFORE a software fix (re-doing MCAS from scratch may be necessary)

SEU wrote:
How many more bad practises will come out?

They will probably keep coming out until an brand refresh is done.


You say we are toilet plungers, yet you say almost nothing of any substance in your long post. I still don’t get what your point is.
 
acjbbj
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:34 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
You say we are toilet plungers, yet you say almost nothing of any substance in your long post. I still don’t get what your point is.

My point is this: There is no such thing as "Too big to fail", and Boeing have every chance of going under. The only way (or at least one of the few ways) for the General Public to regain confidence in Boeing is for a brand rehash with new management or whatever. The damage is irreversible at least under the current management (or whoever decided that skimping out on the Max with the "cutting corners" was even remotely a good idea).
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BoeingGuy
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:39 am

acjbbj wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
You say we are toilet plungers, yet you say almost nothing of any substance in your long post. I still don’t get what your point is.

My point is this: There is no such thing as "Too big to fail", and Boeing have every chance of going under. The only way (or at least one of the few ways) for the General Public to regain confidence in Boeing is for a brand rehash with new management or whatever. The damage is irreversible at least under the current management (or whoever decided that skimping out on the Max with the "cutting corners" was even remotely a good idea).


Boeing will be feeling the negative effects of Jim McNerney for a long time, while he is getting his 3.6 Million a year pension. He has done incredible damage.
 
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:51 am

I doubt that Boeing is going to go under anytime in the forseeable future. BCA will probably go under when something other than aircraft replaces aircraft (whatever that may be...I can't even imagine). However, I very much hope that there is some serious soul-searching going on there with respect to corporate values.

Between the MAX and now the criminal probe at the CHS plant, it's time for the people at Boeing to re-evaluate their corporate identity and culture.
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acjbbj
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:52 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
You say we are toilet plungers, yet you say almost nothing of any substance in your long post. I still don’t get what your point is.

My point is this: There is no such thing as "Too big to fail", and Boeing have every chance of going under. The only way (or at least one of the few ways) for the General Public to regain confidence in Boeing is for a brand rehash with new management or whatever. The damage is irreversible at least under the current management (or whoever decided that skimping out on the Max with the "cutting corners" was even remotely a good idea).


Boeing will be feeling the negative effects of Jim McNerney for a long time, while he is getting his 3.6 Million a year pension. He has done incredible damage.

Boeing deserves a lawsuit of at least $5 trillion. Yeah, put them in that much debt, let them go bust, let them be the biggest bankruptcy in the world, let a reputable company buy/reform BCA.

This is what happens when there are only two companies in an industry. Lack of innovation, lack of variety, and (IMO) outright laziness. And people are somehow okay with it.

At least MD-11's will be flying cargo for quite some time (and that at least one gets put up for display); really hoped A340's would be converted as well but seems like the A340's economics just don't work well for cargo...

This is something that (again, IMO) should also concern the risks of pushing automation.

And on a separate note: If the aviation industry really did the right thing by putting safety ahead of profits, we probably wouldn't see a move towards everything being two engines.
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WPvsMW
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:12 am

BCA could very well enter Chapter 11 BK (reorg).... just as airlines did after 9/11... if liabilities far exceed assets. $8 billion is cash is not infinite, esp. considering claims from airlines that have large MAX fleets grounded. No effect on the DOD and space divisions of Boeing.
 
SteelChair
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:56 pm

Max Q wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
While I completely understand the reasons why Boeing is too big to fail, l feel that it is unfortunate thay they are too big to fail.

They are far too insulated from market realities and from the realities of their gigantic mistakes imho. They are a quasi government institution, not unlike when PanAm was considered an unofficial arm of the State Department. Like all those on government assistance, their dependence makes them weak. At a minimum, their stock should be under significant pressure right now, but it is not, alas cronyism in the boardrooms.

And oh BTW, I'm all for America first, but the taxpayers shouldnt be forced to subsidize ineptitude.



America first, not chump first


What does that mean?
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:56 pm

acjbbj wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
My point is this: There is no such thing as "Too big to fail", and Boeing have every chance of going under. The only way (or at least one of the few ways) for the General Public to regain confidence in Boeing is for a brand rehash with new management or whatever. The damage is irreversible at least under the current management (or whoever decided that skimping out on the Max with the "cutting corners" was even remotely a good idea).


Boeing will be feeling the negative effects of Jim McNerney for a long time, while he is getting his 3.6 Million a year pension. He has done incredible damage.

Boeing deserves a lawsuit of at least $5 trillion. Yeah, put them in that much debt, let them go bust, let them be the biggest bankruptcy in the world, let a reputable company buy/reform BCA.

This is what happens when there are only two companies in an industry. Lack of innovation, lack of variety, and (IMO) outright laziness. And people are somehow okay with it.

At least MD-11's will be flying cargo for quite some time (and that at least one gets put up for display); really hoped A340's would be converted as well but seems like the A340's economics just don't work well for cargo...

This is something that (again, IMO) should also concern the risks of pushing automation.

And on a separate note: If the aviation industry really did the right thing by putting safety ahead of profits, we probably wouldn't see a move towards everything being two engines.


The problem is the innocent employees, who actually did try to do the right things, will be the ones who suffer. The executives who created these problems will continue to live in luxury with their riches.

That’s kind of already happened. Retirement and medical benefits for employees who actually fix the manager screw ups have been cut way back while that slimeball McNerney gets his $300,000 a MONTH pension for creating these Max type problems.
 
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ER757
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:23 pm

acjbbj wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
My point is this: There is no such thing as "Too big to fail", and Boeing have every chance of going under. The only way (or at least one of the few ways) for the General Public to regain confidence in Boeing is for a brand rehash with new management or whatever. The damage is irreversible at least under the current management (or whoever decided that skimping out on the Max with the "cutting corners" was even remotely a good idea).


Boeing will be feeling the negative effects of Jim McNerney for a long time, while he is getting his 3.6 Million a year pension. He has done incredible damage.

Boeing deserves a lawsuit of at least $5 trillion. Yeah, put them in that much debt, let them go bust, let them be the biggest bankruptcy in the world, let a reputable company buy/reform BCA.

This is what happens when there are only two companies in an industry. Lack of innovation, lack of variety, and (IMO) outright laziness. And people are somehow okay with it.

At least MD-11's will be flying cargo for quite some time (and that at least one gets put up for display); really hoped A340's would be converted as well but seems like the A340's economics just don't work well for cargo...

This is something that (again, IMO) should also concern the risks of pushing automation.

And on a separate note: If the aviation industry really did the right thing by putting safety ahead of profits, we probably wouldn't see a move towards everything being two engines.

I sometimes wonder why I even come on this site any longer. Some of the tripe posted here is beyond silly. A $5 trillion lawsuit? Boeing being taken over by Lockheed? Please, just stop.
The OP tried to frame this discussion with some legitimate questions and then the thread quickly degenerates into lunacy like this.
Did Boeing screw the pooch on the Max? Oh yeah, no question. Even most Boeing fanboys (of which I am not a card carrying member) would cop to that. By all means let's have a real discussion about what the future holds for Boeing and avoid nonsensical hyperbolic drivel like the above.
My opinion (nothing more) is that they'll get the Max up and flying again, although I think it will no longer be called the Max. The CHS 787 plant story is a nothing burger IMO and expect little to come of it.
I think (and hope) some high level heads will roll at the executive office over the fiasco (767 tanker mess, Max grounding) and until such time as they are able to start delivering something other than 787's and end of the line 77W's their bottom line is going to be hurting. This is certain to affect their stock price at some point. Yes, its conceivable they could file for chapter 11 if it goes on long enough, but liquidation or takeover? Don't see it happening.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:01 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
With the incessant bashing of Boeing on a.net it must be ready to crater and declare bankruptcy at any time now.

I thought this was a forum on aviation not a sports betting site. Who is going to win the world cup type of stuff.

If the airlines thought there was any risk of the ordered planes not being delivered, there would be a huge rush of orders for Airbus.

But the orders this year show a typical year balance. Prior to PAS this year, both were almost at zero due to EY and Jet's problems.


Yes it is way out of hand. I enjoy flying on all aircraft types. But it has gotten to the point that if you dare take a position other than Boeing purposely building an unsafe plane to murder hundreds of people, you will get your head bitten off around here.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:07 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
With the incessant bashing of Boeing on a.net it must be ready to crater and declare bankruptcy at any time now.

I thought this was a forum on aviation not a sports betting site. Who is going to win the world cup type of stuff.

If the airlines thought there was any risk of the ordered planes not being delivered, there would be a huge rush of orders for Airbus.

But the orders this year show a typical year balance. Prior to PAS this year, both were almost at zero due to EY and Jet's problems.


Yes it is way out of hand. I enjoy flying on all aircraft types. But it has gotten to the point that if you dare take a position other than Boeing purposely building an unsafe plane to murder hundreds of people, you will get your head bitten off around here.


As I’ve pointed out so many times, there is so much misinformation posted on A.net about the MCAS scenario by people who have no idea what the are talking about. Apparently being factually correct is not a standard on A.net anymore.

I call a spade a spade. Yeah, a lot of the leadership has been inept and self-serving, but I’ve also never seen anyone knowingly or intentionally disregard safety.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:07 pm

acjbbj wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
acjbbj wrote:
My point is this: There is no such thing as "Too big to fail", and Boeing have every chance of going under. The only way (or at least one of the few ways) for the General Public to regain confidence in Boeing is for a brand rehash with new management or whatever. The damage is irreversible at least under the current management (or whoever decided that skimping out on the Max with the "cutting corners" was even remotely a good idea).


Boeing will be feeling the negative effects of Jim McNerney for a long time, while he is getting his 3.6 Million a year pension. He has done incredible damage.

Boeing deserves a lawsuit of at least $5 trillion. Yeah, put them in that much debt, let them go bust, let them be the biggest bankruptcy in the world, let a reputable company buy/reform BCA.

This is what happens when there are only two companies in an industry. Lack of innovation, lack of variety, and (IMO) outright laziness. And people are somehow okay with it.

At least MD-11's will be flying cargo for quite some time (and that at least one gets put up for display); really hoped A340's would be converted as well but seems like the A340's economics just don't work well for cargo...

This is something that (again, IMO) should also concern the risks of pushing automation.

And on a separate note: If the aviation industry really did the right thing by putting safety ahead of profits, we probably wouldn't see a move towards everything being two engines.


$5 trillion? Are you even trying to have any sort of meaningful discussion?
 
triple3driver
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:24 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
While I completely understand the reasons why Boeing is too big to fail, l feel that it is unfortunate thay they are too big to fail.

They are far too insulated from market realities and from the realities of their gigantic mistakes imho. They are a quasi government institution, not unlike when PanAm was considered an unofficial arm of the State Department. Like all those on government assistance, their dependence makes them weak. At a minimum, their stock should be under significant pressure right now, but it is not, alas cronyism in the boardrooms.

And oh BTW, I'm all for America first, but the taxpayers shouldnt be forced to subsidize ineptitude.


Agree on the ineptitude part. While I’ve often defended Boeing on A.net, I’m also disgusted with how poorly it’s been managed for the past 25 years. Decisions are made at all levels for someone’s personal agenda, not for the good of the company.

Ironically, I think Dennis is the best leader the company has had in a long time. He in fact has implemented a series of Boeing Behaviors that will reward you for making decisions that benefit the overall company, not your own budget and agenda.

All Jim McSlimeball and Harry cared about was lining their own pockets in the back last of the employees. Phil meant well but was unstable and incompetent in many ways.

MCAS was a terrible tragic blunder, but I’m not surprised it came to this given the bad leadership for so long.

However, the recently announced additional problem that is further delaying MAX return to service is pretty unfair. I won’t post the details on line, but basically it stemmed from one FAA pilot just deciding to make up a rule that doesn’t exist. Boeing elected not to fight it, although it’s BS. That supposed failure mode is no different from the NG.


I grew up in the 1970s and 80s, and while I was partial to the MD80, A300, and L1011 during that time period, Boeing was really the titan in pretty much every category, they dominated every segment that they entered and as someone who had the pleasure of flying some of their greatest hits, the 757 and 767, I can certainly understand why airlines and pilots loved them so much. Unfortunately, after MD bought Boeing with a loan from Boeing, well... they started off strong. The 7E7 looked promising, the most advanced airliner ever created designed to replace Boeing's best selling aircraft, the 767-300ER, while Airbus was struggling with the A380, which admittedly was, at the time, also a promising airliner. But, with all the issues that occurred during the program, it was worrying that, for the first time in Boeing's history, so many problems had occurred during this program. And it didn't stop after EIS, what with the battery issues and production quality. Now this. However, let's be realistic. Boeing is the US's largest exporter, and they will continue to be that for many years, until someone like Comac or Lockheed manages to overtake them, which I personally doubt. Also, I personally still feel like its beneficial to give Muilenburg the benefit of the doubt. His statements worry me and many others, and he's been with the company for a very long time, but he's only been CEO since 2015, so I think that his first true judgement will come with the NMA
I have no special talents, just a passion for flying
 
acjbbj
Posts: 298
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: The Future of Boeing

Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:47 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
$5 trillion? Are you even trying to have any sort of meaningful discussion?

And your point is... ?
Douglas Aircraft Company
Born: 22 July 1921 (Santa Monica, CA)
Died: 23 May 2006 (Long Beach, CA), age 84 years 10 months 1 day
You will be missed.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: The Future of Boeing

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:28 am

triple3driver wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
While I completely understand the reasons why Boeing is too big to fail, l feel that it is unfortunate thay they are too big to fail.

They are far too insulated from market realities and from the realities of their gigantic mistakes imho. They are a quasi government institution, not unlike when PanAm was considered an unofficial arm of the State Department. Like all those on government assistance, their dependence makes them weak. At a minimum, their stock should be under significant pressure right now, but it is not, alas cronyism in the boardrooms.

And oh BTW, I'm all for America first, but the taxpayers shouldnt be forced to subsidize ineptitude.


Agree on the ineptitude part. While I’ve often defended Boeing on A.net, I’m also disgusted with how poorly it’s been managed for the past 25 years. Decisions are made at all levels for someone’s personal agenda, not for the good of the company.

Ironically, I think Dennis is the best leader the company has had in a long time. He in fact has implemented a series of Boeing Behaviors that will reward you for making decisions that benefit the overall company, not your own budget and agenda.

All Jim McSlimeball and Harry cared about was lining their own pockets in the back last of the employees. Phil meant well but was unstable and incompetent in many ways.

MCAS was a terrible tragic blunder, but I’m not surprised it came to this given the bad leadership for so long.

However, the recently announced additional problem that is further delaying MAX return to service is pretty unfair. I won’t post the details on line, but basically it stemmed from one FAA pilot just deciding to make up a rule that doesn’t exist. Boeing elected not to fight it, although it’s BS. That supposed failure mode is no different from the NG.


I grew up in the 1970s and 80s, and while I was partial to the MD80, A300, and L1011 during that time period, Boeing was really the titan in pretty much every category, they dominated every segment that they entered and as someone who had the pleasure of flying some of their greatest hits, the 757 and 767, I can certainly understand why airlines and pilots loved them so much. Unfortunately, after MD bought Boeing with a loan from Boeing, well... they started off strong. The 7E7 looked promising, the most advanced airliner ever created designed to replace Boeing's best selling aircraft, the 767-300ER, while Airbus was struggling with the A380, which admittedly was, at the time, also a promising airliner. But, with all the issues that occurred during the program, it was worrying that, for the first time in Boeing's history, so many problems had occurred during this program. And it didn't stop after EIS, what with the battery issues and production quality. Now this. However, let's be realistic. Boeing is the US's largest exporter, and they will continue to be that for many years, until someone like Comac or Lockheed manages to overtake them, which I personally doubt. Also, I personally still feel like its beneficial to give Muilenburg the benefit of the doubt. His statements worry me and many others, and he's been with the company for a very long time, but he's only been CEO since 2015, so I think that his first true judgement will come with the NMA


Yes, they need to get the Max issues behind them quickly, no matter the expense. Satisfy what the FAA wants and get the planes back in the air in the US. There is little Boeing can do about the EASA and China. That will be political and for the FAA and current administration to sort out. I will say that the EASA and China should tread carefully. Any absurd demands will come back to bite them when one of their aircraft is seeking FAA approval.

And then get the NMA program launched ASAP. Boeing does not need to dwell over the Max. Put it behind them and move forward as quickly as possible.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: The Future of Boeing

Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:40 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
With the incessant bashing of Boeing on a.net it must be ready to crater and declare bankruptcy at any time now.

I thought this was a forum on aviation not a sports betting site. Who is going to win the world cup type of stuff.

If the airlines thought there was any risk of the ordered planes not being delivered, there would be a huge rush of orders for Airbus.

But the orders this year show a typical year balance. Prior to PAS this year, both were almost at zero due to EY and Jet's problems.


Yes it is way out of hand. I enjoy flying on all aircraft types. But it has gotten to the point that if you dare take a position other than Boeing purposely building an unsafe plane to murder hundreds of people, you will get your head bitten off around here.


As I’ve pointed out so many times, there is so much misinformation posted on A.net about the MCAS scenario by people who have no idea what the are talking about. Apparently being factually correct is not a standard on A.net anymore.

I call a spade a spade. Yeah, a lot of the leadership has been inept and self-serving, but I’ve also never seen anyone knowingly or intentionally disregard safety.


I appreciate the information and perspective you provide. I agree that management has made mistakes. I just might not agree on what those mistakes may be. They definitely went too far in outsourcing the 787 program. You just can't control the quality like you should when so much of it is in the hands of others. But I'm also not convinced of any nefarious activity going on in Charleston. To hear some people around here talk you would think Boeing had opened a portal to hell at that facility and were sacrificing puppies.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3147
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: The Future of Boeing

Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:39 am

acjbbj wrote:
Jesus Christ, some of you are like toilet plungers, bringing up old $hit...

SEU wrote:
IPersonally I feel the Boeing could actually go under... So can Boeing go under?

Absolutely. All of you are being like "BoEiNg ArE tOo BiG tO fAiL reeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" but what you clearly don't know or are refusing to admit is the mere fact that, surprise surprise:

There is NO such thing as "too big to fail!"
JUST ADMIT IT!


SEU wrote:
...and a new company comes out of it. Maybe Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics take over (acquire Boeing's entire commercial division plus their name and font). I just think the damage is irreversible.

Irreversible? 100% correct. Biggest lawsuit ever? Probably. Biggest bankruptcy ever, surpassing Lehman Brothers? There's a chance.

When Boeing's commercial division gets sold to Lockheed Martin then I hope Boeing's website will say something like "UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT"

Would like to see Boeing's military division become the new McDonnell-Douglas. Have half of the commercial airplane employees come over to the new MDC and help them start work on a New Mid-size Airplane in order to get them back into commercial aviation.

SEU wrote:
Will they focus on a 737 replacement straight away and can they afford to?
Will the MAX actually fly again (dont disregard this question, there is a possibility of it)?

The Max will fly again, as long as Lockheed straightens out Boeing and helps give the 737 Max a HARDWARE FIX (four angle of attack sensors, and reading data from all four at once. Something like this would probably be a must-have) BEFORE a software fix (re-doing MCAS from scratch may be necessary)

SEU wrote:
How many more bad practises will come out?

They will probably keep coming out until an brand refresh is done.


It’s the McDonnell Douglas management that got Boeing into this state—derivative designs like the MD-88, the MD-11, lack of engineering and investment drove MDD, now Boeing, into the ditch.

GF
 
acjbbj
Posts: 298
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: The Future of Boeing

Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:26 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s the McDonnell Douglas management that got Boeing into this state—derivative designs like the MD-88, the MD-11, lack of engineering and investment drove MDD, now Boeing, into the ditch.

GF

I was talking about a new McDonnell-Douglas (related to the old in the military division and commercial designs) based off Boeing's military division that would get back into commercial aviation (picking up on the New Midsize Airplane where Boeing left off), with existing commercial aircraft designers/engineers/etc. from the current Boeing, and new management/higher-level staff wherever needed (getting rid of whoever was responsible for this mess).

This has got to be the epitome of what can (and will?) happen if a certain industry has only two players. There isn't "only room for two players", and Douglas I could have turned themselves around if they gone through restructuring instead of getting bought by Boeing. WE NEED A THIRD PLAYER IN COMMERCIAL AVIATION. We need more competition, more innovation, and more variety. Aviation is getting extremely boring and generic.
Douglas Aircraft Company
Born: 22 July 1921 (Santa Monica, CA)
Died: 23 May 2006 (Long Beach, CA), age 84 years 10 months 1 day
You will be missed.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1167
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: The Future of Boeing

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:59 am

Boeing isn't going under. And the Max (or whatever they rename it) will fly again.

But a hypothetical forever grounding of the Max would be an interesting scenario. There are no engines that would make a brand new narrow body design worthwhile. Both Boeing and Airbus have said so. There probably won't be until around 2030. So that would be out of the question for getting a narrow body Boeing back into play.

This is what I would propose in such a scenario. The E190-E2 and a 757neo. Yes, I realize the tooling for the 757 is gone and there is no supply network. But Boeing already knows how to build a 757 and I'm sure they could find some weight savings and other improvements. But restarting the 757 line from scratch would be about their only option. The taller landing gear of the 757 would provide ample room for a LEAP or PW GTF. The E2 would cover the lower and the 757neo would cover the higher end.

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