UA857
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Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:06 pm

When I was watching Flight Sim videos of Fictional United and Delta 747-8 on YouTube. I began to wonder why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8I. I mean a Delta or United 747-8 would be great.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:11 pm

Because, on the few routes that need more capacity than a 777-200ER/LR, the 777-300ER can carry basically the same passenger load as a 744, with less fuel burn, more range, commonality with the 777-200 and a host of other reasons.

And ETOPS is basically a non-starter for US airlines now.

So why would they order the 748i?
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:32 pm

Also consider that no US airline ordered the A380. They simply don't have the need for anything larger than a 777-300 or A350-1000, the latter of which United had on order but later converted to the -900. In general, large twins are now able to match the performance of the large quads and the very large aircraft segment has pretty limited demand as airlines and passengers tend to favor either more frequencies or direct services to smaller cities, both of which drive a preference towards smaller aircraft. Airbus seemingly locked up demand for the segment with the earlier launch of the A380 (two of the three 747-8i customers were also A380 customers, KE and LH); the 747-8f (freighter) sold a bit better, and I suspect benefited from Airbus cancelling the A380 freighter.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:41 pm

Keep in mind, UA and DL nee NW originally ordered their 744s for the range on their pacific routes, because nothing else had the range. Nowadays, most modern widebody twins can match and exceed that range so there is no longer a need for the 744 or 748 because of its range.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:42 pm

For DL: as was once said a long time ago, they don't like big planes.

For UA: the B748 has a larger wingspan than the B744, which (outside of the Olympics) never visited EWR, and many of the UA B77W routes were B77E upgauges before the arrival of the B78X...and also, the B748 is much heavier than the B744, while the B77W is slightly lighter and a better belly cargo hauler.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:47 pm

The 748 is among the most beautiful airplanes ever made, sadly by the time it was made twins were flying many routes the 744 was flying. The 748 didn't carry more people or have more range than a 777-300ER, so the 777 won all the orders. As far as competition from the A380, the Airbus was new and impressive so Singapore, Qantas and the rest all ordered the whale jet. Hopefully LH will keep the 748 flying until 2030.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:56 pm

jfk777 wrote:
The 748 is among the most beautiful airplanes ever made, sadly by the time it was made twins were flying many routes the 744 was flying. The 748 didn't carry more people or have more range than a 777-300ER, so the 777 won all the orders. As far as competition from the A380, the Airbus was new and impressive so Singapore, Qantas and the rest all ordered the whale jet. Hopefully LH will keep the 748 flying until 2030.



Pretty sure the 748 can carry more passengers than a 77W
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:01 pm

UA857 wrote:
When I was watching Flight Sim videos of Fictional United and Delta 747-8 on YouTube. I began to wonder why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8I. I mean a Delta or United 747-8 would be great.


Let's flip it around. Why would DL or UA have ordered the 748? I see no business case, which I think answers your question.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:11 pm

Delta, I would have never expected them to order the 748, because the 747 was never a suitable aircraft for them. Northwest maybe, if they had stayed alive, but Delta...no. Delta decided a long time ago their widebody fleet would consist only of twins upon the retirement of the last MD-11 and last L-1011, merging with Northwest doesn't count. Delta would have never flown the 744 if they didn't merge with Northwest, that's for sure.

United, they were a more likely candidate for the 748 because they have always relied on the 747 for intercontinental long haul missions and ever since they bought Pan Am's TPAC routes in the mid 80s, they kept on being a strong player in the Pacific Rim and yes they still are, but on the other hand they were the launch customer of the 777 already in the early 90s when the 777 was still under study, and it turned out eventually with the launch of the 200ER that the 777 would suit them better on a lot of long haul routes, so it is not a surprise either that United stayed distant from the 748 when Boeing launched it.
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:19 pm

I remember being at ORD a few years ago and as I watched several UA 744's taxi past I thought sure they'd have to order the 748 some day. I still have a hard time thinking of UA without 747's in their fleet. Having grown up in the shadow of ORD and having worked there in adulthood, UA 747's were just a given - they'd always be around. But alas, economics 101 beats sentiment and so the 747 is now part of UA's past. I completely understand it from a business point of view, but it's sad to me nonetheless
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:21 pm

Max Q wrote:
Pretty sure the 748 can carry more passengers than a 77W

The exit limit difference is roughly 50 pax, so they're pretty close, all things considered. It's the extra two engines that don't make those 50 seats worth it, though.

UA857 wrote:
When I was watching Flight Sim videos of Fictional United and Delta 747-8 on YouTube. I began to wonder why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8I. I mean a Delta or United 747-8 would be great.

One thing you have to consider is that the 748 launch wasn't exactly great timing. The first flight was around 2011 and went into service the following year, but that wasn't a great time for the industry. The number of planes parked in the desert around 2008-2010 was pretty immense. They were ordering new aircraft, but they were being extremely cautious with their orders. Even with the efficiencies gained on the 748 vs 744, that still wasn't enough, and given the newfound militancy on capacity constraints, they weren't about to add a 400+ seat aircraft to the fleet. AA opted for the 77W, UA opted for the 77W several years later, and DL opted for neither. Even if the 748 launched prior to the 2008 financial crisis, I don't know that it would have made much difference -- even then, none of the legacies were in the mood for superjumbos. Obviously they never took the bait with the A380.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:25 pm

I would say a combination of factors:
-The 747-8i came out after UA already had a substantial 777-200ER fleet, orders for the Dreamliner and 777-300ER, and plans to retire the 747-400
-As mentioned earlier, Delta thrives on versatility and didn't want a small fleet of VLAs
-Then where are the obvious parts about the 748i's size/span, restrictions/special needs at certain airports, and fuel burn, etc relative to the 777-300ER, which really is the 747 killer

Unfortunately the Intercontinental Queen was a few years too late
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:30 pm

Because unfortunately the 777-300ER killed all the hope for the success of a new 747 variant. The 747-8, in this case.
If the 300ER didn't exist, I bet the 747-8 would have been a better seller. Maybe not so much, but definitely more airlines would operate it.
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:37 pm

Money
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:51 pm

So, on the other side of the question...if the 77W and/or A350-1000 can essentially handle the same number of passengers and have better range for less money, then why have airlines bought the 748?
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:53 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
Because, on the few routes that need more capacity than a 777-200ER/LR, the 777-300ER can carry basically the same passenger load as a 744, with less fuel burn, more range, commonality with the 777-200 and a host of other reasons.

And ETOPS is basically a non-starter for US airlines now.

So why would they order the 748i?


Exactly. And don’t build a church for Easter Sunday. On the handful of routes that could actually meet the demand requirements, the fewer seats and high quality of the A350 gives DL pricing/margin power.
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:15 am

Because they didn't want to.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:34 am

AA77W wrote:
So, on the other side of the question...if the 77W and/or A350-1000 can essentially handle the same number of passengers and have better range for less money, then why have airlines bought the 748?



LH always wanted a larger 747 and they have large premium cabins while the 748 allows them to carry a good number of Y. Also Brought the A380 for highest capacity routes.

KE probably more Political, I think they make some of the parts? The 748 has more Y, Also have A380 with large J cabin.

CA again probably more political, surprised they didn’t get the A380, decided the 748 fitted their needs well enough for highest capacity routes.

There were others TG/MH/OZ where a 748 would have been a better fit than the A380, but more likely a 77W would have sufficed as their largest aircraft.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:40 am

It wasn't a narrowbody.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:12 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
For DL: as was once said a long time ago, they don't like big planes.

For UA: the B748 has a larger wingspan than the B744, which (outside of the Olympics) never visited EWR, and many of the UA B77W routes were B77E upgauges before the arrival of the B78X...and also, the B748 is much heavier than the B744, while the B77W is slightly lighter and a better belly cargo hauler.

I am almost 100% sure that Lufthansa flew 748s into EWR at one point
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:17 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
For DL: as was once said a long time ago, they don't like big planes.


The irony is that as soon as DL could repaint the NW 744s, the 744 become DL's poster child in print and digital media.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:26 am

UA857 wrote:
When I was watching Flight Sim videos of Fictional United and Delta 747-8 on YouTube. I began to wonder why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8I. I mean a Delta or United 747-8 would be great.


Let's be clear -- United's 747 fleet lasted beyond its bankruptcy only because the creditors played hardball on 777 fleet negotiations. The Boeing 748s would be going from frying pan into the fire.
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:26 am

Max Q wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
The 748 is among the most beautiful airplanes ever made, sadly by the time it was made twins were flying many routes the 744 was flying. The 748 didn't carry more people or have more range than a 777-300ER, so the 777 won all the orders. As far as competition from the A380, the Airbus was new and impressive so Singapore, Qantas and the rest all ordered the whale jet. Hopefully LH will keep the 748 flying until 2030.



Pretty sure the 748 can carry more passengers than a 77W


Many operators are happy if they can fill a 77W for a flight, the 748 is bigger but many airlines didn't see the need for the extra seats. There are 77W with 398 economy seats, Air Canada has a 77W with 28 J and 398 Y seats. Would like a seat on Air Canada ?
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:27 am

UA857 wrote:
I mean a Delta or United 747-8 would be great.


Great for losing money...
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:49 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
AA77W wrote:
So, on the other side of the question...if the 77W and/or A350-1000 can essentially handle the same number of passengers and have better range for less money, then why have airlines bought the 748?


CA again probably more political, surprised they didn’t get the A380, decided the 748 fitted their needs well enough for highest capacity routes.


I've always thought this was probably the case. CA's airplanes are sometimes used as state transports, and they already operated the - 400.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:29 am

speedbird52 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
For DL: as was once said a long time ago, they don't like big planes.

For UA: the B748 has a larger wingspan than the B744, which (outside of the Olympics) never visited EWR, and many of the UA B77W routes were B77E upgauges before the arrival of the B78X...and also, the B748 is much heavier than the B744, while the B77W is slightly lighter and a better belly cargo hauler.

I am almost 100% sure that Lufthansa flew 748s into EWR at one point


At one point as in today - in that they still do.

LH's FRA-EWR flight is on a B748i
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:26 am

One argument I haven’t seen here that’s not about pax capacity or range is the trend for frequency, i.e., three flight per day ABC-XYZ vs one flight. Correct me if I’m incorrect.

It’s interesting that DL doesn’t have a need for the 77W like AA and UA. Their 777’s are configured 3-3-3 in Y not for pax comfort (sshhhh) but because they do not need the capacity (gasp). The 748 would be way too much plane.

I am curious if the 748 is a better option for an airline that needs a high premium pax configuration or if the 77W would work just as well.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:41 am

AA77W wrote:
So, on the other side of the question...if the 77W and/or A350-1000 can essentially handle the same number of passengers and have better range for less money, then why have airlines bought the 748?


In the case of LH, I think they were hedging their bets on the A380 and sure enough, it looks like the 748 will probably be around longer than the A380 with them.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:12 am

It would have been nice to see a 748i in the new United livery. Curious on how UA would outfitted the plane with the new Polaris J seat, PE...... that would have been a premium heavy layout IMO
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:38 am

catiii wrote:
Great for losing money...

Not on the most profitable routes.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:02 am

How many more of these threads are you going to start?
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:56 am

KFTG wrote:
How many more of these threads are you going to start?


The possibilities are virtually endless!

Why didn't (insert airline) order the (insert airplane).
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:34 am

UA857 wrote:
When I was watching Flight Sim videos of Fictional United and Delta 747-8 on YouTube. I began to wonder why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8I. I mean a Delta or United 747-8 would be great.


Not another one of these :?

There's a search function on the forum. This will answer almost all of these repetitive questions you keep asking.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:19 pm

Not only extra engines... Extra tires
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:46 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
For DL: as was once said a long time ago, they don't like big planes.

For UA: the B748 has a larger wingspan than the B744, which (outside of the Olympics) never visited EWR, and many of the UA B77W routes were B77E upgauges before the arrival of the B78X...and also, the B748 is much heavier than the B744, while the B77W is slightly lighter and a better belly cargo hauler.

I am almost 100% sure that Lufthansa flew 748s into EWR at one point


At one point as in today - in that they still do.

LH's FRA-EWR flight is on a B748i


And they were the only airline to order the B748 on a purely business case...high J count but where not all the Y is needed.
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:33 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
dmstorm22 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
I am almost 100% sure that Lufthansa flew 748s into EWR at one point


At one point as in today - in that they still do.

LH's FRA-EWR flight is on a B748i


And they were the only airline to order the B748 on a purely business case...high J count but where not all the Y is needed.

Real shame BA never ordered the 748 as it seems to me to be the perfect plane for them.
 
catiii
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:40 pm

UA857 wrote:
catiii wrote:
Great for losing money...

Not on the most profitable routes.


And which routes would those be? And please, be specific. Which routes require that much capacity that aren’t already served by the existing fleet.
 
UA857
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:25 am

catiii wrote:
UA857 wrote:
catiii wrote:
Great for losing money...

Not on the most profitable routes.


And which routes would those be? And please, be specific. Which routes require that much capacity that aren’t already served by the existing fleet.


NYC-TYO/LHR/SFO/LAX, LAX-NRT/SYD/HNL, SFO-NRT/SEL/PEK/PVG/HKG/HNL, ORD-NRT/PEK/PVG/HKG/HNL, DTW-NRT/SEL/PEK/PVG and HNL-NRT
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:49 am

UA857 wrote:
catiii wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Not on the most profitable routes.


And which routes would those be? And please, be specific. Which routes require that much capacity that aren’t already served by the existing fleet.


NYC-TYO/LHR/SFO/LAX, LAX-NRT/SYD/HNL, SFO-NRT/SEL/PEK/PVG/HKG/HNL, ORD-NRT/PEK/PVG/HKG/HNL, DTW-NRT/SEL/PEK/PVG and HNL-NRT


Again, what isn’t the existing fleet doing that isn’t meeting demand? You’re just throwing routes out with no data to back it up. You think NYCSFO and NYCLAX would be profitable on a 748? Based on what?
 
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:53 am

Here we go again, another one of those "WhY dIdN't ________ OrDeR tHe ________?"
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:16 am

UA857 wrote:
catiii wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Not on the most profitable routes.


And which routes would those be? And please, be specific. Which routes require that much capacity that aren’t already served by the existing fleet.


NYC-TYO/LHR/SFO/LAX, LAX-NRT/SYD/HNL, SFO-NRT/SEL/PEK/PVG/HKG/HNL, ORD-NRT/PEK/PVG/HKG/HNL, DTW-NRT/SEL/PEK/PVG and HNL-NRT


Based on what? What's wrong with the current fleet? and you do realise that "full plane" doesn't equal profit?

And here's a couple of questions for you
Why do you ask so many questions?
Why didn't you ask why AA didn't order the A380?
Do you think Delta will order the B767-500 HGW MAX that's being proposed by Boeing? and will other airlines order the B767-500 HGW MAX?
 
Flanker7
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Re: Why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8?

Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:00 pm

UA857 wrote:
When I was watching Flight Sim videos of Fictional United and Delta 747-8 on YouTube. I began to wonder why didn’t Delta or United order the 747-8I. I mean a Delta or United 747-8 would be great.

My take on this....call both airlines and ask them. Problem solved.
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