twaconnie
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Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:03 pm

Just thinking with only two major manufactures is there room for a third? Down the road I see a big market for replacement aircraft.Looking for opinions.
Last edited by qf789 on Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed allcaps
 
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TWA302
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:05 pm

Nope. They are doing fine in the defense and space areas. Even though my favorite airliner was the L-1011.
 
panam330
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:06 pm

WHAT'S WITH THE ALL CAPS TITLE?! ;)

In all seriousness, no, they shouldn't. They got out of the game because it wasn't profitable enough. As we've seen lately, the supply chain is already stretched quite thin between the big 2, Embraer, what's left of BBD and various smaller manufacturers. It would be an incredibly expensive, uphill battle against two giants - one that they likely wouldn't win.
 
T4thH
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:19 pm

No. They can produce and deliver parts for the other comercial aircraft producers, but else just: No.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:27 pm

 
Jetsouth
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:29 pm

Well, they are getting back into commercial production with the LM-100J, currently in development.
 
Utah744
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:35 pm

They could make a twin engine L-1011 and call it the TriStar-Max.
You are never too old to learn something stupid
 
WayexTDI
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:38 pm

Utah744 wrote:
They could make a twin engine L-1011 and call it the TriStar-Max.

Well, supposedly, in the late 90's/early 2000's, DL was studying re-engining the 727 with only 2 engines. That would have been interesting.
 
Checklist787
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:45 pm

twaconnie wrote:
Just thinking with only two major manufactures is there room for a third? Down the road I see a big market for replacement aircraft.Looking for opinions.


Fully agree!

The market is huuuuuuge!

And Lockheed has built a remarkable aircraft, the L1011 Tristar
 
stephanwintner
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:47 pm

I can't imagine it, excepting niche products like the L100.

I think Lockheed's L1011 experience and Douglas' slow decline show a need to have several products at different market segments. Clearly, until they'd developed 3 or 4 products, Lockheed wouldn't have that. That's a heck of a long term project.

Absent that, momentum and size to develop new products is really hard to find (e.g. C-series). And while LM's government business could provide that heft, I think it would be very hard to justify investing in a commercial business sector if that sector, on its own, is underperforming financially.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:01 pm

HELL NO. Sponging off the government is far more lucrative.
Finally headed to DORKFEST! Sept 7, STL-LAX-PHX-STL. :cloudnine:
 
MIflyer12
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:12 pm

Should I buy music on 8-track tape? Should my next car be a Ford Pinto? Should I call my admin assistant 'my girl?' That's the era of Lockheed's passenger aviation business. It's a real stretch to convince shareholders they ought to sit by while Lockheed drops $20 Billion into re-establishing a commercial business that may have yields in 15+ years time.
 
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m0ssy
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:18 pm

Forgive my ignorance, are there any L1011's still flying? If so, where? Thanks! :wave:
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Bricktop
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:19 pm

Sure, if they want to burn billions of dollars. Anyone making that suggestion would be making a career-ending blunder.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:59 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Utah744 wrote:
They could make a twin engine L-1011 and call it the TriStar-Max.

Well, supposedly, in the late 90's/early 2000's, DL was studying re-engining the 727 with only 2 engines. That would have been interesting.


Wouldn't that have been prohibitively expensive? It's basically a brand new plane. You would have to have a new vertical stabilizer, reroute fuel lines, replace flight deck instrumentation/controls. All for an already very old airframe. I could have maybe seen a viable program for eliminating the flight engineer and putting in the partial glass cockpit of the 733/734/735 around 1990 when there was still a lot of life left in them.
 
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Seabear
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:08 am

Sure, L-1049NEOMAX!
 
FLALEFTY
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:12 am

Lockheed is a great company, I worked for them for many enjoyable years. The possibility of Lockheed-Martin organically re-entering the commercial airliner market is nil. The commercial operations were shuttered decades ago.

That said, If Boeing's MAX fiasco burns through their cash reserves and starts heading them towards the bankruptcy court, it is a remote possibility that (with the ecouragement of the US government) LM may be asked to buy out Boeing "in the interest of national security".
 
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SEPilot
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:47 am

It would be prohibitively expensive for any company to enter the commercial airliner business at this point. If you figure that the 787 cost Boeing around $25 billion to get to market, it would probably cost a newcomer about twice that to get a new airliner flying. And then they would have to sell it without an established reputation and support it worldwide. And whatever they produce will have to be at least as good as what Boeing and Airbus are offering. Coming close won’t cut it. And it must be priced lower in order to have any appeal. Lockheed’s experience with the L-1011 carries no weight today. Ain’t gonna happen.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Ozair
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:59 am

IMO the way back for LM into Commercial aviation wouldn’t be directly competing with Boeing and Airbus but going for an emerging market segment. Why not work on something that leverages their work on hypersonics, and look to supersonic passenger jets. Seems a niche area they could potentially dominate in, especially if they acquired one of the companies now doing this work to leverage their way into the market. They are also doing the X-59 QueSST work for NASA.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:11 am

Even a small niche have a rough competition now. But first question is what about support net.

Pls no more caps
 
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aerolimani
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:14 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Utah744 wrote:
They could make a twin engine L-1011 and call it the TriStar-Max.

Well, supposedly, in the late 90's/early 2000's, DL was studying re-engining the 727 with only 2 engines. That would have been interesting.


Wouldn't that have been prohibitively expensive? It's basically a brand new plane. You would have to have a new vertical stabilizer, reroute fuel lines, replace flight deck instrumentation/controls. All for an already very old airframe. I could have maybe seen a viable program for eliminating the flight engineer and putting in the partial glass cockpit of the 733/734/735 around 1990 when there was still a lot of life left in them.

It sounds like you're thinking of moving the engines under the wings, with your suggestion of rerouting fuel lines. I'm pretty sure they'd just eliminate the center engine, and put more powerful engines in place of the other two. Obviously, that's understating the complexity of it, but the fact it never went ahead is probably evidence enough that it wasn't a great idea.

stephanwintner wrote:
I can't imagine it, excepting niche products like the L100.

I think Lockheed's L1011 experience and Douglas' slow decline show a need to have several products at different market segments. Clearly, until they'd developed 3 or 4 products, Lockheed wouldn't have that. That's a heck of a long term project.

Absent that, momentum and size to develop new products is really hard to find (e.g. C-series). And while LM's government business could provide that heft, I think it would be very hard to justify investing in a commercial business sector if that sector, on its own, is underperforming financially.

For 15 years, Airbus had only the A300/310, before they launched the A320.
 
Armadillo1
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:15 am

And yes, they dreams about C-5 replacement, funny but no changes from my point of view
 
Armadillo1
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:17 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Utah744 wrote:
They could make a twin engine L-1011 and call it the TriStar-Max.

Well, supposedly, in the late 90's/early 2000's, DL was studying re-engining the 727 with only 2 engines. That would have been interesting.

Wow. Any links about this?

Actually, russian even refit one Yak-40 to 2 honeywell
 
Armadillo1
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:23 am

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1399525

Previous topic, must be every year issue
 
crjflyboy
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:25 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
Even a small niche have a rough competition now. But first question is what about support net.

Pls no more caps


They would have to manufacture something nobody else is … maybe a 19 pax regional jet with 2 Williams FJ 44 - 4's.

http://www.williams-int.com/products/ai ... 4-4-engine

As far as taking on Boeing, Airbus … no way … will never happen again even though I Ioved the 1011.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:40 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Utah744 wrote:
They could make a twin engine L-1011 and call it the TriStar-Max.

Well, supposedly, in the late 90's/early 2000's, DL was studying re-engining the 727 with only 2 engines. That would have been interesting.


It was actually much earlier in 1981 ... American was involved in it as well

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/11/27/busi ... worry.html
 
Armadillo1
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:46 am

crjflyboy wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Utah744 wrote:
They could make a twin engine L-1011 and call it the TriStar-Max.

Well, supposedly, in the late 90's/early 2000's, DL was studying re-engining the 727 with only 2 engines. That would have been interesting.


It was actually much earlier in 1981 ... American was involved in it as well

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/11/27/busi ... worry.html

Thank you. It was really toooo costly - about 50% of new plane.
 
crjflyboy
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:50 am

Armadillo1 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Utah744 wrote:
They could make a twin engine L-1011 and call it the TriStar-Max.

Well, supposedly, in the late 90's/early 2000's, DL was studying re-engining the 727 with only 2 engines. That would have been interesting.

Wow. Any links about this?

Actually, russian even refit one Yak-40 to 2 honeywell


Interesting article on the YAK - 40 ... those engines made a huge difference in performance.

http://www.rusaviainsider.com/insight-y ... n-engines/
 
acjbbj
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:48 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
That said, If Boeing's MAX fiasco burns through their cash reserves...

Which has every chance of happening. Finally, someone's being realistic since they appear to acknowledge that the notion of "too big to fail" does not exist.
FLALEFTY wrote:
...and starts heading them towards the bankruptcy court, it is a remote possibility that (with the encouragement of the US government) LM may be asked to buy out Boeing "in the interest of national security".

As I've said numerous times, Lockheed should buy Boeing's name, font, and all of the commercial side. Have half of the BCA guys go to what's left of the military division, that division be renamed to McDonnell-Douglas Corporation, and have those half of the ex-Boeing guys (at the new MDC) work on a New MidSize Airplane, picking up where Boeing left off.
If the new McDonnell-Douglas can get the NMA right, then we're back on track towards a safer, healthier, and much more stable aviation industry.
The 737 Max fiasco (in my eyes, at least) shows that people expect Boeing (and Airbus as well) to do everything perfectly even with "no" competition.
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stasisLAX
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:53 am

[url][/url]Only if Lockheed was providing the world with supersonic commercial airplanes, then yes. I am a huge fan of the L1011 TriStar and the Constellation. :bouncy:
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
acjbbj
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:14 am

stasisLAX wrote:
[url][/url]Only if Lockheed was providing the world with supersonic commercial airplanes, then yes. I am a huge fan of the L1011 TriStar and the Constellation. :bouncy:

Would love to see a Lockheed TriStar Next Generation as a corporate/executive jet!
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sonicruiser
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:24 am

stasisLAX wrote:
Only if Lockheed was providing the world with supersonic commercial airplanes, then yes.


This is actually a very interesting point you make. Lockheed doesn't have many advantages on perfecting (conventional) commercial aircraft design as compared to the established Boeing and Airbus duopoly but a supersonic aircraft is a completely different ballgame as one of the few areas where Lockheed arguably has more experience than Boeing and Airbus combined multiple times with a major and decisive advantage over their main competitors should they consider it, and that could be just what they need to get back into the game.

Boeing and Airbus have virtually zero supersonic experience next to Lockheed which practically specializes exclusively in it, nevermind that they're already knee deep in hypersonics as supersonic design is their "normal" work. Considering what kind of research Lockheed would have inevitably gained from testing all their new hypersonic SR-72/black projects out in Nevada lately, to say they're ahead of the curve in this area is a massive understatement. They would easily blow the doors off Boeing or Airbus in any kind of supersonic commercial application with the trove of classified research that they probably have.

I think you might be onto something big here.
 
Pcoder
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:22 am

When Lockheed left the commercial aviation space in the mid 80s, numerous valid reasons for leaving, including they had a similar plane in the DC-10 to complete against, the A300 and 767 were showing the future with twin jets and the investment need to bring the L-1011 up to a competitive level was too great for a total widebody market that was a lot smaller than today.

Fast forward to now you have a company that is probably a bit too focused on the defence industry and with huge demands on the narrow body sector, I see a great opportunity for a new entrant.

Now this void could be filled by the state companies of Russia and China, but as they are state enterprises, they're less like to be able to produce the most optimal aircraft due to internal politics that tend to be involved with companies like these. They will still get plenty of orders but mostly from local airlines.

The reason why people do bring up Lockheed is that they still have a very large aerospace capacity and the L-1011 was a quality machine. Although I don't see them returning as a perfect opportunity was the c-series program, which although strapped for cash, was perfectly set up to get a good market segment and be a good starting point to re enter the consumer market.
 
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RetiredNWA
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:29 am

Mods?

Do a search. This is another “ad nauseam” discussion. Pointless.

The L1011 was an exceptional aircraft. As was the Jetstar, the Electra, the U2, the P3 Orion and the various versions of the Electra. The Connie was also a great airplane.

Lockheed isn’t making “airliners” and that’s that. Bloomberg, CNN, Fox News, Google and Wikipedia are your friends.

Lockheed has been out of the commercial aircraft business for decades. Three-plus decades. This is pointless.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:34 am

Frankly, I don’t think they would be crazy enough to attempt it.

The risks are high, as the development costs would be just as large to get anything competitive developed and built.

The next major airspace company will come from China. It’s just a matter of time really that COMAC can get to a scale that it will compete. It has a captive audience already of significant scale, given the government control in many decision making processes there.

Russia just doesn’t have the market scale that China does, making it an uphill battle to make such investments work. It keeps producing aircraft, but achieving a significant level of success is a huge challenge.

We have largely seen Canada and Brazil exit the game as independent players, so some diversification would be good, but the appetite would be low in most cases.
 
rigo
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:22 am

Checklist787 wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
Just thinking with only two major manufactures is there room for a third? Down the road I see a big market for replacement aircraft.Looking for opinions.


Fully agree!

The market is huuuuuuge!

And Lockheed has built a remarkable aircraft, the L1011 Tristar


Lockheed has built more remarkable aircraft, notably the Constellation. As for the Tristar, great as it was for its time, it was still a commercial failure and an economic disaster. Having said that, as an enthusiast I would certainly love to see more competition and a greater variety in the sky than just A and B. And if the likes of UAC and COMAC think they can crack the market, why couldn't Lockheed?
 
yabeweb
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:28 am

With all this Boeing issue, one has to wonder, if Boeing was to fall down, LM could buy out the commercial division and rebrand, that means as Trump suggested you'd have a L738 (instead of B 737-8 Max).

It's a win win, Boeing keep the military division, America keeps their dominand manufacturer and people feel safer cause...hey it's another aircraft after all, from a new manufacturer.

One can dream :D
 
rigo
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:53 am

yabeweb wrote:
With all this Boeing issue, one has to wonder, if Boeing was to fall down, LM could buy out the commercial division and rebrand, that means as Trump suggested you'd have a L738 (instead of B 737-8 Max).

It's a win win, Boeing keep the military division, America keeps their dominand manufacturer and people feel safer cause...hey it's another aircraft after all, from a new manufacturer.

One can dream :D


Or Boeing could simply rebrand the Max as the DC-737. No-one would worry about its safety because what do you expect? It's a DC... Meanwhile the Boeing brand would be safe and untarnished.
 
dampfnudel
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:02 am

Not if they’re smart.
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RalXWB
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:31 am

A 727 with 2 engines already exists...it is called 737.
 
CrazyPants
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:05 am

Utah744 wrote:
They could make a twin engine L-1011 and call it the TriStar-Max.


DiStar-Max.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:22 am

Was the TriStar fiasco entirely behind Lockheed's exit from commercial aircraft production or where they headed that way anyway ? Was it a final straw kind of thing ?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:47 am

Lockheed Martin would be completely uncompetitive on the commercial market. They have grown fat, inept and lazy by milking governments. Everything they do is delayed and over budget. Airlines, unlike governments, wouldn't stand such ineptitude. Unlike what Lockheed Martin usually does, the customers are not going to fund airliners up front. Airlines pay upon receiving the aircraft.
That mentality is why McDonnell Douglas ultimately failed. The McDonnell management was not interested in investing anything into commercial aircraft, when they could just lean back and have the government bankroll entire military projects with minimal own-investment. The same mentality unfortunately passed on to Boeing, where both the 747-8, 787, 737MAX and 777X bear signs of it. They all at one point or another suffered from Boeing not investing enough into them. I just don't see Lockheed Martin doing any better, considering how much more bloated they have become.

If I was to suggest a new manufacturer to take over from where Boeing might fail, I would suggest Textron. They know how to build aircraft on a competitive basis. They would have to take over Boeings commercial aircraft assets, the best of them at least.
Other possible contenders could be de Havilland Canada or large subcontractors like Spirit Aerosystems or United Technologies.
 
bhxalex
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:00 am

We have this asked several times a year it seems, please use the search function!
 
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keesje
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:18 am

They could have bought the CSeries but didn't..

They would have to buy in, they have a few FAA TC's, but the existing civil infrastructure is a bit rusty..

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Last edited by keesje on Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dutchy
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Re: SHOULD LOCKHEED GET BACK INTO COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:25 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
HELL NO. Sponging off the government is far more lucrative.


This, why would you risk billions into a field where you could potentially bankrupt your business?

If there is going to be a serious 3rd contender, it will come form China, they have the resources, the money and the political will to bring a truly competitor to Boeing and Airbus to the marked, they are not there yet, but still.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
twaconnie
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:04 pm

Thanks everyone reading all the reply's was interesting and fun.And the conclusion is stay away from commercial aircraft.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:22 am

Why does everyone assume that Lockheed need to build an Airbus/Boeing competitor to jump back into the commercial scene?

Why not supersonic commercial jets - they are already building the X-59 Low Sonic Boom demonstrator for NASA.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
tmu101
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:17 am

I wish when Boeing and McDonald Douglas merged that the McD commercial division was required to be sold and LM Aero could have snatched it up. I think Boeing with McD's defense division and LM Aero with the McD's commercial division could have made both companies even more competitive with one another in all aspects of the aerospace industry.
 
acjbbj
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Re: Should Lockheed get back into commerical aircraft?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:37 pm

tmu101 wrote:
I wish when Boeing and McDonald Douglas merged that the McD commercial division was required to be sold and LM Aero could have snatched it up. I think Boeing with McD's defense division and LM Aero with the McD's commercial division could have made both companies even more competitive with one another in all aspects of the aerospace industry.

Similar to what I was thinking. Should have sold off Douglas to Lockheed and done a re-structuring to Make Douglas Great Again.

And that's why my signature is what it is.
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Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos